Yes, this is normal for me- but I see where you are coming from about appearing weak and needy, and that is something that I need to guard against. I don't plan to bombard her with things every day. Also, I have made it known to her in no uncertain terms that I will no longer tolerate the A. She has a decision to make, which is to break off the A and agree to NC/EPM, or to leave our home. That is not negotiable.

Mark,

Do you know who OM is? Do you know where he works? Do you know where he lives? do you know anything about his family?

If so, then you might consider explaining to him how you feel about him and what he is doing to your family. You cannot vent to your W right now, but you sure can to him. Think about it.

If I were you I would cease all contact with W, no more flowers, cards, etc. If she calls you are in plan A, otherwise step back. You need to focus on your children, they have been badly harmed by all of this and you need to discuss with them what they think and how they feel.

They need a parent that won't lie to them and that will listen to them. I believe I recall that you exposed to the children, if so do talk with them, do spend time with them, enjoy one another, take them out to eat. In short, soak up the time with them. You mentioned a D18, then that means she is very likely out of the house to college next year or off to a job, now is the time to be with her.

Focus on them, don't focus on what you cannot control (your W's decisions and how they have hurt you). You focus on those kids and make sure they know their Dad loves them and will listen to them. I am certain even if they don't know everything, they know things are bad in your household. Explain to them your feelings for wanting to try and rebuild, your feelings about marriage and the vows. This is an educational moment and an OPPORTUNITY to grow closer to your children, make the most of it.

In short, quit worrying about W, it really is in her hands not yours. You will make the correct decision when the time comes so don't worry about it. Instead focus on your children, their needs, their worries, and what makes them happy.

God Bless,

JL

Yes, I know pretty much everything about OM. He has very few redeeming qualities- divorced, felon, big drinker/partier, no stable employment, financially destitute, etc. I saw someone on this board say that WS always "affair down", and that is definitely the case here. I have spoken with him 3-4 times. A couple of nasty confrontations (one in person, one by phone), and then a couple of rational, calm phone conversations. In typical OM fashion, he is sorry for the damage that is being caused, but he is "in love", blah, blah, blah. He is divorced from his wife of 18 yrs for guess what- he had an A while married to her and she dumped him. He is a jack-leg carpenter, so no way to apply pressure there. WS has actually contacted me a couple of times today, so I do feel that I am still in Plan A. I have actually been doing exactly what you suggest relative to the children. I spent about 2 hrs last night talking to the older 2 (18 & 15). They are fully aware of everything. The younger 2 (11 & 10) know there are problems, but are not aware of the A, and I just can't bring myself to talk with them about it. I do plan to spend whatever time WS is away to take an emotional/mental break from all of this, and focus on the kids. Thanks for the advice.

Your children NEED to be told.

What have they been told about this separation?

Older children know that she is making her choice about whether to stay or go. Younger children just know that she is visiting her sister for a week or two.

Do you condone lying to your children?

No, but I don't believe that the younger two need to hear about their mother's adultery at this point. I will have an age-appropriate discussion with them when I feel the time is right. This may not be right, but that is what I have decided to do.

@mark -

You are your kids parent. You get to decide what is appropriate for them. Nobody else can tell you different. They can suggest and give you their opinions, but that is all.

I forget who initiated this Trip Of Decision (TOD). If it was POJA then I think it is Plan A Carrot. If it was her decision (IB) then it could be looked at as breaking NC, I would treat it Plan A Stick.

Oh I know I can't MAKE Mark tell his children. I do believe that he is LYING to them. He is not doing them any favours by lying and is actually doing a disservice to them and to HIS WW.

Children should be told about the affair so they know it is WRONG.

Dr HArley advocates telling children as young as FOUR.

Your older children know. And did you tell them NOT to tell the younger ones?

What if your WW decides she is NEVER coming back? What are you going to do then?


ETA: Clark, how is this an affairage? Did she MARRY this OM? That is what we call an affairage here.

Mark,

I certainly endorse the "age appropriate" telling of them. I would like you to consider this. If your W were to come back and say "Mark I have decided it is over, I want a divorce." Your two younger ones will be blindsided by this. They at least need to know your W is trying to decide if she wants to remain married to you or not. That way if the decision is negative, they will have their emotional feet under them.

Please think about this. Kids are very smart, they just don't operate with as much data as adults do. In this case your children all of them need data, they can figure things out from there.

God Bless,

JL

Just tell the younger kids that mom has a BF and married women don't have BF's and go on dates with them.

These two need to find out from you not years later from their siblings or who knows who. Actually it will be helpful that you have your older kids there to be able to talk with the younger ones after you tell the younger ones.

Kids.

If they don't have the data to supply a rreason, they tend to assume THEY are the reason. This is fro/ my personal experience not so long ago as a kid.

TheRoad siad it pretty good. Mommy has a boyfriend and it is wrong for mommy's to have boyfriends while they are married too daddies.

From this experiences, your kids are learning by observation about:

The importance of honesty
The sanctity of marriage
Personal choice, consequences and responsibility
Handling stress
Self control
Personal strength
Moral behavior
Kindness and compassion

And on and on. Right now, they are watching you, because mommy is gone. They don't know why she is gone though you can bet they know mommy and daddy are upset, so they could very likely be assuming its because of them.

You are also demonstrating all the above and tons more by your actions.

Are your actions reflecting your personal values? Are they the actions you want them to take when they grow up should they find themselves in a similar situation? Are you demonstrating the importance of honesty?

