I am a little confused, so you were the OW, you tore up this happy family to marry the WH (married 5 years now), then you also took the daughter away from her mother?

Is that what I am hearing?

Shouldn't we have a survey to see who's allowed to post on the Marriage BUILDERS site?

Because this "F" OW is making me want to

"I am a little confused, so you were the OW, you tore up this happy family to marry the WH (married 5 years now), then you also took the daughter away from her mother?"

SR,
No. I am married. My H is is not FMM. This is his first M. I never "took" DD away from her mother. The court did. Initially we had 50/50. Then the police raided her home 1 night and arrested BS. The police called us to advise us that DD was in hospital. BS had company all of which were smoking around DD (9 months at the time) DD was wheezing as she had asthma. When the police took the baby to hospital her O2 saturation was only 83%.

At this point, MM went back to court and got a Court Order that forbade BS from smoking around the baby. Yet she continued to do so. CPS was involved due to the 83% O2 sat. They reported the continued smoking to the judge. That is why she lost custody and MM got sole physical.

Later that was reduced to supervised visits as BS kept smoking around DD. We knew this b/c CPS was the drop off/pick up for the child's visits. As DD reeked of smoke when returning, as did her diaper bag, it was CPS & GAL's opinion that BS should only have supervised visits at CPS.

Later BS quit showing up for visits. She then moved to Fl. Her and her BD were robbing old people's homes. One night they robbed an elderly gentleman. The BF beat the man and he later died a week later due to pneumonia. Since the pneumonia was caused while in hospital to recover from the beating, the state charged both with felony murder. The state offered her a deal, but she refused to testify against BF. She ended up getting convicted of 2nd degree murder & burglary. Due to her prior record (before she even got M) she got sentenced to 15 years. She most likely will only serve 8.

FYI to all,
I apologize if my post came across as boastful. That was not my intent. It was taken from part of a post I made to SOL. I was encouraging him to settle for no less than the time he wanted w/ his boys as he is BS. His attorney advised him that it would be difficult to get what he wanted in D. I was letting him know he had other options.

I was using FMM as a worst case scenario stating that if he got 50/50, anyone could if they fought for it hard enough.

Yes I was wrong in the fact that I used devious means at the time of their D and used every tactic known to man to stall and drag out the process. Yes, I assisted MM in his flooding of her attorneys w/ paperwork for the sole purpose of forcing her hand to agree to settle for 50/50. I am NOT proud of that. However, I do hope to use that knowledge for others that are getting d!cked around in the D process so they can get what they truly deserve.

I do NOT take responsibility for the decisions BS made later that resulted in her in prison. It is not my fault she continued to smoke around the baby despite a Court Order. It is not my fault she quit coming to the visits w/ her DD.

Gotta take DDs to school will be back later to fix the errors.

I do hope that you get what you deserve, too.

I can see why you are now "stableatlast". You are full of horsesh!t.

SC,
I am stable at last. I am in a healthy M to a wonderful H. I have used MB's concepts. We get our 15 hours plus, we use POJA, and we both try and meet each other's needs.

I have 2 boys in the service. My 16-year-old DD is graduating this year at age 16. When she graduates she will have 12 college credits to her name via Florida University as they have a dual enrollment program at her HS. She has a 3.7 GPA. She also models and acts. DD (9) is an active member of girl scouts, the Awana club, and is in dance and takes guitar lessons. She also makes all As and Bs in school.

We are all active in our church. I have repented. I have been forgiven. I also have forgiven myself.

Good day to all:)

Proud for some of the things she should have not done

No shame for some of the things she has done

WH had you help him fight so hard to get custody of his DD. Why has WH left DD with you?

I think WH didn't want DD. I think WH wan't to avoid CS and alimony and didn't care about the pain he was causing as long as his wallet was protected and his ability to bang his OW was not impaired.

You know SAL I have worked with a very many OPs and WSs who ended up together, for a while at least. I have come to realize that such folks think very differently than I do, so it is not really possible to have a rational debate together.

You see to ME, and to a lot of folks marriages and particularly FAMILIES are somewhat sacrosanct. They are Holy constructs where children are created in love and raised in security and protection. It is a self-evident fact that bio parents , and them together are ALWAYS the right guardians of the children, unless there is genuine abuse or a lack of capability.

