I think what I said is being completely misunderstood.

The point was not to get you to focus on OM's good qualities. To the contrary. I was trying to shift your focus to use that list as a starting point for what you would want in an ideal mate.

The point is to get you to focus on what qualities are important to you.

If you makes the lists and go back in fills in the data points in support of each quality, I think what you will find is that you knew everything you needed to know about your H when you got married, but didn't listen to yourself.

My hope was in recognizing that you actually knew what you needed to know, but didn't listen to herself, you will feel more confident that you will make a better decision in the future and a reference point for behaviors that you would want your H to have or work on developing if he decides he wants to reconcile.

My other point was to give you a another reference point for what qualities she should focus on working on in yourself. I think Ben Franklin did that -- listed qualities and consciously worked on developing them one by one.

That was it.

I totally got where your coming from Seeking.

I will have a look at this. I suppose I know what qualities I would like in a guy, the question is every one puts themselves in the best light. It's been able to detect red flags!

Anyway right now the thought of being with anyone is (how do you do those puking icons) blahhhhhhh.

I feel really free though as though this huge ball and chain has been released. It's obviously a good thing. Still having weird dreams, dreamt last night that H and I were good friends and was in love with his bro! Weird....Am I meant to feel this good? Feel on a bit of a high.....

I have a nice weekend planned going to an art exhibition tonight with mum and sis, then tomorrow dinner with a GF.

I still don't really have an answer to your question JL. I suppose I don't know still what my potential is. My behaviour during the A was appalling, after the A I sunk into denial and self justification. I would say in the last 3 months I feel the best about myself since perhaps ivwas about 19.

I tend to do destructive acts when I am very low or have been hurt in someway.

I suppose that I take my boundaries too seriously and become very extreme.

I would now like to take some time being comfortable on my own and enjoying life and being happy. I

Harmony,

Let's look at what you just said. Potential? Let's see... Can you be better than the woman that had the A? Can you do better than feel better than you have since you were 19? Can you be a person in your work that people depend on? Could you be a person that could run your section, your division, your company? If not, what would it take for you to be in that position? Can you be a woman that can love a man for who he really is not who you think he is? Can you be strong enough to avoid justification and denial and become someone that sees ways to address issues without affairs or these other traits? Can you be a good chef? Can you be an artist? Can you be an effective leader in charitable organizations? Could you be an effective person in your chosen religion? Can you be an ordinary woman who affect people with extrordinary sensitivity, clarity, compasion, and honesty? I'm thinking you can be any of these things if that is what you want.

These are poor coping skills and estabilishing your boundaries should be accompanied with planned actions that allow you to address these situations with effectiveness and strength. You are not a victim and that should be one of your boundaries is that you may be victimized by someone but you refuse to remain a victim.

Nope you have not taken your boundaries too seriously, you just haven't taken the next step. What is the next step, that is to develop plans to address your boundaries in situation appropriate manners. Once you have the plans in place you will find that taking them seriously is not the issue.

Allow me to illustrate. I was a batchelor until my 30's. I was single, I had some change in my jeans, I had several degrees, and I traveled alot. I have a very "enjoyable" batchelorhood. When I got married I knew my job would require a great deal of travel as I was taking over the building of a company. My boundary was that I would never cheat on my W. To address this I made a plan. When I travel, I never go to bars, I don't go where there is dancing. I eat alone unless there are a group of people who are at the same meeting. I am NEVER alone with a female and I don't share personal information with anyone. I simply eat, go back to my room and either work or read. I have done this for well over 30 years. I missed home terribly, but not did I not cheat, I was NEVER tempted to do so, thus my boundary was not challenged. I would love to tell you that I am strong enough of character to withstand any temptation, but I cannot. But I have withstood temptation because I did my best to remove it from my life.

