About two months ago, I discovered that my wife was carrying on an emotional affair with a former boyfriend from high school. At that point, there had been very limited physical contact, and she agreed to stop all contact with him. Unfortunately, she has been unable to refrain from contact for longer that about 10 days. We have been happily married for 22 years, and have four children, ages 10-18. She says that she has been unhappy for a number of years, and that she was afraid to tell me. After the initial discovery, we sat down and made a list of things that we would like from each other. My list consisted mainly of conditions like no contact, openness/honesty, etc. She came up with a list of things that were making her unhappy. I have been attempting to change all of the things that she has asked. She convinced me to leave my home for a trial separation to work on the marriage. I stupidly agreed because I though that whe would leave and I didn't want to disrupt my children's lives any more than necessary. I let her know that if I discovered that she had resumed contact, I would be coming back home immediately. She used this time (which was only one week), to plan and carry out a sexual liaison, so now the affair is full-blown. I confronted her, and she made a full confession. She seemed to be very remorseful, but honestly at this point, I have heard so many lies that I can't tell. We are now living together, attempting to work on our marriage. I am still monitoring her, and every indication is that she has broken it off. She refuses to have any physical contact with me. Any discussion of working on the marriage leads to a heated argument. She continues to insist on spending her leisure time with a divorced girlfriend, and while my checking up on her has not turned up any new evidence of contact, I am not sure. I am extremely suspicious and distrustful, but I still love my wife and want to make this work. I am trying to work on plan A. What should I do now?

Hi Mark. Welcome to Marriage Builders.

Who is the OM? Is he married and if so, does his wife know. Has her affair been exposed to your children and other family members?


What are your snooping techniques?

OM is an old high school boyfriend (last person she dated before me). He is divorced- was married for 18 years and wife left him because of his adultery. Affair has not been exposed to the children, although the two teenagers suspect it. My parents and her parents have been told. She insists that she has broken it off, and we are now "working on the marriage", because she has been unhappy for a long time, which according to her is totally unrelated to the affair (right). She has agreed to give it 30 days and then "re-evaluate". I have decided to try to live as normally as possible during this time, and stop discussing the affair and the problems. We are getting along well, but there is very little physical affection. She has let me know in no uncertain terms that sex is out of the question. I'm just not sure if I am doing the right thing.

Im sorry but that affair is not over by a long shot. IN fact Id bet a large amount that it is on full fire. She in UNABLE to give your marriage full attention while she is in the affair. She is in the FOG and she can NOT think right. EXPOSURE is the key and Plan A. Read the link below to find out about both. Begin snooping and get your evidence and move forward with saving your marriage. You are in a fight take it seriously she is NOT going to be happy with you but at this point she is doing what the pros here call cake eating. Her needs are being meet by you her husband and the OM. STOP this or your marriage is sure to continue on the road it is on.

This is a newbie thread with a load of links for the most important readings.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2370240#Post2370240

Exposure is the first thing you should do. ALL of the most influential people in your WW's circle and OM's circle should be informed. This INCLUDES your children. My children have been told about their father's affair and they were 6 and 9 when I told them.

Affairs THRIVE on secrecy. Exposure is key.

This is part of what DrH calls Plan A. You need to tell your WW that you have rethought her plan for 30 days and you have decided that you don't want a deadline for your marriage, afterall, your vows said, "Till death due us part," not, "For 30 days, until I can figure out what I want." All this means is that she is still in an active affair.

Even though you say that OM's W left due to his affairs, I would still add her to the list, along with his parents, friends, and family. You should copy his friend list off of FB.

So, your mission ATM is to continue snooping(keylogger, GPS, VAR, etc) and expose. Good luck

Don't stop her cake-eating yet. Meet her EN's the best you can, even knowing that OM is meeting some of them, too.

Build up good memories that will come back and haunt her once you go to Plan B.

Cake-eating itself is not the enemy. It's good as long as you firmly cut off every last crumb of the supply when the right time comes.

I'm sorry you are here. Consider her refusal of intimacy to be a good thing. Given OM is apparently active sexually with about anything that wears a skirt, she needs to be tested for STD's and you do as well. I know, I know, she hadn't had any relations with him until you separated. Cheaters lie and they lie almost continuously.

