stillstanding2,
You said that you saw my thread. Probably made you RUN AWAY!! Hope that something I posted helped you.

I have come to the sad conclusion that there is no chance for this R to ever work. There's:
no trust
no respect
no honor
no commitment
I would always fear another A and I question the ongoing R he has with some of the women that he has done work for. It just seems quite strange and I know that he would not tolerate in me the same type of R.
My next step is to figure out how to start closing the door, one inch at a time. I used to smoke and quit cold turkey. I know I need to do this cold turkey, too but, know that I won't be able to.
I have been praying and need to pray longer and more often. I want to close the door and move on with the rest of my life as I have spent too many years and too much of my time looking back.

This times 10 "The urge passes if you replace your ex with other people." --StillStanding. And to recap, you pick up the phone and call family and friends, not just another man.

L2S, You really need to practice some cognitive exercises. They have helped me amazingly. When I say to myself "Why me?" I then think about all the really good stuff in my life. I also remind myself about all the bad stuff that happens to others. The pity party ends pretty quickly then.

You probably would benefit from reframing every thought such as "You all must think I'm a loser." You can change this one to "Wow. They must see how deeply human I am." Or even "It sure takes courage on my part to tell people my weaknesses."
Here's the really cool thing about these exercises (aside from not breaking a sweat): You don't even have to believe them for them to start working!!!!! It's kind of a game you play with yourself in the beginning. And when you reframe a negative self thought like "Something is really wrong with me that I'm attracted to men who are bad for me" to "I've sure learned a lot and come a long way in my lifetime. Anyone who earns my love will be blessed by my hard-earned wisdom." When you say that, you may think immediately after "Oh, my word! What malarky!" THEN, you have to think "Yeah, but there's some truth there, and I'm really persistent."

Behavior and Thoughts affect each other. Change behavior and you change thoughts. Change thoughts and you change behavior. So, if you want to improve your life, the trick is figuring out whether it is most efficient and effective to change your thoughts first or your behavior first. I'm a thoughts person myself.

So, if you're having a problem putting things into action--like ending this mal-relationship--try getting at it from the other end.

Greengables and All,
I thank you so much for your insight and wisdom and for continuing to engage me in "conversation" as I seem unable to take the sage advice given.
My XH has always had the ability to twist words to make me doubt myself (and my sanity).
Right now, he's trying to make me believe that the reason my family and my D dislike him is because of lies I told them. I've wracked my brain for things I said that were untrue. I come up with nothing. He blames me for telling my family that he was involved with women that he denies being involved w/but his cousin is the one who knew and told.
I know deep down inside that a) this won't work as it never really did post marriage and b) this isn't really the life I want to live for whatever time I have left.
I just need to get my heart and my head on the same page.
I'm really not a stupid person but I act stupidly when it comes to him.

One minute he's saying he's going to move. The next, that he would like for us to remain friends after he starts dating. I can't be friends w/him b/c I have feelings. I don't see how folks do that.
I don't want to remain here in no man's land.

For any of you that have been on this type of rollercoaster ride post divorce, what did it finally take for you to close the door?

Whenever he and I "talk" I feel my head swelling to the point of explosion and I know my blood pressure must be through the roof.

Whenever we are around each other w/no pressure, I find myself falling for him all over again. But, the second reality sets in and there's a difference of opinion about something or we start "talking" about what it would take to fix our R, it goes south quickly.

He is OCD and some of it drives me crazy. Some of it makes sense like the handwashing and putting papertowels on bathroom door handles when you have to touch them and you're getting ready to eat. Some of it is just irritating.

I don't know why this is so blasted difficult but it is. It saps my energy and makes my head hurt and on and on and on.

Why do I keep on with this? I frustrate myself with it. And, I'm scared of choosing someone else like him in the future.

GGGGRRRRRRR.

