*** This is only for BHs that are being served Divorce papers. If you are in plan A ignore this post and good luck in your marriage. This is only for those that are about to be served Divorce papers.***

I posted this to SOL. I also wanted to post to any other BHs that are fathers that may have been served or are about to be served divorce papers.

One thing I want to advise you on. You do not have to have an attorney to represent your interests in a divorce. With a little research you can represent yourself pro se, and in fact will have more leeway than with just a typical attorney.

If you go pro se your WW's attorney will have to deal w/ you directly. Every motion you file, her atty will have to respond. You can demand a strict 50/50 custody of the kids. You can refuse to negotiate this. PERIOD. Every time you speak with her atty, he will be charging her. No one will represent your interests as well as you can. Her attorney will eventually get frustrated and quit or she will not be able to keep up w/ the cost of responding to the various paperwork.

Yes she may have to be a really bad mother for you to get sole custody, but using that same reasoning, you would have to be a really bad father to be denied 50/50.

Most attorneys discourage this, because it is too difficult to pursue. They just want to file the typical paperwork, that is already formatted on their pc, and be done with it. That is the easy way for them. Attorneys are not your friend. They are ought to make $$$. It is in their interest to do as little as possible on your case. The least effort for the most profit.

I am a FOW. My MM left his W when baby was very young. He represented himself pro se in the divorce. I did all his paperwork for him. I had no legal training, with the exception that I had represented myself for several years on an ongoing CS issue. Most documents you need are online for free. You can copy and paste to suit your needs. When served with the Divorce Petittion, we responded with the Respondent's Answer to Petitioner's Petition For Divorce. It took me all of 20 minutes to do.

When her attorney responded to our response, we re-responded. I had him call atty for anything and everything. This was costing her, not him. In addition, even though he had moved out of mariital home, I made sure he stood firm on the 50/50 issue. Eventually her retainer ran out. Her atty encouraged her to give in on 50/50 issue. She refused.

She then hired a second atty. We continued, with same actions. She eventually went through 3 attorneys. They all gave her the same answer. Each petition or answer he filed was free, it only cost her. In the end, when the Divorce case went to court, there was an agreement signed by both of them that gave MM 50/50.

So if an active MM, who left is marital home when DD was only 2 + months old can end up w/ 50/50, you can too! Don't settle for less.

The odd thing is now I am D from MM, married to a wonderful man, and still am raising the DD I helped him fight so hard to get.

They may say that the person that represents himself has a fool for a lawyer, but I have found it to be very rewarding. There was no ambiguity whatsoever in the 50/50 custody deal, as I created it myself and her atty incorporated it into the Divorce Agreement as MM refused to agree to anything less than what was stipulated in my paperwork. It had times, holidays, school breaks, etc. If you create it yourself, you can make it very specific versus the visitation schedules that are usually created that leave a lot of interpretation and are hard to enforce. In total, his divorce cost him about $16 which I spent on a new ink cartridge for my printer - compare that to the average retainer.

We eventually had a few conflicts over her having child unavailable, this led to us filing and winning a contempt of court charge. She was fined. In addition, the judge eventually signed a self-executing type document that allowed the Sheriff's department to lock her up if she failed to comply w/ the terms of the Court's Order.

Only you can fight the best for you and your children. jmho

P.S. There are a lot of father's rights forums that will walk you through the process of pro se work. They also have attorneys that answer questions for free:)

SPARC forum is one of them. (not sure if it is ok to post another forum here - no harm intended)

P.S.S. Never leave the marital home willingly.

Thanks for the heads up, stableatlast, but we have a better plan for scumbag adulterers around here. See, what we do in fault states [and even some no fault states!] is file on grounds of ADULTERY and get the OP subpoenaed and hauled into court to testify under oath about the facts of the affair.

We have had many betrayed husbands and wives alike get much, much MORE than 50/50 and almost always possession of the marital home - sometimes these fathers get child support payments from the mothers.

In fact, in one case, a WW[Eph525's XW] was ordered by the court to get the hell out of her house within 24 hours. It was awesome! Eph525 has primary custody of his children and his WW pays HIM CS! Isnt' that awesome?

So, my message to BH's is to not settle for 50/50! Go for primary and if possible, sue on grounds of adultery and have the cheaters hauled into court to testify under oath AFTER they are forced to turn over all their texts, emails, cell phone records in DISCOVERY!


Why settle for 50/50 with a cheater when it is not in the children's best interest to be stuck with such a crummy parent for so much time? 50/50 sure is not in that child's best interest. I sure wouldn't want to have to vacate my own home half of the time just to accommodate some cheater.

In some states, a BS can even sue the scummy OP for alienation of affection.


Anyway, my advice would be to NOT settle for 50/50! Go for it all! You will be surprised at what can achieve!

I think you posting (nevermind ADVISING the betrayed) here is appalling and says just how "former" of an OW you are.

Melody,
That is awesome!!! I agree. Primary custody is the BEST option for BSs. However, I took my post from SOL's thread, as he was advised he would not be able to get custody, etc.