Get yourself tested, and insist that she does for her own health if nothing else.

She is still in withdrawal, but exposure needs to take place and you definitely need to tell your children in age appropriate manner. You are currently torturing them and they don't deserver or need it. The KNOW something is wrong. THEY fear that their family will break up but the real fear lies in what they don't know and imagine. Give them the truth, let them know what is happening, that way they can cope with the situation as it evolves.

Exposure should be complete. Plan a should be applied for a significant time, and definitely work on any love busters you have been doing.

Hang in there this is a long process and you have just started it.

God Bless,

JL

I am definitely still in snoop mode, and so far, all of my snooping has turned up nothing. The real change in WW's attitude came when she called OM to finally break it off, which she disclosed to me voluntarily, and call only lasted 16 mins., which is a record for them (couldn't convince her to do the letter). He basically told her to "fish or cut bait", that he was tired of waiting for her to decide between me and him. Between that and the fact that she has found out that he has disclosed the affair to some of their old high school friends, her fantasy bubble of him seems to have been burst. When his name comes up now, she no longer gets emotional, she gets angry. She has been steadily more affectionate towards me in the past week, and although she still will only admit to her day being "okay" (never good), I have not seen her in the depths of despair that she was regularly in for the first couple of weeks of no contact. I have decided to continue Plan A for the next month, and see what she comes up with on her "re-evaluation date". If she decides to leave, I am going to do a nuclear exposure. I am still monitoring her activities. I know that it is possible (maybe even likely) that she is still carrying on, even though I haven't found a single shred of evidence. Am I just paranoid to be so distrustful when everything seems to be checking out? Or am I stupid to give her this month? She is still in the fog, but it seems to be lifting somewhat. I just don't know what to do. My older children are pretty much aware of everything (not every detail, but they know there is another man). I just can't bring myself to discuss this with my younger children yet, not if there is any possibility that we can work this out. That is probably not smart, but I am a little weak where the children are concerned.

Also, my wife and I are LDS (Mormon). If there are others of our faith on this board, I would be interested in hearing from you, as there are some unique circumstances surrounding our beliefs about marriage, and some of the church disciplinary consequences in cases of adultery. So, if anyone out there is LDS, please feel free to speak up.

Mark - Exposure isn't a bargaining chip or a weapon, it is a tool to end the affair. So she has broken off contact for now - Exposure ENSURES the contact stays broken. It provides accountability.

Your children ABSOLUTELY must know. All of them must be told by YOU in age appropriate language. Whether you work this out or not. They sense that there is something wrong in their world, left to their own devices they will construct their own reason for why that is. That reason could be damaging to them.

The TRUTH is important. They have a right to know what is going on in their lives.

This is a VALUABLE teaching experience for them: on the difference between right and wrong, on the importance of the family and standing up for what is right, on the power of repentance and forgiveness.

Your wife seems resistant to real recovery. That's pretty typical. That's why it falls to you to lead. She must reinforce her NC phone call with a letter. This is for YOU. So the call was short - but you have no clue what it contained. She writes the letter, and YOU ensure it gets to OM.

You are allowing her to have all the power here. SHE sets the 're-evaluation' date? Really.

It isn't for her to decide to stay with you, but for YOU to decide she is worth staying with.

And you are right to keep snooping. It isn't paranoid, it is smart and safe.

Finally, I am LDS. There are others here too. DoormatNoMore in Recovery's wife is LDS and she is the FWW there involved in an EA. I believe Writer1 is as well, and she is a FWW as well. I'm pretty sure Sapphire Returns and WheelsSpinning are LDS as well, Sapph is a FWW involved in a couple EAs. You may try searching for their stories.

Your wife should be counselling with her Bishop and Stake President. If you were married in the temple she has SEVERELY violated her Temple Covenants and should be working through the repentance process. If she is resistant to that, then that isn't a good sign.

Keep Snooping, Do a STELLAR Plan A, Expose to your children, Request that your wife confess to her Bishop.

Find some fun things to do together! Laughter is a key!

Plan A! Plan A! Plan A!

