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Quote:
MF, I know you don't want to call anyone out, but I have to wonder if the 'folks' you are curious about either didn't recover their marriages and/or live in marriages that aren't on the road to recovery, but floundering about.


SL, you bring up a great point ~ here is one of my theories on this:

Before MB we thought we had a good M ~ and we did. It wasn't perfect but it was a "good" M. We never even so much as joked about D. We were the envy of many of our friends.

It wasn't until we got into "real" recovery that we realized we had some work to do ~ and we began to see how much better our M could be.

Now we are LIVING this better marriage. I've often wondered if those you have not used the MB program, yet claim to have "good marriages" or "recovered marriages" can even fathom what they are missing by NOT using the MB basic concepts.

Ignorance is not always bliss, in other words.


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
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Originally Posted By: MF
Before MB we thought we had a good M ~ and we did.


Ah, yes, the Z and I did, too. We were one of those couples people thought were just great together. MB taught me a lot about what we were doing OH SO WRONG. Lots of IB's, lots of time apart, lots of holding back on problems to avoid conflict (lack of O&H). Oy! sigh

I can only say that I have incorporated MB in to my life and ALL of my relationships are better because of it.


Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
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Quote:
Lots of IB's


We had this too ~ and we both had some resentment but didn't understand WHY. Afterall, society told us that it was GOOD to have our "own interests" and do things with others and it was ok that our spouse wasn't there...OUCH.

It's amazing to be in a relationship withOUT resentment!

SL ~ is your SO familiar with MB?


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
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Originally Posted By: MF
SL ~ is your SO familiar with MB?


He is AWARE and I have talked openly with him about the policies and about boundaries. I have not asked him to read any of the literature. We have had a lot of time over the last year to talk talk talk talk due to our long distance relationship. Talked a great deal about the affair, the devastation, my attempts to recover and MB.

We have also had our share of conflict, about our kids and about boundaries. We have resolved them by being O&H and POJA.
We are still working at POJA. I still have work to do but I'm not afraid of asking for what I need.


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Sounds great SL, I am so happy for you!


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
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I most certainly agree that since the MB forums are an extension of the MarriageBuilders program (and they're offered to us for FREE, at that!), AND since Dr. Harley pays for the bandwidth, the discussions should most certainly be about how to use the MB programs.

Another thing is the fact that newbies come here looking for MARRIAGEBUILDERS help; otherwise, I assume they would be asking for help on some other forum. Throwing in a bunch of other ideas and opinions can be very confusing to a newbie and distract them from doing the things they need to do in order to save/rebuild their marriages.

Until the board tightened up on the monitoring of the board, it seemed like way too many of the threads were hi-jacked by folks who wanted to point fingers and tell others HOW to post. It really got tiring to have to wade through umpteen posts of people saying, "You're mean!"...blah, blah, blah. These folks mostly seemed to think that we should all be posting a bunch of incoherent psychobabble garbage. Well, excuse me, but I do not have time to sit around posting the same inane crud multiple times in one post, using different flowery sentences.

I can't say that my marriage is a success story, because my WH has never gotten on board; however, it is way better than it used to be, and I credit MB with that. I was able to change many of my own bad behaviors that I previously had not recognized before finding MB. I am still a work in progress!


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

BW M 44 yrs to still-foggy but now-faithful WH. What/how I post=my biz. Report any perceived violations to the Mods.
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Like I said, 1,000 reasons could be named.

For me, I searched the Internet on d-day for help. I searched and found any number of sites.

I came here. I also went to other sites.

I came back here. And back again, and again and again....and you know, I have looked at the other sites maybe three or four times since d-day. Just to see if they have changed anything, offered anything new, or even LEARNED ANYTHING they could teach me.

Hasn't happened. At least not yet.

I come here because I always seem to be able to pick up a new idea here.

I come here because I feel like I can help here.


And I have to say that without Marriage Builders, I honestly believe I would have left my marriage at about the six-month mark, or soon thereafter. I believe this because I would have had no idea that the anger and frustration I felt and the rollercoaster of emotions I was going through was normal. I would have thought that I should have been

OVER IT

by then.


And my idea would have been that since my H had cancer I should be able to put the past behind me, forgive him, and MOVE ON.