I think fathers should pursue their legal rights at all costs. Sadly it has been my experience that many fathers take their attorney's advice that every other w/e and 1 night a week is all they are going to get.

I just wanted people to know that they can represent themselves in the legal proceedings. It does not take a law degree. There are many resources available to help them navigate through the legal process pro se. And it is a much cheaper option. I have helped many relatives represent themselves in Contempt motions on CS issues. Often times the CSE agency that was representing them (and I use the term representing very loosely in this instance) had done little or nothing to help them recover. They had no idea they could go after AP themselves.

NO ONE will fight for your rights or delay your divorce as much as you yourself can. I stand by that statement. I was only offering a different alternative/right that people may not know that they had. Obviously it would be best if the marriage was recovered and divorce was not filed etc. However, that is not always the case.

wild,
Yes I am a FOW. I have been happily remarried to a wonderful man for almost 5 years now. What exactly in my post did you find objectionable?

Nor have I ever hidden my identity. Vibrissa suggested I change my name and I think it was Pep or ML that suggested I remove the TOW reference and change that to FOW so as not to trigger people. I have been a member of MB for years and I believe all of my posts, even those from years back, will demonstrate that I post honestly and respectfully. I have no ill intent.

How did you earn your "f?" simply by a new marriage license with a different man?

Seeing as how you were an OW to a MM, his license and vows to his wife meant very little to you. What do yours mean now?

Now that you are no longer in a R with THAT MM, the fact that you were has no relevance any more and you think you have a right to advise anyone who has been betrayed?

I see it as another desperate attempt from an AP to sweep what they have done under the rug without ever making amends and continuing their lives with no regard to those that have been harmed.

Yes, I checked your posts from previous years. Fog babble and entitlement and much self-apprecation. Just as your recent posts reflect.

Do I understand this correctly?

You, the immoral person who was an interloper in that marriage, helped the scumbag WS screw his betrayed wife out of every penny that she had to fight for her children? You did that, she lost custody of her children 50% of the time so that they had to live you with and their father in your affair cesspit, and you come here and boast about how well you did? You are proud of your victory and you happily come here and advise BSs to stand up for their rights, as your scumbag OM did?

Do you have any compassion, humility or shame about the woman you so wronged?

I think I have just told you loudly and clearly what I find objectionable, but I can be more explicit if you did not fully understand.

After reading the post from you above, I think they were wrong. You should wear your shameful label prominently for all to see, because there is no F about you.

Not an F that I could write on this board, anyway.

sal, that suggestion was made on the premise that you were, in fact, a FORMER wayward so there was no reason to tout such a disgusting, depraved website as TOW. It was not a matter of triggering BS', but of offending decent people. Any decent person will be offended by a website that caters to scumbags and losers who celebrate adultery.

Reading the above post, it seems like you are PROUD of the legal mischief you inflicted on the BS and her children which would indicate a WAYWARD MIND, and certainly not "former
"anything."

I'm sorry now that I suggested you change your name ["TEWJTM" for the ends will justify the means] and remove the reference to TOW because it seems all that still fits.

And you're still dragging that poor innocent child into the adultery cesspool why???

If you really cared about that darling girl, the last thing you would do was to keep exposing her to the immoral woman who ripped up her parents' marriage. If you had truly changed and repented, and totally repudiated everything you did during that sick and awful time, not only would you not come onto a marriage-building website to flaunt your legal prowess at taking a child away from her cruelly betrayed mother, but you would have nothing further to do with her all your life, because that's what's best for her.

Your words and actions show that you are still motivated by the same selfishness that led you to to give yourself permission to tear up a family.

You can change, if you choose to. You don't have to always be the cheap woman who sold out on all dignity and honor. But YOU will have to take the steps:

1. Take full responsibility for what you did. Accept the shame that fully belongs to you, without trying to shift any onto the disgraceful MM or his tragic BW.
2. Repent, before God and man. Confess your sin to Him, and to anyone else in your life who was affected by it.
3. Go NC with XMM and that poor BW's DD.
4. Learn about A's. Reading here is one very good way to do that. As you see the same story over and over and over, ad nauseum, you will realize that you weren't different. You weren't special. You were just one more dumb OW giving out for free.
5. It's not enough to just tear down the person you were - you have to build a new, healthy, honorable person to take her place. (Hint: God is really good at doing this.) As you learn how you came to gave yourself permission to prostitute yourself and disembowel a family, you will also see what safeguards you need to put into place to have a safe, healthy, and happy marriage now.
6. Don't stop learning. The mindset that led to you being an OW wasn't developed overnight, and it won't leave overnight. Yes, you still have it. It leaks through every word you write.
7. Once you have done all of the above, don't let the past continue to define who you have become. You can never make up for what you did, or atone in any way, but you can be forgiven and new.

My .03 ......

What offended me about the original post?

The OTHER WOMAN is now raising the child of the marriage that she participated in destroying.

That child should, by everything under that which is moral, right, correct, and decent


go back to live with her MOMMY

FULL TIME.

That child should not have to bear one more minute of time living with the woman who destroyed her family of origin.

Not. One. More. Minute.


