Not telling the OMW makes you part of the affair conspiracy in a way! It only protects the OM not his wife. He hopes you won't tell!

Agree that whatever we POJA should be the end of it, and that that shouldnt be a problem since it will have to be something we both ENTHUSIASTICALLY agree to so neither will feel like we gave something up.

As for your comments TR, I get exactly what you are saying, especially the parts of the new BW might not believe it, and the exposed WH might become angry.

This is why I considered telling OMW about it, and suggesting she inform her BFF of the possibility, and that maybe they snoop to confirm or disprove on their own, totally not involving us. I give a tip, they check it out, if its confirmed, go with it, if not, well, I told the truth so... no harm there.

Marital and Scotland - you do not have to convince me that telling a BS is the right thing to do. I am a BH, I know its the right thing to do.

However, I have agreed to take my WW back and she seems to be making a lot of effort to rebuild a better marriage with me. So even if I think she is wrong in her opinion, even if I happen to KNOW (in my heart) that she is wrong, that still doesnt give me the right to engage in IB...

does it?

I think about, well, I am a certified EMT, and if I see a car wreck with hurt people, I am obligated to help, but I would still tell my WW this if we came by an accident and make sure she agreed with and supported my decision to stop and render life saving care.

Does this make sense?

So if your WW told you not to save the life of a drowning man or woman you would listen because it's POJA?

InLikeFlynn - your sig makes me sad. Sad for the selfishness of people. I cant imagine going through this 3 times. I just cant.

However, to clarify again, so people dont forget:
Me, WW
OM (was my coworker, but I never met/talked to anyone else in his family pre-DDay)
OMW
OMsBFF (dont even know his name... WW might)
OMWsBFF (OMsBFFs wife, also dont know her name)

OMsBFF has been cheating on OMWsBFF for about 10 years per what OM, possibly OMsBFF, told my WW. I am not sure on all the specifics because I didnt want to dwell on OM related topics and I was unsure about how to proceed. When I DO talk to my WW about this again, I will be asking those sorts of questions.

So, yeah, last questions still:

I know what I think is right, do I proceed even if its against my WWs wishes?
How could I go about convincing my WW of the right thing to do?

I DEFINATELY like the advice about truly listening / hearing what WW has to say about this. I think that is great because lately (last 2 months maybe?) when she has been babbling foggy stuff, she hears herself and realizes on her own that she is way out of line. I have almost always, since DDay, allowed her to freely state her opinions/thoughts in safety, even when I found them repulsive or unnatural. Now she seems to be realizing this herself and is often times ashamed of what she has said to me. These are the kinds of things that make me hope much more that she is slowly earning a Former to her current title.

Thank you karmarose... in that light...

no it doesnt make sense.

So are you saying I should ignore my WWs thoughts on the issue and tell OMW the knowledge I have? Should I inform my WW that I am going to do this no matter what she thinks or just do it and not say anything?

Ironically, on TV is a show "What would you do?" where there was this lady on a date with a guy, and the guy puts something in her drink, and they have the whole place on cameras to see if people will say anything or help the lady. Lots of scenarios like this, something bad happening to someone and seeing if people do anything about it.

WW says that its good for people to stand up and do the right thing...

I wonder if this is a positive sign....

So talked to WW about telling this other BW about her WH. My WW has agreed that the BW deserves to know. My WW now states that she hesitates to tell this BW because she is afraid the WH will know it was her that "snitched" and might want revenge.

This was an incredibly painful discussion, because I found out that my WW had actually met this WH and his AP in Myrtle Beach when my WW went there in early April bwith her OM. I knew that this guy was the one that payed for my WW room, but I didn't know him and his AP were also there, that my WW met them bothb and talked to them. This trip happened within a week of my wifes affair going PAFrom EA. She told me this guys AP had had her husband die recently, and that before he died he had found out that she had been cheating on him. This lady was, in WW's terms, "all f***ed up in the head" over guilt for what she had done to her husband. My WW described this lady as "crazy."

So this really hurts because here is my WW in a PA presented with a forshadowing of what her actions could come to and the pain they could cause and she just kept going on with it. IDC what sort of script there is or how WWs are 'posessed,' it still hurts how deep this betrayal was and I know I am not even close to 'over' it.

