What are you offering him that is better than his options? In other words, what can you offer him that is more appealing than spending the day golfing with a friend?

I really don't think saying you are going out with girlfriends is going to be the ticket.

What needs of his are you meeting? What protections are you offering for the marriage?

I see a lot of complaints about him, and I understand there are things to complain about. But complaining, especially to us, accomplishes very little to build a marriage.

What is your plan to rebuild romantic love? I doubt telling him you are going out with girlfriends is going to do that.

Think about it this way. Read your description of how exciting it was for you with the other man. Now, what are you doing to make your marriage that exciting for your husband?

Because while you want that for yourself, doesn't your husband deserve the same thing that you want? Doesn't he deserve a marriage where it's just so over the top exciting for him that he's addicted to you?

But not in a bad, dishonest way like an affair, but in a good, I love you more than anything else way, like husbands and wives each generally want from each other.

The details may be different for each of you, but there is no reason you can't make his love life with you as awesome as you describe your affair.

So my question is what are you doing to make your husbands experience with you as good if not better than those things you loved about the other man?

If you are not doing that, then you really have no room to complain about what he doesn't do for you.

Hitch,

The answer to your question depends on how long you want to be treated like his mother.

He gets away with stuff with his mother, because he KNOWS she won't let him go.

He may not realize he is treating you the same way, but it might help to express to him you are not his mother and you don't appreciated being treated as he does her, or how she treats other people.

You think have some choices to make. He may be a lousy husband right now, but I can assure you he is even worse at mindreading.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Hitch, this mother thing bears some scrutiny. Both yours and his. The mums seem to have significant influence.

You said at one point that you put your mother on a pedestal.

The question I have is what patterns of her behavior vis-a-vis your stepfather are you replicating with your H? (I guarantee you there are some.)

The next question is are the patterns you are replicating of value to your M?

You are you, not your mom. Your H is your H, not your stepfather. Your mom and stepfather have their own dynamic, but as children we only see bits of it. Mom does X, that makes him happy. Mom may resent the hell out of doing X or she may do it with joy in her heart. Stepdad may not care as much as Mom thinks he does about X, but it seems to give her satisfaction to do it, or he may care so deeply about her doing X that he's not bothered by her resentment, or he may be completely clueless. Same thing the other way around.

That's the underground stuff that you may sense but never know.

What I'm getting at is the myriad assumptions we bring to M are not just a function of our experience with out spouses. They are also informed by what we saw in M as children.

My parents have been married for over 50 years. It is sick and toxic -- it makes me physically ill to watch them dance their emotional dance, but it is what they have chosen. I wish my parents had divorced 30 years ago, or sooner.

Many of my issues with my M are the result of following my mother's model expecting my H to respond like my father. How could I not? I didn't have anything else to look at.

Your H's mother has the same sort of power over how he handles you and the M. JL is right -- your H will treat you like his mother so long as you let him. But I also believe your H is a grown man who likely resents the power and influence his mother still has over him. Is he going to start acting like a man or continue to be a child? I wouldn't put it to him that bluntly, but if he is any sort of man at all he wants to cut those apron strings on some level -- your job is to figure out what the level is and sharpen the scissors.

I would not apologize to your MIL -- ever. She isn't the sort of person who will take that in the spirit intended. She is the sort of person who will file that away to use when/if your H gets around to the difficult business of cutting the apron strings. Besides, and this is a bit of a t/j, I don't understand this notion that the WS owes an apology to the BS's family. Doesn't apply to me, so nuff said.

I think if you will take some time to study the relationships in your and your H's families of origin you may find some clues to help you navigate this maze.

All the posters above have made excellent points. I also agree that you have a lot to work on in your communication and respect for each other. Let me ask a few questions.

When he came in and just went about his business to breeze back out why didn't you challange him on it? I imagine you just expected something different and made no plans together for tonight, why not? Are you still stuck in unhealthy habits?

