Ok some fair points Enlightened Ex, so what about his affairs?

I do think I could have phrased some of the things I said better and ignored others.

However, something must have worked as he went out and made a gorgeous lunch for me. This is a first, and it feels like something MAJOR. He has also told me that he is not seeing other women.

Your right EX, I need to invite him to recommit to the M, and put it in a positive light and inviting offer.

You guys have only been married 3 years. I can tell you from 1st hand experience that his mother has waaaaayyyyy too much say so in your marriage. You guys should approach her as a united front and read her the riot act (in a nice way). Mom/MIL, we have both made some major mistakes in OUR marriage. After much thought and counseling, WE have decided to work on OUR marriage. WE would love to have your support, however, OUR recovery does not depend on your support.

If your husband doesn't let mom/MIL know her place NOW... she will continue to interfere in your marriage and it won't be pretty. Trust me. I've lived it. After 33 years of marriage, my husband and I finally learned this and no longer have anything to do with his mother. She is just too negative about everything and everyone and gets her jollies on other people's misery. She had her chance and has made her choices. She's a sad, lonely old woman (which is what I predicted a long, long time ago).

What about his, what about yours, what in your dialog would make him want to commit to you and forsake all others?

If he's so bad, why do you want to remain married to him?

Good question EX

What would want to make him commit?

Maybe its the act that when he walks in the door at 11am in the morning from being with another women I put on a smile and say hi did you have a good night?

Because I have told him that it was my mistake and I don't expect him to forgive me, he has every right to leave the M if he wants

Because I lend him money, talk about his business all the time and help solve his business problems and support his through the crisis

Because I say have a nice time at golf honey when he disappears off every Saturday and Sunday all day and come home late and then when he walks in the door - how did that go did you have fun?

Because I have stayed living in the same house with him for 6 months after finding out the A, trying to repair the M, instead of walking away when he has been out with 4 different women

Maybe because I spend every minute of the day thinking how I can be a better person and wife and tell him all the things I have learned

Maybe because I am trying to be fun around him when my heart is broken as that is one of his complaints I am no fun

Why do I remain married to him?

Because he is not acting like the person I married since he found out about the affair and I look at MB concepts and think there is hope.

I actually didn't really get the point of your question as it is something already covered earlier in the thread.

I think I should take a little break at the moment. I am becoming quite defensive, I think it is due to over thinking about the situation and I need to give myself a break so I can get my head together and deal with things. I also have not slept well the last few nights.

I appreciate everyones support who has been posting on my thread.

Hitch,

I have lots and lots and lots to say. But, I will keep this one short.

I believe it was Pepperband, that once stated that the ONLY reason she forgave her H's affair was that he manned up and apologized to everyone involved and that included the OW's H.

Now I am certain there were other reason such as she loved her H, but he HAD to man up and apologize.

I agree with other suggestions about dealing with MIL, but I think it is important that the single message she and your FIL need to hear is an apology from you about your Affair and how it hurt her son.

As for his affairs, you need what he needs...HONESTY. Otherwise through this marriage out. I am being blunt here and probably not very MB, but you both have fouled the nest and you both need to clean it up.

Frankly he is treating you like his mother. He messes up, he does an act of contrition, such as helping around the house or making lunch. He has learned that he cannot confront is Mother and he cannot handle her anger so he is passive aggressive.

He does not want to stand anywhere near the line of fire when you apologize and he does not want to confront his mother or you with his failings. Not caring, not being involved, is not loving someone. You need to apologize, but I also think you need to explain about your marriage. Here is where boundaries come into play.

I have cut out one of my siblings because of them crossing my boundaries and also hurting other members of my family. I am not going to try and fix her, I am not going to fight with her. I explained my feelings and her list of trangressions which include criminal acts. I will probably regret not having this person and family prosecuted, but it would have hurt other family members. So the answer is...removal from the family. Just had a big family event, a wedding, this person and family were not invited. I don't want them anywhere near my children who are adults.

