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i guess i am wondering WHEN this changed?? i remember back in the day we discussed everything....along with mb's we talked about 5 love languages and many other resources....having those discussions never took away from helping people on here.


[Emphasis mine]

I suppose that would be a matter of opinion...so far we've had a number of people post on this thread that they WERE given alternative advice and it was NOT helpful, in fact it was confusing and stalled them in their recovery (it sounds like to me).

I've read many, many other books on marriage ~ 5 Love Languages, Boundaries in Marriage and many more, ad nauseum. I have recommended these books to others as a SUPPLEMENT to the MB program, NOT as a substitute.

And I certainly wouldn't recommend alternatives to someone who is still in the trenches of marital recovery. Since we're here at MB, the MB program really needs to be understood and mastered first ~ anything else is supplementary.


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
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I stick around for the scones, Aqua Net, memories of one of my fave childhood cartoons **wonder twin powers activate**, and some other things that make smile. smile

I don't agree with 100% of everything MB but I think it is a solid program and offers much to improve a marriage, with or without infidelity, as well as personal improvement.


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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scones???? I got NO scones!

I think it's because scones have carbs, and after you eliminate LB's you are supposed to eliminate carbs...hahahahahahaha!

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Quote:
But I think the Basic Concepts are universal ideas that are also explained in other sources, and if I can quote something that helps a person hear what they are looking to hear in a way that they can hear it, then I think it's great, too. Most of the stuff I want to quote is right here, but it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing.
Of course not. And visitors to this site should certainly check out other sites in their search for help.

Dr. H makes references to other sources, like in the articles about an alcoholic spouse, suggesting Alanon as an option, and giving the name of a book on female sexuality in the HNHN chapter on SF.
I suspect that's because the good doctor knows his limitations and knows that alcoholism requires different handling, as does female sexuality. He's in the business of Marriage Building, not an AA counselor.

There is an amazing amount of information given here free, but it can in no way be all-encompassing. If folks use the Dave Ramsey materials, for example, to find POJA on FS, I fail to see the harm in that.
Of course not! If it helps save their M and make it better, that's great! And I suspect those websites are fairly easy to find, yes?

Posters show up here, stunned and looking for answers. To bombard them with "this website tells you how to save a M" vs. "that website also tells you to save a M" vs. "you-could-always-try-this-approach to save a M" is muddying the waters to an alarming degree.

And that doesn't even speak to the two main issues, here:
First of all, it's breathtakingly disrespectful for a poster to come on here and start explaining The Way to save a M, based on some author/psychologist other than the owner of this website. These posters are not in the business of saving marriages and have no experience doing so.

Second, the approach Dr. H takes is specific and successful. It is more than presumptuous for anyone to enter his website and start explaining how his approach is "wrong". Sure, it's not going to save every M. Some M's never should have happened, some have been neglected so long that there's no breathing any life into them. No program is 100% successful. But Dr. H's approach works for so many that it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info.





D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Originally Posted By: lurioosi2
scones???? I got NO scones!

I think it's because scones have carbs, and after you eliminate LB's you are supposed to eliminate carbs...hahahahahahaha!


Scones and teas even. Maybe I hogged them all for my comfort food stash. Carbs........mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. HA!


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
[ But Dr. H's approach works for so many that it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info.


I agree 100%, MaritalBliss. And if someone wants to recommend various programs to newcomers, there is nothing stopping them from starting their own website. They can do that on their dime, rather than Dr Harley's.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
Quote:

Posters show up here, stunned and looking for answers. To bombard them with "this website tells you how to save a M" vs. "that website also tells you to save a M" vs. "you-could-always-try-this-approach to save a M" is muddying the waters to an alarming degree.
[/color]


This is talking from my experience. When i had my DDay about three years ago i went onto the internet. Typed in husband had affair into yahoo search. Then into google search and guess what each and everytime i searched and searched..... This was ALWAYS the top website. Obviously the most hits and even tauted on other websites as one of the "best programs" out there for this type of marital issue. Other sites i am referring to was babycenter.com and yahoo answers as i was posting there since i had just had a daughter. The women there referred me her above all else first. You don't get to be number one in a field by not having results.


Truth can stand on it's own two feet....A lie needs support....FRM
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Originally Posted By: MF
I've read many, many other books on marriage ~ 5 Love Languages, Boundaries in Marriage and many more, ad nauseum. I have recommended these books to others as a SUPPLEMENT to the MB program, NOT as a substitute.


I have read many other books on marriage, countless articles and webpages. I come back to MB, even today, after divorce, to continue learning a program that has helped me become a better me.

Before I found MB, I tried another site, bought materials and tried to use them to draw WxH back in. What a miserable failure that was. It was another year before I found MB. The vast amount of FREE information helped me to begin the path that has kept me sane and made me stronger during this entire process, with no small thanks going to the folks who posted to me here, taking their time to swat me upside the head and get me back on the path to recovery, personal or marital.

I will always be grateful and believe in the program


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I shudder to think about the websites I went to that said it was wrong to ask about details of the A. What if I had listened to those sites - I'd be in the loony bin right now. crazy

Hearing the details was crucial to my healing!