I think this is how he acted with Mom and its a habit that worked for him then except he does not see his "escape" behavior that he might have needed then has become a habit that he doesn't need now. Now that he is away from her he can take the time to ask his wife how she feels, what does she want to do, and make plans to be with her.

Its said that your Mom is your real first girlfriend to a boy. Its where you learn how to act and what to expect and in this case he got screwed and she really hurt him bad. Instead of fairness and freedom he was taught fear and emotional guilt tactics by damaged woman. He must learn that its over and that he has you now and stop running scared, you are here to love him and help him see.

In other words he has a chance to be in a loving and respectful relationship instead of the one he had with his brutish controlling mom and he just doesn't see it. We are creatures of habit and as long as nothing comes along to change it, we take the line of least resistance. Like water down a hill.

Remember now this IS an emotional issue between him and you and needs to be dealt with, its how you approach it that not only effects its success, but more important right now to us because we can only help you cuz you are here, how you will feel about yourself later.

We can be more objective about it than you can because it hurts and confuses you on how to get love from him. Let me ask a few more questions that maybe will bring some kind of definition.

Does he KNOW his Mom is toxic and has done damage to his abilty to have relationships? Does he KNOW how it has done so? The details of how he avoids open and honest communication or even how he doesn't seem to wait and see if he can do something like go play golf, or ask? He just does it with hope he wont get in trouble. This kind of avoidance and the description you have given of his Mother sounds like he doesn't believe he will be treated fairly because his Mom never showed him that treatment, so he just takes everything desparatly. Untill a bomb goes off, then he gets even and it brings him no peace.... He is still a scared boy and its made him act callous and selfish. How will you help him see that without being that way yourself is the challange before you and the responsibility to yourself.

There is an old saying, "Hurt people will hurt people" Well it doesn't have to keep the circle of pain going if you wont be part of it. You do NOT go out with an attitude of getting even or just because he did. You do what you want to do, is that try to help him see? Do you tell him you don't like it and need to talk? Do you give him every chance to start over and have a great marriage and put everything in the past?

Let me ask you. Did he say he wanted to get away from his Mom and have a different life than she does? Did you feel the same way as that about your parents in some ways? Maybe you have some issues too you can't see yet, thats OK, thats what we are here for and the 2X4s are for.


If what I suspect is true, that you both wanted a marriage different than the ones your parents had, or at least some of the things they had, then this is your chance to start changing yourselves and your habits and disciplines.

Can you trust each other enough to seek fighting this battle together?

How would you like to be told that you had a blind spot? To your face with openess and sincere honesty and concern or would you just like to be hit with accusations and then deserted? You guys allready tried that with your affairs and it didn't work did it? Now both of you have got to sit down and admit you need help, like we all do sometimes, and follow a plan, like we all need all the time, to recovery.

If we run away from that the same problems stay with us wherever we go. Its seems unfair we have to find out we need help just at the same time we need it. If we could only be forewarned we think, but unfortunatly thats how it works. You have not come here by accident and its not to late for either of you or your marriage. Your problems arrived right on schedule and your help is whithin the MB plan and the people on this forum, and in that order BTW. To bad we can't appreciate the fact that understanding is a gift we might not have if it were not for adversity and when we have a chance to help and love another its a priveledge not a curse.

I rambled, I'm sorry but my immediate advice is to tell him you are not happy with his IB and not done working on your marriage with him. That also means he better get crackin on MB and whatever other help he might need to be the man you want, need, and desire to be in love with for the REST OF YOUR LIFE. You WILL NOT do something as damaging to yourself again as have an affair or harbor resentment for his behavior so be ready to hear about it when he hurts you and your feelings better be important as his are to you.

Maybe others here have an idea as to when you should move into a Plan B if he wont come to the MB table. Plan B is the ONLY move you should make BTW. DO NOT become what he is acting like. Have more respect for yourself and don't be poisoned by his IB.