I get PAID to help people learn to REASON, COGITATE, and use RATIONAL THINKING skills to make LOGICAL decisions.

Whoever made THIS decision is badly in need of my services.

I am sitting here shaking my head and gasping for air.

@MoxieLadies -

Thank you. Reading above I at first started LOL, then sobered mighty quickly.

I know now that beyond a doubt, I will be safe here.

I hereby dub thee MoxieLadies, the women with capes of power:

Lady MelodyLane
Lady wildhorses74
Lady SugarCane
Lady Neak
Lady schoolbus

Thank you again!

I can't thank you yet, Superman, because I don't know what a MoxieLady is. Is that a compliment?

Sugarcane, here it is:

[Moxie Lady] A modern-day superhero for the new millennium� our aspiration, by choice, is to use our feminine wiles for good, not evil.

thanks clarkkent!

That child needs to go back to her REAL MOTHER! What was done to her is no better than kidnapping!

neak,
1. Take full responsibility for what you did. Accept the shame that fully belongs to you, without trying to shift any onto the disgraceful MM or his tragic BW.

Uh, how have I shifted anything onto MM or his BW. What would you like me to do to take responsibility?

2. Repent, before God and man. Confess your sin to Him, and to anyone else in your life who was affected by it.

I have already done this.

3. Go NC with XMM and that poor BW's DD.

I have ZERO contact w/ XMM. I also have custody of "that poor BW's DD" so I can't exactly go NC with her.

4. Learn about A's. Reading here is one very good way to do that. As you see the same story over and over and over, ad nauseum, you will realize that you weren't different. You weren't special. You were just one more dumb OW giving out for free.

I never said I was different or special, but I am far from dumb. I made choices that I wish I hadn't. I learned from them. I moved on. I now know better, so now I do better.

5. It's not enough to just tear down the person you were - you have to build a new, healthy, honorable person to take her place. (Hint: God is really good at doing this.) As you learn how you came to gave yourself permission to prostitute yourself and disembowel a family, you will also see what safeguards you need to put into place to have a safe, healthy, and happy marriage now.

My M is safeguarded. I have an open R with my H. He is fully aware of my past. We share ZERO secrets. I also am a SAHM now. However, when I was still in the workplace, I took precautions to prevent myself from getting in any situation that my H would not approve of.

6. Don't stop learning. The mindset that led to you being an OW wasn't developed overnight, and it won't leave overnight. Yes, you still have it. It leaks through every word you write.

I am a work in progress as I am sure we all are. I try and learn something new everyday.

7. Once you have done all of the above, don't let the past continue to define who you have become. You can never make up for what you did, or atone in any way, but you can be forgiven and new.

I am forgiven by my God and my children, they are all that matter to me.

schoolbus,
DD's bio mom & dad have both walked out on her. I have custody. She has not seen or spoken to bio dad in over 4 years, even longer for her bio mom.

"go back to live with her MOMMY"

Last I checked they don't allow DDs to go and live w/ mommy in prison. But I guess that is somehow my fault also?

@SugurCane -

Moxie

What is Moxie?

mox � ie (mok - see)

1. Positive attitude and confidence.
2. The courage to go for it.
3. Energy in everything you do.

Slogans

* MoXie girlz "be true � be you!"
* HAVE U GOT MOXIE?
* what a doll!

Message

Every girl has the strength to do something amazing.
Anything is possible as long as you stay true to yourself
& never give up your dreams!

Thanks, clark!

Where does this come from? Is this some American invention that nobody told me about?

How about starting by showing some remorse for the legal persecution you inflicted on the BW on behalf of her husband. It takes my breath away that you would openly and brazenly CROW and BRAG about how you - an OW - screwed over a BW on a forum full of decent, thinking people.

Do you not realize that decent people will naturally be filled with revulsion at the cruel abuse you heaped on this family? Reading your tale is like reading a RAPIST gloat about how he tricked his victim. I don't think you really GRASP what you have done.

What god is that?

Your continued posting here after bragging about bleeding OMW dry in order to take her daughter away is offensive. You should show basic decency and go away.

could be.... after all the head games you played with the woman from the sounds of it who knows what role you really played in that part of it!! Obviously you have no clue to the ramifications of what you had done can do to a BW with a newborn at home..... NO CLUE!

I am a little confused, so you were the OW, you tore up this happy family to marry the WH (married 5 years now), then you also took the daughter away from her mother?

Is that what I am hearing?

Shouldn't we have a survey to see who's allowed to post on the Marriage BUILDERS site?

Because this "F" OW is making me want to

"I am a little confused, so you were the OW, you tore up this happy family to marry the WH (married 5 years now), then you also took the daughter away from her mother?"

SR,
No. I am married. My H is is not FMM. This is his first M. I never "took" DD away from her mother. The court did. Initially we had 50/50. Then the police raided her home 1 night and arrested BS. The police called us to advise us that DD was in hospital. BS had company all of which were smoking around DD (9 months at the time) DD was wheezing as she had asthma. When the police took the baby to hospital her O2 saturation was only 83%.

