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Scotty,
Welcome back to my thread and thanks for the continued help. I am so encouraged by tonight's dinner. I called her on the way to the gym. We talked for about 20 minutes. Again nothing about us, but just connecting. I thanked her for dinner and she said it was nice. I think after this it might be time to try asking her out on a date again. Small baby steps. As I learned from Doormat's thread, it's not a sprint, but a marathon. As long as we are moving forward, some backwards steps, while maddening are expected. I just need to keep focused on the goal and making myself the best I can be. Hopefully as she heals she will see me as someone she wants to be with.


ME: 48
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Hi there,
You are on the right track, slowly move forward, slowly she will see the effort you are making and the comfort level she will feel......
good luck


BW 56
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Married 25 years, live together for 2, dated 2 years before that.....
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How do I respond to the "I get it that..." For instance "I get it that I am the bad guy for leaving you, but why do I feel that I am being punished for it?" OR "I get it that younger son is angry at me for leaving, but I still want to see him". First off he is not mad at her for leaving, he is intolerant of her treating him like she did me. He tells me mom is psycho. I quickly tell him mom is going through a tough time over the separation and give her understanding. Second if she really "gets it" she wouldn't be asking these questions and making these statement. I try to deflect it and say that I am encouraging him to see and talk with her, and tell her I am not trying to make her feel punished for it. Truth is, I am doing the opposite, I tell people that she was so far at the end of her rope she had to leave. I do tell them she left me; not "we separated" because "we" had nothing to do with it. But I would like a real comeback to her "I get it that..." that will not LB.


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Jessi,
Thanks for the encouragement. I am very encouraged over her bringing dinner and staying to eat with us. I think it's a big step forward, but we will see if it was real.


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Okay, I am completely engulfed in doormat's thread. Reading it is making me wishful I could have the same chance. My wife moved out and it is so hard to meet her EN when she is not here. She claims to have read HNHN for parents when I brought it home for me a few years ago. I doubt it or she would have tried it. Although she may have and in my depression I never saw any of it. I would love to sit her down and talk to her about MB, but I can't; I can't talk about our relationship. I can check her text history because we still share the same plan. She still texts POSOM. She still mostly says he is just a friend and she is helping him train for running. She has at times admitted she became attached to him; she won't call it an affair. But then she justifies it by saying she didn't start with him until after she decided to leave me. I have no idea what they talk about any more because I have no access to her phone, so I don't know if it is anything personal. I would still love to take a flight to Fla. and kick his [censored] for preying on her. He supposedly has a live in girlfriend. I have no access to her to tell her about the EA. She will be good and then we will have problems; I wonder if that's right after she has texts with POSOM? If I could get her to end it with him, I really think we could progress forward. I refuse to check her text history frequently because it would drive me nuts. Yes Doormat I have that trait with you. Now back to the last few pages of his thread; it is like a book I can't put down, I want to know how it ends.


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Originally Posted by awokenhubby
First off he is not mad at her for leaving, he is intolerant of her treating him like she did me. He tells me mom is psycho.
\

awokenhubby, I would encourage your son to tell her honestly about his feelings. It does not help her to not hear them. She needs to hear from everyone how disgusted they are by her behavior.

You do not have any control over whether or not she feels "punished.\" That is likely her guilt coming through and that is a good thing. The next time she says that, say "I am sorry you feel that way." And I would be up front about your son's feelings by saying the truth: he is very upset with the way you treated me.

Honesty works best on all levels. The worst thing you can do is whitewash her wrongdoing. That is bad for her, bad for you and most of all, bad for your marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by awokenhubby
thanks for the advice. I knew when I said it about her counselor that I was being mean and probably a LB. I also knew that when I walked out and said what I did, that it was a little too much and hurtful, but after putting up with it so long, and examining our marriage these last few months, I realize exactly what I put up with and what it did to me/us that it kind of all came out(she actually wore her wedding dress to go trick or treating as the bride of Frankenstein with the boys when they were little ; I said how I didn't like it and she ridiculed me for not being comfortable with it).


awoken, I am just catching on your thread, and I cheered when I saw the part where you were finally HONEST about your feelings about her treatment of you. You behaved perfectly in this instance. You told her the truth about how you felt and you backed it up with actions by leaving. She needed to see that you have boundaries. Your lack of boundaries and honesty in the past are part of the reason your marriage became so bad. You did great here!!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by awokenhubby
He explained that my depression was not caused by her treatment of me, but of my poor coping mechanisms of dealing with her treatment of me. I know that sounds like some psychobabble, but it makes some sense.