I spend a lot of effort helping mums and dads love each other more so that the framework of life for their children can be more loving and secure.

Its easy to think of this as a universal truth, but with folks like you it is not.

To you the family unit is a transient thing that can be manipulated, broken and rebuilt as long as it makes YOU "happy". The best person to raise a child is whosoever makes your life more "happy" be that you or the BW or, well, anybody else.

And you have no qualms about lying in the legal process to ensure the children are used as pawn in the way that best serves your "happiness".

See to me, and a few other folks, your behaviour and life is one of unconscionable filth. To you it is the consequence of " a love affair". Just like in Cosmo, right ? Everybody does it. Blended families are "in" !

So thats why you don't get a welcome here, SAL. To many of us you are a societal cancer: an unrepentant adulteress, a kidnapper and a thief. Your advice as to how to take away children from their betrayed natural mother is not welcome here. We support natural families not destroy them for our caprice.

So is that to imply that without you, DD wouldn't have amounted to anything?

Considering the source, who knows what the real story is. I will not defend BW for breaking the law, but did you ever think that perhaps you and WH destroyed this woman mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically to the point that she just didn't care anymore. Just maybe she was smoking her brains out from the stress of your A with her WH, the destruction of her family and you bleeding her dry while she fought for her child. You have no idea the cruelty you inflicted upon this woman. If you need to pat yourself on the back and tell yourself you rescued her DD to look at yourself in the mirror, good luck with that.

This is some warped and deranged stuff. You have some nerve.

Back to the original topic of this thread, representing yourself or going "pro se" into divorce. This was my advice to SoL and anyone else who is going through the process.

Unfortunately, none of this will compensate for an immoral upbringing. They have been raised in an environment with immoral role modeling that will leave them ill prepared for real life.

They have been taught that anything is acceptable as long as it makes one "happy." Its ok to screw married men and break up his family as long as it makes me "happy."

Kids lose any sense of right and wrong when they are raised in an immoral environment. Kids will be taught that anything is ok as long as it makes me "happy." They lose any sense of right or wrong. "well, it makes me happy to use drugs" when I am 12 It makes me "happy" to get on my knees and give 4 6th graders oral sex. That is what they teach their kids.

In order to truly repent, you must first understand the full gravity of what you did.

That doesn't come through...only that yeah it was kinda a bad experience, I shouldn't have done it, and oh by the way, sorry.

You don't get it. I can't make you get it. It doesn't mean I have given up hope of you getting it at some point - life will teach us the lessons we refuse to learn the easy way.

OK, I can understand that it was dangerous for the baby to be around people who are smoking.

However, I'm wondering as to WHY the police "raided her home", because you mention nothing about any illegal substances. Who called the police?

@Lady Clueless....that was MY thought exactly!!! Why would the police raid a home where all the people are doing is smoking. Last I checked, smoking is not against the law.

@Stableatlast....with regard to the original topic of this post (I posted this on SOL's thread, as well)....I am a licensed attorney with over 24 years in practice and, when I divorced, I did not represent myself. Uh uh, wouldn't dream of it! I hired an attorney to represent me. When you are in litigation, you need to be as objective as possible - that's what your attorney is there for. Also, there are Rules of Procedures and Rules of Evidence that must be followed, motions that need to be filed and/or responded to - that's the stuff the lawyers know that pro se litigants do not. Because of that, judges HATE pro se litigants. The only time an person should represent themself is if the case is open and shut with no complicating factors OR if the party simply cannot afford an attorney.

BTW, before you or anyone else says the obvious, I am not in private practice, so I am not drumming up business or trying to help out my colleages...I'm corporate in-house, so my client is here regardless.

so just out of curiosity, what's the ratio of divorces have you done that's went to trial versus settling?

there's not one person i know that's divorced whose divorce actually went to trial. seems like all that money was spent for the same service one could've gotten cheaper through a mediator or on their own...of course I understand it may be better to retain a lawyer if one owns a business or there's a lot of assets worth a lot of money, but even then, most settle before a trial.

I went to trial.

with a lawyer.


What was valuable enough to fight tooth and nail for?

My children.

Maybe this was missed. Going to trial was never stated as a given.

