JL - I just want thank you for your continued support and help, I have learnt and grown so much.

Husband came home, he walked round the back of the house with the note in his hand, he looked distraught, he sat in the garden for ages and then he must have found a spare key and came in. He came into my room and said come on, don't do this, this is silly. I said to him I have nothing to say, he said what is that supposed to mean? I repeated it again, he then said come on let's talk, I said there is nothing to talk about. He grabbed my arm and I asked him not to touch me, I didn't know where he had been. He said that he hadn't done anything.

I then left the house now I am going to go for a drive and decide what I do now.

He needs to leave the house not YOU! You should have stayed your ground, and kept repeating "leave this house"

Hello Hitch

I recovered my marriage through MB with Mrs.Flint and so can you...

My story is in my signature line.

You have been getting some very good advice.

Your requirement of respect for you and your marriage is where you start and the first thing that you should ask your WH is if he is willing to agree to that or you can hand him his bag and car keys.

There have been no consequences for his behavior previously and you now have his attention because you have told him that there WILL now be consequences...

Allowing him to continue his behavior will either get you divorced, crazy or an STD...

IF he says yes to respecting you and the M then he must BACK IT UP by agreeing to counsel with the Harleys AND the MB program.

Let him know that you love him and that your M can be even better than it was before through learning MB concepts together on how to fall in love and stay in love.

He must identify WHO the affair(s) were with.

He must also END the affairs by writing NC letter(s) and expose to whomever is required.

Agree to transparency i.e. phone, email, trade phones whenever EITHER of you request it.

NO MORE INDEPENDENT BEHAVIOR BY EITHER OF YOU.

You can and must enforce your boundaries.

We teach people how to treat us.

Your H just showed you he is listening NOW because you stood up to him with a boundary.

Now is the time to talk to him while he is listening.

If he stops listening enforce your boundaries.

HE MUST RESPECT YOU OR YOU WILL LOSE YOUR MARRIAGE.

Guaranteed.

God bless.

Jim

Thanks Jim, it is nice that JL has got a break from me:)

Yes I agree, I can't go on any longer with my H disrespecting me. I really don't know this person my H turned into, he is at core a good person, its like he is under some kind of spell.

He did try and talk to me this morning, but I lacked the strength to deal with him due to lack of sleep, so I went out to get some fresh air.

It is good to hear that there is a chance for recovery, although the way my H is acting at the moment, it feels a million miles away if not impossible.

When (if) he returns tonight, I will ask him the respect question again. At the moment, I am trying to save the M alone, and although my H has 2 sessions with the counsellor, there is little point the way he is behaving.

I just want to make sure everything I do is aimed at recovery. I am having counselling with Steve Harley, but Steve has said I should let my H know I am upset if he stays out the night, but did not mention anything about ultimatums.

Were you ever like this with your W?

Hi Hitch, If you read what you wrote above you state that you can't go on any longer with your H disrespecting you...

You put his bag and car keys on the step and told him to take his bag and leave if he cannot stop disrespecting you.

Why did you give him that ultimatum if you didn't mean it???

It DID have the effect of getting his attention and actually LISTENING to you and I would try to use that as a starting point.

So far he has been given ZERO reason to consider changing his behavior.

In his mind he is "paying you back" for the A.

Revenge has a LONG shelf life and until he is redirected into working together on the M with you he will continue doing it.

DO NOT GIVE ULTIMATUMS.

Draw your boundaries.

If you stay out all night I may have to have an alarm system installed because I am here alone....
and I KNOW you would not want me to be unprotected while I am alone and it would be a comfort knowing that if anyone enters while the alarm is set to "home" that a shrieking siren will go off and call 911. Thanks babe!!!

Jim

You asked whether I was ever with Mrs.Flint the way your H is with you.

Some ways yes...

Some ways no...

Was I ever as angry as your H is?

Probably MORE angry because it was with my own brother.

I have never struck a woman and never will...

but I can't deny I wanted her to hurt as much as I did...

The pain I felt at having TWO people that I loved and trusted betray me was beyond imagination...