I agree with this. You were depressed because of her attacks, but you allowed them to take place. You had no boundaries. This also incented her to disrespect and hate you, because women do not respect men they can run over. By taking the stand you are taking, you are making a remarkable change in your marriage. By having boundaries, you protect the love in your marriage.

Quote
counselor then got us calmed back down and talked about how to communicate and leaving the issues in the past in past to effectively be able to co-parent.

I am still catching up, and maybe you realize this, but learning how to "communicate" will not save your marriage. You can be the best communicators in the world and still end up divorced. That will not save your marriage.

This is where Harley differs from other marriage counselors. They specialize in "communication," whereas he specializes in restoring the romantic love in the marriage. The latter is what will effectively save the marriage. People don't divorce when they are in love.

Dr Harley discusses it in this newsletter:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
I give you this advice because I want you and your spouse to be in love with each other, and I'm sure that you want that, too. But most marital therapists disagree with me on this issue. Because their advice is so pervasive, and so destructive to the love of couples that follow it, I use whatever opportunity I have to defend this crucial position.

The difference between my approach to saving marriages, and the approach of most other therapists, is that I focus on building romantic love (being "in love") between spouses, rather than simply focusing on conflict resolution. As it turns out, I also address conflict resolution, but I do it in a way that builds love between spouses.

Since most marital therapists fail to address the romantic love issue when they try to help couples, their approach to conflict resolution usually fails to build love, and as a result, the couples divorce, even after "resolving" some of their conflicts.
here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by awokenhubby
I would love to sit her down and talk to her about MB, but I can't; I can't talk about our relationship.

Sure you can! If you don't talk to her about your relationship she will conclude you don't care. I would definitely speak to her about it and tell her you know a way you can fall in love again. Then tell her about Marriage Builders.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by awokenhubby
He supposedly has a live in girlfriend. I have no access to her to tell her about the EA. She will be good and then we will have problems; I wonder if that's right after she has texts with POSOM?

awokenhubby, can you get a landline number for his house? If so, I would try calling his home to see if you can get ahold of his live-in GF. [disguise your # using *67 so he doesn't see your name on the caller ID] Telling her about the affair might be the impetus to kill it off.

I would also do more to kill this affair by bringing it up and demanding she end the affair. Not mentioning it gives her the impression that you don't care. You should be causing as much trouble in the affair as possible, including confronting the OM and telling him to buzz off.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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. . . but learning how to "communicate" will not save your marriage.

No kidding. In my experience, "We don't know how to communicate" really means, "My betrayed spouse refuses to believe my lies, gaslighting, word games and general bullcrap any longer, and I don't know what to say to get him/her to believe all that again."


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Melody, welcome back to my thread and thanks for all the advice. Well I'm not sure if I blew it or helped it but we just had a long talk in the driveway again. After reading Doormat's thread I got very encouraged and began looking at things differently. While out on my ride today (37 miles, only one more ride and I hit the year; 2010 miles!!!!!) I began thinking about my wife and her feelings. Even if they are in my mind unjustified, they are real and justified to her. We need to reach POJA on everything. So even if it makes sense for me to take younger son home from football, I should let her do it as well to spend time with him. I need to make more opportunities for him to spend time with her. I will split this so I don't make it too long.


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So I came back from my ride and she had come to take the dog for a walk. When she brought him back I walked out to the car to talk to her and tell her about my revelation about taking son home and needing to let her feel more a part of it. I then began talking to her about us and our relationship and trying to make it work. She so hates herself for the way she treated me, she can't ever have a relationship with anyone again. She thinks she is a nasty, evil, [censored]; which is what she became at the end. She hates me for making her become that way. She has forgiven me for what happened, but she can't forget it. She can't forgive herself for the way she treated me. I told her: 1. That I forgive her for the way she treated me and if we rebuild our love she can find forgiveness for herself.
2. That we shouldn't forget what our marriage was like and use that as a reminder and incentive to make our marriage great and never let it get like that again.
3. That with the things I have learned for reading Harley and the changes I am making that I know we can fix it.