Snoop, Snoop, Snoop!

Even if things fall apart at the month re-evaluate date..... Continue to Plan A.

What methods of snooping are you using?

Do you have a gps tracker on her vehicle?
A keylogger on her computor?
Access to cell phone accounts?
Private Investigator?

I highly recommend all the above!

Thank you for your reply. She is petrified of beginning the repentance process. She has asked for and received release from all church callings, and has stopped partaking of the sacrament, but so far is avoiding coming forward to the bishop/stake president. She has promised she will do that "when she is ready", but is insistent that she be the one to initiate this. I have agreed to that, but at the end of this month, not only we she be re-evaluating, but so will I. Full exposure is going to happen by then, one way or another.

Do you have the book, "Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Willard Harley, Jr.?

If not, please order it & overnight it for yourself.

She isn't ready because she isn't repentant. If she were repentant she'd be in the office doing what needs to be done. Yes SHE must initiate it, it is very telling that she isn't doing it. VERY telling.

It isn't for her to determine to stop taking the sacrament indefinitely. If she is unworthy, she needs to go to work to become worthy.

When I returned to the church after 4 years of drinking and partying I went to the Bishop and humbly began the process. It was a relief and something I was eager to do. Yes there was fear, but it paled beside the desire to better my life. There was an acceptance I'd done wrong and a willingness to do what it took to become better.

She doesn't want to take responsibility for what she has done. I would make beginning the repentance process a requirement for your continued existence in this marriage.

I highly recommend that YOU are present anytime she decides to confess and make ammends for her adultery. Having once been a wayward myself, I know the spin that can roll off the lips of a half-hearted repentance. Your presence is necessary on all of these occasions!

The MB process can work well if you follow Dr. Harley's path that's laid out in his book Surviving An Affair.

I agree with TST.

Get Surviving an Affair. Read it ASAP.

You are right, in fact, she has even said that she doesn't feel "remorseful enough". We have been blessed with the friendship of a couple in our ward who have been through this experience (unbeknown to us). The WW in that situation has told me that it will be a big sign when she finally takes the step of confession. She is definitely addicted to OM, and it has been quite painful watching her go through withdrawal. She seems to be through the very worst of it, and I just know in my heart that if she would unburden herself and begin the process of repentance, that would help her so much. I just don't feel that I am in a position to force that.

You can't force. But you are not obligated to stay with an unrepentant adulteress. YOU have power here mark, not her. She has to convince you to stay, that she is safe and worth rebuilding what she has destroyed. If she won't repent, then, for your own wellbeing and that of your children, she will need to be removed from the family.

But we're putting the cart before the horse here. Plan A first.

Dr. Harley has apparently counseled with a lot of LDS members. On a radio show a couple of months ago he was talking about religious beliefs about marriage that many of his clients held, and though the name of the church was not mentioned, it was obviously LDS belief about temple marriage he was talking about. He and his wife were very respectful about LDS beliefs.

And as Vibrissa notes, there are a lot of LDS and former LDS on this forum. So you are in the right place.

Hi Markc,
I am also LDS and my H had an affair with an old high school girlfriend that he reconnected with at a reunion. That affair resulted in an OC. What a long recovery process it has been!

My H also went through the disciplinary council process. He wasn't ready to talk to the bishop right away (what wayward is?), but I was and I needed his help, so I made an appointment to at least get it out in the open. He went, too, and although wasn't very repentant at the time, was sorry he had hurt everyone.

It took nearly 5 months to get things under control and determine whether he even was going to stay with our family and stay in the church. By the time a council was set up (summer schedules) his demeaner and countenance had dramatically changed. He had hit bottom and was truly repentant. Believe it or not, he was just disfellowshiped. The criteria for the disciplinary action, his attitude and the feelings of the council were the deciding factor. The stake president told me that was not what he expected the outcome to be, but that they were guided to this decision. Although, it was outlined that even the slightest slip up on his part would result in immediate excommunication without the formal council again.

The whole thing was draining (I had to speak) but they handled it with complete compassion and love for my husband and a desire to see him fully repent and recover his status in the church. It was an awesome experience to see how it can truly work to the benefit of the person who has broken their convenants.

