Did he KNOW that would make you feel uncomfortable? Had you come to an agreement that he would not put x's on texts BEFORE he did? I don't see it as disrspectful unless you had specifically addressed it because of all the Brits I know who do it.

BH,

See, you automatically jumped to HIM not making progress instead of being open minded that YOU might be constributing greatly to the siutation. HE has never said anything on his thread even close to what I have observed - it is just an objective third party reading what YOU have written and seeing a demanding shrew.

Brit a standard birthay no problem with what you said a birthday where WS is making amends and Promised to make it special as a show of commitment to changing and getting on the recovery train, definitley missed the mark. I can honestly say for years and years I was lucky to just get a card from him and I didnt complain then at all as he hadnt taken my heart of my chest and trodden on it by having an Affair and making me feel like a worthless old rag in the process. Things are different now and for someone who shows little care for me 364 days a year you would assume that it wouldnt be to much to ask for him to make extra effort on one day.

And as far as the x thing goes, he set it as a boundry! he did know, stupid as it sounds thats how the first A started, a little x here a little facebook poking there and hey presto pants down in a hotel room. So it was a set in stone boundry. and one set by himself with Steve Harleys guidence. I dont naturally do it as I assume it would make him feel uncomfortable and i feel it would be disrispecful to him but he shouldnt have done it as its a boundry. I think there is a full list of his own/Steve set boundries list on his thread for reference.

I understand you are laid back and have your point of view Brit I really do I am just frustrated and just plain tiered of defending myself. I am far from perfect and he has many good qualities and I do know that but he has to stop doing stupid stuff without taking my feelings into consideration.

No, BH, I am not laid back, in fact, I am very much a type A personality but I have learned through years of experience what matters and what does not and how to love and be loved by a man.

Brit seriousely enough, Who said anything about fawning all over me?? if you really want im happy to give you a brakedown of what an ideal day would be for me.

wake up cuddled up to H hearing I love you wouldnt go amiss
make kids breakfast together
Open presents and card (hopefully with a message that does not repeat the same old I will change this time, dont care what else he says even if its just love you hunny, but dont go on about changing again when he writes that in every card and does not follow through)
Have a little plan for the day, walk in a park after dropping kids at school/nursery.
Hearing a few nice things like, you look nice etc would be a bonus
get a few nice surprises throughout the day (nothing major, a love letter, a small teddy, a red rose/carnation anything romantic)
just spending quality time together.
After the kids go to bed have a nice bath, watch somethng funny, read something together.

Does that sound to you like hard work?? What makes this day differet is that he has a plan and he follows it through the day so i dont stand there like a lemon going "so hun what are we doing now?"

Oh and just to clarify, A few weeks ago WS asked me to stop asking him if i looked ok after i got dressed to go out as he wanted the opportunity to tell me I looked nice all by himself ( I beleive this was documented on MB at the time) forward a few weeks, I stopped asking and he doesent say a thing. So dont think for one moment I dont communicate my needs to him im well aware he isnt a mind reader, He knows exactly what works and what doesent. And he makes the choices he has made fully aweare of this.


DJ noted and wont be repeated thanks for pointing it out

BH,

It is my understanding your husband did a number of sweet things for your birthday, not just give you a digital picture frame and that was it for the day, didn't he give you a little bath melt shaped as a cake with hearts on it? When you told him about how you had triggered at work, yes, he didn't handle it well at first, but didn't he shortly thereafter turn round and apologize and show understanding? Didn't he take you out with friends to celebrate? I've been to leicester square and know that wasn't an inexpensive evening out. Was he affectionate?

Your examples sound like something off of television or a novel instead of facing the realities of day to day life.

Brit he gave me the bath melt friday (4 days after birthday) I did appreciate it and told him so.
The outing was great I got to spend an evening with my best friend (this is rare and takes military style organisation to achieve as we have 7 kids between us and shift work patterns that make thing very difficult for all of us to go out together, this was the first time we managed to coordinate in 6 years and it took 5 grandparents and alot to make it happen ) we went to a comedy club and laughed till my cheeks hurt. He was affectionate and yes I was withdrawn but it wasnt done on purpose I am hurt and I have to self preserve at times and thats the way I do it. How can I let my guard down when he has let me down?? he tells me all the time he doesent get it, he doesent get MB he doesent get humility, he doesent get my EN's, he doesent get feeling bad about what he did, he just doesent get it. I dont tell him he doesent get it, he tells me he doesent get it.