At this point, MM went back to court and got a Court Order that forbade BS from smoking around the baby. Yet she continued to do so. CPS was involved due to the 83% O2 sat. They reported the continued smoking to the judge. That is why she lost custody and MM got sole physical.

Later that was reduced to supervised visits as BS kept smoking around DD. We knew this b/c CPS was the drop off/pick up for the child's visits. As DD reeked of smoke when returning, as did her diaper bag, it was CPS & GAL's opinion that BS should only have supervised visits at CPS.

Later BS quit showing up for visits. She then moved to Fl. Her and her BD were robbing old people's homes. One night they robbed an elderly gentleman. The BF beat the man and he later died a week later due to pneumonia. Since the pneumonia was caused while in hospital to recover from the beating, the state charged both with felony murder. The state offered her a deal, but she refused to testify against BF. She ended up getting convicted of 2nd degree murder & burglary. Due to her prior record (before she even got M) she got sentenced to 15 years. She most likely will only serve 8.

FYI to all,
I apologize if my post came across as boastful. That was not my intent. It was taken from part of a post I made to SOL. I was encouraging him to settle for no less than the time he wanted w/ his boys as he is BS. His attorney advised him that it would be difficult to get what he wanted in D. I was letting him know he had other options.

I was using FMM as a worst case scenario stating that if he got 50/50, anyone could if they fought for it hard enough.

Yes I was wrong in the fact that I used devious means at the time of their D and used every tactic known to man to stall and drag out the process. Yes, I assisted MM in his flooding of her attorneys w/ paperwork for the sole purpose of forcing her hand to agree to settle for 50/50. I am NOT proud of that. However, I do hope to use that knowledge for others that are getting d!cked around in the D process so they can get what they truly deserve.

I do NOT take responsibility for the decisions BS made later that resulted in her in prison. It is not my fault she continued to smoke around the baby despite a Court Order. It is not my fault she quit coming to the visits w/ her DD.

Gotta take DDs to school will be back later to fix the errors.

I do hope that you get what you deserve, too.

I can see why you are now "stableatlast". You are full of horsesh!t.

SC,
I am stable at last. I am in a healthy M to a wonderful H. I have used MB's concepts. We get our 15 hours plus, we use POJA, and we both try and meet each other's needs.

I have 2 boys in the service. My 16-year-old DD is graduating this year at age 16. When she graduates she will have 12 college credits to her name via Florida University as they have a dual enrollment program at her HS. She has a 3.7 GPA. She also models and acts. DD (9) is an active member of girl scouts, the Awana club, and is in dance and takes guitar lessons. She also makes all As and Bs in school.

We are all active in our church. I have repented. I have been forgiven. I also have forgiven myself.

Good day to all:)

Proud for some of the things she should have not done

No shame for some of the things she has done

WH had you help him fight so hard to get custody of his DD. Why has WH left DD with you?

I think WH didn't want DD. I think WH wan't to avoid CS and alimony and didn't care about the pain he was causing as long as his wallet was protected and his ability to bang his OW was not impaired.

You know SAL I have worked with a very many OPs and WSs who ended up together, for a while at least. I have come to realize that such folks think very differently than I do, so it is not really possible to have a rational debate together.

You see to ME, and to a lot of folks marriages and particularly FAMILIES are somewhat sacrosanct. They are Holy constructs where children are created in love and raised in security and protection. It is a self-evident fact that bio parents , and them together are ALWAYS the right guardians of the children, unless there is genuine abuse or a lack of capability.

I spend a lot of effort helping mums and dads love each other more so that the framework of life for their children can be more loving and secure.

Its easy to think of this as a universal truth, but with folks like you it is not.

To you the family unit is a transient thing that can be manipulated, broken and rebuilt as long as it makes YOU "happy". The best person to raise a child is whosoever makes your life more "happy" be that you or the BW or, well, anybody else.

And you have no qualms about lying in the legal process to ensure the children are used as pawn in the way that best serves your "happiness".

See to me, and a few other folks, your behaviour and life is one of unconscionable filth. To you it is the consequence of " a love affair". Just like in Cosmo, right ? Everybody does it. Blended families are "in" !

So thats why you don't get a welcome here, SAL. To many of us you are a societal cancer: an unrepentant adulteress, a kidnapper and a thief. Your advice as to how to take away children from their betrayed natural mother is not welcome here. We support natural families not destroy them for our caprice.

So is that to imply that without you, DD wouldn't have amounted to anything?

Considering the source, who knows what the real story is. I will not defend BW for breaking the law, but did you ever think that perhaps you and WH destroyed this woman mentally, emotionally, spiritually and physically to the point that she just didn't care anymore. Just maybe she was smoking her brains out from the stress of your A with her WH, the destruction of her family and you bleeding her dry while she fought for her child. You have no idea the cruelty you inflicted upon this woman. If you need to pat yourself on the back and tell yourself you rescued her DD to look at yourself in the mirror, good luck with that.

This is some warped and deranged stuff. You have some nerve.

Back to the original topic of this thread, representing yourself or going "pro se" into divorce. This was my advice to SoL and anyone else who is going through the process.