Are you seeing what I am saying about boundaries must be accompanied by plans, and thought out scenarios? You are mature enough now to know how to make those plans. Honestly, in my 20's I had boundaries (never dated a married woman for example), but was not real strong on other parts of the plans. I did know myself though and thus I created that plan.


And this my dear is exactly what everyone is telling you to do. Learn to be comfortable in your own skin. Put music on in your house and sit and enjoy it. Read, think, and examine your life. When you do this you will find that you will learn to really enjoy other people in your life, but you won't need them. At that point I believe you will be ready to engage in a more intimate relationship with a man and with other friends. You will know who you are, where you want to go, how you want to get there, and you will have a path in your life. I have observed that those that have a path in their life often find others traveling similar/the same path and that makes knowing them, loving them, and enjoying them sooo much easier.

Please think about this. I truly believe as you do and you reread the articles on this site, you will come to see the true power of what Harley has put here. He did not invent it, but he has organized in a very effective way.

Hang in there.

JL

Hi JL

As you can see, the potential question has really got me. I have kind of put my 'potential' on hold as I felt that I had done everything and the final piece of the jigsaw was to have a family then I would have 'completed' everything.

I have travelled the world, I have done exceptionally well in my career, I have great friends, I have a good family, I have helped others though charity work of those in crisis, but I have not had a family, so I suppose I just gave up 'trying' in all other areas as nothing else seemed to matter.

However, now I am separated, I know that I need to meet my full potential.



I have always been quite ambitious at work, until recently, probably the last 4 years. However, since I left my old company because of A, I have joined a new company and am actually really enjoying it. I could definetly put more into it.... I think I would be happier doing so. Its just to me I don't want to be one of those women that a career is more importanmt than a family or partner.



Yes definetly, I could never fall in love with an image or a promise, my concern is not seeing through a person...



Yes I think I can, I think for me I need to trust my instincts more and not feel bad for speaking up or being who I am. A lot of the resentment built with my H because I kept quiet to preventy being awkward or difficult so did not voice my opinion enough. I would definetly trust my instincts more and I think if I was more assertive with my H, then we would have broke up much earlier as he wouldnt have liked that.

I think overall, I am feeling much more able to achieve my full potential, I am just afraid by focusing on all these other things what I truly want won't happen.

I know this is not true but doing it is another thing.

I do think your right though, protecting your boundaries is also putting plans in place. For example, when my attraction started for the OM, there was neither anything emotional or physical happening, he was just there in the office and I was attracted to him, either seeing him or meetings or having lunch with a group of people. I was very concerned about my attraction to him, we had not spoken about anything personal, but I was concerned about the level of my feelings for him, they were very powerful, I was aware of his every move, and if we were in a crowded room out eyes would follow each other.

Anyway, a business trip came up for India where we would both be going. Now as soon as I knew about the business trip I was nervous I knew it was not a good idea. I put in for a transfer onto a different account, which meant I would not go on the business trip. The transfer was made efffective 3 weeks AFTER the business trip. The first night of the trip the OM and I were left alone in a bar after everyone else went to bed, and we carried on drinking. The rest is history.

So if I had put plans in place, I would have never gone on the business trip, if I did go I would have not stayed on my own in the the bar with him, I would have mentioned my H lots....So I know what to do here for the future.

I really am enjoying being alone. I am still fearful about getting fretful about H, about hearing something and getting upset or how I will cope with filing for D.

On the whole right now, I feel very happy, but could do with standing up, dusting myself down and reaching my full potential.

Actually Harmony it seems to me you are reaching your potential. You should be very proud and you should be very encouraged. You do see how my plan would have saved you if you had one like it when in India.

I will tell you there are many people on this planet that can be very attractive to us. If you travel at all, you will meet more than one. The solution is not to quit or change jobs, it is to make sure you have a plan for protecting your boundaries/weaknesses. If you noticed I implied that meeting women was not a problem for me. I wanted to make sure this "talent/weakness/temptation did not really occur.