That continued until I saw that she UNDERSTOOD my pain and took responsibility for what she had done.

If you have read my thread you will see that FWW Mrs.Flint did EVERYTHING that MB asks to try to make amends for destroying my family AND compensate me by giving US an even BETTER MARRIAGE than we had before.

The REASON for her efforts to recover was that when she finally told me about the A which had gone on for YEARS I was so upset I looked EVERYWHERE for help and found MB. It gave us the tools to start recovery.

When I began posting to MB we had been working the program almost since the day I was told of the A.

If I read your signature correctly your H was forced to endure FOUR months of your contact with the OM. Have you asked him how he felt about that? UNDERSTANDING each others pain with empathy can go a LONG ways toward forgiveness...

We went no contact with my brother and other than a funeral have had absolutely no contact with him. That does not mean I didn't have to deal with her rationalizing ALL the reasons I shouldn't give up my own brother for life.

Which of course is how a wayward rationalizes staying in contact...

If I had not had MB as a plan I'm sure we would not have made it and is WHY your H is acting the way he is...

He has nothing to channel his pain into other than revenge and other women in an attempt to restore his self esteem and inflict the pain he feels on you...

Work the plan.

Did I miss where you are finding out who these other women are and exposing?

Jim

Hitch,

It seems like both of you are deeply hurt, and you needn't be, in the bottom line.

I am surprised that no one including Harley has suggested that your H might still feel like a hurt little boy. I do not mean that as derogatory, I mean it as a possibility. For a white knight to realize that his princess has fallen off her horse and has succumbed, it will take a long long time for him to even want to get back on his horse and reclaim his princess - i.e., the deep emotions of jealousy and resentment. Men can be like that. Your story should not be day to day - it is going to take months and years.

From my standpoint, if betrayed husbands seem like tagalongs then they need Your WW's encourgement and respect per your origianl marriage committment, and if they seem revengeful - as to revenge relationships - then they still need that.

May I remind you that Most people in the US do not have the problems you are having purely and simply because they show much more caring.

I will say some prayers for you but you need to take lots more intiiative from your gut. Good Luck,

Tom

Hi All

H came home from golf, and the long and short of it was that we were able to have a good chat and I could find out more information.

It didn't start off too well, as H said that me packing a bag and asking him to leave was ridiculous as I was the one to have the affair that started all of this. As Just Learning and Jim suggested, I thought I would take this opportunity to get him to open up a little bit more. My H told me that he loved me, but couldn't see a future for our M. My H said that there are too many problems for us to get past, that the A has also made him look at the relationship. I will tell you what the problems, are and how I responded to him.

1. I had not come clean about the A and that I had lied to him for over a year. If I had told him last year when it happened he would have been able to forgive me and work through it. I agreed with H that it was awful, and such a hideous thing to do. That the worst thing, is I have to live with myself for ever, and even worst than being dishonest with him, was being dishonest to myself.

2. Our families have strong negative opinions about each other and how do we deal with that if we get back together. I agreed with him that I am sure his family don't want to see him back with me, and that they want to see him happy with someone else. I did also say that the proof would be in the pudding and if we are able to build a happy loving marriage, then they would be happy for us eventually. I did point out, that his mother has never had a good relationship with any of her 3 sons wives or girlfriends and did not seem to like any of them.

3. He said the situation has made him look at how the M was before the A and that I was very selfish and I never considered him. That he thinks I am selfish with my family and friends. I didn't really react to this one, appart from listening to him and not being defensive, I just acknowledged that the affair was a very selfish decision. However, that I will look into this.

4. I never made enough effort with his family, and that although his mother was very initimidating, that I could have killed her with kindness. That also his Dad remarked, that he never really knew me. I agreed that I could have made more of an effort with his mother and father, I suppose my tactic was to keep them at arms length as then I would not fall out with her like he other DIL. Wrong I know now! Although I did say that I got on well with his eldest Brother and wife which I did. They were always very warm and friendly.