Unfortunately, none of this will compensate for an immoral upbringing. They have been raised in an environment with immoral role modeling that will leave them ill prepared for real life.

They have been taught that anything is acceptable as long as it makes one "happy." Its ok to screw married men and break up his family as long as it makes me "happy."

Kids lose any sense of right and wrong when they are raised in an immoral environment. Kids will be taught that anything is ok as long as it makes me "happy." They lose any sense of right or wrong. "well, it makes me happy to use drugs" when I am 12 It makes me "happy" to get on my knees and give 4 6th graders oral sex. That is what they teach their kids.

In order to truly repent, you must first understand the full gravity of what you did.

That doesn't come through...only that yeah it was kinda a bad experience, I shouldn't have done it, and oh by the way, sorry.

You don't get it. I can't make you get it. It doesn't mean I have given up hope of you getting it at some point - life will teach us the lessons we refuse to learn the easy way.

OK, I can understand that it was dangerous for the baby to be around people who are smoking.

However, I'm wondering as to WHY the police "raided her home", because you mention nothing about any illegal substances. Who called the police?

@Lady Clueless....that was MY thought exactly!!! Why would the police raid a home where all the people are doing is smoking. Last I checked, smoking is not against the law.

@Stableatlast....with regard to the original topic of this post (I posted this on SOL's thread, as well)....I am a licensed attorney with over 24 years in practice and, when I divorced, I did not represent myself. Uh uh, wouldn't dream of it! I hired an attorney to represent me. When you are in litigation, you need to be as objective as possible - that's what your attorney is there for. Also, there are Rules of Procedures and Rules of Evidence that must be followed, motions that need to be filed and/or responded to - that's the stuff the lawyers know that pro se litigants do not. Because of that, judges HATE pro se litigants. The only time an person should represent themself is if the case is open and shut with no complicating factors OR if the party simply cannot afford an attorney.

BTW, before you or anyone else says the obvious, I am not in private practice, so I am not drumming up business or trying to help out my colleages...I'm corporate in-house, so my client is here regardless.

so just out of curiosity, what's the ratio of divorces have you done that's went to trial versus settling?

there's not one person i know that's divorced whose divorce actually went to trial. seems like all that money was spent for the same service one could've gotten cheaper through a mediator or on their own...of course I understand it may be better to retain a lawyer if one owns a business or there's a lot of assets worth a lot of money, but even then, most settle before a trial.

I went to trial.

with a lawyer.


What was valuable enough to fight tooth and nail for?

My children.

Maybe this was missed. Going to trial was never stated as a given.

Mr. Anderson,

I have never practiced Family Law. I am currently corporate in-house but, prior to that, was a litigation attorney (general litigation of all types other than Family Law). The majority of cases of any type (personal injury, property damage, Antitrust, class actions, employment litigation, you name it) do not go to trial. When I was litigating, I had a docket of over 150 cases at any given time. I litigated for 4 years, so I would say that, over that 4 years, I handled approximately 250 - 300 cases. I actually tried only 15. The others were dismissed on motion (e.g., Motion to Dismiss, Motion for Summary Judgment, Motion for Want of Prosecution, etc.) or settled. The majority of cases filed - regardless of type - rarely go to trial. In fact, it is rarer for a case TO go to trial than not. The reason is because the legal machinations that take place prior to trial - pleadings, discovery (depositions, interrogatories, requests for production of documents, etc.), numerous types of motions, objective settlement discussions, arbitration, mediation, etc. - resolve the cases before they reach trial. ALL of those machinations involve court rules and requirements, a knowledge of caselaw and legal reasoning. Attorneys know what to ask, when to ask it, how to ask it, etc. Savvy, skill, whatever you want to call it, we do it for a living much like your doctor or plumber or anyone else with a learned skill or expertise.

I will use myself as an example. Could I have represented myself? Yes. Did I, no. Within the first 10 minutes with the attorney I retained, I learned that, because my now XH was living in another country, I would have to follow certain Service of Process rules that I didn't even know existed and I went to law school, took Rules of Procedure, passed the bar and had served many a pleading in my time. I would never have dreamt that I would have to petition the Department of State to petition the Crown for permission to serve a simple divorce. See, little nuances. Also, attorneys who have expertise in a particular area of practice also know the caselaw precedent that they can use to their advance in discovery, pleadings, etc. See my post about the judge who ordered discovery of a woman's private Facebook, Twitter, My Space posts in a personal injury case. While it seems logical that one would be able to discover those, there are various legal arguments for why they should not be discoverable. In the end, a judge decides. If you do not know that such a precedent exists or offer caselaw to support your position, how can you put forward a valid, strong argument that would allow a judge to find in your favor? Learning this all comes with study and years of practice. There's a reason Abraham Lincoln (a very wise man in most people's books and a lawyer, himself) is often quoted - "A lawyer who represents himeself has a fool for a client."

LC,
I am not sure that anyone actually called the police. I know her BF sold crack cocaine to an undercover 4 times. I believe that is why the house was raided, or at least that is what was reported in the paper.

