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No offense, but my one of my criteria for dating before I remarried was someone who never betrayed their spouse, or divorced a spouse who had not engaged in marital misconduct.

My wife's ex husband divorced her instead of working on his marriage when she wanted change in her marriage, and essentially demanded marriage counseling.

He got the divorce he wanted and was re-married shortly after to a woman he met in divorce court.

He's extremely miserable.

Me, I'm happy. We are still relatively newlyweds and are working through the tasks required to blend a family, trying to apply MB to the process.

I made it clear that I would never tolerate infidelity. I wouldn't judge her based on the behavior of any other, but based on my experience, if she ever engages in the same type of abusive behavior of infidelity, that she would be off the team.

She married me anyway smile

She knows the standard and signed up. She's not judged based on my ex-wife or any other experiences.

I'm probably more vigilant, but not oppressively. Our lives are open books one to another, and we both like it that way.

She also knows that unfaithfulness is a deal breaker for me. I know that verbal or physical abuse like her ex-husband engaged in is a deal breaker for her.

It's openness and honesty, one of the keys required to work the MB program.

If you couldn't love me for my past, I understand. I don't think I could trust someone who betrayed their spouse. Even if that spouse was not me. I don't think I could trust someone who walked out on their spouse. Even if that spouse was not me.

I get why, if I were single, wouldn't want me, given my views. That's fine. They are free to believe that way, much as I'm free to have my deal breakers.

Some say I'm intolerant. I simply attribute it to having a personal standard. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure I don't measure up to the person standards of others. I don't take it personal.

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PS, I think we agree. I've exchanged communications with waywards who think they are doing their spouse a favor by not telling them about their affair.

When I explain that as long as they've not confessed, they are still engaging in the same deception as they were when they were sleeping with their lover.

I usually get all sorts of justification. They confessed to God, their priest, their parents or girlfriends, or name anyone but their spouse. Sometimes it just sickens me how folks can justify their own bad behavior, especially with respect to infidelity.

Given my life experience, I'm not sure I could even trust someone who repented. I'd forgive. But could I trust them? I don't think so.

One can forgive and still believe, and espouse with enthusiasm, how wrong and hurtful a certain behavior is.

I've forgiven my ex-wife. I really don't even think of her anymore, other than as someone who I have to periodically deal with on parenting issues, and that's rarely.

Now I may give a passionate account about what happened. But that's more my passion regarding how abusive and hurtful affairs are, and my passionate belief that while MB is the best plan if one should choose to attempt to save their marriage, that even that isn't good enough to motivate me to want to try again, should I face another unfaithful wife.

It doesn't make my answer right for everyone. Nor have I said my answer is right for everyone.

I've clearly said how I would answer two questions.

Q1: What would you do if you were me facing an unfaithful wife?
A1: I would remove her from my team.

Q2: I want to win my wife back, what do you recommend?
A2: I recommend Marriage Builders. Your chances are slim, but your best chance is to follow this program.

That's it. I can answer each of those questions that way and not be in contradiction.

After all, if you look at Dr H, he's said the very same thing. He says he would not try to save his marriage if Joyce is unfaithful. He also says his program is the best.

Now we can argue if he really means the first one or not. But that is his public position.

If it's good enough for Dr H to say it, then it must be fine for me to hold the very same view.

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To your point, EE, here is what Dr Harley says about saving a marriage after an affair:

Dr. Willard Harley from his infidelity video

When I first started doing this, I could not imagine anybody getting over it. Now, there are a lot of people that have told me that they haven't gotten over it. Thirty years has gone by, and they haven't gotten over it. But they haven't gone through the procedure I recommend, either.

The people that have gone through this procedure that I recommend HAVE gotten over it. And to me it's the most amazing thing that you can go through the worst experience of your life -- somebody hurting you in the worst way possible -- and, two years later, you love the guy, you trust the guy, you forgive the guy, you never wanna lose the guy.

To me, that's amazing.

It's what love is all about. It's what male-female relationships are all about. And when you do things the right way, you can restore a relationship even when a professional like me looks at it and thinks it's hopeless.

I got a procedure that works even when I think it's hopeless!

Even when I don't think... "I think you oughtta' leave the guy! What a jerk!"