From the sounds of it, you have had and will have no trouble attracting men. You issue is finding a man that can make your life complete. As for having children, you are still young and your clock is probably at least a decade from running out. Where I live many folks have children in their 40's and even late 40's for the women. I had a friend visit us once when my kids were in HS. We went to see my son play. He commented that it was really cool to see all of the grandparents come to the game. I laughed and pointed out, they were not grand parents, they were the parents. . He was suprised.

There are pluses and minuses for being older when you have children. I think the pluses outweight the minuses. Us "older" folks have more time and resources to devoted to kids.

Harmony, you are becoming an even better person than you were. Enjoy that, and grow.

God Bless,

JL

That is so true, JL. Recently I saw an article in my hometown paper about parents who in their 70s, had teenagers. They had chosen to have children in their 50s because they had more time and resources to devote to the children and were set up in their careers.

Very awesome progress Harmony. I am glad to hear you have had a lot of success in your life prior to meeting H, that your life has been full and positive for the most part.

Of course what is being talked to you about by mindshare, seeking, Nitse and others is you are working on your picker now. That I can relate to. As many can attest their are interesting people out there with great qualitys and chemistry but it doesn't mean they are good relationship material.

Wonderful qualitys that seem to be waiting to emerge and it seems you/we can make a difference in thier life. Where you got caught up in is what I see as a normal reaction towards support for someone in the name of love. Until the true character came out of the individual you were supporting/enabling. There is a fine line between the two. Its happened to many of which one was myself.

Then they blame thier problems on us and we buy it to some extent and over time it gets worse and we buy more until we are miserable and want a way out. Sometimes its the act of an affair which is destructive to the person commiting it as to the future of the marriage. Sometimes there is counseling and joint growth. Sometimes separation and divorce.


This is what I needed to learn a long time ago, but didn't until later, but I did learn it, in some ways, the hard way. My wife was a wonderful person and I would not accept that she couldn't address the areas in her life that caused her so much misery. I tried to bear the pain from drinking and many other issues for her and could not help her that way. Separation helped but core issues were not addressed and they again raised their ugly head later.

Finally being so vested and entrenched and with children who knew a different Mom I could not give up or help her when she fell at last, but I limped along and loved her for who she was at one time and who she could have been to this day. Much of this was to show the children how to deal with life and keep them from losing all hope in the desire to carry on what my wife and I started.

We both wanted a marriage in which the children were loved and secure, and we understood what that required, but the issues that plagued her life she lived in denial of eventually caught up to her anyway, even though I stayed and pleaded and even at times insisted she get counsel and help.

I loved her a lot, refused to believe, for her, that she would not eventually hit bottom and change, that she would respect my sacrifice and see how much I/We loved her and reach out and get real help, but it came with a price, and I will do anything to help others avoid that. Specially my children.

That is what I think you might have been heading if you had children with this guy. Not that your life or circunstances could have mirrored mine but that you would hold on by your fingernails for your family and the core issues your H has would remain until you either divorced or your life would be miserable. Its just so unnesessary to live that way.

Wanted to help you avoid it, and you are doing what it takes.


JL has posted a very balanced and as far as I can see also true assesment of your circumstances and future, along with what you should be working on. His advice is most valuable because he from what I can tell has lived a more normal life than many of us. Good parents, remained a decent human being in his youth, and made good choices. This is the kind of man I desired to be myself. I live with the knowledge that I really have no excuses for my mistakes and will never begrudge someone thier success and all of my problems are up to me to deal with reguardless of what I think or feel was a bad hand I was dealt. We can all grow towards maturity even if we grow at a different rate. Whats important is that we grow.

The reason I say this is using JL as an example of the kind of man that you can be with,(sorry JL), you can look for qualitys that show willingness to grow and mature along with demonstated humility with strength. These men exist out there Harmony, don't sell yourself short. I had a broken picker and picked wrong even though thier were great qualitys in the women I picked, they, and I, really were'nt ready for marriage, even though we wanted it.