Mr. Anderson,
I know going pro se is not easy. I also know it is best to have an attorney. However, often times it seems men get the shaft in the D process. That was the whole purpose of my post to begin with. I want fathers to know that they can go pro se. They also can use it as a legal tactic to stall the D. In addition, it is a way to drain the resources and the patience of the opposing attorney. My post was to SOL as an afterthought I made it a thread of its own. I am not advocating ditching all attorneys. Nor should someone that can not control their emotions ever represent themselves, but I do not see why SOL, or any man, should be paying an advocate that will advise them that they are most likely not going to get what they want out of the D. Your attorney should fight for what you want, even if it isn't the fastest, easiest solution for the attorney.

I also have helped several custodial parents go after their AP for CS and contempt pro se, to the point where the Ga Bar sent me a letter stating that they were investigating me practicing law w/out a license. Most attorneys, at least in Ga., will quote a figure of $1, 500 or more as a retainer to even begin working on a CS contempt case. Most of the ppl I assisted did not have that kind of $$$ and were tired of waiting for CSE to take any action on their cases.

Many of the larger jurisdictions have pro se forms already preprinted. They are a fill in the blank type deal. Some even have a person available to explain certain procedures, although of course they are not allowed to give you legal advice.

I do know that judges hate pro se clients. I will say this, Judge Gillis of Coffee County, Georgia, is very patient with pro se clients as was Judge Blitch. Both also gives fathers a fair shake. Plus they had wonderful secretaries that would often answer any procedural questions you may have, even though they were not supposed to.

"There's a reason Abraham Lincoln (a very wise man in most people's books and a lawyer, himself) is often quoted - "A lawyer who represents himeself has a fool for a client."

I had already posted that quote, but it is an option for some who may not have the $$$ for proper representation or want to pursue a tactic that their attorney does not agree with.

The Road,

"WH had you help him fight so hard to get custody of his DD. Why has WH left DD with you?"

I am not sure. However, I can assure you money was not his motivation. He happily paid CS when he left, even prior to an Order being issued. When I kept DD after our breakup he paid that $$$ to me, again w/out an Order. Currently he pays zero, but he also is not working nor does he see her anymore (his choice). I do send him updates and pics though.

I realized my M was not going to work w/ FMM long before I left him. However, I stayed b/c I had fallen in love w/ DD. How can you not fall in love with a child you give breathing treatments to 4 times a day, bathe, rock, etc.? I finally sat him down and told him it would not work. At this point, I asked him to leave. He went to live w/ his mom. He detests the environment in his mom's home (long story), so he asked me to keep DD temporarily. He also promised he would continue to allow me to see her when he took her back.

However, he just never got her back. He hasn't worked due to a knee injury in quite some time. He is applying for disability, but has yet to get it. He still lives in his mom's home. He helps take care of her. He says that he knows DD is well cared for and he would rather have her w/ me than living where he is.

I have been in her life since she was only a few months old and have been caring for her full-time since the age of 2 1/2. She is now 9. He has signed guardianship over to me. However, I have not adopted her. Her biomom's rights were terminated to DD and her other kids 2 years after she left for Fl. I send her pics and updates to the prison.

ML,
"They have been taught that anything is acceptable as long as it makes one "happy." Its ok to screw married men and break up his family as long as it makes me "happy.""

I have not taught them that. Yes I made poor choices. However, I have explained to my boys that what I did was not right. I am a very different person now then I was then. I used to follow the OP's handbook to a tee. I now respect M and all that it stands for. I recently kicked my Uncle off my property because he had the nerve to bring a GF to my house, when he is M. I also called his W and informed her immediately.

People can and do change.

br,
I am not sure what would have became of DD w/out me, but I am not trying to make myself out to be her hero or anything. In many ways DD saved me. I am glad that she did not end up in state care as has her siblings.

All I know is that I do love her and have raised her to the best of my ability. I am VERY proud of who she is. I was very selfish when I was w/ MM. The innocent, wonderous love of a child can soften up anyone.

Bob Pure, I just want to thank you for calling kidnapping what it is. It doesn't matter if a court approves it. I appreciate your stand for what is right.

Hey "Stable"atlast...

I am a mom of a son who used to have significant asthma and I am also a health professional and a mom who recently took her ex terribly wayward husband BACK to court after he was erroneously given more custody than the jackas@ deserved to make sure my son was raised decently 100 percent of the time. Anything less would have been a disservice to my precious boy.

I also find extreme arrogance in your posting. And fwiw, I have 100 percent custody including supervised visitation now too.

I find what you did also tantamount to kidnapping.

Btw, while 83% O2 sat is a good bit depressed, it is not life threatening and I have seen much worse in asthmatic children, who live in homes WITHOUT SMOKERS. My sons' 02 in the past had become depressed too, but it was because of an attack or if he had gotten an upper respiratory illness from a secondary source.

Wtf are you really advising here? I'm wondering. If people DO change, then how have you made amends for the situation regarding your poor DD and the marriage you destroyed?