Mr. Anderson,

I have never practiced Family Law. I am currently corporate in-house but, prior to that, was a litigation attorney (general litigation of all types other than Family Law). The majority of cases of any type (personal injury, property damage, Antitrust, class actions, employment litigation, you name it) do not go to trial. When I was litigating, I had a docket of over 150 cases at any given time. I litigated for 4 years, so I would say that, over that 4 years, I handled approximately 250 - 300 cases. I actually tried only 15. The others were dismissed on motion (e.g., Motion to Dismiss, Motion for Summary Judgment, Motion for Want of Prosecution, etc.) or settled. The majority of cases filed - regardless of type - rarely go to trial. In fact, it is rarer for a case TO go to trial than not. The reason is because the legal machinations that take place prior to trial - pleadings, discovery (depositions, interrogatories, requests for production of documents, etc.), numerous types of motions, objective settlement discussions, arbitration, mediation, etc. - resolve the cases before they reach trial. ALL of those machinations involve court rules and requirements, a knowledge of caselaw and legal reasoning. Attorneys know what to ask, when to ask it, how to ask it, etc. Savvy, skill, whatever you want to call it, we do it for a living much like your doctor or plumber or anyone else with a learned skill or expertise.

I will use myself as an example. Could I have represented myself? Yes. Did I, no. Within the first 10 minutes with the attorney I retained, I learned that, because my now XH was living in another country, I would have to follow certain Service of Process rules that I didn't even know existed and I went to law school, took Rules of Procedure, passed the bar and had served many a pleading in my time. I would never have dreamt that I would have to petition the Department of State to petition the Crown for permission to serve a simple divorce. See, little nuances. Also, attorneys who have expertise in a particular area of practice also know the caselaw precedent that they can use to their advance in discovery, pleadings, etc. See my post about the judge who ordered discovery of a woman's private Facebook, Twitter, My Space posts in a personal injury case. While it seems logical that one would be able to discover those, there are various legal arguments for why they should not be discoverable. In the end, a judge decides. If you do not know that such a precedent exists or offer caselaw to support your position, how can you put forward a valid, strong argument that would allow a judge to find in your favor? Learning this all comes with study and years of practice. There's a reason Abraham Lincoln (a very wise man in most people's books and a lawyer, himself) is often quoted - "A lawyer who represents himeself has a fool for a client."

LC,
I am not sure that anyone actually called the police. I know her BF sold crack cocaine to an undercover 4 times. I believe that is why the house was raided, or at least that is what was reported in the paper.

Mr. Anderson,
I know going pro se is not easy. I also know it is best to have an attorney. However, often times it seems men get the shaft in the D process. That was the whole purpose of my post to begin with. I want fathers to know that they can go pro se. They also can use it as a legal tactic to stall the D. In addition, it is a way to drain the resources and the patience of the opposing attorney. My post was to SOL as an afterthought I made it a thread of its own. I am not advocating ditching all attorneys. Nor should someone that can not control their emotions ever represent themselves, but I do not see why SOL, or any man, should be paying an advocate that will advise them that they are most likely not going to get what they want out of the D. Your attorney should fight for what you want, even if it isn't the fastest, easiest solution for the attorney.

I also have helped several custodial parents go after their AP for CS and contempt pro se, to the point where the Ga Bar sent me a letter stating that they were investigating me practicing law w/out a license. Most attorneys, at least in Ga., will quote a figure of $1, 500 or more as a retainer to even begin working on a CS contempt case. Most of the ppl I assisted did not have that kind of $$$ and were tired of waiting for CSE to take any action on their cases.

Many of the larger jurisdictions have pro se forms already preprinted. They are a fill in the blank type deal. Some even have a person available to explain certain procedures, although of course they are not allowed to give you legal advice.

I do know that judges hate pro se clients. I will say this, Judge Gillis of Coffee County, Georgia, is very patient with pro se clients as was Judge Blitch. Both also gives fathers a fair shake. Plus they had wonderful secretaries that would often answer any procedural questions you may have, even though they were not supposed to.

"There's a reason Abraham Lincoln (a very wise man in most people's books and a lawyer, himself) is often quoted - "A lawyer who represents himeself has a fool for a client."

I had already posted that quote, but it is an option for some who may not have the $$$ for proper representation or want to pursue a tactic that their attorney does not agree with.

The Road,

"WH had you help him fight so hard to get custody of his DD. Why has WH left DD with you?"