So anyway, after talking a bit, I referenced something Mel had told me in this thread, but couldn't remember exactly how it was said, so I was opening my thread to read it.WW asked if I was ok with sharing some of my thread with her. I decided I was and we started around page 13 or so (right before I found out, about a week). So she gets to see all of you telling me "she isn't going to the beach, she is with OM" and all the other things I was too stupid to listen to but you guys were all exactly right. Shortly after WW asked if we could continue some other time because she felt sick with herself. She apologized several times again, shook her head at you guys calling everything, and told me felt awful after seeing all the times I had 'defended' saying it wasn't a PA because "she wouldn't do that."

So not really fun for either of us, but is nice to share that with someone so important to me. Obviously it is a big life event for me.

WW has agreed that she can only view this thread in my presence with my permission. I don't think she has started a thread of her own though I wish she would and have told her so.

BT,

Let me offer you something to think about. Yes, you all need to tell the woman in question about her H. She needs to know so she can defend herself and make informed decisions.

As for you and your W reading this, I would ask you both to consider something. Frankly I think it is a good thing for both of you but only IF...you two learn something from this.

It is my belief that if you two can read your thread and actually learn good life lessons from it, discuss them, and then implement the MB approach with boundaries, your marriage will be much stronger.

I think it will help her to see herself, as most WS deny to themselves that they "really did that". But, more importantly when she sees herself she will be better prepared to nuture your marriage, you, and most importantly herself. She needs to nuture the good, address the bad, and grow.

As for you, reading this with her and discussing things will help you as well. At least this is my belief. The very fact that you two can read it, discuss it, learn what each was thinking, and then analyze better ways of coping and communicating will help your confidence and trust in her. And oddly her trust in you.

I think this is a win, IF you two learn from it.

God Bless,

JL

BT's wife....

My wife has posted here herself and it, combined with my posting, has made all the difference in our marriage and recovery.

At first...reading the threads of newbies may be disheartening. You will begin to feel angry for them at their wayward spouses...then, you'll have to fully reflect and realize you were that wayward spouse and take an inventory. It's such an interesting switch of paradigm where you FEEL anger at some strangers wayward wife or husband...but remember being like that wayward spouse too.

First it will hurt. Some guilt and shame may take hold...guild and shame YOU will finally be able to fully express to your betrayed spouse (not verbally but in the words you post to others on this very forum)....as you help others, with your perspective as a FORMER wayward spouse...you'll end up being able to distance your self from the label...personally and inevitable heal individually and as a couple.

Getting BT to forgive you MAY be the easy part...

forgiving yourself...is where it gets sticky.

However, failure to do so often has tragic results (another affair by you OR by BT, depression, mental illness, physical illness, prescription drugs, weight gain, car accidents, etc)

IMO...BOTH of you...TOGETHER....helping and posting to others in crisis is one of the best ways to overcome infidelity.

I know my wife and I would welcome your input and perspective.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks everyone, pepper, jl, and mrW, here, I am going to skip a lot and show her tese 3 posts.

She is registered on here but just hasn't posted at all. Hopefully that will change soon.

Talked to WW.

Basically expressed that it is my belief that the things learned from MB along with the help and support of this community are the only reason we are still together. That I would like it if she would take advantage of these opportunitiesa as well.

She talked a bit, I said my point, and after she thought about it said she would start a thread, though she wasn't sure what shed write about. I told her something would come to her I am sure.

How about a "Hi, I am BT's WW. This is my story......"

I would suggest that you stay off of her thread for a while at least. There have been times when one spouse will defend another and even other times when a spouse would start to argue about things.

Has she read all of the materials on here? Is it jut that final step from lurker to poster that we are talking about here? If it is, BT's wife, we really aren't that mean. Any 2x4's that are given are meant to help not harm. And honestly, no matter what you read in our posts to BT, it was meant to help BOTH of you. It isn't YOU we don't like, it is affairs. Affairs are the enemy of this site because they are destroyers of marriage. We would LOVE to help guide you through this as best we can.

I hope that helps.

I'll show your post to her.

I don't think she HAS read everything on this site, or HNHN, SAA, FILSIL, or IPY (all of which we now own). I wish she would. I wish she would do it on her own or ask me to do it with her. It seems like she doesn't think its as important as I do, but that's a DJ I think so I haven't said that. I just tell her my positive, specific, "I'd like it if we could spend 30 mins a day on an MB post, site or book," she says ok. Then I state it again a week later and ask when's a good time for her and will she agree to tell me when she wants to do it. She says ok. So I don't know if she is just agreeing to shut me up, but I can recall 2 instances where she initiated it, other than that it is almost always something I bring up. I have asked her this I think 5 or 6 times now over the last 4 months, probably 8 or 9 times if you count the times I asked her to check this out when I first found MB while she was still wayward. It is something that frustrates me. I do NOT want to slip back to the marriage we had. I was not happy, but was able to ignore the parts I was unhappy with by playing video games and ignoring the problems. I won't ignore my family like that anymore, I don't play games, and I refuse to suffer for it. Its not fair to either of us to go back to that, but that was the best marriage WE could come up with, so obviously we need some training, and not doing it isn't fair to either of us.