For those of you, especially men, that have read my older posts preD plus recent posts, I would like to know your thoughts on the following:
1 - Has my XH continued to ask about us getting back together b/c he wants to resume a R and maybe remarriage or am I just a potential quick means to an end, that end being health insurance and help w/company plus I am easily manipulated?
2 - At his age (mid 40s) is it likely that he would stop having As and stop the questionable Rs with other women or just go underground with it?
3 - If he was truly sorry and repentent where the As are concerned, how would he act differently? What would I see that I am not seeing now?
4 - What are the warning signs that would tell me that there has been no change that could sustain a R?

I have my own opinions about the above but would like to hear from others, especially men, and women who have lived w/men like the one I have described.


I definitely have faults of my own - I wouldn't be sitting at the computer right now if I didn't b/c I would have a life!!!!!

Based on no one's knowledge and giving you merely my opinions...

Yes. In my opinion you're being played. You should stop allowing this right away.

Do you know why I called my ex-wife The Leopard? She's not the only one. At your H's age, what do you think?

Step back a bit and try to look at the situation dispassionately. What do you see? "As" is plural, not singular.

You know better than anyone. However, I remind you of the saying, "nothing changes if nothing changes."

Caveat Emptor.

Your thread did help me run away - FROM MY EX!!! You can do this. Start by ending contact for just one day. Then do it again. And again. Fill the loneliness with other people (and, no, not just another man). There are people that love me and want to help me. I let them. I love them back and return the favor of helping them too. I have the best friends in the world!! I didn't realize how wonderful my friends were until I stopped focusing on my ex and looked around me at all the people that truly love me. I am truly blessed.

You have not wasted your time. You are learning. You are growing. Some people take longer to figure stuff out and process the lessons that life wants to teach you. You know what you need to do - AND, YOU CAN DO IT.

L2S, You are dealing with a master manipulator. Manipulators become master manipulators once they recognize the efficacy of sometimes being swell people. They can often have a certain type of empathy that allows them know when to pour on the charm and when to go Mr. Hyde.

You've already pointed out that your X plays with at least 2 rule books. Also, he looks upon you as his property, cattel. Just because he doesn't want you to find someone else, doesn't mean he wants to be in a marriage relationship with you.

My guess is that your X has serious character flaws that may even be part of a personality disorder. Can he change? Yes, but only by going through fire. His life would have to crumble around him in order for him to have sufficient motivation to completely overhaul himself. This is unlikely to happen at all. It definitely won't happen if he has you around. He may change, but not for you, and I doubt very much you would ever reap the benefit of that change.

I know that sounds terribly harsh. It is. I could be wrong. But I don't think so.

And just in case I wasn't clear, you CANNOT believe a word out of this man's mouth. You also cannot believe his actions or his body language. He's a liar of the first order.

Every word Greengables says is the absolute truth. My (ex-)wife turned out to have Borderline Personality Disorder, and GG has pegged the way these people mold themselves and their behaviors to a "t."

They have gotten to the point where they can't help themselves. And because they don't believe they have a personality problem, they are often beyond the help of others. Professionals included.

I spent months studying personality disorders. I even consulted with a psychiatrist (at $150 an hour) and received an "unofficial" diagnosis of her. My knowledge has made it much easier for me to deal with the way she shattered our marriage and did so in such an abrupt and black-and-white fashion.

Consider GG's words carefully. None of us can make a diagnosis, but you have the evidence at hand that may be all you need to make a determination for yourself.

I've been taking a long hard look at XH and his circumstances over the last few weeks. I'm trying to be dispassionate about everything and looking at the situation from the perspective of "is this really what I want the rest of my life to look like".

The answer is "no".

Whenever I do ANYTHING that doesn't include him, his response is "well that's good", spoken in a sarcastic tone. But, whenever he visits a friend or makes a plan to take a trip (can only assume that what he says is true) I say "good for you. You work hard and need to take a break. Hope you have fun." I never get that.

He is deeply in debt due to doing things for his two mid 20s children. He is constantly bailing the son out of something. The son is 24, twice divorced (got both pregnant before marriage), so has two children by two women and now has girlfriend pregnant. I know this isn't my XH's fault but I know my life would constantly be affected by his son.

I'm trying to pull back and do things w/o him. Had lunch with couple of girlfriends yesterday and that was fun.