Equally bad thought: imagine the betrayeds who read those sites and stop there. frown


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Originally Posted By: maritalbliss


Equally bad thought: imagine the betrayeds who read those sites and stop there. frown


Another bad thought: they come to Marriage Builders and read the same bad marriage advice... That was prevalent for the first few years I was on this forum. It was confusion central!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: maritalbliss
[ But Dr. H's approach works for so many that it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info.


I agree 100%, MaritalBliss. And if someone wants to recommend various programs to newcomers, there is nothing stopping them from starting their own website. They can do that on their dime, rather than Dr Harley's.


It's also clear that people who disagree with or want to question Marriage Builders are welcome to do so even on this site. They are just not welcome to go confuse people who came here to check out and learn the Marriage Builders program.

In other words, post your objections on their own thread, don't go interrupt someone else and share your objections to the program with them. (And cut the crap about how you agree with the program, you just disagree with "some people's" "interpretations.")

There's is no excuse on this website for anyone to try to dissuade someone else from following the program exactly.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: nikko
i guess i am wondering WHEN this changed?? i remember back in the day we discussed everything....along with mb's we talked about 5 love languages and many other resources....having those discussions never took away from helping people on here.

i get why the harleys want to promote only mb's....i have no problem with that, i get it. what i dont understand is when it changed and did i miss a posting somewhere that it was no longer allowed to discuss these other sources?


I'm told that it changed when Dr. Harley started managing the board more actively and took a hand in selecting a moderation staff that would enforce the rule you now see posted above:

please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders concepts.

I'm guessing there was probably a day when that was not posted.

Anyway, it seems to me nobody ever gets in trouble for comparing and contrasting Marriage Builders to their own ideas and objections, or to other programs, ON THEIR OWN THREAD. I could be wrong.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: CWMI
Almost all of the regular commentators on my threads for the first year and a half I was here are now, um, released from the board. I would like to give a shout to those who actually understand MB to please NOT give up on newbies; you leave them with people who don't employ the program or even understand it, and they end up like me, floundering for a very long time until they speak with the actual source of the material.

My marriage now is better than ever.

Before SH, I got very poor advice. Not all of it poor, but a very large percentage of it went all against my understanding of MB. It's very confusing to those trying to grasp and implement.



When Prisca and I got married I was aware of Marriage Builders. We tried and failed to learn the program from the books. Our marriage got worse and worse, and Marriage Builders had given us high expectations.

I looked in on this forum from time to time through the years and was disappointed because it was just people discussion random marital advice and other books, not the Marriage Builders program. So I never joined until this year.

Some people would rather this be their personal playground than let its owner use it to promulgate his program to people who want to learn it. I am glad this has changed. This has been the best year our marriage has seen in a LONG time.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
Originally Posted By: markos
And what really bugs me is that anybody who thinks they know better can go start their own website if they want. But they resent the fact that this used to be a free-for-all exchange of ideas on marriage where every perspective was equal, they want a community like that, and they feel entitled to the community here. They want to use the community that Dr. Harley built at his expense, rather than doing the hard work of building their own.

They want to get their way at somebody else's expense.

Hmm, as I remember, that's a recipe for a bad marriage. Interesting coincidence.


I heard a quote that reminds me a lot of what I learned here at MB. "I don't have to be right not to like something." I fully believe in the MB program. But I think the Basic Concepts are universal ideas that are also explained in other sources, and if I can quote something that helps a person hear what they are looking to hear in a way that they can hear it, then I think it's great, too. Most of the stuff I want to quote is right here, but it doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing. Dr. H makes references to other sources, like in the articles about an alcoholic spouse, suggesting Alanon as an option, and giving the name of a book on female sexuality in the HNHN chapter on SF. There is an amazing amount of information given here free, but it can in no way be all-encompassing. If folks use the Dave Ramsey materials, for example, to find POJA on FS, I fail to see the harm in that.

Also, in the When to Call It Quits newsletters, Dr. H doesn't say that there's anything wrong with the folks who settle for less than a fully recovered loving marriage. He discusses all the options respectfully. In the newsletter to men, he even validates why men would stay in a sexless marriage, because they don't want to lose custody of the kids.

I suspect that you and I markos, disagree on a whole lot less than we agree on. Just that post rubbed me the wrong way. Lots of times we don't like something, doesn't make the other person wrong.


From your post, I don't understand what you are saying that we disagree on. I must be misunderstanding what you are saying, because I don't understand how what you said relates to my post which you quoted.

Do you resent the fact that the board has changed? If not, then my post wasn't about you.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Schoolbus I totally agree! Well said! I also agree with CW! I've seen a lot of that lately on this board but just from like 1% of the people! Overall its an awesome forum!

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I've not read anything from anyone on this thread who disagrees that MB program is not a good one.
I also agree that the program can get a M back on track.
The philosophies and tools did just that for my M.

I agree with the fact that when distraught newbies come, it can be confusing to discuss other programs and a different philosophy for busting up an A.
That would be very confusing to reference the articles here and then advise different.
The exception would be if a poster is counseling with the Harley team.
What I mean by this is that the Harley's/coaches know the finer details of a situation (details that are not published on a public forum) and tailor the plan accordingly.