Especially when WE spend about an hour a night watching TV, unless I just can't force myself to do it, then I leave, and she might spend even more than an hour. I know she also watches some TV during the day, we get Netflix movies and I am not watching them with her so she must be getting another 3-4 hrs a week of TV time. I wish she would spend some of that time on us and our marriage. She says "I don't watch that much TV" or "I can't read books, posts, websites while watching DS during the day," but I add it up and its at least 8 hrs a week with just her 'shows' let alone the midless drivel that is just on sometimes. I guess when I say, "I think we watch too much TV and I would like to spend more time on MB and our marriage," I. Just figure I can't be any clearer than that.

Sorry for the rant, I just sat through another hour of TV wanting to scream.

I am a TV-aholic. If you added up how much TV I watch, it would be STAGGERING. I watch TV while I am on here. I watch TV while I am talking on the phone. My TV is very rarely not on. I can relate to TV watching. BUT, I KNOW that if my WH were to come home, I would need to POJA it.

I think that that is what is happening right now. I hear some resentment in your post. You gave up something that YOU enjoyed(playing games) to better your marriage and now your WW won't give up something for it. That isn't the way that MB works though, is it? And you having DJ's in your head and not expressing ANY of those feelings to your WW is also not MB. You need to let your WW know what you are feeling in a non-LB way.

So, does your WW know about MB at all? Does she know about 20+ hours of UA. Does she understand ENs? Does she agree to POJA?

I am just wondering how on board she is with MB.

I have seen other people, not using MB, try to recover their marriage and just slide back into old habits and never truly recover.

BT,

Just wanted to say how happy I am that you guys seem to be on the right path. I don't have much to add other than practice patience. I've been away from this site and not keeping up with the other threads but it was a very nice change to get updated on yours.

Keep doing the next right thing.

We have had I think about 8 sessions with jennifer chalmers, I have read most of HNHN to her, and stuff from this site, she asks me to read it to her for some reason. Sometimes she hasb a headache and asks me to read, sometimes she says she is tired. I don't know why she doesn't read during the day. I understand DS is time consuming (just under 2) but she has btime for TV, so I just don't understand.

She knows enough MB if nothing else than because of Jennifer,we know about 15 hrs, or 20 in our case, we know about POJA.

I don't know how to express myself, more specifically my negative feelings without love busting. I have trying to practice what jennifer taught us.
1: Identify what is frustrating/making my Taker angry, with the diagnostic, is it lack of care? Protection? UA? Exclusive need meeting? Etc...
2: develop a positive specific statement that honestly states what you want, and POJA
This is supposed to help avoid LBs, specifically DJs and SDs and AOs. It gives you the opportunity to express what you need/want from your spouse, without trying to force them to do it.

I often hesitate to express things that are negative because I dontwant to attack her, so I have to sit on it for a bit, often times writing it down or something. That's what I am doing now. We were watching TV tonight again, and I asked if we could read some FILSIL. She said sure but wanted me to read. I don't really like reading to her, especially at night, because I feel like she doesn't really pay attention, especially when she falls asleep. I feel like I am doing the "work" and she is just humoring me. I don't want to express these things because I am pretty suure they are DJs and I didn't have time to figure out a positive/specific for them instead. I was also tired and don't like to read out loud when I am tired so I told her that. I suggested we just read the chapter summary and discuss the Think About It questions at the end. She said no, she would rather read, and I replied "so read it then." She said why don't you read it with me, and I told her I had already read the book, which I dint think she knew.

So then she went and took a shower, and I was going to next, so while waiting, I saw Scotlands reply and posted back. I went into the shower and asked her if I could read your reply to her, and she said, "oh you're too tired to read the book to me but you'll read MB?" I was immediately furious so I walked out to avoidb saying mean. She got out, I took my shower, then went to fold clothes. She tried to talk, so I told her I was very angry and gave our codeword for "you are causing me unhappiness and I am protecting you from me by asking you to let me be for a bit," a technique jennifer taught us. Then I brushed my teeth, plugged her phone in for her, made the bed and turned down the sheets for her and went to bed. I tried to stay awake till she came to bed, or at least think about this stuff, but I really was tired and passed right out. 2:30am I wake up, use the head, and try to hug her in bed by me and she swears at me,, says don't touch her etc. Hurt, I tried to ask what's wrong, and after a half hour of begging her, she tells me she doesn't like being lied and explains that my "I don't want to read to you hecause I am tired" was a lie. She then refuses to discuss it further and tells me to go to sleep. I can't . I have been asleep for 5 hours and now this.