But I was still pretty messed up at the six month mark, and still learning at the nine-month mark, and still learning at the one year d-day mark.



And now, approaching the five-year d-day anniversary?


I can say that my marriage is NOT perfect. I can say that every day I come home to a man who IS IN LOVE WITH ME, and I AM IN LOVE WITH HIM.

And every day we look forward to being together. There is only one reason for this.

MARRIAGE BUILDERS.


If I win the lottery, I might just send Dr. Harley a love offering.


Schoolbus


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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MB helped ME to fight the affair.......

MB helped ME to regain my footing when the ground had been removed.....

MB helped US to begin Recovery......

MB continues to give us the tools to NOT return from where we came......

Nuff' said.....

Not

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I think another aspect of those who do not use marriage builders concepts, is that when the search is done to find answers as to why your marriage and most of your life is crumbling in front of you - that search is being done by someone in shock, disbelief, and is now so broken and lost. Its hard to take all the information in at once and process it.

I know I was reading threads, articles and SAA; all the while watching my marriage go up in flames. I listened to the advice from everyone and counseled with SH. The alien wasn't cooperating - I also truly believed in the beginning that if I did everything that everyone was telling me to do that it would magically R the marriage and end the A.

It wasn't until I went to plan B (poor one in the beginning, becoming better with time) and was able to put some space between myself and the A; that I was able to think more rationally. I still had a few "oops, probably shouldn't have done/said/texted/emailed that". But I am only human.

But again, I really believed that plan A and B would end the A and R the marriage. I now understand the concepts a little better. I certainly did not expect the D to drag on as long as it has. So to return to the original statement. I don't think the lost and broken can comprehend everything and cannot imagine the long time line that this can encompass.

I now feel as though I am in a place of personal recovery. I can't predict the future? Maybe my plan A did work, and maybe my plan B is working. I don't know, I certainly don't know what is going on in A-land. Only snippets of information that I know I shouldn't be listening to. Maybe down the road the A will end, the alien will vacate and WH will come begging for my forgiveness? Again, I can't predict the future and can only take one day at a time. Those things may never happen either and if they do, maybe I will be in a different place and not wish to R the marriage.

The point I have been babbling to make is this, It has taken me 9 and 1/2 months to figure that out and get to this point. Now I just want some peace. In the current society of easy come - easy go - disposable - and - instant gratification. Many of the broken and lost do not know how or maybe not interested in investing the time and effort MB concepts take.

JMHO


Me:BW
Dday:12/31/09-Found MB 01/03/10
3DstepChildren24&20
PlanA:01/03/10
PlanB:03/25/10
D final 11/15/10

"I dare you to find some time and some place to be silent for longer than usual; a few moments, a few minutes, a few hours. Listen to your heart, listen to your soul; and most importantly, listen to the silence to see what it sounds like and how it speaks to you."
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Missy, I gotta say that you are sounding soooooo GREAT these days! No matter if your WH pulls his head out of his backside or not, YOU are benefitting from the MB program. You are one plucky lady, and I'm proud of you!


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

BW M 44 yrs to still-foggy but now-faithful WH. What/how I post=my biz. Report any perceived violations to the Mods.
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Originally Posted By: Mark1952
MB saved MY marriage...


I've seen it save others as well.

I know it can work when both H & W are doing it.

Mark


I came to the MB a little late with D day. Tried other sites and was thrown at the beginning.

MB did not recover my M to date...but MB saved me.

I have learned, I have grown, have been hit by 2x4s and not always agreed or accepted.

I am not perfect, I have stumbled and fallen, I have been my own worst enemy. MB is a good program and when you come here there is always hope.


Me 55, XWH 53, M 22 years
D17, D30
alien replaces my husband "I'm not happy" -7/08
Discover OW-8/08 (his direct report and I work there also)
H moves out 10/1/08, confront Ow 10/28/08
Plan B 1/09
D final 12/09

Quote: "First thing you do is pray; when there is nothing else to do, continue to pray."
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Originally Posted By: markos
And what really bugs me is that anybody who thinks they know better can go start their own website if they want. But they resent the fact that this used to be a free-for-all exchange of ideas on marriage where every perspective was equal, they want a community like that, and they feel entitled to the community here. They want to use the community that Dr. Harley built at his expense, rather than doing the hard work of building their own.

