Sorry I have not been giving you guysdaily updates to keep my thread current, but time is hard to find. I am very grateful for the people who have offered advice so far. I am posting a recap of events in the hope of getting more responses and advice for my situation as my other thread seems to have gone quiet.

D-DAY: Aug. 17th, 2010

EXPOSED TO: my parents, her parents, my grandparents, my extended family, OMW

PROMISE OF NO CONTACT: AUG 17
PROMISE OF NO CONTACT BROKEN: AUG 19th

PLAN A in effect (very difficult)

OMWs wife has not confronted OM yet. OMW is very cooperative with me in giving me all the information I need abut OM as well as making arrangments to avoid the two of them seeing each other. She has also mentioned to me that OM is flirting with her alot and still having sex with her and has mentioned that she feels OM is actually being deceptive to my WW.

The biggest piece of advice I am hoping to get at the moment is how to confront my WW about no contact. I want to avoid Love Busters and demands and anger. WWe are seeing a MC tomorrow and I want to confront WW about no contact during the counselling session. But what if she flat out denies it?
As in:
ME: "I know you have been talking with this guy everyday for the last two weeks."
WW: "No I havent"
ME: "Well, I know that you have."
WW (DEFENSIVE ANDANGRY): "Nope, I said I woudnt and I havent"

So now what? If any vets or anyone out there can suggest a script where I can confront her without me resorting to calling her a liar and getting angry at her I would really appreciate it. It is very important to me todo this right. Also, at this point I am thinking of asking her to change her cellphone number and remove him as a friend on FaceBook. But hwat if she refuses? Do I jsut accept it and continue with Pan A? It seems like there should be a consequence for her if she is not willing to take these steps to ensure no contact. But I am not ready to go straight to Plan B yet either. Please help with advice! I really hope to hear from you guys.

Have proof. You have proof, right?

Plan B is your only good option of consequence.

From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:



You tell her you KNOW that she is still in contact with the OM and then you DEMAND that she end all contact or this will lead to divorce. You don't need her admission to know the truth, so don't go down that rathole.

I would also make sure taht she and the OM KNOW that his wife knows. I would confront the OM in addition to exposing him on his facebook account and to his parents. You need to be contacting him EVERY TIME you find out about contact and causing a load of crap in his life.


You must be kidding? she has him for a friend on facebook? WHAT?? You are supposed to DEMAND no contact. Having him as a friend on facebook is a BREACH OF NO CONTACT.

strangedays, I would suggest getting much more aggressive here if you want to save your marriage. A more impactful, meaningful exposure and causing more conflict in the affair will be your best bet.

As it is now, you have set the bar so low she is just living down to your expectations.

strangedays, your approach is not going to make much difference at all. It is like bringing a pea shooter to a gun fight; you will just get your [censored] shot off. You need to man up and fight for your marriage here.

The only message to the OM that will suffice is something like this:

Why is that????
Do you not beleve you have a legitamate reason to be angry with her? I'm kind of dumbfounded here. She has an A and refuses to end contact and YOU are afraid to p***s her off???

I'm not sure what happened to this generation of young men, maybe it's in the flouride water. It seems to have shrunk their male private parts to the point where they are no longer recognizable.

All Blessings,
Jerry

OK, your message has come through loud and clear. Start fighting for the marriage and fight ugly if necessary. It's what feels natural to me to be honest.

The only reason I wasn't getting right in her face about no contact was because of Dr. H writings regarding Plan A/B that angry demands and accusations regarding no contact would only drive the WW into the arms of the OM and she would feel justified as in "Oh my H is such a demanding A-hole". Thats what I understood anyways.

MelodyLane now quotes a new book by Dr.H where he now says no contact must be demanded plain and simple. Well I can do that. I can certainly do that and I will do that, trust me. My feeling from knowing my wife is that she is very stubborn and VERY deep in the fog so to be honest I think LSA or divorce is right around the corner if that is the recommended consequence of no contact.

That really sucks though as I feel that this is too fast. D-day was only Aug 17th. I wish I had more time to Plan A and show her my good side.