My point, you are hearing from someone who has in fact removed someone close from their lives because of violation of boundaries. So take this for what it is worth. You know what though. My W and I have not missed a moments sleep, nor have we spent a moment in regret for this decision. Just regret it came to this.

Your H is in the fog. Further, he thinks all women are like his mother and he treats them as such. I suspect that is your problem with him. He is afraid to get close to you because you have the power to really hurt him, and you have. He is afraid to admit his transgressions because he is afraid you will react like his mother.

So perhaps you need to ask yourself "what would his mother do in this situation?" And then do the opposite.

Must go.

JL

Hitch, breaks are good! This is such intense stuff and when you are trying to do it right, even the smallest things are magnified. I know from my experience that I sometimes take what the forum says personally, particularly when I have been trying really hard. I'm still looking for external validation....

You mentioned you were considering a career change. I just read This Time I Dance: Creating the Work you Love by Tami Kieves. She was a Harvard lawyer who left the practice of law after a decade to write. It is a quick, often funny read -- a little new agey for me, but I highlighted about half of it.

Anyway, after weeks of obsessing about my H and M, reading that book got me really excited about my life. All roads seem to lead back to honoring who I am.

My psychiatrist suggested that I/we read The Way of the Superior Man. I found the title offputting, so only read a couple of chapters, but for some reason while we were separated in May/June my H read it and it seems to be making a significant difference -- I read through what H had highlighted and the author has some good insights on women that are spelled out pretty clearly. Sometimes I'll mention a surprising change in behavior and he'll say "Chapter 19, baby." Whatever works.

It occurred to me that maybe your H would be willing to look at that book -- I think the title appeals to the male ego (sorry guys, no offense intended), it is very short, not M related, and has none of the usual indicia of a self help book which men are sometimes loathe to touch.

I did apologize to my MIL but we've always been close -- in fact, she was sympathetic which surprised me. Your MIL is a different kettle of fish. She reminds me very much of my mother, and the toxicity between a boundary free mother and the women in her sons lives can be very destructive.

I'm not going to try to tell you what to say, but I would strongly encourage you not to meet with her about the A without your H there. I suspect that if it is just the two of you, you will find the conversation she reports bears very little resemblance to the conversation you actually had.

This work we are doing on boundaries is hard, but so important. Don't let anyone get your down about your progress (good boundary, right?)

ITA

Saddest and Hitch,

If The Way of the Superior Man appeals to men's egos, then why did I pick up "Men made simple"? I ran across that book on a trip years ago, and the title just made me laugh so I picked it up. It is actually a good book for women to read, because the author does get at least part of what men are about.

It is a very easy read. I read it in less than an hour and it is sort of a 12 step approach to dealing with men. I have actually found it useful when communicating on this site because it gave me some insight into what women don't understand about men.

Must go.

JL

JL, simple men is an oxymoron, but I ordered the book anyway.

I needed a break from all things serious and relationship related -- is is astonishing how ubiquitous infidelity is on TV and in books. Seemed like everything I picked up to read had an A involved. In desperation, I downloaded The Disappearing Spoon: And Other True Tales of Madness, Love, and the History of the World from the Periodic Table of the Elements.

Brilliant. I don't know how it would occur to someone to take the history of the periodic tables and turn it into a narrative, but it is fascinating -- and of course I thought of you JL.

Hitch, hope things are improving for you. I am reluctantly coming to the conclusion that M requires actual verbal communication. Yikes.

I set a boundary with my H the other day about interrupting me when I am in the middle of concentrating on something which I experience as a disrespectful judgement, i.e., what you, W, are doing is less important than what I, H, need or want in this moment. Since H works at home and I am by nature a loner, this has been the biggest issue for me.

I explained the emotional message his interruptions send me, that it doesn't matter whether that is the message he intends to send because that I how I experience it, and that the conduct creates resentment and withdrawal.

Lo and behold, the world did not end. He didn't even get mad or defensive -- historically, such a discussion would have deteriorated into a dissection of the validity of my complaint.