You have all the tools to do this, and so doesn't he. No excuses Hitch

Update;

When h went out Saturday night, I did challenge him and said I hope this time you will come home and he said he will be. I told him where I was going and he said he may go there with his friends too, I said oh that would be nice. Anyway I went out and later on that evening my husband turned up in the bar with his friends. Also by coincidence one of the OW happened to be in there too. Whilst I was sat with my friends the OW approached my husband at the bar, they were stood there chatting so I went over to them, and said to my husband are you having a nice evening, and then looked at her straight in the eyes and said 'hi' and smiled, and continued to stare at her and she walked off and left. The my H, said what did you do that for she was only saying hello, and I said I would like to remind you that you are married and it was disrespectful to me to talk to her whilst I am in the same bar. One of his friends then piped up, stop Hitch, it is done with her. I then walked back over to my friends. Seeing my H stood at the bar with her, felt like my heart had been ripped out. It made everything so real as I had never seen him with a OW before.

The next morning my H and I talked about it, and asked me why I done that? I asked him how we would have felt if I was stood there with OM chatting whilst he was in the same room, he said he did not approach her she approached me, and I said yes you can't control her but you can control yourself you could have said hi and then gone to the toilets. Then he said - Hitch when we go out together in the future we are going to bump into the OW, you have to be able to deal with it. I said I will be able to deal with it, if we have a plan of how we are going to handle it, so I feel safe.

Then we spent the day together yesterday, and my old husband seemed back. He talked about getting stuff done on the house (its currently on for sale), almost like we will be staying here.

Then we went out for dinner in the evening, and after 10 mins of sitting down, he announced that he would like to go away for a week on his own, then I said to him my GF have invited me away but I don't really feel like going. He said I should it would do me good. I didn't like this.

I feel like he was playing games with me, one minute saying things like when we go out together in the future, then telling me plans he is making.

After a glass of wine he seemed a lot more relaxed and clearly wanted us to stay chatting in the restaurant, and we started to talk about his business again and how we needed someone 'in the back office' to grow the business. He said he thought I would be very good at that as I was bright and articulate, and he asked me why I didn't do that before in the r'ship when he asked me to. I said because then I didn't feel as though we could take the risk of losing one permanant salary. I also told him that I always believed and admired him and know that he is going to do very well and that I also thought we would be a great team.

Then he bought up the affair (he was very relaxed now and being warm), and said in some way some good has come out of it as he has looked at himself and seen that he is not actually that perfect as he always thought he was and he has imperfections, i then responded well I don't think your imperfections or all that bad at all, and look at me and what I did. I said it is all about growing and learning.

He seems to be doing a lot of thinking at the moment, but I am getting very mixed messages.

Some one tell me what is going on and what I need to do? Still feeling anxious after seeing OW on Sat night.

Can I just add this is HUGE progress from where things were a month ago, so I should I continue to hang in there. Like what SH said to me, if he wanted to be with the OW he would be and he is not.

In my opinion he is acting independant and it doesn't seem right. I will have to think about it but more experienced vets should be on to guide you soon on how to handle it..

Thanks constant getting pretty upset. Just found out that a friend of mine is pregnant, feeling really upset like life is passing me by and he can't make his mind up. I spoke to him this morning and said that how about we take the house off the market whilst we see if we can work things out. He said he will think about it. Feeling like I am having to put on a brave face and could burst into tears any moment.

Hitch2007,
I think you have your husband thinking now, he is seeing the possibilites of a new way between you two even though the change for him comes from the affair......
You have to really think what you want in your life when something like that happens, for you and him......
I think you handled yourself well in the bar, he is still your husband and you stood up for that right, with calm and love.....
My guess is he is somewhere in the middle, weighing things out.....communication is key here, just keep telling him that you love him, want to stay in a good marriage and you will be willing to work to get to that......
Don't be to forceful, make him think about his choices and what his life will be when everything he knows as his life will be gone......put that picture in his mind and heart and watch him realize that he has everything thing now......
Keep yourself busy, look good, smell good......if he sees a happy, fun loving woman........he will fall in love all over again......