Your wife in understandably scared and probably not ready for all that yet. If my H had done it any sooner, I am sure he would have been excommunicated and may never have made it back. He was not mentally right yet! He still had a defensive mindset and not truly committed to me and our family yet. I believe all the set backs in scheduling were a blessing that allowed him time to see what he really wanted and where his heart was.

But this length of time doesn't usually happen. Maybe your wife wasn't as invested in the OM as my H was with the OW/OC and it won't take as long for her to become humble and own what she has done. My H was also particularly proud and successful. I think this contributed to him getting in so deep in the first place.

We are more than 6 years out from D-day and our relationship is far, far better than it ever was before. But it took nearly 5 years for me to feel normal again. So, don't plan on a quick fix. It has taken lots of work on both of our parts, moving to another state, and loads of therapy to help us keep on course to recover the marriage. There were many times along the way that I didn't think I could continue. He did a huge amount of the heavy lifting in recovery after the initial 6-7 months, where I had to whether him pining for another woman and the choices he had made.

Your wife will need to be on board with helping you to heal, as well.

The church has loads of support for the WS and there are many guidelines and meetings for them. As a BS, I felt a bit neglected and alone. You may have to find other support than church leaders. I also found that members don't generally know what to say (just like everyone else) and they avoided me. Of course, it was highly talked about, being so juicy of a topic. But not with me. And no one really knows what it would be like to have it happen until it does, so there were erroneous judgements about the adequacy of the BS as a spouse.

I hope you find someone that you can trust to be your support. And this board! I didn't find this until I was already 6 months into the mess. It would have been a huge comfort and give me some direction about what to do.

Sorry! I didn't mean for this to be so long!!

Take care. Be patient, but not a doormat. You may be afraid to call the shots on what you want for fear of driving her away. But this is a mistake (I made it for a long time). Don't let her be in charge of decisions because she is not thinking clearly yet and not your best interest (or family). Set your boundaries of what you will and will not accept.

I'm so sorry this has happened to you!

I�m not LDS but I�m very familiar with LDS since my roommate was LDS.

I would say you�re in luck in the sense that you will have support from your peers to saving your marriage and in pressuring her to end the affair.

It seems like the affair is over, but the odds are high that she�s communicating with him somehow.

What are your snooping methods? I recommend putting a keylogger on your computer so you can see what she writes to others and putting a VAR in her car to record any conversations she may be having with OM.

If the affair is ongoing, then expose it in full, follow Plan A.

But one of the biggest things you need to do is stop agreeing to the concept that there is a 30 day trial period. Let it be clear to her that divorce will not be easy or nice and that you aren�t going to simply roll over. She�s telling herself 30 days so she can later say, �I tried.�

I really appreciate your reply. I am a former member of the bishopric, and currently serve on the high council, so I am intimately familiar with the church disciplinary process. My experiences have been just as you described- I can't imagine a more loving and compassionate situation. Unfortunately, my wife is convinced of the worst-case scenario. One of the reasons I am not pushing this is that I know that her level of humility, contrition and remorse will largely determine how this process goes for her. We are very fortunate that we have some close friends in our ward who have come forward to support us and shared with us that they have been down this same road. Their support and advice has been invaluable. The WS from this couple has told me that one thing my wife needs right now is to feel in control of something, because regardless of her ridiculous words and deeds right now, she is painfully aware that the affair is in control of her, not the other way around. The initiation of repentance is one thing that she can still control. She has also told me that for her, she had to be absolutely, positively certain that she was done with it before she would begin her repentance process. She says that when she makes this decision, it will represent a big turning point. I know that we are in for a long road, but I believe that if she can break this addiction, she will come around. I am now trying to exercise some faith, but it is not easy. Thanks again for your advice, it is much appreciated.

Regretfully, this statement is very accurate and very common and very predictable. Waywards are not very unique, they tend to buy in to the same lies. The Enemy has only so many lies that he can use to wisper into her ears and we've seen em all on these forums. So, yes, it's predictable!

Plan A is still the best offense and defense if you want to attempt to save your marriage. My wife's plan A left a lasting, positive impact on me even when everything had appeared beyond hope.

