It will be a delicate balancing act between discouraging his first good thoughts in quite some time, and setting the bar too low.

IMO, you should have him talk to SH again, but with you setting your own boundaries which Steve can then discuss with WH.

You've been here long enough to know what you will need to R, like complete NC, full access, etc. (Hint: The tactful way to present full access is that it applies to both of you, to protect both of you and assist you to become intimate and bonded with each other again.)

If you don't at least give him an opportunity to step up to the plate, you'll always wonder what would have happened.

HOWEVER

Do this in a way that will protect you in the event he doesn't follow through. Take it very slow.

What I would recommend as you go through this:

1. Radiate confidence - confidence in yourself, and confidence that the two of you can be happily married and in love IF he will do the work necessary for you to heal. Borrow some of our confidence if you need to.

2. Do not talk about a D. Tell him you're his wife, and intend to remain his wife. He can D you if he so chooses - if he wants to have an adulterous woman instead of his loyal W and family. Put it back on him, and don't let him for a moment think you will be his easy way out.

3. Don't make promises. "We'll see. It all depends on you. What are you willing to do to be part of the family?"

4. Your first meeting with him, don't bring up all your boundaries. It needs to be as Plan A-ish as you can, with FULL NC being the first door he must be willing to go through. If he won't agree to NC, the rest doesn't matter and you won't have wasted your time.

5. If he does agree to NC, praise him, tell him you know it's very hard for him to choose that and you're proud of him. Then tell him that you'll give some very serious thought to what you would need from him in order heal. You KNOW you can love and trust him again, and you'll let him know what he can do to help you with that. Then end the meeting.

6. If you make it as far as this, give him your list of boundaries, each presented as lovingly as possible. (Not just "do this or you're out", even though that's what you're secretly thinking inside.)

7. At any point that he is unwilling to do what you ask, whether it's NC or the other boundaries, take a deep breath, smile, and say, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I know with all my heart that we can be happy again. Please let me know if you change your mind, and maybe it won't be too late." Then leave, still powerful and smiling, and refuse to engage with him.

This is your Red (or whatever color you like) Cape of Power moment. Take it, and use it. YOU ARE STRONG ENOUGH TO DO THIS!

{{{{{NP}}}}}

I wouldn't expect to see this from him until he's had a while in NC to begin defogging. The fact that he doesn't seem to feel this way now doesn't indicate one way or the other what the outcome will be.

It just means he's still a foggy, entitled waynerd who isn't ready to come home. I knew that anyway.

There's plenty of time to figure this out, and see if he's serious. Or, more accurately, if he becomes serious.

However, Dr. Harley has been very up-front in the radio show that in order to end Plan B, you usually have to negotiate an end to the affair first. In other words, the affair usually isn't over when the unfaithful spouse wants to reconcile; it's possible to negotiate an end to the affair together.

The goal is to move things toward reconciliation.

If he won't break up with the OW after your first meeting and agreeing to the transparency requirements, actions speak loudly: he's not ready to recover. If he does implement all the transparency, separation from OW, and recovery agreements you negotiated on your date, and shows remorse for his actions, then he's doing what needs to be done and reconciliation is possible.

So what I'm saying here is that remorse for his actions, no-contact-for-life with OW, transparency, and commitment to a program of marital recovery are required in order for you to recover. But they aren't required prior to you negotiating with him to end his affair. If he won't play ball, back to Plan B and eventual divorce you go.

Bring a copy of the Plan B letter with you to the dinner, just in case he claims he doesn't remember what your requirements for recovery were, though.

Oh, and a last note, from Surviving An Affair: let him do most of the talking, explaining how he's going to do whatever it takes. Sit back and watch how he acts to gauge whether he's ready or not.

NP, this should be your objective, although I would reframe #1 a little to: "how will he assure you that all contact is ended?" What is his plan?

Also, if you can afford it, I would strongly suggest doing the online course over the home study course. The reason is because they assign you a coach and give you daily access to Dr Harley in the online course.

You go, NP!

This. +1. Quoted For Truth.

Where did you find the photo of me?

lol awesome emoticon!!

Thanks for all the advice. It's helped clear my head a little too.....I wonder if this is just more of a control thing from him. Like he feels he's losing his hold over me so he needs to re-establish it?

I can't Plan A at the meeting unless I know it's what I do indeed want. I can't promise I intend to stay his wife unless I DO, you know?

Also what if this is just him having commitment issues? Married, needs an affair - moving in with OW, needs to know his options are still open.....

I don't know how serious he is. I think the best advice from here (along with establishing boundaries) was that he needs to leave OW and be on his own before he can come home, so I can see how serious he is. And I like the idea of letting him do the talking.

THANK YOU for the advice, everyone!!! I'm lucky to have support to lean on here, I really am!

This is a very dangerous time and it needs to be emphasized that there is no reconciliation, or even resumed contact, until the affair ends. Every WS tries to get the attentions of the BS BACK without ending the affair, because his goal is to have both the BS and the OP meeting his needs. A WS is a bullsh** artist who will typically use weasel words to see if he can achieve his goals, such as "I will be trying to end....." or "I would be willing...." If a BS isn't careful, her WS could be "trying" for weeks while a weakened BS ends up in the nut ward with a nervous breakdown.

So, there is not really anything to negotiate. The affair ends or there will be no further contact. If the affair has not ended, then the WS has to explain how that will happen and it better happen REAL DAMN FAST or she should not resume contact until it does.