"No, I don't really wanna leave the guy. Tell me what I can do to save the marriage."

"Well, OK, I'll give you some help."

So, you know, this is what I do. I do this for a living. I help people solve problems where I'm not always convinced that they oughtta' be solved.

But I know how to solve 'em. This is the way... this is the way do it.

If a person says "I don't want to save my marriage", I'd say "I agree! You have no argument with me! Your spouse did something that, from my perspective, is the most disgraceful thing imaginable. If you wanna leave him for that, you have my blessings."

But people have come to me and said "I want you to help me save my marriage."


"OK, I can do that, too. This is how to do it."

But it's a very narrow road, and I don't know of another way that can be accomplished. I don't know of another way. You can never see or talk to the [affair partner]* again, you're gonna go through a period of withdrawal that's, that's, that's a little bit ugly, and then you're gonna have to learn how to achieve these three goals in your marriage:

You're gonna have to learn how to make all of your decisions with each other in mind.

You're gonna have to learn how to avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness.

And you're gonna have to learn how to meet each other's emotional needs.

*Dr. Harley says 'spouse' here in the video, but it's obvious he means the affair partner, who most often is married him or herself


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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And if you read what I'm saying, you'll find it's exactly what Dr H is saying.

If you don't want to, I get it.

If you want to, here's the plan.

He's also said he wouldn't if Joyce betrayed him.

All of those are 100% consistent with what Dr H says.

I showed a bit of the back side of the envelope calculations WHY I wouldn't. They may be different from other folks. But my personal values are just as valid as Dr H's for him, or the spouse who wants to try for them.

I find it odd for those who said they wouldn't try to talk someone out of their view one way or another that so many here appear to try to talk me out of my views, which ironically mirror Dr H's 100%.

In short, I've said I agree with Dr H, and have adopted his plan for all circumstances.

I use MB to have a good marriage, and if infidelity should present itself in my marriage, I'll follow the personally stated plan for Dr H, and remove the unfaithful spouse from my team.

Can't really argue that I'm unwilling to use MB, can you?

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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
And if you read what I'm saying, you'll find it's exactly what Dr H is saying.

I agree! I posted that in agreement to your post.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Last edited by MBsurvivor; 09/20/10 01:07 PM. Reason: TOS disrespectful

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Telly, I see people called upon their DJs toward their spouses all the time on MB.

Being judgmental about wrongdoing isn't wrong, however.


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

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Last edited by MBsurvivor; 09/20/10 01:08 PM. Reason: TOS disrespectful

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Being judgmental about wrongdoing isn't wrong, however.

I second what Telly's saying here. Clearly something like contact with OP is a disaster to be addressed as such. But as you read in Dr. H's Q&As and articles, many situations are not disasters, but growth opportunities. I think a great example is ML's lettuce in the supermarket anecdaote, one we can all relate to, because we've all BTDT. So they took that situation from a bad afternoon and made it into a growth opportunity, a chance to really resolve some long-standing issues, in a way that they are both feeling better about each other.

I would love it if over on MB101 we could consistently help folks have the same outcome, to take those bad afternoon that everyone has, and make it a step on the staircase to where they both want to go together. Something that they will laugh at, looking back on it, because the way that they handled it in the end becomes something they can do again and again. Totally safe together. Telly, like the situation you related about the camping, how it became an opportunity to get to know each other better.

And I think that this does happen, too, that good support is also given. But man, what I had been unable to find a word for, what Telly calls scornful tone, is something that I do think we would do good to replace with teamwork, finding the common groud. I think we all agree with the Basic Concepts here.


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Originally Posted by Telly
I left the boards when I saw that some people could get away with being as judgmental as they wanted without restraint (even when meeting with Dr. H). Hurling DJ's about their spouse left and right with no correction happening from the board, or apparently still from the good Dr. himself.

I sometimes still read because I care about the people to whom I have posted for the last 6 years.

And my marriage is doing well.

I still believe in MB, and think that when you're fighting an affair, there is nothing better out there anywhere.

Edited to add: I have not been afraid to recommend additional resources to people who were struggling simply with getting their EN's met, or who were questioning a dating relationship or even in an abusive one... as long as it did not contradict MB.

But that changed.