Hell I am friends now with my ex H's ex ow (now his w and is divorcing him too). But I don't trust her and never will. While I can be nice to her and get along, and know she was truly sorry for what she has done, it is RARE that any ex OW or OM truly does the work to fully repair the damage they inflict. I think it is a lofty goal for one to try to do that, and I have yet to see one who has achieved that goal.

Meanwhile keep living your life and the sitch with your dd saddens me so much. You're not a FOW until you REPAIR that damage 100 percent and your mindset and words now tells me you aren't.

I'm one of those former BW's out there who went to bat for their child, and was subjected to a broken justice system when I initially filed for divorce against a cruel WH and OW who wanted to destroy my life AND have my child around to see them do it. My ex tried for 50/50 and got less than that, but a decent amount (30/70). It HURT my son for years, until I finally got him this summer and went for the full monty and his jugular. I waited until I had more evidence than you could imagine, and it didn't matter at that time how much money he had, because he was legally, toast. And I put the dial on "10" and cooked him.

Know that BW like me out there no matter how we heal, our kids don't and that their scars are THERE. YOU made them. Our kids are innocent, and the truly RESPONSIBLE parent, when a family and marriage is under fire, must do everything in their power to fight for that child(ren), including fighting for their future to protect them from the harmful actions that selfish waywards place upon everybody around them, including their own kids.

I'd like to add to what peachy has said. I am staggered that a judge awarded you custody instead of arranging for an adoption. There are thousands of good couples who are put through many interrogations and still never get a child, while you and POSWH/OM were given the gift of this innocent baby to bring up.

She is fed and clothed and, apparently, loved by you, but she does not know what you did to destroy her family. She will be so hurt when she realises the depth of the depravity that she has been forced to live with.

Here's the deal. My ds is 12 now, and while for the longest time he had no idea what romantic love was, aside from what you'd see in a disney movie, but knew his dad did bad things but never could put his finger on it.

Now he suddenly "got it" and it was without any help from me. He saw a show on tv and realized that was what his dad did to his mom and a light popped on.

He has feelings for his stepmom (the ex ow) and she's sad now that she can't see (she is divorcing my ex H now for ironically cheating on her) my son now as I have total custody (unless I allow it), but he always knew something was "off" with the stepmom.

Kids WILL ask and they WILL find out the truth. My ex fed the story of "well your mommy and I didn't get along and we'd fuss and fight" was what he heard for years. That part was only true AFTER I found out about his ema. Was not the truth. Now he knows.

You can feed your kid half truths forever, but realize they WILL be damaged and might now feel as they do now about you when the truth is revealed.

My son wants to have nothing to do with his bio dad (the ex) and even the ex's parents who also have been serial cheaters and enablers all his life. When the truth comes out you have nowhere to hide. And I mean that.

And fwiw, if I wanna get advice on the wayward side of life, I once went to that muck site so I could see firsthand the extent of "low" a person could sink to in order to land their married cheating piece of a$$.

On the other hand, the folks over here, will be armed with plenty of ammo to use against the waywards. I kept my MB "truth stun gun" always locked and loaded, even way after my divorce. And trust me too, if the wayward remains in that state, the alien will always rear their ugly head in many different forms.

I kept my stun gun o' truth always close and wielded it at will since 2002. He he. Lock n load baby.

All this comin' from a recovered happily remarried (to a NON wayward and family lovin' smokin' hot guy)hot mama from gawga who will not blink once if I need to disarm my crazy ex husband.

I can do it almost without thinking, blinking, on autopilot. We get GOOOOOD like that.

peachy,

"I am a mom of a son who used to have significant asthma and I am also a health professional and a mom who recently took her ex terribly wayward husband BACK to court after he was erroneously given more custody than the jackas@ deserved to make sure my son was raised decently 100 percent of the time. Anything less would have been a disservice to my precious boy."

Good for you!

"I also find extreme arrogance in your posting. And fwiw, I have 100 percent custody including supervised visitation now too."

It is not my intention to come off as arrogant in my posting. The purpose of this thread, as evidenced by its title (or at least so I thought) was to advise BSs that are fathers that they do not have to settle for the typical visitation schedule that most fathers are normally given in Court due to having attorneys that are basically lazy and do not want to pursue their own clients' goals, but are more interested in maximizing their profit by doing as little work as possible. I was using my XMM's case as an example that pro se can be a very effective tool if used correctly. PERIOD.

Others, whom are not even BS fathers (which is what the thread title clearly states this thread was intended for) have chosen to comment on the fact that I am raising DD or COtheirM. Fine. Thus I have responded to their posts accordingly & respectfully.

"I find what you did also tantamount to kidnapping."

I am sorry that you feel that way.

"Btw, while 83% O2 sat is a good bit depressed, it is not life threatening and I have seen much worse in asthmatic children, who live in homes WITHOUT SMOKERS. My sons' 02 in the past had become depressed too, but it was because of an attack or if he had gotten an upper respiratory illness from a secondary source."