They want to get their way at somebody else's expense.

Hmm, as I remember, that's a recipe for a bad marriage. Interesting coincidence.


I heard a quote that reminds me a lot of what I learned here at MB. "I don't have to be right not to like something." I fully believe in the MB program. But I think the Basic Concepts are universal ideas that are also explained in other sources, and if I can quote something that helps a person hear what they are looking to hear in a way that they can hear it, then I think it's great, too. Most of the stuff I want to quote is right here, but it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing. Dr. H makes references to other sources, like in the articles about an alcoholic spouse, suggesting Alanon as an option, and giving the name of a book on female sexuality in the HNHN chapter on SF. There is an amazing amount of information given here free, but it can in no way be all-encompassing. If folks use the Dave Ramsey materials, for example, to find POJA on FS, I fail to see the harm in that.

Also, in the When to Call It Quits newsletters, Dr. H doesn't say that there's anything wrong with the folks who settle for less than a fully recovered loving marriage. He discusses all the options respectfully. In the newsletter to men, he even validates why men would stay in a sexless marriage, because they don't want to lose custody of the kids.

I suspect that you and I markos, disagree on a whole lot less than we agree on. Just that post rubbed me the wrong way. Lots of times we don't like something, doesn't make the other person wrong.


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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Quote:

MB did not recover my M to date...but MB saved me.

I have learned, I have grown, have been hit by 2x4s and not always agreed or accepted.

I am not perfect, I have stumbled and fallen, I have been my own worst enemy. MB is a good program and when you come here there is always hope.


Amen Sista

I totally agree, MB may have not recovered my marriage to date, but MB saved me. Most important the MB community saved me; I can't imagine living in the pile of crap and deceit if I had not done a pln A/B. I am in a better place every day because of this community and the principles its based on.


Me:BW
Dday:12/31/09-Found MB 01/03/10
3DstepChildren24&20
PlanA:01/03/10
PlanB:03/25/10
D final 11/15/10

"I dare you to find some time and some place to be silent for longer than usual; a few moments, a few minutes, a few hours. Listen to your heart, listen to your soul; and most importantly, listen to the silence to see what it sounds like and how it speaks to you."
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I know for me, I have gotten in the habit of honestly throwing out whatever is on my mind or breaking my heart on here. And because I have not yet attained perfection smile that means sometimes I actually voice the questions I have. That doesn't mean I do not believe MB is the best there is. It just means that my humanness sometimes makes me...discouraged on the journey. I know people are different. Some people are very good at - once they decide something - never feeling a moment's weakness or fear or anything else. I'm not there yet. Sometimes, I admit, I have a fear that I will never never be able to "do it well enough" or that even if I do, it won't "fix" things. This is just me being honest. I never worried about it too much because I figured I wasn't the only one who occasionally stumbled. So for me, if my posts sound hurt, it's because I am hurting. If my posts sound frustrated, it's because I am. I just wasn't wired to be robotic about things, if that makes sense.

In my mind, when I am afraid to ask questions about something, it makes me wonder just how much I can trust it. For example, I believe the Bible. Period. So when I am confused or worried or weak, I am not afraid to ask questions because I know the Bible can stand up to my human scrutiny. It's not that I have suddenly decided none of it is true. I just need help, direction, or maybe a reminder. I do the same thing with MB. When DH and I have just had some great AU time, had recent SF, and I cleaned the house and lost five pounds last week, it's easy to be really strong. But when it's been three months since SF, DH has been in a snappy and distant mood, and I decided to comfort myself with half a bag of cookies....yeah, I'll admit to finding it a little harder to hold out hope.

Some people do probably just come here to whine. And some people - I am convinced - come here to fight. But I know for me, my questions are actual questions, and I would hate to think that anyone would just write me off because I didn't figure it all out fast enough or because when the valley gets long, I sometimes forget how to get out.

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NED, yes Dr Harley makes references to other complementary sources, such as Alanon and AA, but he does not endorse other marriage programs. And he does not endorse the vast majority of them because they don't know how to achieve romantic love and don't have any idea how to save marriages. Most don't even believe romantic love is possible.