So between the rampant disrespectful judgments and the increasingly tight-fisted moderation, I stopped enjoying posting here.

I only come back, as I said, because I do believe in MB principles, and I care about the people here. Though I find I'm reading less and less here, which is probably a good thing.
There is nothing wrong with not posting any more if you do not like the tone of the boards! I don't think this thread was started in response to people who do that. I believe it was started in response to people who deliberately undermine MB on the MB forums.

For example, there are, or have been, posters who routinely recommend individual counselling to look at past issues. Dr Harley explains why he has found this to be counterproductive. It is one thing for a poster to recommend this or other anti-Harley advice once or twice, perhaps not having read Harley properly, but when they have been directed to the links and have been told several times WHY their advice is harmful and they continue to give it, then they should be rebuked. I can see why a poster would be banned eventually when they roundly declare that they don't care about Dr Harley's views; these are THEIR views and they will continue to give them to posters in crisis.

Similarly, there are posters who appear to have been banned because they more or less accuse Dr Harley of fraud or charlatanism. They go beyond saying that they don't think a marriage can survive infidelity, and beyond saying that they have seen many affairs proceed to long marriages; they come here and argue that Dr Harley manipulates statistics or evidence to round up customers. Why should Dr Harley tolerate this on his own board?

The forums here have discussed the merits of other books or websites since it started, and it continues to do so. There have been long discussions about Pittman, Langley, Chapman and many others. People discuss the similarities between the idea of "love languages" and "emotional needs", for example. People see similarities between Pittman's advice to just leave the affairees in what he describes as a "romantic" affair alone, and Dr Harley's Plan B.

Discussing these books (they are rarely programmes or strategies) on discussion threads is hardly the same as telling a new poster to look at a non-MB programme, as if MB were not worth the recommendation.

What you call "tight-fisted moderation" is done to protect people in search of tried and tested MB strategies from the opinions of people who do not apply MB concepts. Have you never seen moderation that you approve of? Have you ever contacted a moderator about a harmful post? Did it have an effect? I have contact them, and sometimes action is taken and sometimes not. I am not always right.

I'm sure many people leave like you because they do not like the forums, but this thread is about those who stay and run campaigns against the MB-derived forum advice and against MB as a programme in itself. They have nothing to complain of if and when they are banned. Enough is enough.


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Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Quote
Being judgmental about wrongdoing isn't wrong, however.

...But as you read in Dr. H's Q&As and articles, many situations are not disasters, but growth opportunities. I think a great example is ML's lettuce in the supermarket anecdaote, one we can all relate to, because we've all BTDT. So they took that situation from a bad afternoon and made it into a growth opportunity, a chance to really resolve some long-standing issues, in a way that they are both feeling better about each other...
As I understand it, ML and her H each thought the other was wrong about how much to spend on this item. ML wrote to Dr Harley on the private forum.

Also as I understand it, he told her that she was WRONG to try and bulldoze her H into buying something her did not agree to spending money on. It did not matter that it was only a �3 lettuce versus a �1 lettuce; if she wanted a happy marriage without LB and disagreements then she had BETTER learn to apply POJA to spending decisions, and buying lettuce in the supermarket was as important a place to start as any.

I don't know what you mean by a "growth opportunity"; as opposed to what?

The kind of lettuce that is bought is indeed not comparable to a WS contacting the OP, but it is still important. POJA makes the difference between an argumentative, miserable marriage and one of mutual support and happiness. It should be applied to all decisions that affect the marriage. If somebody on the forums had told ML in strong terms that she needed to work POJA and stop doing what pleased only her, that might have been deemed a "slap", or offensive or rude but it would have been exactly in line with Dr Harley's own advice.

I see that the complaint of "rudeness" is often made when we are told to use the MB principles and not our own armchair philosophies. For some reason, people don't like being told that.



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I�ve seen BH�s end up divorced more often than not on these forums, even when they follow the plans. Doesn�t mean it�s not possible, but I get the impression that WW�es are much tougher to deal with and get to return to a marriage than BH�s.

The only ones that seem to do so are the ones that face complete exposure, family rejection of the affair, and severe legal consequences to their actions (such as loss of custody).