H agreed not to interrupt me when I am on my computer, and I am to say "you are bugging me" when he interrupts me in other things I'm doing that require concentration.

I'm highly suspicious. H is reading something although he sidesteps my questions. He used the term "emotionally available" the other day, as in he wants to be emotionally available to me. Not a term that was formerly in his lexicon. I think it's kind of cute actually that he won't tell me what he's reading.

Didn't mean to threadjack. I'm rooting for you Hitch -- check in when you can!

SW

Thank you for the book recommendations, my H hates any kind of self help book and even gets annoyed at me when I read them! I told him I was posting on this site and he thinks that it is another sign that I don�t know my own mind and I am easily influenced.

I have stopped obsessing about the situation much more, I think one of the reasons that I do that is because I just want to be settled and happy and would LOVE to have a family, like Steve said this will be the fastest route to achieving this.

I have been following your thread and it sounds as though things are going really well, you are very lucky because your H is willing to engage on improving the relationship. Embrace that, I have in my mind all the things I would like to do if he is onboard such as meeting other friends for dinner, walks on the beach, weekend in Paris��.in time maybe.

Princess

Thank you for your great suggestion on how to approach MIL. I think it sounds like a great way to approach them and you have first hand experience of how destructive it can be in a M if it is not dealt with. My BIL, handles her really well, he communicates his boundaries to her, and his wife feels safe to deal with her appropriately knowing she has the support of her H. When the time is right, I will respond to my H and suggest the approach you have outlined, I know it sounds weird but I want him to hold my hand so I feel his support. I will also say to my H, that I will put a lot more effort into the relationship with them and get to know them better. I never did this before I just tried to keep her at arms length as I didn�t know how to deal with things. I will explain to him the benefits of doing it this way for the future so he understands I am not doing it to be controlling, I am suggesting it to create a better future for us both doing this TOGETHER and establishing boundaries to protect us.

JL

I feel a real shift in me over the last week. The use of boundaries has been very powerful and I feel an inner sense of confidence growing in knowing who I am and what I stand for. I almost feel excited about life, even thought things seem to an outsider to be falling apart. The most 2 powerful boundaries are honesty and respect. The respect boundary has been brilliant in protecting myself from others and been aware of when someone is treating me badly (and dealing with it in an appropriate way) and when someone is treating me well. The honesty boundary has been extremely powerful, I think the biggest difference is I am starting to be honest with MYSELF and to others. I suppose with this boundary you are not always going to like what you see, and I have been thinking a lot more about my H personality. For instance, when I came home from work he was on his bed, I asked him if he had a good day, and he responded OK, then I asked him if there was something up and he said no I�m fine (there clearly was something up). So I just walked out the room. I get frustrated when he won�t communicate with me and I have been thinking about it a lot and do think he is passive aggressive and does treat me like his mother. I have put some examples together to test this out;

1. I use to arrange and plan all our holidays/weekends away, but when we use to get there he use to criticize everything which put a real downer on the trip.
2. He cannot �make love� to me, only has sex.
3. When I use to try and communicate with him about an �issue� in the relationship he would change the subject and make me laugh.
4. He never took any responsibility for running of the house, planning things for us to do and dealing with any problems.
5. He is quite critical of me and was prone to angry outbursts
6. He never appreciated everything I did for him, and what I did was never enough, I was worn out.
7. He does not like been intimate and cannot tell me he loves me, or give me any compliments�.He did not tell me that I looked beautiful on my wedding day for example�.
8. I always use to ask him to do things, such as pick up some milk or pick up the dry cleaning and he always forgot, then I have to ask him repeatedly and then he tells me I am a nag.
9. He probably said sorry to me about 3 times in 8 years, in fact he has said sorry more since I have started to defend my boundaries. Progress maybe?
10. I felt like he was a passive bystander in the relationship.
11. I don�t feel like he really �likes� women, he has never had any women friends and a lot of women annoy him.
12. He could not deal or face any difficult situations in life, he hid from them.