All I'm seeing is all talk but no action. I am sorry to say this but it sounds like he is still gas lighting you. Do not let him go away for a whole week a lone, that will be your biggest mistake.

Hi EE

Do you have any ideas on how I can build that romantic love? I am doing thinks like giving him compliments, helping him with his business, making an effort to look nice ect..

Thanks

hitch

Thanks Jessitaylor - I am doing all those things you suggested. It was hard seeing the OW on Sat night, and keeping busy when all I want to do is sort things out with him.

I guess you could say I am having a really bad day one of those days that I just want to be over. I am feeling very anxious and thinking negatively. I need to focus on keeping busy, but hearing about friends moving forwards with their lives when I am stuck in this situation is frustrating. I know I bought it on myself.

When I spoke to my H this morning, we had another talk. He was very frustrated again, and said that he thought it was wrong of me to approach him in the bar. He is very secretive with the phone and even takes it in the shower with him. He also said dont take this the wrong way but the thought of having SF with you is repulsive and how are we going to get past that. I said that I know there are many hurdles but I believe we can get through them together. He said he needs some space and I have been really good but I can't keep asking him where he is going and what he is doing. I thought we were making progress and then this morning, he just sounded like there was no hope. I almost feel that he is cake eating and when he is hungover, tired or has nothing to do he wants me and gives positive signals and then when he is busy or got stuff going on, he makes it all feel hopeless again. he said he was going shopping today, but I wonder if he is with someone today. He always keeps his phone faced downwards and he had a text early this morning. Maybe I am been paranoid. He also said its just not the affair it is how things were before then, that I always said something was missing. To be honest I did feel this way some of the time, but only because of how he contributed towards the relationship, like I said, I didn't know how to communicate this.

Having a really bad day I hate this and I am starting to resent him for the way he is treating me.

Maybe you were right JL, he doesn't want to be the one that ends the marriage, maybe he wants me to do it all for him. Before when we discussed how we were going to split the assets he thought what I was asking was unfair and I am starting to wonder that the only reason he is here is because that he will lose his beloved house and the joint second house we own and he will have to downsize. He bought that up aswell this morning, talking about what I was asking for as part of the split was unfair, and feel like he is trying to get me to agree to a good settlement whilst he has got this 'hold' over me. he also said that I had some very good qualities but maybe we are just not right for each other and maybe a I need to let go. I just said that I loved him and wanted to fight for our marriage and will continue to do this.

Sorry I am rambling, but not having a good day. I just want to feel normal again.

I want to go and stay at my mothers for a couple of nights to get a breather and get strong again, but not sure whether this is a good thing.

Like I said...All I see is ALL talk but no action. (from your husband)

I think you might need a plan B

Sapphire

I think you might be right about Plan B, however one of the things he was really mad about was that I packed my stuff and left last year, he hated me for doing this and keeps going on about saying, I told you when you left last year that I would move on and find someone else.

Why would he gas light me? What does this mean?

Hmmm...sounds to me he is still a wayward, I said the EXACT same thing when wheel's kicked me out, my exact words were...

"Kick me out again, and I'll never come back!"

So go to plan B, he is still a wayward.

I feel sick - I just rang his phone he hasn't answered I know he is with someone else.

I don't now if he is definetly with someone else, but I have rang twice and he has not answered.

Why are you asking me? I don't mean to sound flippant, but he's the one in charge of what his needs are, his vision of such a marriage.

I can give some direction, but I can't tell you what to do.

What did you do when you were dating? What worked and what didn't work? What did he like, and to what did he just say, "meh."

Have you asked him? Have you asked him to paint a word picture of his dream marriage? If not, why not? It sure beat's the, "we have to talk" kind of discussions that guys usually take me to mean, "we have to talk about what you are doing wrong."

No ambush, no criticism, no suggestions for what he can do better. Simply ask him what his dream marriage would look like.

Then do it.

Thanks enlightened I will do just that.