If those things don�t happen then I generally don�t see a WW coming back from anything that a BH can do. I support a BH�s effort to save things and following Plan A or B, but I�ve been chastised by posters when I encourage strong legal actions by a BH and am told that they are counter to MB.

But a BH not protecting himself is how so many men end up outside of their kid�s lives. They, like me, fall into the mistaken notion that doing nothing to anger the WW will increase chances for reconciliation.

A strong legal response by a BH is a big wakeup call for a WW. She�s getting called on her desire to D, but isn�t getting the fantasy Hollywood D that she imagined.

Is it MB? I don�t know what SH thinks about the matter, but he doesn�t seem averse to legal protections.

I think that legal protections can go hand in hand with Plan A and B and Mortarman is a good example of this.

Losing custody is the biggest wakeup for a WW.

As far as not having kids and saving a marriage:

Why, if someone is young and has no kids, should they be encouraged to settle for the greatest betrayal a person can suffer through when there are so many good people out there?

As I said, it is my opinion that cheaters with no kids should not be forgiven and that the BS deserves better from life and should move on. Saying so doesn�t mean I don�t believe in MB. I do. Very much so.

Too many times I�ve seen men on here holding out hope for reconciliation after WW has moved on to OM 2, and OM 3.

Why? Why sentence yourself to such torture? When kids are in the picture there is a family to save. Without them? It�s nothing more than a breakup with papers. I say that after seeing such marriages without kids fail. From my observations, there is nowhere near the emotional aftermath as those with kids.

Sounds harsh, but that�s the reality as I�ve experienced and observed it.

I respect that others have an opposing viewpoint, but I think it is wrong to shut down views you think are wrong. Debate is good. Shutting down people is not.

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Originally Posted by Telly
the increasingly tight-fisted moderation

Folks, you have no FREAKING idea how difficult it is to moderate these forums !

People complain that the edits are too tough, and otherwise "tight-fisted", and others equally passionately complain that the edits are not doing enough to stop egregious posters.



Telly, you seem to be doing both:
Quote
So between the rampant disrespectful judgments and the increasingly tight-fisted moderation

Are you saying that rampant disrespectful judgments should or should not be met with "tight-fisted" moderation, while complaining about "tight-fisted" moderation ?????

I did not last long as a moderator. A few months.
It was too DAMN difficult, to damn time-consuming, and I'd say about 80% THANKLESS !!!
The stress was tremendous.
The moderators take their jobs seriously.

You have NO IDEA the vitriol members spew at the moderators in private.
Vicious UGLY words. Then, they send out false emails to other members to spread lies about the moderators.
It's HARD, people.
Be grateful it's not your job.
I know I am.

THANK YOU TO ALL MODERATORS WHO HAVE MORE SKILLS THAN I POSSESS.

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Last edited by MBsurvivor; 09/20/10 01:02 PM. Reason: TOS you are a guest here, please act accordingly

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Originally Posted by Telly
I am sure I don't have any idea how hard it is to moderate.

But I think whoever made the decision that moderators should have two separate identifications (one as a regular poster and one as a moderator) made a mistake.

Dr. H (and even his son Steve) may be the experts on marriage, but they are not experts on how to run a board.

If I have a "conflict" with a member of MB, I don't want to find out later that they are ALSO one of the moderators who holds power over me and my posts. It can (and has) led to perceptions that some people are attacked by moderators, while others are left free to do/post/say whatever they want because they haven't raised the ire of a particular moderator (while under their alias).

If Openness and Honesty is something we tout in MB, why are we not experiencing that ON THESE BOARDS?!

What difference does it make?
Post as you like.
Follow the rules.
Hit the "notify" button whenever you think something has crossed the line.
That's what I do.
It's NOT my place to question or to undermine any board policy decision made by the Harley family on their site.
Moderators can and DO edit each others posts.
I know for certain mods are not immune from edits by other mods.

PS Telly:

Can you answer this question?
Quote
Are you saying that rampant disrespectful judgments should or should not be met with "tight-fisted" moderation, while complaining about "tight-fisted" moderation ?????

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If Openness and Honesty is something for which we advocate in MB, why are we not experiencing that ON THESE BOARDS?!

Because, this is an anonymous forum/board.


Openness and honesty would mean we post using our real life names.

NOT a good idea at all.