5. That I would not get over the OW he has had, and that I would not be able to get past it and would continually bring it up. He said that the OW, were not about revenge but about ego and self esteem, as he had taken such a kick. I said that I could get past it if I could ask questions about where they had been and who they had met amongst family and friends, and also if we built a safe secure marriage together that was open and honest.

6. That I am very easily led and do not have my own mind. That I never listened to his opinion and that I listen to my mother too much who does not have good views, opinions or morals. I told him that I have done a lot of soul searching and perhaps grown up in a way, as I had my mother on a pedastal, but have formed my own boundaries and morals.

7. How I behaved when the affair was discovered, I blamed it on the relationship and did not accept responsibility. I agreed with him and said I handled it badly. (this was before I discovered MB and tried to justify the A in my own head, and did not accept full responsibility.

8. He said I never really loved him. I told him I absolutely did love him, and I told him I took him for granted. I said that lots of people around me had told me to give up and he wanted names. I said but its not about what other people think, it is what I want to do. He seems really bothered about what others think.

I did tell him that I was doing a lot of work looking at myself and how I could be a better spouse. I told him about all the things I have been learning such as setting boundaries for myself, learning not to have expectations of others and also an understanding of what constitutes a good M.

I also asked him how he felt about the A? He said there was nothing he wanted to know, the hardest thing was the lie and the pain of finding out. I asked him if there was anything specific he wanted to know, and he said no I don't really care anymore. He also said he didn't really agree with some of the principles Steve Harley talks about and that I have been great the last few weeks, but it has only been a few weeks.

Then we spent the rest of the evening together on the sofa. We watched 'Sister Act' and a song came on about a woman following her man to the end of the earth, and I said I love you more than anything H, and I won't give up on this M.

Not sure where this leaves me.

Hitch,

I was good you listened. I did chuckly a bit about the following statement If you were easily led, he would have been able to lead you, but he failed.

Ask him why he failed? I know the answer do you?

I think you handled this well. I also think he is still fogged up from his affair. I see lots of justification but an unwillingness to accept responsibility for his actions. Here is something for you to talk about and think about.

Yet, when you packed a bag and told him to leave, he did not. He is using your affair to justify his behavior and he is using the idea that the marriage is over to justify his behavior, but in reality he wants his cake and eat it too.

Just as you have to work on boundaries and focusing on what is important, he does as well. I am sure it has not escaped your notice that he is doing what you did and he is accusing you of still doing. The fog.

It is time for you to ask when he will face his decisions and accept responsibility for his actions. And further what his plans are if he doesn't want to work on the marriage or be in the marriage. My guess he doesn't have any. He is waiting for you to fix all of this.

And here is where your boundaries come into play. If you protect your boundaries you have a better chance of getting to face his lack of boundaries. Further, you have a better chance to have both of you decide what a good marriage is and work on it.

You did well, keep it up.

God Bless,

JL

I am just so confused right now it is untrue.

I already asked him the question, that I accept that he does not want to be in the M any longer, then why hasn't he done anything about it such as move out or file for D? He said that he has been busy focusing on work and has not had the time.

If I am honest, one of the reasons that he won't leave the house, is because he loves this house. It is a beautiful house that we both restored. One of the reasons I can't bear to leave the house is the thought of him bringing another woman in here and he told me the same about another man. He believes that I am the one that had the affair so how can I kick him out?

I am not sure what to do, I tried to enforce my boundary with him about staying out the night and he continues to do so. I know in my gut, that whatever boundary I try to enforce, that he will do what he wants to do. I can continue to be nice and show him I am changing and learning and enforce my boundaries and he may calm down and spend more time with me, but he will not give the M the commitment it needs, whilst he can live his cake eating life style.

I believe he would take me back, it will take time, but it will be on his terms with total submission from me, doing everything for him and him taking no responsibility. I would only be miserable.

I think the only thing that will get him to face his responsibility for the relationship and affairs, will be for me to move out and cut off all contact. I really don't want to have to do this though, although part of me thinks that I would find some peace.