I am not sure. However, I can assure you money was not his motivation. He happily paid CS when he left, even prior to an Order being issued. When I kept DD after our breakup he paid that $$$ to me, again w/out an Order. Currently he pays zero, but he also is not working nor does he see her anymore (his choice). I do send him updates and pics though.

I realized my M was not going to work w/ FMM long before I left him. However, I stayed b/c I had fallen in love w/ DD. How can you not fall in love with a child you give breathing treatments to 4 times a day, bathe, rock, etc.? I finally sat him down and told him it would not work. At this point, I asked him to leave. He went to live w/ his mom. He detests the environment in his mom's home (long story), so he asked me to keep DD temporarily. He also promised he would continue to allow me to see her when he took her back.

However, he just never got her back. He hasn't worked due to a knee injury in quite some time. He is applying for disability, but has yet to get it. He still lives in his mom's home. He helps take care of her. He says that he knows DD is well cared for and he would rather have her w/ me than living where he is.

I have been in her life since she was only a few months old and have been caring for her full-time since the age of 2 1/2. She is now 9. He has signed guardianship over to me. However, I have not adopted her. Her biomom's rights were terminated to DD and her other kids 2 years after she left for Fl. I send her pics and updates to the prison.

ML,
"They have been taught that anything is acceptable as long as it makes one "happy." Its ok to screw married men and break up his family as long as it makes me "happy.""

I have not taught them that. Yes I made poor choices. However, I have explained to my boys that what I did was not right. I am a very different person now then I was then. I used to follow the OP's handbook to a tee. I now respect M and all that it stands for. I recently kicked my Uncle off my property because he had the nerve to bring a GF to my house, when he is M. I also called his W and informed her immediately.

People can and do change.

br,
I am not sure what would have became of DD w/out me, but I am not trying to make myself out to be her hero or anything. In many ways DD saved me. I am glad that she did not end up in state care as has her siblings.

All I know is that I do love her and have raised her to the best of my ability. I am VERY proud of who she is. I was very selfish when I was w/ MM. The innocent, wonderous love of a child can soften up anyone.

Bob Pure, I just want to thank you for calling kidnapping what it is. It doesn't matter if a court approves it. I appreciate your stand for what is right.

Hey "Stable"atlast...

I am a mom of a son who used to have significant asthma and I am also a health professional and a mom who recently took her ex terribly wayward husband BACK to court after he was erroneously given more custody than the jackas@ deserved to make sure my son was raised decently 100 percent of the time. Anything less would have been a disservice to my precious boy.

I also find extreme arrogance in your posting. And fwiw, I have 100 percent custody including supervised visitation now too.

I find what you did also tantamount to kidnapping.

Btw, while 83% O2 sat is a good bit depressed, it is not life threatening and I have seen much worse in asthmatic children, who live in homes WITHOUT SMOKERS. My sons' 02 in the past had become depressed too, but it was because of an attack or if he had gotten an upper respiratory illness from a secondary source.

Wtf are you really advising here? I'm wondering. If people DO change, then how have you made amends for the situation regarding your poor DD and the marriage you destroyed?

Hell I am friends now with my ex H's ex ow (now his w and is divorcing him too). But I don't trust her and never will. While I can be nice to her and get along, and know she was truly sorry for what she has done, it is RARE that any ex OW or OM truly does the work to fully repair the damage they inflict. I think it is a lofty goal for one to try to do that, and I have yet to see one who has achieved that goal.

Meanwhile keep living your life and the sitch with your dd saddens me so much. You're not a FOW until you REPAIR that damage 100 percent and your mindset and words now tells me you aren't.

I'm one of those former BW's out there who went to bat for their child, and was subjected to a broken justice system when I initially filed for divorce against a cruel WH and OW who wanted to destroy my life AND have my child around to see them do it. My ex tried for 50/50 and got less than that, but a decent amount (30/70). It HURT my son for years, until I finally got him this summer and went for the full monty and his jugular. I waited until I had more evidence than you could imagine, and it didn't matter at that time how much money he had, because he was legally, toast. And I put the dial on "10" and cooked him.

Know that BW like me out there no matter how we heal, our kids don't and that their scars are THERE. YOU made them. Our kids are innocent, and the truly RESPONSIBLE parent, when a family and marriage is under fire, must do everything in their power to fight for that child(ren), including fighting for their future to protect them from the harmful actions that selfish waywards place upon everybody around them, including their own kids.