Your picker seemed to have some problems too before, Please dream big on the guy you next choose, and be sure he has good character. I know you have learned a lot, but keep on learning. There really is no hurry, you will live and feelmuch better if you take your time.

I have to say that many people use thier misfortunes as an excuse to why they make so many bad choices and I have run into quite a few of them. They feel sorry for themselves. Its a disease in this world. When people want to get better or live a better life they take advice from those who have one, and emulate thier behavior and thoughts. JLs insight is astounding to me as an adult male and I am not afraid to say it because it deserves to be said. Thanks sir for your time and investment here. I for one respect it and have learned from it.

As many have said also, listen to JL Harmony. He is a voice of reason. Along with the others here who care about you.

Just received text from H, 1am in the morning UK time:

This is the hardest thing I have ever had to do and I think about you every second of every day x.

Hmmmmm, timing....

CP,

To butcher a phrase we all have to kiss a few frogs before we find a Princess or a Prince. I definitely did especially in my 20's. I had a tendency for the model types, the pretty life of the party types, and let's not forget those that needed rescuing? Tried all of that but got lucky and avoided anything major before I realized what I needed. When I say lucky I mean I had to have a fiance cheat on me to dodge one particular bullet. That one was tough but I learned.

Heck I am still Just learning. When you live a lot longer than most of you have lived you will be able to reflect back on friends and acquiantances whose marriages were long and rewarding, some that were long and painful, and a lot that where short and painful. But, then upon further review the people that ended up happy, always learned and grew. They always looked at themselves first to figure out what happened.

Bad picker, check. Wanting one thing but needing another, check. High maintence, but work and life too demanding to maintain, check. Focus on beauty (or for men toys) rather than the important things in life, check. Life of the party for whom the party never ends, check. On it goes.

The trick, as near as I can tell, is to be well grounded in who you are, what your boundaries are, and what you really need in a partner. This last one always triggers the famous saying

You take all of this stuff and then look at the MB program and you begin to see why Harley has the four rules for a good marriage, the policies of joint agreement and radical honesty, the questionairs on love busters, and the questionaire on needs. They lead one to start to evaluate what is important, what they need, and how to tell if someone matches up well. This stuff is really simple but it is subtle and it is not easy.

Must go getting late here.

God Bless,

JL

The text message has thrown me, then he turned up at the house this morning whilst I was asleep and woke me up. I didn't speak to him, I stayed in my bedroom. I think he is really struggling, looked the window and saw him he looked upto my window and saw me, I looked away.

For him to send a text like that is quite a big thing for him.

Any thoughts would be welcome.

Harmony x

Harmony,
The text might just mean he is finally realizing he is losing you, it's hard for him but you have to wait him out. Don't give in or he will never change.....
Patience Harmony, this is the key.......
He knows what he is suppose to do, you gave him the Plan B letter now the rest is up to him......if he is to proud then he isn't willing to do the right thing is he.....
Keep being the best you can be and grow as a person.........

What Jessie said....

Wait..patience.. stay dark...there is not gonna be a beauty and the beast thing today.

He needs to answer to for a lot of crap before Steve and your parents, and pass some tests of yours too....and time.

So where are you gonna go and what are you gonna do today now?

TTYL

Harmony,

What your WH is doing is fairly normal. You ARE meeting some of his emotional needs and have been and he is fearful the OW would not be able to down deep in his soul.

You must stay gentle but firm that the guidelines for plan B must be followed to show respect to your feelings. When your WH pops up during B...you kindly tell him you love him but mean what the letter said.

Only time will tell if his being away from you is permanent or temporary.

Only you sticking to your plan will show your WH that you are a woman to be respected. To be treated with fedelity to be with. To be cherished as a wife.

I know it is tough. Believe me.....I know.

Ahem�..actually, you shouldn�t have read the text. You should have deleted it unread.