This seems to go somewhat against Dr.H recommendation of trying Plan A for as long as possible though doesn't it? I've read many other threads in here where the BS Plan A continues even after multiple breaches of no contact. No one on the boards suggested they Separate or Divorce right away after a breach of NC.

Question #1: To be clear, this is what you are counselling me to do, straight to filing for separation or D if no contact is breached? That seems like just throwing in the towel.

Last point regarding OM, yes, I agree he has NO pressure on him right now. I am planning for that to change very soon. I will even confront him in person if necessary. I can do all that if it will save my marriage. I just wasn't seeing anyone on these boards or anywhere in Dr. H writings advocating at all for personally confronting OM.

Question #2: Has anyone on here personally confronted OM/OW and had good results from that? Or did it just backfire on you?

From Dr. H What is Plan A and Plan B.

"Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover."

This is what I was basing my reluctance to get in her face about breaching NC in an angry and demanding manner. SO now he is recommending a different approach? A little confused now...

And yes I have proof, plenty of proof.

strangedays,

First of all, kudos for wanting to fight for your marriage.You are a hero, and if your W comes around, you will be a hero to her.

Second, don't rush to plan D or a LSA. Listen to your gut. There is no need to rush. Doc H recommends to WOMEN that they keep Plan A very short because women suffer much greater emotional damage in Plan A. Many men can go a little longer.

(in the interest of full disclosure, I am an outlier on the bell curve here... I suffered through multiple false recoveries over several YEARs, not weeks, I am female, I am still alive, our marriage is recovering... BUT... I did suffer all the emotional and mental damage to be expected from a long Plan A, and I do not lightly recommend it to others.)

You are just beginning a journey, and some will pop in here and tell you to go straight to plan D. Do not listen to that if that is not where your heart is.

Your focus right now should be simple. Expose. Confront. Tell your W you are committed to saving your M. And do not get entangled in arguments or debate.

Demand that she stop the A. Tell her you are committed to having a great marriage.

And watch her spin in the wind for a while. Her mind is seriously messed up and you will get nothing rational from her right now.

Who is your W? What kind of person was she before the A? Someone of integrity and value?

if so, you have a good shot at putting it back together.

strangedays,


I believed this as well but it would seem that Dr H has changed that "negotiation" process to a "demand" that WW end her A and go to NC in order for Plan A to have any real effect. I would agree with him 100% here as Plan A on an an active WW is futile. So is MC or IC.

The first thing that has to happen is the A is broken and ended! Any efforts in between is falling on deaf ears and will lead nowhere.

Plan A or any other plan is useless on an active WS. While in the A, they are delusional and will only use your efforts to distort your view and continue to stubbornly cling to cake eating and having both of you. (OM and You).

Confrontation is defining YOUR boundaries and what you accept and not accept. Having gonads is enforcing those boundries regatdless of the ultimate consequences. Something that your WW does not believe you have right now.

Plan A is for two people to recover the M. It will not work as long as she remains in the A, regardless of your boundaries.

I wish you well,

All Blessings,
Jerry

Huh? Plan A is OFTEN used and suggested while the WS is involved in an affair. The PURPOSE of Plan A is to show WS that they CAN have a good marriage IF WS is willing to end the affair and cease all contact. Plan A continues AFTER an affair is broken but that seldom happens. Usually a Plan B follows a GREAT Plan A.

He can still DEMAND that she end the affair and continue with Plan A. Once he sees that nothing is going to change, he can then go into a carefully planned Plan B (which is mainly for BS to catch a break from the daily drama of a WS involved in an affair, to allow WS to experience life without BS, and to preserve the love that BS still has for WS-- otherwise, their LB is depleted rapidly.)

I don't think Dr. H intends to completely do away with Plan A if the demand for no contact is not IMMEDIATELY met. That never happens.

I would love to hear Dr. H's opinion about this.

I agree with PM. Shine you need to bone up on your MB. Plan A is for ending the affair and NOTHING else. Plan A is two parts: demonstrate a willingness to be a great spouse by meeting ENs with NO expectation of reciprocity (because you probably won't get it), and DEMANDING that the affair end. Carrot and Stick. Because of the abusive and destructive nature of Plan A it is a TEMPORARY lifestyle, weeks tops for a woman, a few months for a man. It has absolutely NO place in rebuilding a marriage.