Here is the best example I can give you of how I think.

I dont "get" what it takes to be a good mum (some are trivial things like organic food or standard food, best ways of disipline, meeting their educational needs) as I wasnt raised by one but do you think for one moment that I would give up on trying to understand and putting in practice how to be a good mum. I read, ask,talk, lean, exchange ideas, research and do everything in my power to be the best I can be for my babies because thats what love is. WS approach would be to sit back and just say I dont get it lets move on to the next subject.

As far as handling the trigger goes I guess my expectations were high as I was told on MB that I had to stop hiding triggers from him and tell him about them when they happen to give him a change to show progress. When he gave me a flippant response to something that I said with tears in my eyes, it hurt and yes after i pointed out to him that it would have been nice for him to just acknowledge my pain thats when he went off to think and came back with an apology, the moment had well passed and the damage was done, I trusted him with my feelings and he dismissed them. Brit we are 2 years post A now the reaction he gave to the trigger is something you would expect from a newbie MBer only just post D Day. He has been here long enough to know better.

I just wanted to make a comment.

I am a FWW, and when my husband's 31st birthday came up last month I MADE sure that he not only had the best day ever! But the BEST WEEKEND EVER!!

I am sorry to say this brit, but she has a RIGHT to complain because of what he did to her, because I am STILL trying to make up everything I have done to my husband wheels. By doing so I wanted him to have the best birthday that he would remember.

I wanted to show my husband that I was dead serious on making this marriage work!

I cleaned
I cooked
I baked his cake (it was YUMMY by the way)
I bought him gifts
He slept in while I took care of the kids
etc...

I wanted him to have a great birthday!

If he doesn't react to even her birthday? I don't know....two days till plan B right??

Now I am seriousely doubting myself, do I lower my expectations and be grateful or do I go to plan B??

Just woke up after the strangest dream ever. I was at a social event and ran into OW who was in a wheelchair after being involved in a road accident (first thought was, finally Karma has caught up but then I really felt sorry for her), I got talking to her and she was a real mess so I was trying to help her feel better and look after her, she then reveals that her and WH had made a video of their encounter, I ask to see it and fall apart all over again. So woke up feeling slightly shaken up. Cant I get any rest even in my sleep?

Hi BH,
I've been following your thread for a while. Just wanted to give you some encouragement. We have a lot in common. H's who don't respect boundaries, who we don't feel safe with, etc.

I just went into Plan B and I'm not going to lie. It is so hard. I question whether or not I did the right thing. But bottom line, I can't keep hoping that my H will get it. Because right now, he does the bare minimum (and really blames me for having to do anything at all). and that's not a marriage. And I don't want my son to grow up thinking that you are only good to your spouse when you get what you want.

So anyway, just wanted to give you some virtual hugs and tell you that you are certainly not alone.

-txnatheart

BH, plan B is the right step to take, because emotionally you can't do this anymore, and that LB of yours is starting to say "empty"

Plan B is designed for you to keep the little love units you have left and start helping yourself, physically, and emotionally. We all know you can't help yourself if he is still in the picture.

Remember that you have all of us.

Brit - I think you need to read the whole history here, including yllan's thread.

The affair ended 2 YEARS ago!!! And this marriage has made almost no recovery - in fact there was a second burgeoning EA only weeks ago on the part of her husband.

Yes, BH may be having trouble with LBs - but she is TAPPED OUT by having to live with a wayward for over 2 YEARS. Her husband has made very few improvements, despite being here and despite counseling with Steve. Her husband has NOT been a good partner in overcoming this affair.

I think it understandable that BH is unable to contain her rage and anger. She has stayed in this situation WAY too long - she need to get out.

She was cheated on with multiple EAs, she was cheated on while pregnant, and then had to watch her husband go to work with the OW for (I may be mistaken here) nearly a YEAR! When EPs were put in place - her husband proceeded to BREAK them and engage in another inappropriate relationship UNDER HER ROOF. On top of that she has a husband who has PHYSICALLY ABUSED HER so that police were called and a report filed. To top it off she has a husband who cites incompetence when she tries to get him to meet her needs.

