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MelodyLane and HeadHeld,

I did see the post. I am not sure it is possible to get rid of -all- the reminders...there is a limit to how much memory can be erased when 4 weeks are involved, but I get your point. At least whatever objects are left. This will be emotionally taxing on her. Should I wait until there are a few love units in the bank?

I came across MB early on but viewed it simply as another resource. I decided to come back after it became clear that even the best couples counselors in our area felt that they could not deal with the "I never loved you" issue. My wife does not want to settle for a boring life and relationship. I don't want her to have to. MB is the one thing that I have found that seems to address what really bothers her emotionally.

Off to class. Thanks so much!

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Originally Posted by Celtic
I did see the post. I am not sure it is possible to get rid of -all- the reminders...there is a limit to how much memory can be erased when 4 weeks are involved, but I get your point. At least whatever objects are left. This will be emotionally taxing on her. Should I wait until there are a few love units in the bank?

i would wait about 60 seconds to demand she get rid of all reminders of the OM. It is bad for her withdrawal and extremely disrespectful to you. So maybe 45 seconds. Keeping such a reminder makes it more emotionally taxing on her.

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I decided to come back after it became clear that even the best couples counselors in our area that I liked felt that they could not deal with the "I never loved you" issue.

Traditional marriage counseling has an 84% failure rate and doesn't have the slightest idea how to save marriages. I'm glad you came back because you really can get help here. "I never loved you" is a CLASSIC affair comment. And even if it is true, this program is the remedy.


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Originally Posted by Celtic
I did see the post. I am not sure it is possible to get rid of -all- the reminders...there is a limit to how much memory can be erased when 4 weeks are involved, but I get your point. At least whatever objects are left. This will be emotionally taxing on her. Should I wait until there are a few love units in the bank?

It depends in my opinion. No question the reminders have to go but it's better if she does this voluntarily that you demanding it and forcing her to do it. She will see for herself that she needs to get rid of them as her fog clears a little and you can explain that her keeping them is disrespectful to you. If she doesn't respond to this approach I would say your marriage s in serious trouble anyway.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
[
Please! Give me some "old people love!"

This does not describe what Marriage Builders means, though. It is about heart thumping, infatuated, rip your clothes off kind of love. MB is not talking about peaceful co-existence, but passion.

So, are we going to DJ demented octogenarians? I am not referring to peaceful coexistence, either.

I am saying that this notion of "old people love" as a "bad" thing is... stunted. I know, I know... nobody wants to think of two 80-year-olds in bed, but this same passionate, romantic love is what leads to the the little old lady holding her husband's hand, just to be near him. This is the opposite of the little old lady that abandons her husband in the nursing home and visits once every other week or so.

I see this "old people love" every day. The love, care, and YES, passion that these life-long partners have had and maintained. Their minds and bodies broken, their spouse is the greatest thing in their life.

I've watched a wife cry for the pain she puts her husband through as her health steadily declines, and her husband simply clutch her hand and tell her he loves her - and work himself to breaking to take care of her.

Old people love is bad?

No.

This is a point I will not take any argument on. Give me the old people love that I get to see, working with them in their home. It has a terrible beauty, it is immense, and it is awe inspiring.


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Originally Posted by HeadHeldHigh
This is a point I will not take any argument on. Give me the old people love that I get to see, working with them in their home. It has a terrible beauty, it is immense, and it is awe inspiring.

Yes, it is nice. But it has nothing to do with what we are discussing HERE. What we refer to here is romantic, passionate love. It is real important to make this distinction when you are talking to someone who has fallen out of love. The GOAL is romance and passion, not a peaceful co-existence.


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Originally Posted by Celtic
MelodyLane and HeadHeld,

I did see the post. I am not sure it is possible to get rid of -all- the reminders...there is a limit to how much memory can be erased when 4 weeks are involved, but I get your point. At least whatever objects are left. This will be emotionally taxing on her. Should I wait until there are a few love units in the bank?