We have people on this forum who suffer from post traumatic stress disorder from false recoveries. This is not something to be played around with.

I have been an IM for many people over the years, and with the exception of ONE WS, they all attempted to get the BS to open up contact again so they could test the waters at least once before they got serious. They wanted to see if they could manipulate the BS into opening up contact while they carried on the affair. The BS has to be on guard for stunts like this.

NP - You have already endured at least one false recovery.

I like the idea of referring him to Steve Harley and requesting time to see his commitment to NC and Extraordinary Precautions before he gets to move back home.

He's had his time to play. Now he needs to take the necessary time to demonstrate he's permanently DONE with playing you.

I like the idea of the date this week AFTER he's talked with Steve and Steve has given you the ok to proceed. I see you being a woman of strength, as you dodge the commitment to accept him home by placing your hand over his heart, looking into his eyes and saying, "We've been here before; we need to proceed differently than before. Let me know what your plan is and let's take this ever so slowly because I know you don't want to add any more hurt to me and our children. Steve can help us do things differently this time." Then, looking ever so exceptional on the attractive spouse scale, walk away with the responsibility for recovery squarely where it needs to be.

If it happens that he tries to lay out conditions for recovery on you, that ship has sailed. Do not meet him under these conditions. He will badger and bully you to a pulp. Remember - you don't need to be married so badly that you'd endure another false recovery.

What Mel said, NP. It's pretty simple, really.

I suspect that your WH is in a state of conflict right now, because he's at a point of commitment with the OW, even if it's just sharing a roof. I think he views it as a point of no turning back, and he's not comfortable being in that position.

Be careful. Make your lists.

OK but has he said this applies to someone who has already done Plan B, taken the WS back and suffered a FR?

For me personally had I already broken Plan B and suffered through a FR and was BACK in Plan B, I would never dream of going on a date with a WS without at least a commitment to NC. I understand the other stuff like remorse & plan of recovery, EPs etc might need more time& negotiations...

I really like this, ML. Thank you. I have been wondering if this is indeed just him testing the waters. He keeps talking about how happy OW makes him but that she can't give him everything he wants because what he wants is his family. Why did he leave then? And why is he agreeing to move into a place with her and TALKING TO ME ABOUT RECONCILATION all at the same time??? It makes me very deeply uneasy.

You know, I'm sure I have played my part in the destruction of our marriage. I'm sure he wasn't totally happy with me or he probably would never have had his boundaries down. But I didn't choose to leave so I really like the idea of him going NC and defogging before coming home, if that's what ends up happening. I am getting a pretty strong bullsh*t radar when it comes to him and I wasn't feeling great about this. Also still just very unsure if he is capable of change.

I really like the idea of him talking to steve as well, before we can go ahead with anything. That is a fantastic idea.

In my experience as an IM, the WS is rarely serious at first. Rather he does not like the loss of control over you and wants to see if he can finagle resumed contact while he carries on his affair. He may be testing the waters to see if he can get you to change rather than HIM. The goal of a WS is always to have BOTH the BS and the OW. They don't give up on that goal easily.

I will warn you that these false overtures are very, very painful to a BS. Many a BS has come out of a nice, serene Plan B only to be subjected to manipulation and scorn from an angry, insincere WS who only wanted to regain control. It is a huge risk. I have watched hopeeternal go through an amazing transformation by being away from her WS only to be thrown back into hell when her WS wanted to meet to "discuss the future." He only wanted to rail at her about his affair is all her fault and how mean her exposure was. It was very, very hard on her.

Who can figure out a wayward's mind?

NP, true story: a friend of mine was married for about 10 years. Her H started an online affair. He ended up bringing skankho to our state and they started shacking up together. It took 15 months for him to want to come home.

He tried the cake-eating bit with my friend and she was having none of it. Immediate NC was her first requirement. When he realized she wasn't as easily manipulated as she once was, he shipped the OW back to Texas. Only then was my friend ready to proceed with negotiating his return to the M.

That was nine years ago. They're doing well. It can be done,but you need to know exactly what you require, set that bar high and demand no less.

No date until NC is actually in place, not just agreed to.

If you do have him counsel with SH, as I hope you do, the main difference this time needs to be that, instead of SH steering the negotiating himself, he steers it by what you have already told him you are willing to accept, and not accept.

If Steve knows your conditions for allowing WH to resume C with you, as well as what it would take before you let WH move back home, he will be in a good position to lead WH that direction. Steve can say things to WH in negotiation that just wouldn't work for you to say.

I'd think twice before moving in with a homewrecker, too.

This doesn't make any sense. If he is still planning on moving in with her, I wouldn't waste my time. If I were your IM I would be asking 2 questions:

1. have you ended your affair with Skankyhola?

2. are you committed to recovering the marriage?

In order to just stick his toe in the gate, the answer must be YES to both or he doesn't even get to first base. There is nothing to talk about unless those things happen.

I have seen such devastation when a WS manipulates his way in like this. I talk to hope-eternal on the phone and her voice goes to assured and happy to meek and despairing and hopeless after he gets through with his crap. It knocks her down badly. She is able to get back up in a few days, but it is not worth it.

Yes, totally agree!

Setting the bar so very high, even at the risk he might walk away, is the best thing you can do for you, and the best thing you can do for your M.

If he is willing and does all the necessary work, you WILL love him again. If he isn't, that's no reflection on you. Either way, protect yourself and be ready to go fully dark again at a moment's notice.