And she HAS told him, explicitly, what she needs. I suggested an exercise a couple weeks ago where they do JUST THAT. Sit down and make lists of what actions will meet her needs. He promises and doesn't deliver - like when he said he wanted to compliment her on his own so she could stop fishing for compliments. She stopped - and got no compliments.

Really - it's understandable why BH is where she is at. She has been mentally and emotionally and PHYSICALLY put through the wringer by a selfish, self-centered, serial adulterer.

She's tapped out.

And as for the birthday thing:



That doesn't sound like it's out of a movie or beyond ridiculous of an expectation.

Really it doesn't.

I expect more from my husband on my birthday- and he delivers beyond those expectations.

Really this is pretty low key and reflects that all she wants is to know her husband loves her and thinks she is special. All it is is time together and thoughtful, loving acts of kindness and care.

And you know - based on Yllan's thread - he KNOWS she likes little thoughtful gifts and treats...he just doesn't feel like doing them because he doesn't feel they'll give him the payback he's looking for. He wants some BIG gesture or act to FIX everything so things can just 'go back to normal'. He doesn't get that he needs to change and become a completely new husband. Until he gets that - BH needs to be away from him. (And yes, I've discussed this with him on his thread).

BH I really think you should call the Harleys and try to get on the radio show.

Vibrissa,

I have read both their threads - every post - from the outset and have been following along. For the record, since my story has long been closed (been hanging around these boards since 2002), I am the BS. I have walked BH's shoes, much longer than she has as my XH's A lasted 3 years before we divorced. A lot of what I see from both of them is two, very immature individuals. YES, Illyanoitome had an affair - VERY WRONG. BUT he ended it and is still there trying to do what BH asks of him but what I am seeing is her bar/expectations are vague, high level requests and she fails to appreciate the little things he is doing to try and recover their marriage. I look at what she writes and what he writes and I can't help but think he's verbally abused and doesn't know how to react because nothing he does or ever does will be enough for her. For his part, I think he is emotionally unavailable and no matter how much BH demands, he is not going to become emotionally available overnight and he is not going to be able to address it until he recognizes it. I will add on that through all of this, they both still have the responsibilities and obligations to meet - taking care of their children and going to work at their jobs, neither of which allows for the 24/7 attention/devotion BH seems to demand.

I think the wisest thing they can do is counsel with the Harleys again. I would highly recommend BH and her husband read the Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans and books on emotional unavailability.

I don't disagree with you there.



I think, initially, she was vague. I do think she has gotten better. I don't know that I agree that her requests/ expectations are too high. She has her ENs - she needs them met, whatever they are. From her description I don't think them unreasonable - but that is a matter of opinion and we'll probably disagree on that indefinitely. In the end - our opinions of her ENs have little bearing.

She has ENs. She has a way she needs them met.
Her husband MUST meet them if he wants to have a marriage with her. Now, he may be unable to meet SOME just how she likes them - that is where negotiation comes in. However, he doesn't negotiate. He promises to do them and doesn't. That is a dynamic they will have to overcome in order to make progress.

Now, perhaps the vagueness is due to the fact that BH honestly doesn't know how best to meet her needs - that happens. In that case she needs to spend some time figuring that out to give her husband the best possible information.


I don't doubt that BH is love busting all over the place. She has had troubles with this since she got there. Honestly I think it is because she's WAY past needing to go to Plan B.

They need to stop the abusive cycle they are stuck in. They need to short-circuit their behavior.

I think they BOTH have a lot of work to do.


I agree - but I think he is expecting it to happen overnight, hence why he doesn't make more little efforts. But I don't think that he'll never be able to meet BH's needs the way she needs them met. It will take time and consistent effort, but it is possible.


I don't think she wants 24/7 attention. I think she's so far in the red that she may THINK she needs 24/7 attention. I am pretty certain that once they BOTH get better at the MB principles, the 15 hours will be sufficient, like it is for most couples.

I believe UA time should be 25-30 hours when a marriage is in trouble. Right now they're not even getting their 15 minimum. BUT they won't even be able to make UA time productive until they learn how to stop hurting each other. Until they stop abusing each other. Their abuse needs to be addressed before they can even begin.