I feel like he is manipulating me at the moment, and that he does want me to fix it, he does not want to take any responsibility or stop his single life. He is not being honest with me about his whereabouts, if he wanted me out of the house, he could do this by making my life complete hell by telling me about his OW or asking me to leave, as we do have another house.

I am totally messed up. Or maybe I am just not listening to my H that the M is over and I am clinging on to false hope. I have no idea.

JL, you said,

If you were easily led, he would have been able to lead you, but he failed.

Ask him why he failed? I know the answer do you?

No I don't know the answer. My brain is so tired. I am trying to grow, learn and set boundaries (which I seem to get wrong), and understand my downfalls and shortcomings in the relationship. I am dealing with a H who is very strong and to be honest I don't like what I see, or how he is tearing 10 strips out of me and how I failed in the rship. He has just listed so many things about me, and to be honest that was what the relationship was like, always trying to live upto his expectations, constant criticisms and him telling me off, and never hearing anything good back. I remember organising a borthday lunch for him, and he had a massive go at me beforehand because I hadn't invited enough people, what had he done for my birthday? Sod all. I have always worked hard, supported him in his business, contributed well financially, made all the plans in the relationship for holidays/weekends away/days out, took full responsibility for running the house (bills, cleaning, cooking, shoppping) did little suprises for him.

I fear this situation is hopeless. I just can't see a way out. I almost feel like saying to him you know, your right, the M is over lets put a plan together to end it.

Tom - Thank you for your prayers I am going to need it.

Jim - It is really helpful to have your perspective as a BH. Please keep posting. I read your thread, and you are incredible and honourable man to work through your situation, your wife is incredibly lucky and I am you are too.

I like this..What school is this? I want those kind of friends.

I am not surprised again that Steve was so wise.

Hitch,

Here is the deal, you have to work with the data you have. You may not like the data, you may hope the data changes, but you have to work with the data you have.

Before I start on data, let me clear something up. You enforcing boundaries does not mean he will change his behavior. It means you change yours.

In this case, he continues to stay out. Your boundary is respect. If he will not respect you, then you are with the wrong man. You enforce boundaries by telling people they are crossing one. If they insist on continuing you move on with your life and leave them. You don't fix people because they violate your boundary. You remove them from your life.

So let's look at the data as you see it. You said

The paragraph I just quoted is full of data. If you had a good friend and she started to data a man that did these things what would you tell her? If you dated a man that did these things and you had boundaries, what would you do???

Hitch, if indeed things are as you say, what are your boundaries telling you to do??? What needs of yours does he meet? You are coming to a critical point here. I have great sympathy for the BS in these situation, but I also know that for a marriage to work, both people need to be involved.

My guess is he is making you do what he does not have the guts to do, and that is end this marriage. I am very pro-marriage, but it is not supposed to be a life sentence of misery.

You need to really look at the data, look at your boundaries and decide what is best for you. You don't make people adhere to your boundaries unless you own the company or you have strong leverage over someone. In a marriage, this does not work. He must be willing to see you happy and safe and that means honoring your boundaries.

Hitch, he will only take you back when he respects you and for that to happen you have to respect yourself first. Think about this.

The answer is he is passive aggressive and does not want the responsibility of leading you, but wants you to read his mind and cater to him. At least that is what it seems from what you have said.

Get some rest and then think about all of this.

God Bless,

JL

I needed to hear that.

I love what the posters have been sharing with you on this thread. Many heavy hitters here coaching. This place is truly remarkable

Just finished your thread. I respect JL and his take on the sitch and I second his appraisal that H is passive agressive and he expects you to mind read.

I also understand why you would had problems feeling loved in the past, although you allready know it was no excuse for the A. You could have done anything else but hurt yourself and your marriage.

Follow JLs leading, He has remarkable insight in this.