She is addicted to OM and will trigger when she sees reminders. You're not being mean to remove these. You have the right to remove them. You are helping her through withdrawal.

If your WW was addicted to alcohol, would you leave a bottle of Jack Daniels on the nightstand? I'm thinking no. I suspect you would be sensitive to her addiction and remove reminders from your home.


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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Originally Posted by Celtic
MelodyLane and HeadHeld,

I did see the post. I am not sure it is possible to get rid of -all- the reminders...there is a limit to how much memory can be erased when 4 weeks are involved, but I get your point. At least whatever objects are left. This will be emotionally taxing on her. Should I wait until there are a few love units in the bank?

She is addicted to OM and will trigger when she sees reminders. You're not being mean to remove these. You have the right to remove them. You are helping her through withdrawal.

If your WW was addicted to alcohol, would you leave a bottle of Jack Daniels on the nightstand? I'm thinking no. I suspect you would be sensitive to her addiction and remove reminders from your home.

Agree. This is a boundary issue. Keeping a picture of the OM is very disrespectful and I put it in the same category as renewed contact.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I'm also all for old people love.

It reminds me of something my ex said to me, though. She said I acted older than my age. I am 7 years older than her.

So this statement tells me a lot about Celtic's WW.

Celtic, your WW is infatuated with the idea of Hollywood fantasy love.

What is her age? What is her background?

Why do you want her back and don't feel you can do better?

Those are all questions you must answer regardless of whether or not you will stay or go in your marriage. They are really things that you need to wrestle with and answer for yourself. What are your thoughts on those questions?

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Helpthelostdads:

Contrarian thinking is actually appropriate in some cases and your raised some issues.

First: immaturity. This is the most difficult thing for me to swallow because in so many ways she has been beyond her years for a long time. Her self motivation, responsibility with finances (don't worry, I see her paycheck and all the books), ability to form meaningful intergenerational friendships, willingness for give and take in our marriage, etc., are not entirely gone and were really high for a long time.

But there were some things there that were a problem. She by her own admission has difficulty expressing her most intimate thoughts and desires to anyone, and so I was in the dark. The affair took place in a fantasy atmosphere that allowed her to work those things out. Had I known how unfulfilled she felt on a deep level I would have tried harder, at least. Then again, I should have seen the warning signs and didn't. Its no excuse, but I have to accept that I didn't do my job.

So yes, she is immature, emotionally, in some ways. It frightens me more than anything in trying to resolve our issues.

Having said that, I love her (moreso than most of my friends can believe or understand), we have over a decade and a life together, and neither of us wants to start over.

Someone mentioned "Hollywood" romance. I've talked to her about this. I know she understands, at least cognitively, that "Hollywood" isn't real, that her affair wasn't real even if it made her feel good, and that he didn't love her. She wept over the fact that he never told her he loved her, which of course is indicative of some of the immaturity, although on the other hand she says she knew he never would.

So she is struggling-wanting a deep and meaningful romance and maybe not being able to differentiate that from Hollywood. The fact that she does understand that there is a difference, though, is a start.

We are in our early to mid 30's, both from conservative backgrounds having become more moderate to liberal as we got older. (Really, she could not have become -more- conservative, short of becoming a Shaker!) We went to church regularly before this, and I still do. She has but is miserable when she is there, so it is not that frequent. Both of her parents are ministers, so the remorse and confusion must be searing. Her best friend left her husband for another man last year, and she was incredibly critical of that decision and nearly broke off the relationship. Yes, affairs ARE contagious.

We are both, admittedly, afraid of never being loved the way we want to be. At least we have that in common! Maybe I could start over, but I am a one woman kind of guy and at least know what this relationship needs to succeed.

And, I genuinely, though not blindly anymore, love her.