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She feels that her heart is so broken that it can't be fixed. I told her I know that it can. I told her I am optimistic that our love can grow back. She doesn't think so. I then told her that if we divorce, don't think that we will be friends; if she is not my spouse, I don't want her in my life at all. So she is like why should I try to reconnect and then not have it work and get hurt all over again? I simply replied because the reward of a happy marriage is worth the risk; and if we work at it, it won't fail. She said but there are two possibilities and she has to think of the other. I said but if you are determined to make it work, it won't fail. So now she is scared to try because she is afraid of failing and me never having anything to do with her after she reopened her feelings.


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She was good at using some of the things she is learning in counseling. As she was getting frustrated, she replied I need to take a break when I feel like this; it stopped the AO from escalating. She didn't want to say something, but with my encouragement about complete honesty and openness she did. She said she can't believe it's true that I was depressed and suddenly I'm cured. She can't believe that I can now do everything right, the way she wanted me to all along. I said I'm doing it all for two reasons: I have to, she is not here to do it; and I can do it without incurring her wrath for not doing it her way. She asked why does it have to be your way. I replied that it shouldn't be one way or the other but she should reach a joint conclusion we can both live with.


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I left it at: I don't want you to move back in right now, it wouldn't be good for either one of us. I am asking for us to start talking more, and seeing each other and doing things together. Let's see what can happen if we spend time together and working on all the new stuff we have learned in the past few months and see what happens to our feelings for each other. I mentioned the books again; I don't want to force them on her, but I do want her pick them up on her own and read them. If she does I think that she can see that we can rebuild our love and make it work. She calls herself an adulterous, not because she had an EA, but because she left me and therefore can never marry again according to the bible. To which I said all the more reason to make the marriage work so she can have a lifelong relationship and a good marriage


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Sorry so long winded but it was a major conversation. Please give feedback on what I did right and wrong and where to go from here.


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Melody, I don't know his last name to try and find a landline; I don't even know if he has one. I would like to go down there and tell him what he is doing to our marriage, but then I would need a spot to hide the body!LOL Last time I tried to talk to WAW about the EA and POSOM her comment was he is a friend who is helping her through this. It is a safe friendship because he lives and Fla. and nothing will ever come of it. She is only helping him train. Other times she admits it was an EA, but she didn't start with him until she had already decided to leave me. Still way foggy. I am hoping if she wants to try spending time together and make this work I can bring up her having NC with POSOM and writing him the NC letter. Thoughts on this approach?


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I think I am going to give her a copy of HNHN and ask her to read it to show her how we can get back to being in love. Thoughts on this?


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Originally Posted by awokenhubby
I am hoping if she wants to try spending time together and make this work I can bring up her having NC with POSOM and writing him the NC letter. Thoughts on this approach?

AH, I see some really good progress here, but i am concerned it is all for naught if the elephant in the living room is not brought up. You are talking about painting the girls bathroom on the sinking Titanic but purposely avoiding discussion of the sinking ship. The sinking ship has to be brought up FIRST because nothing else will matter until the ship is righted.

I am also concerned that while giving your wife the impression that you don't care by not mentioning the OM, that her affair with him becomes more and more entrenched. All of your efforts will be for naught if she is still in contact with her OM. It is meaningless. I would strongly suggest bringing up the affair often and causing as much conflict as possible. The OM won't want any trouble from you and will likely dump her when you press him.

Don't worry about this being a lovebuster. She will get mad, but it is for a good purpose. Once you get rid of him, THEN you will find some traction in your strategy. Your ships sinks without it.

Additionally, POJA and the PORH is only for RECOVERY. It is never for situations where there is an ongoing affair. You shouldn't be negotiating with a terrorist; that only hands her inappropriate power. She should NEVER be informed of your snooping techniques. That is FOREVER off the table since she had an affair.

This is from an email from Dr Harley:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
There are two situations where I don't recommend radical honesty or the POJA: Abuse and infidelity. In the case of infidelity, if one spouse suspects the other, I have gone so far as to encourage hiring a private detective to help investigate, using spyware, keyloggers, putting a gps on the car, and all sorts of other snooping methods. If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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