O&H as written in Harley terms, is intended for MARRIAGE BUILDING.

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If Openness and Honesty is something we tout in MB, why are we not experiencing that ON THESE BOARDS?!

Would you be as open and honest with someone you knew to be a moderator as you would with someone whom you perceive to be a regular member?

Quote
I actually have no problem with Dr. H wanting people to focus primarily on his resources. It is, after all, his site. I just find that the loudest voices here are so offensive in THE WAY that they post--even if it has NOTHING TO DO WITH ME (so it's not about Telly wanting people to be nice to her) that I don't really want to be here.

One of the problems before the moderation of the bnoard was tightened up was the arguments that started when the "nicer" posters would "scold" the more vehement posters about how to post. IMHO, we are all adults, and nobody has the right to tell anyone else HOW to post, although we all are certainly within our rights to diagree or to point out errors in the message.

A lot of people seemed to get caught up in trying to prove how nice they were versus giving good advice to those who needed it.

Yes, some posters tend to be more harsh than others, but you know what? Even though the harsher posters might initially get the newbie's back up, somehow the harsh words seem to get the message through much faster and better. For instance, if someone tells me a bunch of advice in sweet, soothing tones, the thing I'm most likely to remember is how sweet that person is and how good that person made me feel. However, if someone ticks me off when giving me good advice, I find myself indignantly going over and over their words...until I finally GET IT!

Anyway, these arguments would become huge threadjacks, and the orginal poster's situation would be all but forgotten in the ensuing melee over posting styles. I am glad to see the stricter moderation.

And, for what it's worth...people who want a say-so over how to moderate a forum, should put their own money into it.


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

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Originally Posted by SugarCane
Similarly, there are posters who appear to have been banned because they more or less accuse Dr Harley of fraud or charlatanism. They go beyond saying that they don't think a marriage can survive infidelity, and beyond saying that they have seen many affairs proceed to long marriages; they come here and argue that Dr Harley manipulates statistics or evidence to round up customers. Why should Dr Harley tolerate this on his own board?

I, too, have seen this and as someone that has attended the weekend forum and met Dr. Harley and his wife, Joyce along with their son, Steve, his wife AND children (Dr. Harley's grandchildren) and sat with the entire family as their guests for an expensive dinner at the hotel we were all staying at I have to say that calling them charlatans is about the most inaccurate and offensive thing you could say about this wonderful family.

In fact, I've actually seen it suggested that Plan A is part of some evil business model designed specifically to keep betrayed spouse's stuck in a hopeless situation whereupon they will have to buy more, presumably, MB books, tapes and counselling. IF THAT WERE THE CASE, then I, as a businessman and tax attorney myself, would suggest that Dr. Harley and his family's evil business model could really use some serious tweaking by doing the following:

1. Add paid links to his website (look to your left and right and notice not one advertisement...surely a profiteer that owns a high traffic website could obtain some paid links in order to fund this endeavor and bank it.)

2. Giving paid endorsements to other infidelity authors and websites (new authors are always sending out pre-copies of their books and looking for the paid (or unpaid) endorsements of established well-respected authors which they can in turn utilize to promote their books...who cares if the book is any good or not or even if it contradicts the proven MB methods/principles...take the money to the bank)

3. Stop giving away his materials and programs on his website (All authors today need a website to promote their books and marital program but why the heck would you place ALL your material there...give them snippets or teaser information but make them PURCHASE the books, CD's, and seminars to get the nuts and bolts of the program. Need content...just fill the website up with real or heck, fake testimonials of those who have paid you in the past)

4. Stop paying for a website forum where people get to discuss and implement his programs free (not only do they give away but they PAY for the bandwidth to store the enormous amount of free content available to anyone that stops by and even allows anyone to comment on it and give their advice BASED UPON THE MATERIALS, free to anyone that merely stops by. They essentially allow/support a peer counselling group on their website as an ALTERNATIVE to buying anything from them. IMO, this is absolutely crazy for a profiteer to do.)

