When are you filing? So you can finally move on? Find a man that will respect you and your feelings?

Atena,
In reading your posts one hand you wanting the A to implode and on the other you say you will not take him back.

Of course you can't take him back as he is in the alien state.

I would not tell the daughter. I agree she will turn on you. I know my DD we could fight like cats and dogs and if someone picked on me -- she would come to my defense hands down.

Blessings.

Atena,
In reading your posts one hand you wanting the A to implode and on the other you say you will not take him back.

Of course you can't take him back as he is in the alien state.

I would not tell the daughter. I agree she will turn on you. I know my DD we could fight like cats and dogs and if someone picked on me -- she would come to my defense hands down.

Blessings.

I was listening to one of the MB radio programs, I think it was the one broadcast on the 29 or 30th of Sept.
Dr. Harley repeated many times that plan B is to maintain the love you have for your spouse in case he returns and he said also that the only instance in which a BS should take a WS back is if the WS begs for forgiviness and is 100% sorry for what he did. Dr. H added that anything short of that should discourage the BS to take WS back. Joyce added that plan B is also to protect BS from the pain of the A. Dr. H agreed but he seemed to emphasize more the 'keeping the love' issue and not wanting the WS back unless 100% repeantant.
I see however that many people try to drag a reluctact WS back into the M and also SAA is an example of this. Is Dr. H takinga different approach in light of many false recoveries?
Plus, in my case where I do not want to R the M, I think the emphasis is definately on personal recovery. I do, in fact, want to lose all the love I have left for WH as fast as possible so I can move on.

blessing

atena, you don't see this where people are in Plan B. They cannot be trying to drag a reluctant WS back into the M when they have no contact with them. Can you tell me where you have seen this?

Where is SAA is there an example of this? Once Jon write his Plan B letter to Sue, he has no contact with her until the affair falls apart. Where do you see him trying to drag his reluctant WS back into the marriage while in Plan B?

If you are not intending to recover the marriage, when do you intend to file for divorce?

I did not express myself correctly. What I meant to say was that many times WS in plan b wants to R the M but still accuses the BS of having forced him into the A because of BS not being caring or affectionate, or working too much etc,,, or they plain say they want to R the M because of the kids. Even Sue when she initially came back to the M did so because he lover left her and she admitted that if he had contacted her again she would have fallen back into the A. She did not say I am sorry for what I did and she acted as if Job had an A and was to blame...not her...
In terms of D, I am not filing because I did not want a separation. I do not have the $$$ to afford a lawyer and register my D in Italy. I married in the states and then registered my M in Italy as well so I have to D in both places.
It is costly. Let WH ask for D and pay for it.
blessing

Atena, I agree with SC, I don't see anywhere that a BS in Plan B is trying to bring the WS back to the marriage. I haven't seen anyone give such advice here either.

A lot of times, the BS needs that push to get into Plan B, it is a HUGE step. The BS is emotionally distraught and feels like this is the END. As a poster, I have told the BS that this is the best chance that they have to save their marriage. It is not intended as a wake-up call to the WS, although that does sometimes happen. The MAIN goal in Plan B is to save the love that the BS has left in case there is marital recovery, but a funny thing happens when a BS is in Plan B. After a certain amount of time, and I think it is different for every BS, the love they had for their WS disappears. DrH suggests 2 years, and for some people, I think it may take longer.

Atena, you have not been in a true Plan B. There has been contact, even though it was indirect and visual. You get thrown into a tail spin of emotions every time. There is no way to get over your WH when you are constantly thinking about him. You are losing all of the love left but in the worst possible way. It isn't slowly disappearing but instead, you are dying the death of a million cuts. You are doing this to yourself. This is NOT the way DrH intended it. This is not the way it was written in SAA and it is NOT the way any of us want it for you.

You need to shore up your Plan B, the best way possible. Get yourself out of contact, indirect or visual and stop making excuses why you can't. You need to figure out why you CAN. It's not easy, but when has anything that has been the right thing to do been the easy thing to do? Do this for YOU Atena.

I see this often and an example is Phoenix and many others. THey took their WS back when the WS himself said he was not sure if he could R but he would give it a try. FR is exactly that...being in plan B and bellieving a non repentant WS.
As far as my plan B goes, I am keeping up my NC and my visual contact is very limited. I am filling my days with a full time job and lots of activities (swimming lessons, meditations, lectures). I am not spending any portion of my free time on WS or OW.
Ideally, yes, if I lived in another town it would be easy but relocation is not the norm even if MB recommends it many MBer do not do it.
I am planning to relocate in one or 2 years.
blessing

I think I see what you mean. You seem to be saying that, if you read SAA, the WS returns to the marriage reluctantly and without any of the heartfelt apologies that Dr Harley seems to be calling for now.

Dr Harley seemed to think that it was okay for Sue to return initially with no remorse, no apology, with a great sense of grievance and entitlement, and to still be blaming Jon for the affair. He did not tell Jon not to take her back without signs that she really understood what she had done to him and the kids. He recommended that Jon vigorously meet her ENs, and her feelings would change later, which they did - a little.