Saying a prayer for you.

Her primary method of contact has been by cellphone (blackberry). She is no longer calling him or texting him, but she was at one time instant messaging him over the internet via the blackberry. She has removed that program from her phone, and pretty much allows me unfettered access to everything now (cellphone, computer, facebook, all passwords, etc.). We did the lying/deception thing for a couple of months, but that seems to have changed. The only thing that bugs me now is her hanging out with her divorced friend, but each time I have checked up on her, everything has checked out. I may be delusional, but I think no contact is in force. (I will continue to be viglant though, I'm not stupid.) I may have mis-stated the 30 day period. This was actually sort of my idea. In the beginning days of NC, she would get very despondent as she fought withdrawal. I told her that I didn't think she would physiclly survive the ordeal if she had to get up every morning and decide , so perhaps we should set some milepost in the future that no matter what, we would work towards, and then re-evaluate at that point. Of course, I was hoping for a longer period of time, but she came up with 30 days. She insists that it is not a deadline, just a checkpoint, and part of my plan A is that we have agreed not to discuss our problems during this period, and try to live as normally as possible. So far, this is working pretty well. Obviously, things are not normal, but we are getting along well, and she seems to be warming to me a little more each day. I have been very clear with her about the realities of separation and divorce, which is one of the reasons she has agreed to no contact and appears to be trying so hard. Thanks for your advice.

I totally agree- she wants to say she tried. I am going to give Plan A a full try, not just for her, but for me as well. I also need to know that I have given it my best effort. Your prayers are much appreciated. I have probably spent more time praying during this ordeal than during the rest of my life combined. What I have determined is that she has her agency to choose for herself, and I can't take that away from her. I can and will do everything within my power to influence her decisions though, and I just feel that right now, plan A is the right thing.

Well, wonder of wonders, something has happened today that has never happened since this ordeal began. My WS actually initiated contact with me without wanting something (texted me just to say hello), then dropped by my office for a friendly visit (which I said I would faint if that ever happened), and left me with a tender kiss. My Giver thinks this is a great sign. My Taker thinks something is up. Progress, or cover-up?

Have you considered changing her cell number? Has she changed her email address? She needs to make it impossible for him to contact her. If he calls her and she sees his name pop up on her phone, all the hard work of going through withdrawal she's been doing will go out the window.

His number is blocked from her cell phone, via the Verizon website, which only I have access to, and his email is blocked also. I have taken as many extraordinary measures as possible, but with tracfones and various internet means of contact, it is virtually impossible to prevent any contact. She and I have both talked about the fact that if contact occurs, the clock will be re-set. She even said that she fully expects him to try to contact her one more time, even though she was very firm with him. I have talked with her about not answering unknown numbers and having some resolve about what she would do if he somehow got through to her. I guess we will have to cross that bridge if/when we come to it. She does seem fairly determined, but I understand that I can't believe everything she says either.

You need to ENSURE contact doesn't occur, especially as she believes he will attempt to break NC.

He can use a different phone to call her. He can set up a dummy email account.

Change her phone number. Change her email account.

Then he DEFINITELY can't contact her.

It is worth it to avoid this very real risk.

Mark wheels and I are LDS as well, your story is soo similar to ours. I had 2 EA's online. My husband found this site after the second one started (thank goodness he did too!!)

I wanted to say one thing though about her going to see the Bishop, you are right you can't force her to go. After the first EA I told my husband that I will see the bishop when "I'm" ready when in reality my intentions were to never go. A couple reasons...

Embarrassment (we are very much liked in the ward)
Fear of Ex communicated
And fear I would still be in contact of the OM

Well what ended up happening instead of venting to my bishop I was venting with a really good friend of ours that we have known for 3 years (he lives in ausi) well I guess you can find out what happened after that. Wheels was smarter this time around seeing the same old signs, but what he didn't know was that I actually fell in love with him (HUGE MISTAKE)

What woke me up was after Wheels exposed me I woke up. I actually had a burning desire to go see my bishop and start taking those necessary steps and getting my marriage back and the repenting process. I was gone for 2 weeks visiting my sister because I actually left after he exposed, the day I came back I made an appointment to get back on the right track.