Here is how he describes other therapists in one of his newsletters:
Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
I give you this advice because I want you and your spouse to be in love with each other, and I'm sure that you want that, too. But most marital therapists disagree with me on this issue. Because their advice is so pervasive, and so destructive to the love of couples that follow it, I use whatever opportunity I have to defend this crucial position.
here

Do you really think he wants such other positions promoted to newcomers who come to Marriage Builders for help? crazy

Why should he provide a forum where newcomers are referred to programs he does not endorse? His forum is provided for the purpose of giving away - for FREE - the Marriage Builders program.

I think its good to discuss various programs/books but not when it comes at the expense of a desperate newcomer. When a newcomer arrives, they are coming here to learn about Marriage Builders; not about every dog and cat marriage program. That is confusing and only serves to muddy the waters. So I differentiate between a thread that discusses different marriage books and a thread that discusses other marriage programs to a desperate newcomer who came to MARRIAGE BUILDERS for help. The former is informative and productive, the latter is destructive.

It boggles my mind that people would be so adamant about promoting anything BUT Marriage Builders on Marriage Builders. There are lots of places on the internet where you can do that. It doesn't have to be done on Dr Harley's dime.

Quote:
Also, in the When to Call It Quits newsletters, Dr. H doesn't say that there's anything wrong with the folks who settle for less than a fully recovered loving marriage. He discusses all the options respectfully. In the newsletter to men, he even validates why men would stay in a sexless marriage, because they don't want to lose custody of the kids.


Surely, you understand it is not the goal of Marriage Builders to have a bad marriage, right? In that newsletter, Dr Harley understands that sometimes there are no good options and that staying in a bad marriage for the children might be the best of bad options. But that doesn't mean Dr Harley is endorsing bad marriages.

My gosh, Marriage Builders saved my marriage. Is it too much to hope that others get the same thing? I passionately want others to get what I have in my marriage so I get a little frustrated when I see folks trying to stand in the way.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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i guess i am wondering WHEN this changed?? i remember back in the day we discussed everything....along with mb's we talked about 5 love languages and many other resources....having those discussions never took away from helping people on here.

i get why the harleys want to promote only mb's....i have no problem with that, i get it. what i dont understand is when it changed and did i miss a posting somewhere that it was no longer allowed to discuss these other sources?


what we do in life......echoes in eternity!
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Originally Posted By: nikko
i guess i am wondering WHEN this changed?? i remember back in the day we discussed everything....along with mb's we talked about 5 love languages and many other resources....having those discussions never took away from helping people on here.


BUT.... it does take away when someone promotes such a book to a newcomer who is here to learn about Marriage Builders. It muddies the waters because they are entirely different programs. [even though Chapman uses the term "Love Tank" - gee, wonder where he got that?? grin]


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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People who come here are pretty desperate and in pain. They need a plan. Other affair/marriage sites have no plan.
If the plan or advice given here does not satisfy the BS (or WS) then they are free to google other programs on their own.
But hearing all sorts of different approaches on a thread can be too much for someone who is going thru the devastation of an A and the possible end of a M...
blessing


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I do think it is very important for the comments to be consistent. Four years ago when I came as a WW, I was worried about telling my DH and about telling him who the OM was. Almost everyone said in no uncertain terms that yes, I had to do both NOW. But there were a couple of posts that said maybe not. guess which ones I grabbed onto. Now, it was MY fault I didn't immediately do what was right, but I think it illustrates how there are some principles that should be non-negotiable. For example, I love when a wayward comes here and won't answer certain questions, and people like Mel and SuzieQ just keep asking and asking and asking......Like, "No, bud,you're not dodging that one!" smile Tough love

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Originally Posted By: lurioosi2
For example, I love when a wayward comes here and won't answer certain questions, and people like Mel and SuzieQ just keep asking and asking and asking......Like, "No, bud,you're not dodging that one!" smile Tough love


grin We are so meeeeeeeeeeeeeeean! dramaqueen

One that used to drive me CRAAAZY was when we finally persuaded some newcomer to expose the affair and some "sage" would pipe up and tell him to not to! The scared BS would usually grab onto the advice not to expose, at his own expense. It was so frustrating!! All it achieved was putting off the inevitable by causing frustration.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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