As far as resentment about the video games/TV, its there but not because. "She gets hers why don't I get mine," I resent it because she hated the way I would ignore them while playing. She knows what that's like. I stopped because I realised it was wrong and not putting my marriage first. Now she is ignoring me, watching TV and not putting our marriage first, and I feel like she should "know better" having been through it herself and having talked about it, and after I have expressed what I want. My Taker definately feels like my Giver is pulling all the weight, and wants her to take some initiative, do some reading, or something without me sking her to.

I am going to try finish writing some stuff out and thinking.

I need to be able to express myself, even negative feelings without LBs. I need to be able to identify DJs faster and learn to express myself positively better.

Its so hard, darn Taker just screaming, "HURT HER AND TAKE IT YOU DESERVE IT!!"

BT,

I think you are doing great. I know you don't feel like it right now but you are recognizing things about yourself and working to fix them it is a process.

One thing that jumped out at me is the DJ about how she spends her time during the day and how much TV is too much. My DH was always very judgemental about how I spent my day and I felt like I had to justify every minute of it....at one point I even wrote things down just to show him. This was all before my A so it wasn't about trust. It was about him questioning whether I was making productive use of my time. I felt guilty if I took a nap, read a book or watched TV. I would only talk on the phone if I was actively cleaning or folding laundry. In response to his criticism, I got defensive and sneaky.

Fast forward to now, I am obviously trying to change this behavior. I am honest when I need down time or when I have been lazy. I recognize that I am basically a useful productive person but I need some downtime also. Having said that I still have major DJ's (which I keep to myself) when he questions my activites. For instance last night, he worked late so it was almost time for bed when he got home. While I was heating him up something for dinner, I decided to prepare a crockpot meal for tomorrow. I had really just thought of it then. He was grumpy. I believe (major DJ alert so beware) that he was annoyed thinking I should have been doing that while he was at work so I could have used the brief time with him to cuddle and be affectionate. He didn't say this so I couldn't really respond to my own DJ. I know I wasn't avoiding him and my poor planning wasn't intentional; however, I had to fight to urge to get all defensive and negative about my day and all the work I do. It is a process.

I do believe you need to mention to your wife that you are missing her during TV time but with no expectations. It is the expectations that kill. Maybe you can ask her to rub your back while she is watching.

You know how little kids and pets always tend to bother us when we are on the phone? The more important the call, the more annoying they become. I think sometimes, we inadvertantly do that to our spouses as well. I have a friend whose husband calls her always in the middle of her soap opera. He knows it is on because he begins his phone call with an apology. She only watches one and only 2 days a week so it isn't like she is adicted...anyway, my point is that he is being disrespectful by not considering her needs as well.

Make sure you are getting your 20 hours of UA time and then POJA the rest without being disparaging about the mindless entertainment that she finds enjoyable.

Thank you SD, that is unique perspective that never would have occurred to me.

I guess I have trouble with the POJA part because I have been wanting her to have a chance to make the move.

I guess I will just have to initiate that too.

I don't criticize her use of time, IMO, but I hate TV. I am not religious but TV programming is the Devil. Even the commercials demonstrate betrayal, lying, selfishness, and deciet, so even if you DO find a decent program, you're still probably going to see a Mom smug with herself cuz she got away with lying to her daughter and stealing her shirt.

Its sad, no wonder people can rationalize throwing away all their values. Other than Food Network, ever show she watches features adultery almost every episode. Even Food Network has those disgusting commercials. Rather read HNHN and fell like a better person afterwards.

BT,

I know you are venting here and I realize you wouldn't never speak like that to your wife but reread your post and just hear how sanctimonious you sound.....TV is the Devil....betrayal, lying, selfishness and deciet.....Rather read HNHN and feel like a better person afterwords.....

Not saying your wrong, in fact I giggled when I read the commmerical you referenced as I have thought the very same thing. Just saying that as a WW who already did the worst betrayal ever and now to find out her favorite pastime is in league with the Devil incarnate....while her forgiving husband reads books to become a better person....How is she going to ever feel remotely adequate?

Please don't tell me you never eat junk food, do 30 minutes of cardio a day and always floss after meals.