I know, I know, it�s HARD.

I programmed OM�s number in my phone to pop up as DELETE � CONTAINS VIRUS. Silly I know, but a good reminder. After a while I changed it to DANGER DANGER DANGER � doubt you ever watched Lost in Space but that one made me laugh AND delete.

There is a peace and power in knowing you will be OK alone that is nothing to sneeze at. Choices made from that stable platform will serve you well.

And by the way, all other issues aside, this is EXCELLENT training for raising children.

Now how�s that yellow pad list coming?

This is really HARD. I have had a nice day and put the text to the back of my mind, I went out shopping with a GF and had a nice lunch.

At the end of the day its going to take more than a 1am text after a few drinks...a lot more....He came to the house whilst I was still in bed this morning, I didn't speak to him, I just stayed in my room he came in for 5 mins then went. He did the same last Saturday morning, I think he does this to to see if I am with anyone.

I will be honest that text has thrown me a little, I was on course. He is obviously struggling. I don't understand, he knows I love him and have tried to make it work, he is obviously struggling, why hasn't he come round and tried to talk? Pride before a fall?

Seeking - the yellow pad list is coming along quite nicely, started to make a few plans, and actually have the next few weekends booked up with some fun things. I am going to a friends birthday next weekend in London to this new restaurant, the weekend after I have a bonfire night party! I have made a start with my yellow pad list...:

* Go to Florence for the weekend, it is suppose to be beautiful, and wander around some of the museums.
* Get really into my interior design course, and put 100% effort into homework..really enjoying this class
* Go to the opera (never been)
* Spend some more time with my Dad
* Learn to kite surf
* Grow my own veggies

Well, its a start!! It is really difficult to plan anything too adventorous, for example some GFs have mentioned about going away for NYE, I am thinking well what happens if I book it, then my H has a real change of heart...

Harmony, being in Plan B isn't easy.

You need to not only NOT read the text messages(Good call Seeking), you should change your number or at MINIMUM block his(t/j Seeking, why haven't you changed your number? Even seeing that he sent you something will be CONTACT my dear).

You also should NOT have looked out of the window to see him. Also, I know that you haven't decided to change the locks(although I really think that you should), could you go stay somewhere else for a while? Somewhere that your WH will not be able to find you?

You are getting a "fix" everytime that your WH contacts you. You say to yourself, "See he really DOES love me." Well, he will try a new approach when this one doesn't work It WILL escalate. Please, cut off all contact. As good as it feels, it's not worth it.

Either that, or stop your Plan B and dive right back into what you already had in life. How was that working for ya?

You can't live your life on "what ifs."

Right now, you need to end ALL CONTACT with your WH so you can move on with your life. Walk forward and don't look back. Choose your own path. IF your WH decides to join you on that path, HE has to catch up. Start walking.

I know your right Scotland, it is hard. I have done quite well as I have not had a single conversation with him.

I should not have looked out of the window and he caught me too, ahhh

I think I am frightened to take the next step....and let him know I am serious. I think he will be very surprised that I have not initiated contact with him.

I really really don't want to leave my home, its really important as part of my recovery that I am here as thats my safety net.

SH did advise not to change the locks or remove his stuff though...hmmmm, maybe this is whats needed to let hubbie know I am very serious.

The text has thrown me today, and I need to get back on track, like tomorrow!!!!!

Since I went Plan B he has tried the following

1. Going dark on me
2. Being 'nice' by sending the tiler round
3. Trying to get sympathy vote, saying he has nowhere to go
4. Sendig me 'love' text telling me how hard he is finding it

What next?

Harmony x

Yes your right, I have been weakened by his text, I need to keep walking as though he is never coming back.

Well, he could just move right back in and decide that he will be OPEN about his affair.

THAT is a HUGE what if.

What you need to do is focus on yourself. You need to cut off ALL avenues of contact that he would have so it doesn't throw you again.