I wholeheartedly agree.

They have already done that, he even made EP's with the harley's and yet never followed through with it.

I think plan B first, and then when he wants to finally recover then they should talk to the harley's.

Hey
I want to really clarify this point, I LB on here as a vent, I dont say things like that to his face or abuse him. I just cut him off because thats easyer for me. The outragious anger I had for a year after the A is gone now its replaced with numbness and pain. I do slate him on here because I cant do it to friends and family as its not right to talk about him like that to them and it would hinder recovery, im not that stupid. I talk like that on here because its the ONLY place I can vent my frustartations among people that understand. I have taken to calmly telling him when he lets me down and why (thats on the occasions that I bother to say anything at all). If he stays quiet (which would normally be an invitation to total angry innialiation) I walk away read a book or turn the TV on. There has been one incident where I major LBd and yelled recently but that was the first in 6 months. Still not right and have learned from it.

I do encourage progress, every time he does something right I tell him so it would be stupid not to encourage progress with someone who takes every opportunity as an excuse to regress. Seriousely people i might be so in love with him that I have out up with alot but that means i have a blind side and not that i am completely dumb.

Plan B is tomorrow, feeling ok about it and hoping the anti anxiety meds work enough to help me let go of him as Plan B can only be done once and well. I will work on the letter tonight when he is at work.

I am all about compromise with him I dont expect him to be a mind reader or to get things 100% right at all. I have stuggled for ideas for his birthday before and even forgot Fathers day this year (yes i was totally mortified) but when you promise your gonna make it good why would you not do that??
Compromise on EN's is also very possible but I dont want him to know that as he wont make the effort to go for what I want and maybe get it right he would take the easy effort free route of compromise or his way which wont work for me.

I have specified to him that as soon as I see some progress ill jump on the recovery train with him and make changes that he would like me to make too. But I wont do that and change and please him again only to be the only one to change and this has been the way things have been so far, Its not fair, he got to give love to get love at this stage. I am not an endless supply of care and patience.

I dont want overnight results a change of attitude would be a start and that will happen when the sentace stops stopping with "I just dont get it" and instead carries on like this " I dont get it but I want to get, can you help me understand this/that, how this works etc"

Brit I dont know what your problem with me is but your comments are very hurtful and judgemental of me. I am not you and my husband is not your husband. I sometimes feel like is should be grateful because my husbands A didnt last long and that it broke easely and he is still here and I really am at times especially when reading some of the most heartbraking threads like scotlands (whom I admire so so so so much) but the situation I am in is bad for me because Its my situation and because it affects me in its own way. I am happy to be 2x4 when I deserve it but right now I am doing things the best I have ever done them and it hurts that thats not good enough.

I will not post to you again. I wish you the very best of luck trying to recover your marriage because being a single mother - even with a dad who is very much in the picture and a very supportive significant other - is VERY challenging on the best of days.

Sheesh, BH28, I dropped a bomb didn't I. I ended up with so much to do yesterday that I had to abandon posting. Sorry.

I haven't even had time to read all of the posts fully. I did read your EN's post and it does sound like you are fairly clear on how you need your needs met. As is repeated OVER AND OVER here, these are YOUR needs and they must be met as YOU prefer, not as your WH desires to meet them. It is not up to him, just as meeting his needs the way he wants is not up to you. You just meet them.

As for your ideal birthday, I gotta say, I have REGULAR days like that with my SO. It's not a fairytale, what you ask. It's reasonable, especially on a special day that you had requested your WH to make special. If he fell short, it IS your responsibility to tell him how, and to thank him for those things that he got spot on.

I agree with Vibrissa and Sapphire, you are out of steam. I wish there was a MB way to just take five and then come back in swinging. There is Plan B, which is risky and could spell the end, but it's either that or continue on as things are going and beat you down further and further.

You cannot expect changes overnight and for everything to turn on a dime. Coming back from the brink takes years, but you have had two years already, and you are drowning.

I think Plan B is the appropriate step.

I am a single mom, and went through three years of multiple false recoveries and caretaking on my own. Sure, I won't lie and say it's easy peasy, but it's a heck of a sight better than suffering as you are. I don't care what anybody says about it; I can do poorly alone, I didn't need my WH's help.