God Bless

Hi All

Update is that H and I have both worked at home today, I told my H I had some thoughts on our discussion yesterday that I would like to share with him;

1. That I made a terrible decision to have the affair and was finding hard to forgive myself, so can imagine it was difficult for him to forgive me.
2. That his mother has never supported us in our marriage and I never felt that he has defended the way she has treated me, I told him that she had treated me terribly and my only mistake was that I never confronted her with her behaviour and set boundaries. I also said that I know that it was not a personal thing against me, that she does not like any of her DIL's (she has 3, 1 other son divorced and I think it is awful that she resents her own sons happiness. Also that she would never get her approval and he was wasting his time.
3. I know that I did wrong, such as having the affair and not communicating well with him but at least I am able to look at myself and make changes to my behaviour. All his life he has been told how perfect he is, but he too has flaws but he won't face them, I also added that i believed in him and our marriage and that is why i am still here.
4. I told him that he was having affairs too and he could not justify them because of my affairs and saying that the M was over, if the M was over then he needed to take the steps to end it. Also that he had no respect for me or those OW, and if those OW were of any substance they would have kicked him out and told him to go back to his wife.
5. Finally I ended that if he will not respect me and continue to see other women, then we need to put a plan in place to end the marriage.

He said OK, and I left the room.

20 minutes later he came upstairs to talk to me. He said I am not sure why you are getting all defensive with me Hitch? I told him that I was simply communicating how I feel, he started to look upset, I said look don't get upset we will end this marriage with dignity and grace, then he started to cry. I said I love you very much H, but I cannot continue like this. We were talking in the hallway and I asked him to sit on the bed and talk to me.

He said that he just feels like there are so many hurdles to get past, that there are too many. I said lets talk about them then. He said for instance, how are you going to deal and face my mother? He said things were awful before, whats it going to be like now? I said my suggestion would be to invite his mum and dad over for a meal to our house and for us to communicate TOGETHER our intention to rebuild our M, yes that Hitch made a terrible mistake and H has had some failings too, but this what WE want to do and we hope that you support us. He said he didnt think that was a good idea and it should be on her territory, and that if he was me he would go round there and talk to her. That I should confess I have had a nightmare but I am trying to sort things out. I said OK, but I am not sure that is the best way to handle that but let me think on it.

That just about sums up everything I have struggled with. That a condition of our reconciliaton would be for me to go round and apologise to his mother or seek peace.

I am chuckling to myself now. I have not responded to him yet but I have thought about this (I am liking this new technique of mine which is not automatically responding to things, but going away and thinking about them). I think in an ordinary situation if I had a good relationship with my MIL I probably would have gone round and discussed things with her, but there was no relationship between us. If my H and I did decide to rebuild our M I think this would be communicating a really bad message. I think what this would be saying is, if you forgive me, then H will forgive me. What mesage does this give her? That she has total control over her sons decisions about whether he reconciles with his wife. I will then live in constant resentment just to make him happy.

Am I trying to achieve the impossible?

Comments:

1. Good, probably should have stopped here.
2. Irrelevant. How his mother treats you has no bearing on how you treat one another. Looks like a blame shift, distraction from the real issue.
3. Blame shift, DJ, huge love buster. I'm X, but your are worse. That's not going to make any love bank deposits. Even if it's true.
4. Boundary statement, but way too complex. Mind reading, DJ's by saying he has no respect. He may or may not. You may not feel respected, but to assert he does or doesn't respect you is just a love buster. To many "yous" and not enough "I's" in point #4.
5. Boundary statement. I think I would have phrased this is a positive fashion. Make a thoughtful request for a positive behavior instead of a negative boundary statement. I.E. "I propose that you think about recommitting to our marriage. That we once again affirm our vows, and live them out, loving one another, forsaking all others. Take some time, think about it, and if that's what you want to do, then set up another session with Steve Harley and we'll begin to plan out how we will accomplish that."

Or something of that sort.

It's good to have boundaries, I'm not against that. But at the same time, you have to sell MB and the marriage as something enjoyable. Seems you just wanted to go off on him.

Even if he deserved it, during this exchange, were you the kind of wife he would rush home to see, or someone who puts the majority of the blame on her spouse?

Only one of your five points was solidly about owning your own stuff. The other four were about his failures either directly or tacitly in the case of your MIL.

I think you should have stopped at #1, and perhaps tendered an invite to a better marriage and left out all the stuff in the middle.