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Cel,

I have no doubt that you love her and that it is very real to you. You really need to take a very hard look at whether or not she has a hole in her psyche that anyone could ever realistically fill. I had an ex fianc� who was very attractive. She was pretty hot. I overlooked a great deal because of that. She has either borderline personality disorder or is bipolar. Either way, there was nothing I could do as a husband for her that would make her happy. I really felt that if I married her that she might actually stray. I knew it in the back of my mind. She functioned more on instinct than on morals and accountability.

I didn�t marry her and she�s now on her fourth husband. That�s four husbands and she�s in her early thirties. She�s cheated on her latest husband.

My point is that some people have deep scars in their personalities which no one can ever fill or fix. I get the impression, based on the little information you�ve given, that your WW falls into the category of someone that can never be happy with what she has and will forever be looking for what is out there and for more.

I really believe MB works on people who are normally healthy, have poor boundaries, and then find themselves drawn into the fantasy of affairs. It�s something we�re all vulnerable to. But there are others that no amount of Plan A, Plan B, etc, will help. They�re simply people who are broken on the inside and generally unhappy with life and always in search of that next best thing.

BTW, this ex of mine, after she left me, sought me out later on. Her subsequent two husbands weren�t making her happy. I fell for it the first time. I went back after she left husband number 3. I had matured enough to see her for the disaster she was and it didn�t go very far. She sought me out with husband number 4. At that point I had discovered MB and was adamant that she and I couldn�t meet and that she should fix her problems with her H.

My ex W is also someone who requires constant, never ending attention from whomever she�s with. I wasn�t able to give her that. She sought it out from strangers on the internet. We�re divorced now.

I love my kids more than anything, but if I had the ability to go back in time and walk away from her like my instincts told me to 11 years ago, I would. I was right then. The decision cost me in the sense that I have to forever deal with her in my life.

I very strongly recommend you take a good hard look at the type of person your WW is. Have her expectations always been there and been unrealistic? Will she ever be happy with what she has or will she forever be searching for what could be?

You have no kids with her. You�re afraid to walk away mainly because you don�t know any better. The advice I offer to you is to simply chew on the fact that there are tons of very good, morally strong women out there. Those conservative values matter in the sense that there is really no moral relativism when it comes to adultery and marriage. It is a sacrament between you her and God that no man is allowed to break. Yet, the only justified reason for D in the Bible is adultery.

I married someone who didn�t value that (the first time). I made sure I looked for a woman the second time around who did value that. Doesn�t mean she and I are in any way perfect. We�re both human and are both susceptible to the temptation of adultery. It�s the knowledge that we are susceptible that makes us strong since we can keep our guard up to forever defend ourselves from that temptation.

If you walk away now from her, you have nothing to tie you to her. There are no kids to put through a custody fight. If your WW is one of those people who have that void in their psyche, then having kids with her will mean that you will one day face that battle since she�s likely to stray again.

I just offer you those things to chew on. If you want to save your marriage, then there is nothing better than MB. If, however, your wife is a broken soul, no amount of MB will help.

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Thanks Helpthelost.

Just so you know, I have actually looked at a lot of the clinical issues you describe. I asked our first therapist about them, but they did not think there was anything that qualified as illness. That person was a social worker though, not a clinical psych. At this point, I still think it is more her fog talking than anything else.

I am prepared to accept that this may not be the case though. I have talked to her about the happiness issue, and she knows it is a problem. It is one of the reasons I really want her to see a psych.

Until this, my wife maintained a fairly conservative view of marriage. We're more FDR liberals! Now that this has happened she is all over the map, but again, I assume the fog is talking.

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Originally Posted by Celtic
So she is struggling-wanting a deep and meaningful romance and maybe not being able to differentiate that from Hollywood. The fact that she does understand that there is a difference, though, is a start..

The only difference from my perspective is that her feelings for the OM were not sustainable because of the obvious problems in the relationship. She has a much greater chance of creating and maintaining a deep and meaningful romance with her HUSBAND, because that relationship is sustainable.

So, yes, Hollywood romance and passion is much more possible in your marriage than it was in her affair. That is what I am trying to tell you.