It provides a motivation to END an affair (the promise of a better marriage) and the dose of REALITY that ends the fantasy of the affair (the real-world fallout of the hurtful behavior). It is a tool to END affairs. But as you noted, it will often not work, and it is VERY damaging to the Betrayed Spouse.

Plan A is coupled, then, with Plan B. After giving the adulterer a good dose of hard reality and the taste of a better life, the betrayed spouse cuts off all contact to protect their mental health from the abuse of their wayward partner and to further allow the wayward to confront the reality of the loss of their marriage.

Plan A and Plan B are meant to be used TOGETHER, if Plan A isn't enough.

Plan A ALWAYS demands an ending to the affair. ALWAYS.

SD, no one EVER suggested that you get in her face in an angry and demanding manner, but to respectfully DEMAND that she end her affair.

Thanks for posting that paragraph. I am going to send him an email and ask him why he says this in the article since it seems to conflict with what he says in other places. For YEARS I have heard him say to "demand" an end to the affair and he says this also in the chapter on Infidelity in His Needs, Her Needs.

I can understand avoiding disrespect and angry outbursts, but demands are extremely important because "thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

This does not mean that you don't do Plan A, just that you continually DEMAND she end her affair and cause as much conflict as possible in the affair, such as exposure and contacting the OM every time you have evidence of contact.

You get in OM's face and forcefully demand he stop seeing your wife.
It should not be pretty.

Maybe that's where you got confused?

Well Vib, thanks for that lesson. However, in my 5+ years here, the one thing I've learned is that the changes you make to yourself in Plan A are for life. If you truly believe that Plan A changes to yourself are for nothing more than ending the A, then I would suggest it is you that needs to go back and on MB.



Wow, I must have totally misread all of Dr Harleys articles and his counselling. Thanks for setting me straight.

This is why I don't post here much anymore: the six month experts.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Hey Jerry!! so good to see you.

Vibrissa has done a fantastic job of reading all the MB material and listening to Dr Harley's radio shows. She has done a superb job of educating herself.

I think some of the confusion lies in what was preached on this board about Plan A when you and I were new. It was terrible the crap that was passed off as "Marriage Builders." There was so much misinformation.

WE were told that Plan A is "for you, to improve yourself." Remember that? And we were told not to expose because it is a lovebuster.

Fortunately, Dr Harley has clarified much of the misunderstandings over the past 2 years. Plan A is definitely a short term plan to be used only when there is an ongoing affair. Once the affair ends, Plan A ends because Plan A is one-sided giving, VERY BAD FOR A MARRIAGE. Plan A is supposed to last 3-4 weeks for a woman and 6 months for a man.

Very different from what we taught when we arrived! Dr Harley finally wrote a newsletter on exposure that you should find very interesting. It is over on the newsletter forum.

Thanks Mel,
Maybe I do need to back and bone up.

I will read the articles you suggested.

Good to hear from you my old friend. My grandson spent 5 weeks with me this summer and I can't tell you how much he has changed my life!!!!

All Blessings,
Jerry

You lucky dog!! My son is getting married on October 23rd and I am hoping for a grandchild someday. So happy you have a grandson! It couldn't have happened to a better guy.

Grandkids, awesome battery chargers for grandparents.

I agree - the changes the BS makes to THEMSELVES in Plan A should be continued for the rest of their lives. The ability and willingness to meet ENs absolutely MUST continue.

But there are several elements of Plan A, which MAKE it plan A, which are abusive. The expectation of no reciprocity, of getting your needs met, the dealing with the wayward behavior, the use of the stick and demands. All these are essential elements of Plan A that have no place in a recovered marriage.

The reason I make a distinction is that often, people come here they think they need to 'Plan A' when it isn't warranted, they think they must give and give and give without expectation of getting anything back while this is happening. When there is no affair, this is abusive.



I'll admit, I'm a novice. There is a lot for me to learn. I've only been posting a few months. I try to learn from everyone else here, so post some more

Vibrissa, you are a bonafide "veteran" in my book. You have worked very hard to educate yourself and I marvel at the wisdom and knowledge reflected in your posts. I am grateful you are here and proud to post beside you.