Off to work.

life2short,

I've been following your thread for a while now. I know you want to hold on to the hope that somehow you and your XWH can recover your marriage - but do you realize that you are doing the one thing that makes *certain* that will never happen?

Love can't exist without respect. This man has zero respect for you. Why? Because you don't require him to respect you.

He throws you crumbs and leftovers, and you eat them up and beg for more. This is a terribly cruel and disrespectful way to treat anyone, but you simply hang around and wait for more. This makes him look down at you with contempt. "See? L2S is weak. She is way far beneath me. I can take her or leave her - and I do, because she lets me."

I know you secretly believe that he keeps coming around because somehow he still loves you and wants to be with you. We are trying to tell you that that is NOT what this is.

He plays you and manipulates you and throws you crumbs because he enjoys seeing you dance to his tune and dangle at the end of his string. Why? Because it feeds his ego. He is still a player and a fence-sitter and you are just one more woman in his harem. This is a terrible way for you to be treated, but as long as you allow it he will never, ever stop.

YOU will have to put a stop to it.

How do you do that?

Plan B, L2S. Plan B. It ain't just for married folks anymore.

I have been legally divorced for a year and a half but in a solid, deep dark Plan B for over two years. It's the only way I can stomach the situation at all. I cannot imagine living as you are.

I would point out that in your own way you are as big a fence-sitter as your XWH, because you are behaving neither as a married person nor as a divorced person but trying to somehow live between both worlds. This never, ever works, as you have seen.

So. As I said: If you actually did want to have the slightest 1% chance of reconciling with XWH, your full-time plan would have to be Earning His Respect.

How do you do that?

With Plan B. Plan B would show him that you are neither helpless nor weak - and most of all, it would show him that you are NOT any man's toy and NOT any man's crumb-picker. Not any more.

I hope you will consider this. The way you are going now, you have zero hope of reconciling (because he will never respect you and you don't love or marry people you don't respect) and zero hope of moving on to a better life with someone else (because you are still dangling at the end of XWH's string and being his toy).

Plan B. It ain't just for married folks anymore.

Mulan,
I'm starting to accept the simple facts you stated above: he does not love me. He manipulates me.

I do believe your Plan B suggestion is probably the only hope I have of ending this cycle. He went to his DD's this past weekend (a few states away) and we seldom talked. When we did it was b/c he called me. He was usually in a bathroom or had to go to the vehicle to get something. I don't believe he was with a woman but was more that he didn't want his children - DS went as well - to hear him talking to me. Why? Maybe b/c he talks bad about me to them - we had a bad R - or b/c he's seeing someone and doesn't want them to tell her??? Who knows.

Was doing paperwork before he left and had questions about a home phone bill. Customer svc rep for the company talked me through logging into the website and looking at the phone bill. Hmmm... Lots of multi minute calls to two phone numbers from the same town. A few that were late night/early AM, i.e. 1:30 AM, etc.

No explanation from him, just a comment during an argument yesterday about how I scanned his phone bill for 12 minutes. He doesn't owe me an explanation as we are not married or in a R, but it goes against him telling me that he isn't seeing anyone. Just more corroborating evidence.

So, I'm beginning to see what I have refused to see all along: He hasn't changed. History is repeating itself.

Thanks everyone for hanging in there with me and being kind and honest enough to point out that he doesn't love me, he is not good for me and that I need to close this door and move forward in my life.

Everyone,
Please bear with me as I put in writing the things I see as they are helping me see the situation as it really is.
Point 1: My DD and I took a short trip this weekend. Just the two of us. If XH called and I did not answer I would get a text msg saying "hope I didn't interrupt anything...". If I ask what he meant he would say "Oh, just wanted to make sure you weren't busy" but what he really meant was "hope I didn't interrupt you in bed w/someone." He does this ALL THE TIME whenenver he cannot get me on the phone. His automatic assumption is that the reason I can't answer b/c I'm in bed w/a man.
Point 2: XH took a trip about 2 wks ago with his son, daughter and daughter's H a few states away. I did not bother him. He called me if he had time - and 99% of the time when he called he was in a bathroom or was "getting something from the car". I told him to have a great time and relax and enjoy himself.
When I took the trip over the weekend I got "Well, that's good. Ya'll have fun." in a sarcastic tone. He called me multiple times and then I got "the text" if I didn't answer.