If I were her, I would understandably not want to settle for less. Celtic, what I am trying to tell you is that what she wants is very possible. I think some folks on this thread have never experienced this and probably don't believe it themselves. But those of us who have gone through this program do believe it, because we know it is true.

I don't have the slightest idea what "old peoples love" means. Does that mean old people have LESS of a romance than younger people? Why would that be? It sure does not have to be. And why would anyone want to settle for that? Just because they are OLD? Dr Harley and Mrs Harley are grandparents and senior citizens and they talk often of their passionate, romantic marriage on the radio show. It is very achievable. I have never heard them talk about this "old people's love."


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Romantic Love: Is it a Realistic Goal for Marriage Therapy?

Jennifer H. Chalmers, Ph.D.


I recently attended a training conference for psychotherapists that showcased several experts in the field of marital therapy. The purpose of the conference was to educate therapists.

Yet when it came to determining the goal of marital therapy, NO ONE suggested that restoring the feeling of love should be the goal. In fact a prominent scholar and expert on "sex, love, and relationships" boldly said, "Anyone who says that romantic love can last is giving you B*** S***." He probably lost the feeling of love in his own marriage and didn't know how to restore it. But then he had the audacity to claim that no one knew how to do it.

This "expert" was not alone with his viewpoint. The topic of creating and sustaining the feeling of love was never discussed in any of the marriage-related workshops that I attended. They talked about conflict resolution, improving communication and listening skills, understanding each other's themes and beliefs, understanding our choices in how we behave, and changing our irrational beliefs about the other. But these issues were not intended to help couples create the feeling of love. According to these scholars, that goal was impossible to achieve.

Several times I felt like shouting out to the thousands of fellow therapists, "The feeling of love is not only something that can be created, but it's essential to every marriage. I help couples restore their love for each other every week. And so do countless others who use Dr. Harley's 'Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation' when counseling."
continued here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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HHH,

"Don't wait for explanations or apologies. They may never happen. They aren't really needed."

Totally disagree! In any relationship with God or another person, the person who harms/hurts another needs to 'own' his/her deed, feel remorse, apologize, and be determined to amend their behavior and values. Period! What you are suggesting is common today - i.e., no accountability. There is not such thing as a 'fog' too thick to prevent the offender from doing this IF he/she values the relationship, or even values other people in general. MB is a tool, a valuable tool, but it does not override the basic life principle of accountability to the one you offended.

I do not know what your background is in your marital relationship. You may have turned her totally off, and that in itself would be sad. Not saying that you did, but even that kind of bad relationship would not justify a wife from hurting her husband with betrayal.

HHH, from what you are saying, I then have permission to withdraw $10,000 from our joint account, go to Vegas for a week and waste it, return home and not expect to offer remorse of even a simple apology. Hey well get real please. For most normal people who DO have long-term marriages, the ones you don't even hear about, that behavior would get me in the house long enough to pack a few things!

Ack, your future peace of mind and confidence IS predicated on your W showing remorse and full dedication to you and your marriage. Most people would not settle for less.

Good luck,

Tom

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How come this romantic love is so intense in the A. It is not possible that A partners follow MB!!!
How come some A last so long when you would think the very base on which they are built would destroy them in no time?
It is really a mistery how fast two people can fall in love and yet deep down know that what they are doing hurt so many people. How can you have passion and all that when you left your wife with kids and frolic with someone who is obviously a loser?
blessing


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Originally Posted by Tom2010
HHH,

"Don't wait for explanations or apologies. They may never happen. They aren't really needed."

Totally disagree! In any relationship with God or another person, the person who harms/hurts another needs to 'own' his/her deed, feel remorse, apologize, and be determined to amend their behavior and values. Period! What you are suggesting is common today - i.e., no accountability. There is not such thing as a 'fog' too thick to prevent the offender from doing this IF he/she values the relationship, or even values other people in general. MB is a tool, a valuable tool, but it does not override the basic life principle of accountability to the one you offended.