I guess because I was very remorseful, told him exactly what {H} and I are doing (I told him all of the MB principles to help our marriage) I wasn't disfellowshiped or ex communicated. Of course I didn't partake of the sacrament for 6 months I was very grateful for everything that our Bishop said and the help of MB.

If you want to hear both wheels and I's story here is wheels thread....

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=159174&Number=2328730#Post2328730

Here is mine

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=160243&Number=2376119#Post2376119

Don't want to make this post too long, but if you are interested on what Wheels did and what happened by all means if it helps read it.

Sorry you are here, but you are at the best place to help your marriage.

P.S any contact from the OM will set back your marriage even if she is listening to songs, looking at pix of him, etc. That is still contact.

Your wife needs to feel remorseful and the only way to help her get to that point is to expose the affair.

I would say CHANGE her numbers and email addresses. I believe that your wife is LONGING for OM to make contact. She is HOPING it will happen. She wants to feel that excitement. Change all means of contact so it CAN NOT happen.

I don't mean to tell you this to harm you, just to inform you.

I agree about your WW want him to make contact. Not wanting it, but wanting it. The idea that she fully expects him to make contact with her makes me think either he has already or there is something else going on. Take control of the phone and change the number. NC rarely happens right after d-day and it is very painful to have it broken.
She should want to do this if it makes you feel more comfortable and able to trust her.
It sounds like it was a good day with WW. I hope that it is a sign of things to come.
But for now, I would not believe what she says unless you can verify. I was stunned how much my H could lie and look me straight in the eye. And I believed him. Partly because I wanted to believe it was true, I suppose. But mostly because I had never known him to be a liar before! So, I still believed him when he said he was not seeing or talking to OW.
That was before I found out about his secret apartment where OW would stay with him. And his secret cell phone so they could stay in contact with each other. And e-mails/pictures of OC. And him giving her a �good-bye� diamond ring���and me the exact same one! And on and on��������������..
Each time I found more lies after d-day was more painful than the last.
Make NC as easy to verify as you can.

/sign the idea of changing her phone number.

OM tried to call my WW 3-4 times one day before we could go in the next day to change her number. Fortunately she didnt answer, her phone still said "First unheard message" so I know she handnt listened to the messages, and teh bill did not show her answering the calls... so I know she didnt talk to him than, but sheeeesh... MUCH TOO CLOSE for comfort.

Change her number, change her email, change her Facebook / social site passwords to things you know so she can go on it only when you are there and log her in.

Check history on internet, or install a keylogger.

NC is not something to leave to chance or worse, up to your WW. It needs to be something you can control and verify.

Scotland was of IMMEASURABLE help to me while I went through D-Day and beyond. Her and the other vets here really have seen all the lies in the Wayward Script. Trust them.


Edit: Oh yeah, also, obviously it is ALWAYS possible for her to make contact if she REALLY wants to. BUT, you CAN give hints that you are watching. Do not tell ALL the ways you are checking up on her, but do little things like ask what websites she visited today, and when she tells you some, ask her about one she didnt tell you, even if its benign, so she knows that you already knew what sites she was on. Same thing if you install a tracking GPS on her car, or at least log the miles on it when you leave for work, and what it is when you get home and compare. Then ask her what she did. If she doesnt mention going anywhere, and theirs miles on the car, ask if she went out. If she says no, thats obviously a lie. You can confront it there, or recognize that maybe she has a new way to break NC, and you should have the car monitored or something. Whatever you choose, the power is in your hands.

It will help her remain committed if in addition to her personal commitment, she knows you are watching, but isnt sure about all the ways you watching.

People dont do things they know are wrong unless they think they can avoid the consequences.

Good luck!

I appreciate your comments. Our stories are quite similar, except in my case the OM is an old boyfriend. We actually discussed the repentance process last night, and she seems to be gathering her courage. I know that this will be a huge step along the road to recovery. I can tell that she is really trying hard. She seems to be over the deepest depression, but she still admits to being somewhat in withdrawal. One issue for her has been intimacy/affection (not talking about sex, just normal hugging, hand holding, etc.). She has made great strides in that area this week, so I am hopeful that as her addiction to OM breaks, her feelings for me will return. By the way, every indication is that OM has gotten back together with his ex-wife. He disclosed to WS when she requested NC that ex-wife was pursuing him again. He also told WS that his wife had been aware of his feelings for WS during their entire 18-yr. marriage. Continuing with Plan A with fingers crossed and much prayer.