I am not trying to run him down here, I am just being HONEST with myself as to how the relationship operated. I have many faults too, probably one of the biggest for both of us which is my affair. I have started to look at him in a different light lately, almost the more I start to learn and grow I look at him as a scared little boy with no confidence. I am annoyed with myself here as I feel as though I failed him in a big way. When I met him he really lacked confidence and prior to the affair, he had really grown into a more confident person and I have just ruined it all.

The question I am asking is do I want to put all my time and energy into rebuilding my marriage with him, and even if I do everything will he be able to give me what I need or do I D him and look for someone who can give me love, care and support. When I think what attracted me to OM, it all started after my H and I had a major row as I had just had a successful fertility operation and the day after I came out of hospital my H went to play golf for the day and stayed for dinner and drinks after, I was so upset as I thought he would want to be with me and us both spend some time together celebrating the news. I was so angry I went back to work early. The OM approached me at work and asked what was I doing back early and I should be home resting and if I was ok? I nearly burst into tears and had a big lump in my throat and that�s where it all started. I was attracted to him because he seemed caring and concerned.

However, I also want to add that I never communicated boundaries to my H, I expected him to be a mind reader, I was never open and honest about my feelings towards him and towards the end I had an AFFAIR.

Just some thoughts, that�s all.

Hitch

Pretty much, yes.

I knew I would not last long in the marriage unless I could respect my husband's actions.

He's gotten REALLY GOOD at making an honest apology these past 14.5 years.
Me ~~~> <~~~ My DH

This is what a healthy boundary feels like.
Pretty damn cool
This is how I felt when I told my H that my boundary to continue in the marriage was that he go make his apologies. In person.

See how it works?
Healthy behavior for the former betrayed spouses looks pretty much the same as healthy behaviors for the former wandering spouses.
Glad to see this is working for you.

LMAO!!!!!

Hitch,

Now Pep is woman that KNOWS about boundaries. Listen to her and read her posts, she is good.

Ya know Hitch I am proud of you for facing your lack of boundaries and learning what they are. Boundaries do give you power, not power over other people but power over yourself and how you evaluate things.

My W and I just had a discussion that I think might give you some pause for thought (since all you have been doing is thinking, I thought I would give you a break ).

The discussion concerns a friends of ours son. Apparently although his side of the family is happy for the pregnancy, they fear what it will do for him.

He went to a very upscale University, and had dreams and aspirations for his future. However, he met this girl and fell in love. Now this girl and her mother pretty much run things. When he found an opportunity about an hour away from MIL and family, W would not allow him to take it because she wants to live near Mom. He works meaningless jobs and now they are expecting. In any event, his Mom was regaling my W with these stories and lamenting the life ahead for her son and my W was relating them to me.


I finally said "W I don't really want to hear about it. Apparently this young man (I have known him since he was an infant) is happy in the situation he is in, OR he would have changed things. He has made these decisions and as much as we see the situation as bad, he clearly is happy with it, so much so that he is now going to be a father. My W said "you don't understand his W has him wrapped around her finger and she does precisely what she wants no matter the affect on him."

I looked at her and said "he let her. He wants her more than he wants a life, a career, or even a say in his life. If he does not want this then I am extremely disappointed in him for failing to take the necessary actions to obtain a life he wants."

Hitch, I have a point to make here. YOu came here and you have been exposed to the tools for a good relationship. You have been exposed to what it takes for a good relationship. We have beat on you about boundaries, and you are acquiring them and finding them to be very beneficial in your life.

Hitch, you hold the quality of your life in YOUR hands. SH is right the best way to have many of things you want (children for one) is via your H. But at what cost? You get to chose the situation of your life. You are a very lucky woman, don't throw this opportunity away, think long and hard about what you expect from your life and what you expect from those around you.

You will have no one to blame but yourself. The reason I have pounded on boundaries, is because you have the awesome responsibility of making life changing decisions in your life, and while none of us can see the future, you will never regret if you make your decisions based on your core boundries/morals/beliefs. The outcome may not be as you hoped, but you won't second guess your decision. An alternative example is your A. A decision that violated your morals/boundaries and you regret it deeply.