If you are, good on, keep going, best of luck. If not, that's fine, think on it and modify your behavior.

Learn and grow.

Best wishes man, have fun with the kiddos, they can be awesome comfort through this. Mine was.

Okay, I need some help. Found out WS was in contact with OM during her trip so sister's in PA (email/text, no phone or in person). Confronted her, she admitted it, I told her she must decide before she returns- either she will break off all contact with OM and commit to NC/EM/etc., or I don't want her to come back into our home. Told her I was meeting with attny to better understand my rights, and that I would do everything within my power to prevent her from taking the children. For the first time, I sensed genuine remorse. She said she knows she has a serious problem, is ruining her life, mine and the kids, and must stop. That was yesterday morning. Last night, had a long, hearfelt conversation with her, in which she committed again, but said she is not sure she wants to come home. She feels that she needs to work on herself, and that can best be accomplished by living apart. I know this is wayward-speak, but she agreed to my terms of full custody of kids, and is allowing me to negotiate other terms of separation, without getting herself an attny. This morning, she called to let me know she had finally and officially broken it off w/ OM (this is the third time, by the way), she is coming back to town Thursday, but has found an apartment. The apartment is right in our neighborhood, which is good because of the kids, but it doesn't make much sense if she is planning to continue with OM. ??? So, I guess I am on to Plan B. I have had this promise of NC before, but somehow this one seems different, more serious and sincere. She has also agreed to start the repentance process (LDS posters will know what I am talking about here). If she does that, it will be a major sign to me that she is serious about stopping the A, as I can't imagine anyone intentionally beginning that process if they weren't serious about stopping the transgression. (That's not to say they couldn't relapse, but I don't think they would enter into it with the intention of a relapse.) Any thoughts, ideas or advice on how I should proceed?

Mark,

One thing hit me in what you said: She found an apartment in only one day from long distance??? Color me a bit skeptical, but this sounds like a plan in place for awhile.

I do think you MUST talk to all of your children about this change in their lives and what it means.

I would also point out that her saying that she will start the repentance process doesn't mean she has started it or will actually start it. But one can always hope.

I do worry as I am sure others will also about her "working on herself." This is typical WS "fog speak" because if they could "work on themselves" they probably wouldn't have done what they did. I would suggest you enquire as to what her plan for "working on herself" is. Does she have a counselor? Does she have a plan to keep OM from contacting her? Does she have a plan to resist the temptation of contacting him? Who is going to spiritually guide her on her quest to "work on herself"? I think you get where I am going.

Without a plan, her working on herself will be like my diet plans...I plan to lose 20 lbs. No deadline, no start date, no diet in mind, no plan for exercise. So have effective do you think my "plan" has been over the last 10 years? No so good, are you surprised?

Hang in there, things are changing and change can lead to opportunity as well as the end.

God Bless,

JL

I have known that she was looking for somewhere to live for some time. She has been waffling on separation for a long time, and has made no bones about it. So, the apt. is no surprise, I have been expecting it. My belief is that the pressure of exposure has lead her to finally become serious, for the first time, about NC. I am not thrilled about the separation, but something has to change, one way or the other. If she submits to the LDS repentance process, it will be a very specific process, with very specific requirements, and will be closely monitored. By no means will it be relapse-proof, but the fact that she would even begin the process speaks volumes to me about her level of commitment. In the past, she has been extremely reluctant to even talk about it. I don't know, I just sense a level of remorse that I never have before. Believe me, I am extremely concerned about the opportunities for renewed/increased contact with OM, but in the final analysis, she is going to have to make some sort of decision, and until she does, I don't want her in my home anyway. Does that make sense?

Yes it does Mark.

JL

Okay, let's look at the

WS was in contact with OM during her trip so sister's in PA
I was afraid of this.

she committed again, but said she is not sure she wants to come home.
Then she's not committed. She's considering her options, that's all.

she called to let me know she had finally and officially broken it off w/ OM (this is the third time, by the way), 3 times, so this time is no different and means nothing. She is attempting to appease you.

The apartment is right in our neighborhood, which is good because of the kids, but it doesn't make much sense if she is planning to continue with OM It makes perfect sense. She wants unfettered access to her children and any EN's you give her, and she wants the space to continue her A with OM, without your interference. She couldn't very well do that if she came home. She's cake-eating.

I would go into a firm Plan B. Set up an IM and get your Plan B letter together. Pack up her things and tell her she needs to come and get them. Leave them outside for her so she can't see or talk to you. Have a written agreement on her visitation schedule with the kids.

In other words, start forcing her to see the physical result of a life without you and with limited access to her children.

I agree, Plan B immediately.

Just to add my input...

This is a perfect time to Plan B. Be a courteous, gentle husband, help her move her things, avoid relationship talk, give her a little help getting started, show her what an amazing man you are...

And THEN cut her off. Deliver the Plan B letter via your intermediaries, do not see or speak to her unless it is for her to talk about how she plans to never see or speak to OM again, enforce extraordinary precautions to prevent this from happening again, and commit to a marital recovery program together.

I'm with DNM, with one big stressing point: DO NOT FINANCE YOUR WW'S A. Close checking accounts in both of your names. Close credit card accounts, etc. She may have been living on Fantasy Island, thinking the money flow would continue while she continues her affair. LET HER KNOW THAT THIS WILL NOT BE HAPPENING. CLOSE THOSE ACCOUNTS. She's now on her own financially.