I agree that 83% is not necessarily life threatening, but it is not optimal. DD also had bronchitis. We had taken her to the MD when we had her and she was placed on amoxicillin & singulair. When the cops raided home they found DD in a playpen. She had vomited upon herself. When social services arrived they took her to the hospital as she was wheezing. Once at the hospital they determined her O2 was 83% and she had a temp of 101+.

"Wtf are you really advising here? I'm wondering. If people DO change, then how have you made amends for the situation regarding your poor DD and the marriage you destroyed?"

As I have stated I was advising BSs that are fathers (no one else) that they have the option to represent themselves. It is a legal tactic that is cheap and can be very effective if used correctly.

"Meanwhile keep living your life and the sitch with your dd saddens me so much. You're not a FOW until you REPAIR that damage 100 percent and your mindset and words now tells me you aren't."

I am a FOW. I am not an OW currently. My M is not a result of adultery. My M is precious to me. I have used MB's techniques to strengthen our bond. Just curious, but what exactly do you suggest I could do to 100% repair the damage I caused?

"I can do it almost without thinking, blinking, on autopilot. We get GOOOOOD like that."

Good. I am glad that things worked out in your favor.

Sugar,
"I'd like to add to what peachy has said. I am staggered that a judge awarded you custody instead of arranging for an adoption. There are thousands of good couples who are put through many interrogations and still never get a child, while you and POSWH/OM were given the gift of this innocent baby to bring up."

A judge did not award me anything. XH initially had 50/50. He then received full custody. Upon our D he asked that I continue to keep DD. He signed guardianship over to me so I could enroll her in school, get her medical care, etc. She is now 9. I have been taking care of her at least 50% of the time since she was only a couple of months old, full-time since she was 2 1/2. Her siblings have been placed in the state of Georgia's care.

"She is fed and clothed and, apparently, loved by you, but she does not know what you did to destroy her family. She will be so hurt when she realises the depth of the depravity that she has been forced to live with."

When she is old enough, she will know the truth. She knows she has another father, mother, and siblings. I have not told her that her biomom is in prison, nor will I. She also knows she is loved by God, me, my H, and my other children.

Stable,

I wonder why the BS started up smoking...

I wonder if she started smoking after you took her husband away from her...

Ever thought about that?

You miss, is probably the BIG OL REASON why her life is soo EFFED UP!!

You took her husband away
You tore her family apart

What if some OW did that to you?

Have you even called this poor woman and apologized?? Not like it would matter, because I dont think I would even talk to you.

SR,

"I wonder why the BS started up smoking..."

Hate to disappoint you, but she smoked long before she even became pregnant.

You miss, is probably the BIG OL REASON why her life is soo EFFED UP!!

Yes I helped destroy her M. However, her and her BF are the ones that broke into other people's homes to rob them. Her BF beat 1 of those men and he died. For that, I am not responsible.

"What if some OW did that to you?"

I can not say what I would do. However, I do know I would not start smoking. Yuck. I hope that I would lean on my faith, family, and friends to help pull me through.

"Have you even called this poor woman and apologized?? Not like it would matter, because I dont think I would even talk to you."

Actually I have. I knew her remotely through our work. Back when it was 50/50, it got to the point where she would prefer to communicate w/ me about issues regarding DD than him.

I currently send her pics and updates about DD to the prison. I also have put funds on her account for comissary.

You broke up her marriage family and home. Your actions steered her ship into the path of that boy friend and robbing homes

My mother didn't love me and my H was mean to me and their actions steered my ship into the path of an affair and let�s all set aside a day next week to feel sorry for me and then the next day we can feel sorry for SAL's BW who is in jail for a minimum of eight years for felony murder (no returning the innocent child to her) and after that let�s feel sorry for Scotland�s mistreated husband because she isn�t talking to him because he might say her actions steered his ship into the path of OW and then I want another day to feel sorry for me because I had a screwed up childhood and my H ....

Or NOT.

No one "makes" you have an affair or rob a home or smoke or deal drugs.

Either people are accountable for their choices or they aren't.


THEY are absolutely, undeniably, irrefutably correct.

Stable, I haven't the faintest idea why you started this thread and am not about to get involved in the spat over your intentions.

But I will tell you this: there are lawyers who lie awake at night worrying about their clients and how best to represent them. There are lawyers who give away enormous amounts of time, which is our livelihood, and never consider billing for it because they care deeply about the outcome and they know the client can't pay for it. There are lawyers who grieve right alongside their hurting clients and spend all of their emotional resources on their client's behalf such that they have nothing left for their families.

The answer is NOT don't get a lawyer and do it yourself because there is no way a lay person could ever in a million years understand the ins and outs of procedure and evidence and the politics of the courthouse. Pro se clients are a joke. Some attorneys have compassion and try to help them find a lawyer, and some attorneys say �I have a fool for opposing counsel and it is my ethical responsibility to represent my client zealously.�

The truth is this: the lawyer who decides he has a fool as opposing counsel and decides to zealously represent his client is discharging his ethical obligation. The lawyer who cuts slack to the pro se litigant and tries to help them through the process is in violation of his ethical obligation.

The answer is to find a lawyer who cares.

Sorry, I get tired of the lawyer bashing.

Let's get back to marriage building please.