Please think about this as you evaluate your situation.

God Bless,

JL

JL

I thought when you said you were going to give me a break from thinking you meant it &#61514;! In your post you write about choosing what you want out of life, for me this is whether I want to have a future with my H. This is something I have always thought about in the back of my mind but didn�t have the boundaries or understanding of what makes a good relationship to evaluate the decision.

I love my husband dearly, this I do know. I would give 100% to creating a happy, safe, caring and loving marriage. There are many things I have learnt in order to be a better wife that I want to start using them NOW! I do not control my H neither do I want to, but I can take the lead and show him the way and hope he embraces it.

I think what I am saying, is that I am not prepared to compromise for the rest of my life. I want to be in a marriage where I receive love, care and support. I am not prepared to bring children into the world in a marriage where one partner is not fulfilled, I am the child of divorced parents and I am not willing to do that to mine. I know you can�t predict the future but you can create a solid base to move forwards. Therefore my H and I need to be 100% committed to creating a good relationship.

So I know what I want, out of this falls 2 questions. The first question, does my husband want the same as me and is he prepared to give what it takes? The second question, is my husband capable of giving me what I need? Before someone asks, yes I am capable of giving him what he needs as he was happy before the affair and felt as though most of his needs where being met, however there is many changes that I would make and improvements.

The first question, I need to ask my husband, I know he loves me very much, I just know. The second question bothers me most. There is so many of my emotional needs that are NOT being met.

OK let me be truly honest with myself. The OM moved me to such a place I did not know was possible, I glowed with happiness and it was like I had taken a drug it felt so good, he was the one in charge taking care of me. When we were on the business trip we stayed up all night talking, chatting and sharing things. He was so comfortable in his self and who he was and what he stood for, it was so addictive. When we made love, I was reduced to tears, as I had never felt so fulfilled, connected and intimate with someone. I have never felt such a strong desire for anyone in my life. I am sorry, I am just being honest. This did wear off though, when I realized the person he REALLY was, I am not sure I could get past the fact that he was prepared to pursue and sleep with a married woman. There was also other things that he was happy for me to do such as take drugs and smoke things that I knew my husband would not want me doing as he TRULY loved me. The point is that I got needs such as connection, intimacy and SF that I don�t get from my H.

I want my H to be in charge, take the lead, care for me, let his barriers down and be intimate with me and feel that true glow of fulfillment�Is this possible? Should I walk away now?

My current thoughts are to write a loving letter to my H, asking for us both to give it a shot, to describe what I need and asking him to share with me what he needs? Tell him my wants and hope for the future, asking him his and whether he wants to have that with me? Tell him all the things I have learned and how I want us both to grow together. Then at the end of the letter, say most importantly whatever happens, I am sorry for the hurt and pain I have caused you from my affair and I this is the only regret I will ever have in my life, and I won�t allow another.

That was "dating" .... not marriage.
When people are dating, they put themselves in the very best light.



As were you, a woman prepared to make yourself, a married woman, available to such a man.
His character was no darker than your own.


And, did you do those drugs and smoke the whatever?



Danger and forbidden fruit .... that's what you had.
You did NOT have intimacy.



What a huge coward you are!
I am shocked at how cowardly you are.


I wonder how "loving" this letter would actually turn out to be?

Why don't you seduce him in person?


Why don't you seduce him in person?



Why don't you seduce him in person?


May I suggest you express these deep feelings while lying naked, with your legs wrapped around him ... tearfully looking into his eyes.

That, my dear, would be the BRAVE way to discover intimacy with your husband.
Physically and Emotionally naked.

Just a thought .... You have NO IDEA how powerful you are when it comes to creating the marriage you desire WITH your husband.

Just ask JL.
He understands the power of a seductive and loving wife.

Pep,
Ever consider putting one of your own posts on your Notables thread?

I nominate the one above...

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Nawwww

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