He says he loves me and wants to make the R work -and that he loves my D - but then constantly accuses me of being a slut. That must be what he thinks b/c he is constantly accusing me of being w/someone wherever I go. Wonder if he accuses me b/c that's what he is doing? Hmmm.....

I'm getting ready to start a weekend school for 8 months (one weekend per month) so I know I'll hear the same and get the accusations that I'm seeing someone there.

He calls and offers to do things for me - pick up food and bring over or buy something I need as he is going to the store - and then, if I say no, he acts offended and says something like "You'll figure it out.".

Anyone that has been following this story and has experience with this type of thing, does he have a personality disorder of some type? I know I'm crazy - just wondering about him.

life - you are stuck in limbo.

He is your ex husband, for very good reason.

It doesn't matter if he has a personality disorder - it's none of your business now. You need to stop communicating with him. You're keeping yourself stuck in limbo.

R is impossible with this man because he wont do the work required to change.

Look at your name.

Now look at it again.

Life is TOO SHORT to waste it on someone who treats you this way - it's too short to keep making yourself crazy.

You need to Plan B him just so you can move on in your life. As you fill your life with things OTHER than him, eventually you'll STOP wondering about him. He will be unable to keep hurting you by implying you're sleeping around. He can't accuse you if he can't communicate with you. And what is it any of his business if you DO see someone? He ISN'T YOUR HUSBAND.


The problem here, is not your husband and any disorder he may have.

It is YOU. It is that you ARE ALLOWING yourself to stay stuck with this man who treats you like crap. It's nice that you care, but care from a little bit further away.

He isn't your problem anymore. Right now you are staying with him at the expense of your own self. It isn't noble, it's desperate.

You know what you need to do.

Someday I hope you have the courage to actually do it.

Whether your ex husband is crazy or not is not your problem.

Your problem is you still hold a candle for him and therefore you can not move on. Once you let him go your life can begin.

L2S, no doubt your XH wants a Fantasy Divorce. Did I send you this link?

He is a very selfish man, and he says the things he does because he enjoys seeing you jump when he yanks your string. You are just one more face in his harem and that's what he wants. He throws you crumbs because that keeps you dangling, and because that keeps HIM in charge with all the power. He's got a collection of women at his beck and call (and you are just one of them.)

Please read this link if you haven't already. And then go to a pitch-black Plan B. As I said above, it's not just for married folks anymore.

Get this toxic nightmare out of your life.

Mulan,
Read part of the thread and what I got out of it was that some think they can D but remain friends. This is definitely XH's pattern as he was in such a R w/his 2nd X at the time I met him. She was taking care of his checkbook for him. Now, I find myself in the same role. She actually came back into his life during our separation and I found letters from her to him saying how much she loved him and wanted us to D so they could get back together.
I don't want to be his 2nd X and have told him that but find that I am exactly that except that they were sleeping together and we are not.
Question: Is there a personality disorder (not hypochondriac) where the person is always sick? Something is always wrong, whether it's a sore back, sore throat, hurt shoulder, upset stomach, headache, nauseated, etc.? Something is always wrong w/them? This describes my XH. He is always sick.

I am really trying to concentrate on the negative and I am really taking a cold hard look at him, our marriage and our current R, such as it is. Why am I there? Are we friends, is there more, or is he just stringing me along for free help w/paperwork. He helps me as well so it's not a one-sided situation but, as long as he is in my life there will be no room for anyone else. And, if I'm around him I cannot be around my famly as there is no R between the two.

L2S your ex sounds like a Sociopath in his actions with you and the 2nd ex-wife.

Profile of the Sociopath

# Glibness and Superficial Charm

# Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

# Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

# Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

# Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

# Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

# Incapacity for Love

# Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

# Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

# Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

# Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

# Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

# Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

# Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

# Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.