If this is what you mean, then I see your point about the book. I can appreciate that Dr Harley chose a very difficult story to illustrate the point that the most unpromising situations can be turned around, but I feel uncertain about where the story ends.

Dr Harley has written more recently that he sees no chance of the marriage surviving if the WS does not "get it", in spades. (Well, not those exact words, obviously!) I think it was over the summer when he posted to aussieswife about her great sense of guilt about what she had done.

I wish Dr H could hurry with his new edition of SAA. I too get the feeling that he emphasises some things more now, like exposure, demanding that the affair ends, and the WS needing to "get it". Yet the later advice is not in a single source that all can refer to.

I think this might merit a new thread, atena. It's a good point and it might get lost on your thread - which is not about Plan B to recover the marriage anyway.

On our last point; surely a legal divorce in one country would be recognised by another? Wouldn't an Italian divorce be recognised if you moved back to the States?

If WH asks for a divorce, won't you still need to hire a lawyer on your own behalf? Is it normal for the petitioner to pay both bills?

I can see what atena might have meant about the WS coming back, Scottie.

Do you still agree with me NOW?!!

SC, thank you. Yes that is what i meant, that Dr H now tells not to take back a reluctant spouse but only one who is 100% sorry about what he did.
He does need to update SAA, he also added in the show that there is very little hope, if any, to R the M after 2 years in plan B or in separation.
The above has nothing to do with my plan B or my R my M.
In Italy the law say that the person who asks for the D needs to pay all expenses. Also if my H askes for D in the states (which is faster) then he would have to pay all the fees related to the legality of having the D translated and legitimate here in Italy. He will have to basically contact the Italian consulate and go thru them. A true nightmare in terms of time and also money.
Let him go thru that and pay the cost both in terms of patience and financial.
blessing

In my opinion, a new edition of SaA should deal with false recovery. I agree with you, atena, that it is a likely outcome where the WS comes back reluctantly - or in any case without signs of having "got it".

I can only think of sexymamabear just now, in relation to the WS moving out and false recovery. I don't think she would call TST's first period away from home a proper Plan B, but she did allow him to return home without tough conditions, and the affair simply continued.

The second time she did do Plan B, and he was not allowed to return without agreeing to many conditions. If he hadn't been eager to agree to them, she would have taken this as a sign of lack of commitment. He did eagerly agree, and their recovery has been strong and consistent.

MarriedForever went through false recovery too, and had to impose tough conditions at the start of Plan B.

I think that they are where they are now (i.e. in good recoveries) because they did not accept a reluctant WS back in their homes.

Yes, I remember how hard it was for Phoenix to go thru the roller coaster her reluctant WS was taking her thru only to tell her, at the end, that he could not ever love her again. She had suggested couseling with the Harleys but he never committed to that. Again a reluctant WS will not commit to much and when they do they might just go thru the motions.
It is a good sign when they are willing to compensate for their betrayal and do agree to what the BS demands of them.
It is really not worth the agony of taking a reluctant WS back.
My WH was so reluctant after his first A and he just went thru the motions for 3 years only to then leave me for his next OW.
I went thru h*ll and back for years. It is too much pain.
I know I said I would not take WH back and by that I mean not as he is now. But I do not think he is capable of being truly sorry for what he did.
Dr H says people can change and it is usually when they have an epiphany of some sorts. But he made it sound not easy or maybe this is the way I heard it.
blessing
Blessing

Do you think this is because of the BS losing their love for the WS or because of the WS, did DR H say the reason?

He did not, but from the context of the situation (a WH who left BW for another woman) it seemed that it could be both: BW losing love for WH and WH not giving up A shanko.
blessing

No, Phoenix did not take her husband back. She allowed him to counsel with Steve Harley to see if he was sincere. Before the reconciliation took place, though, he said his heart was not in it. The reconciliation did not take place.

It's "SKANK," you silly foreigner!!

I'm sure he says in a Q&A on this website that the WS is unlikely to return to the marriage after 2 years.

He talks about this in the context that Plan B is a risk, because of "out of sight, out of mind". The WS can just get used to life without the BS. If they don't return within two years, it is likely that they have just moved on, whether the affair ends or limps on for longer. He advises the BS not to continue Plan B for more than 2 years.

He also says that by the two year mark, the BS will have adjusted to life without the WS and divorce will be a lot less traumatic than it would have been earlier.

But I would add that this is true only if the BS is in a true Plan B; not if they are holding out hope, and still keeping an eye on the affair, as you seem to be, atena.

I'm sorry to say something that will probably annoy you, but your regular postings here about the affair belie your words about wanting to move on. I don't think you will WANT to move on until you FORCE yourself to move on by MOVING AWAY. I don't see any exception to this. There are no reasons strong enough to stop you moving, and until you do, you will not begin to let go.

Thanks for clarifying that SC...