NewEveryDay was not referring to throwing different sources at newbies, from what I can tell and I reread her post. I didn't get that from Nikko's post either.
She was talking about discussing other programs as a supplement (as MF said) to the MB program, in a general discussion manner.

Discussion on these different POV's is a good thing, IMO.
There are many aspects of MB that simply cannot be argued to be wrong,
and if allowed to be discussed, this would only validate those tools and the common sense that they are based on.
There is no allowance here for thoughts that are outside of MB, whether they are positive or negative to a M.
Such thoughts are quickly edited posters seem to vanish. I see this and it makes me sad.

Mel, I didn't in anyway get the impression that NED was saying that Dr. Harley endorsed bad M's.
My take was that Dr. Harley realizes that sometimes the goal in a M is to get that spouse involved in a particular situation,
to a good enough place that they are content with living that way within the M. If this means that other resources can
get them there, he is not so rigid to exclude that support.

The post by Marcos that NED referred to as rubbing her the wrong way, it did me too.
According to Marcos's view, my M is bad, as we do not have the perfect MB M.
We do the best that we can to follow the philosophy and we use the tools as best as we can. We ARE doing good, our M is in a good place, from our POV.

According to Marcos's view, I disrespect Dr. Harley's plan since I find interest in other POV on M.
I actually find it fascinating to hear what other's think. It helps me to broaden my
perspective, to not be so tunnel visioned that my thoughts are what another person's should be, and if they differ then they are simply wrong.

Thank you for this thread though MF, it reminds me of the reason that I post less and less on this forum.
I feel posting here is literally like walking on eggshells.

This is likely the longest post I have ever done, I guess I had a lot of thinking to get out there.


M'd 22 years
BW-me
D-Day 08/08 LTA


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Originally Posted By: Vittoria
The post by Marcos that NED referred to as rubbing her the wrong way, it did me too.
According to Marcos's view, my M is bad, as we do not have the perfect MB M.


I am confused. My post was about people who resent the fact that the board has changed. Do you resent that? If not, then my post is not even about you, so I don't understand why you felt it applied to you and it rubbed you the wrong way. If you do resent it, maybe we can all talk together about what is causing that resentment.

Quote:
According to Marcos's view, I disrespect Dr. Harley's plan since I find interest in other POV on M.


That is not what I said at all. It bothers me when people try to talk about things I've said but didn't look at it closely. I don't always communicate perfectly, but I do try to be very precise and say what I mean. You didn't even look close enough to get the spelling of my name right, and you are misunderstanding what I said. If you look at it again and closer and still think this is what I said, then I'd be happy to talk with you about it and try to clear up the misunderstanding.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: markos
You didn't even look close enough to get the spelling of my name right, and you are misunderstanding what I said.


Maybe you were mistaken for Imelda.

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Originally Posted By: Vittoria
Discussion on these different POV's is a good thing, IMO.


I don't know if I agree with that. First off, the board is for discussion of DR HARLEY's POV. All of our POV's led to a screwed up marriage. I didn't come here to hear someone's POV, I came here to hear Dr Harley's POV. We don't know how to save marriages, after all.

And if you do, I would suggest you write a book and set up a forum. Because I sure don't know how to save a marriage. I only know how to screw one up.


Quote:

There are many aspects of MB that simply cannot be argued to be wrong,
and if allowed to be discussed, this would only validate those tools and the common sense that they are based on.
There is no allowance here for thoughts that are outside of MB, whether they are positive or negative to a M.
Such thoughts are quickly edited posters seem to vanish. I see this and it makes me sad.


I disgree there is no allowance for thoughts outside of MB; it happens all the time. What is not being tolerated is such discussions on the threads of newcomers or those who are seeking help with their marriage. That is destructive and disruptive. IT is disrespectful to the board owners. IT should have never been allowed in the first place.

Folks who want to talk about other resources to newcomers are free to set up their own forum to do exactly that. But they shouldn't expect to come to Dr Harley's board and confuse newcomers with other resources that he doesn't endorse. The purpose of this board is Marriage Builders.

I can't imagine I would have an entitlement to go to the Weight Watchers forum and preach Atkins. It is just astonishing to me that anyone would believe they should be permitted to do the same here. crazy


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Quote:
It helps me to broaden my perspective, to not be so tunnel visioned that my thoughts are what another person's should be, and if they differ then they are simply wrong.


Holy cow Vittoria ~ you sure got some things out of these posts that I just don't see.

Nobody said that another person's view is WRONG ~ only that it is disrespectful to Dr. Harley AND confusing to newbies for posters to be giving (often contradictory) advice on affairs/marriage recovery, etc.

You will often see other marriage books recommended here ~ and that is certainly welcome. It's when other plans/books etc. outweigh MB advice that it becomes a problem. Re-read CWMI's post, that is a perfect example.

Quote:
Thank you for this thread though MF, it reminds me of the reason that I post less and less on this forum.
I feel posting here is literally like walking on eggshells.

You're welcome and it's too bad you won't stick around and post about Marriage Builders with us ~ we have lots of great discussions about the concepts and how important they are!


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
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