I do not know what your background is in your marital relationship. You may have turned her totally off, and that in itself would be sad. Not saying that you did, but even that kind of bad relationship would not justify a wife from hurting her husband with betrayal.

HHH, from what you are saying, I then have permission to withdraw $10,000 from our joint account, go to Vegas for a week and waste it, return home and not expect to offer remorse of even a simple apology. Hey well get real please. For most normal people who DO have long-term marriages, the ones you don't even hear about, that behavior would get me in the house long enough to pack a few things!

Ack, your future peace of mind and confidence IS predicated on your W showing remorse and full dedication to you and your marriage. Most people would not settle for less.

Good luck,

Tom

Oh, you got me over the pot on that one. However, I am following MB advice with that post.

I would have been out the door if my FWW would not have been remorseful.

However, I believe there is a reason that there is not an emphasis on remorse and/or apology. Because it is not necessary to begin the recovery process. Remorse and apology have their emphasis removed to aid the BS refrain from demanding remorse or apology, which would be a LB.

It took 5 months and the full truth before I saw remorse. Had I been demanding remorse that entire time, had I been saying I wouldn't move forward without a sincere apology from moment one, we would be done.

And again, I am simply restating the principals stated by this board. For instance; I was REALLY hung up on forgiveness. I wanted to do it, but couldn't feel it, and really didn't know exactly what that meant. Knowing that she has to earn it, rather than me giving it, took that weight off of my shoulders so that I could work on avoiding LBs and meeting her ENs.

I was hung up on trust; relearning that I shouldn't have trusted her to not stray to begin with, because we are all capable of having an A, took that weight off of my shoulders.

So, while MB may not be the catch-all for all beliefs and creeds, it works rather well - and of course has the record to prove that it does.

Apples to oranges - it's all fruit.


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Question regarding Policy of Joint Agreement:

Right now, there is virtually no activity outside of cooking my wife enthusiastically will agree to. She has told me she prefers to spend time with a couple of girl friends, one of whom had a 3 month emotional affair last year. They have lives of their own though! Bottom line-what do you do when the WW is not enthusiastic about anything.

I am taking on two big projects today that mean a lot to her... hoping the tide begins to turn soon.

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Originally Posted by Celtic
Question regarding Policy of Joint Agreement:

Right now, there is virtually no activity outside of cooking my wife enthusiastically will agree to. She has told me she prefers to spend time with a couple of girl friends, one of whom had a 3 month emotional affair last year. They have lives of their own though! Bottom line-what do you do when the WW is not enthusiastic about anything.

I am taking on two big projects today that mean a lot to her... hoping the tide begins to turn soon.

I would suggest counseling with Steve Harley. Let him sell her on the prospect of falling in love with you. Your biggest hurdle will be to motivate her to TRY. Of course she won't be enthusiastic about spending any time with you initially. Steve Harley can sometimes be very effective in this regard. If you are interested in doing this, click on the counseling center button above and make an appt with Steve.


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Originally Posted by atena
How come this romantic love is so intense in the A. It is not possible that A partners follow MB!!!

Oh yes they do follow Marriage Builders principles. Affairs begin when people start meeting each others most important emotional needs.

Quote
How come some A last so long when you would think the very base on which they are built would destroy them in no time?

Affairs don't last long as a rule. 95% of them die within 2 years. Most are not sustainable.



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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by atena
How come this romantic love is so intense in the A. It is not possible that A partners follow MB!!!

Oh yes they do follow Marriage Builders principles. Affairs begin when people start meeting each others most important emotional needs.

And furthermore, due to the "ideal" bubble of fantasy the affair exists in - no bills, kids, no real life issues other than meeting each others needs - they rarely unleash LBs on each other.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by atena
How come some A last so long when you would think the very base on which they are built would destroy them in no time?

Affairs don't last long as a rule. 95% of them die within 2 years. Most are not sustainable.

...once the conditions of real life sink in.

The same dysfunction that lead to vulnerability to an affair continues to exist in the WS.


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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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