5. Stop selling his books on the website AT COST. Surviving an Affair is a HARDBACK book that they sell for only $12.74 plus $3.95 shipping. Even Amazon sells it new for $13.59 plus shipping. That being said...at least the Harley's and his moderators should disallow me or anyone telling people on his forums that you can buy many of his books on Amazon or elsewhere cheaper...for example, Amazon has "USED" copies of Surviving an Affair for only $4.00 plus shipping OR those with a Kindle can download a copy for only $9.99 (no shipping). For having the best and one of the only true marital recovery PLANS they could surely charge more for their books, CD's and counselling. Take a look at a few other author websites and see what outrageous fees they charge for their inferior plans and you'll see that the Harley's are surely missing out on some money.

6. Stop giving FREE ADVICE on the radio and for up to an hour before taping the radio show he's paying for (he's not a paid radio personality. Dr. Harley is PAYING for the production of these programs out of his own pocket. He recently set up a 501(c)(3) fund to help offset the COST which maybe someday will allow him to build more free content for this website. Plus...some of these callers are otherwise PAYING CLIENTS (like, SickofLimbo)...I certainly would advise him to not cannabalize his own paying clients by giving them free advice.

7. Stop giving away free books to his radio guests (they are already getting free advice and they give away enough already)

8. Farm the email addresses off the forum and bookstore and use them to push/sell his other books, tapes and seminars as well as the books, tapes and seminars of those he becomes a paid endorser of OR just flat out sell the farmed email list to the highest bidders directly or via listing agencies. (I have NEVER received a solicitation email from MB trying to push me to buy more books, etc... I do still receive 10-12 junk emails PER MONTH from other websites I registered upon way back in 2005)

9. Sell many other books and snooping aids directly off his website (set up a one-stop infidelity resource store. Why limit it to just books...sell Voice Activated Recorders and GPS tracking devices ...a whole spy shop would be nice AND PROFITABLE TOO)

10. Stop insisting that your couple clients working the program and restoring romantic love only need about 6-8 sessions total. No one would think badly of any counsellor for wanting to encourage their clients to visit (and PAY) for years upon years of counselling and followup. In fact...NEVER tell a client that their past isn't relevant to moving forward when delving into their past...ad nauseum, can be so profitable.


Just some ideas for profiteering that I came up with.


Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I'd be remiss if I failed to mention that we live in a capitalistic country where it is not considered ethically wrong to profit from ones labor. These books didn't write themselves. Dr. Harley is a degreed professional that has the right to charge whatever he wants for whatever he creates. It is up to buyer to determine it's worth...and, in my opinion...his program saved my marriage which makes his stuff PRICELESS...to me.



FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
Joined: Oct 2009
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I have to say I have never understood the "it's all a marketing ploy" accusation. I mean, soooooo much stuff - even the questionaires - are on here for free. most web sites that share ANY of their resources only give you about a paragraph to get you interested and then say: "Want to read more? just send 19.95 to...."

I see MB as the Scot-Forseman of marriage. Several years ago our school system adopted Scot-Forseman as our reading series. it is incredible. It has leveled readers, the reading book, hands on books, web resources, recordings, home-study. It is research based, written almost exclusively by educators, and our system paid quite a pretty penny for it. So naturally, our teachers were trained and were expected to teach it "to fidelity." That means USE IT ALL.

Occasionally, though, as those with children can attest, there will be a child who really wants to read...but still stuggles. In that case, the teacher will dig out her extra resources on fluency or decoding or whatever the SPECIFIC interference to reading is and supplement. Now, this teach may not substitute her own stuff for Scot-Forseman. Ever. But if Judy has trouble decoding long vowels and Mrs. Jones has an excellent resource for that, she will refer to it. In that case.....she is doing what every teacher is expected to do - tailoring the instruction to the needs of the child. Because Mrs. Jones can't go to the principal and say, "I tried teaching Judy using the system materials,but she didn't get it. She must just be dumb. Let's send her home."

I know that is one reason that one-on-one counseling with the Harley's is suggested a lot. Because sometimes people really do need more than a book and some forum advice. We have never been able to afford it, and I admit that I have occasionally felt frustrated because I was trying sooo hard, and nothing was happening, and it is hard to accept that either I am not good enough of he doesn't love me. So in that way I am sometimes a little like Judy. And after my recent Lehman transgression....I may well be relegated to that special class in the basement. That's okay. I still believe MB is the best around, and it is still the primary line of operation for me, even if I have stuck my toe out of line one too many times.

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