Thanks for your advice. I have actually been doing almost all of the things you suggested. I am in "trust but verify" mode, continuing to monitor things. So far, everything has checked out.

Hi Mark,
I am sorry for the happenings that brought you here. Life seems difficult enough without loosing the help and support of one's companion. To have this happen....... sometimes seems impossible to deal with.

However, you sound like you have a good head on your shoulders, and are doing what is needed.

I would also recommend getting Dr Harley's books. I think reading through them will help you make a much better plan for the future.

There are a number of things to keep in mind as you go through the next few months.

1. This won't be fixed in a few weeks or even months. It will take a few years. I recommend you give yourself a time line of at least two years - then look at it again, and do a major plan revision based on where you think you are at that point in time.

This doesn't mean you loose your choices during that time. It means you have a plan that gives you the most chance of success. You will still have the freedom to do what you think is best if she does not respond.

2. Study and learn Dr Harley's Materials.
I have taken the "Marriage and family relations" Sunday School class ........... probably 6 or 7 times. Maybe more. I always agreed with the theory, but I didn't know how to make it work in my marriage.
After we got:
"His needs, her needs"
and
"Love Busters"
I knew what I needed to do, and I knew how to do it, and how to measure it.

These books are wonderful.
You also need "Surviving an Affair."

Don't try to actually "do" everything that you learn all at once, but if you have it in your mind, you can use it during the stages of recovery. The more you know the better your chances.

Besides, it gives you something to concentrate on, so you don't go crazy.

3. Pray

4. Pray

5. Pray.

6. Once your W fully commits...... discuss, implement, and keep the four rules faithfully.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html

7. Change yourself.
Using what you learn from Harley's books, make the changes in yourself that are needed. You have no control over what she does, but you can control what YOU do. If there are things you can do better, do them. Remember that you get to keep the changes that YOU make. No matter what she does, you can be a happier and better person when you come out the other side of this.

8. Your children need to know.
They already know something is wrong. IF you don't tell them what it is, their imagination may supply something worse. They may think it's THEIR fault, because they don't know the truth .

I believe it was Jesus who said that the truth would set us free. Your children deserve freedom.
Be prayerful. If you are in tune, the Lord will help you do this the right way.

9. Don't let any thing knock you off the path. You already know there is opposition in all things. It is by design. It is for our good. However, there is always danger in it.
Keep doing the things that you know will help. Don't do the things that will harm you.

10. Do things with your family - even more than usual. Families in crisis need someone to lead. Be the leader they need. It might be hard, but God is faithful to help us when we ask, and then try as hard as we can to make things work.

Spend more time with your children. Invite your W to come, but if she won't, go do things anyway. It can be as simple as going for a walk together........ and talking while you walk. There is no substitute for time, especially right now.

God bless you, that you may have the best possible outcome from this terrible experience.

SS

Mark - are you and your wife praying together, as a couple, daily? I know that for my husband and I that one, simple act has done so much to bring us together.

Do you have a calling right now? You may want to consider asking for a release so you can focus as much time as possible on your family.

Have you asked for a Priesthood blessing? That could be a great source of comfort and strength to you. Has your wife requested one?

Are you leading your family in prayer and scripture study, in FHE?

How are you doing, personally, on your spiritual journey? Prayer, fasting, scripture study?

You don't have to answer these questions, just evaluate them for yourself. Right now is the time to turn to the Lord and ask him to buoy you up.

Thanks for the advice. I am reading "His Needs, Her Needs" right now. WS has promised to read it next. I plan to order "Surviving Affair". Prayer has become about the most important thing in my life right now. You are so right about the opposition. Even when things are going well and everything checks out, I still find myself with groundless feelings of suspicion and mistrust. WS continues to improve, but someone described this as a roller coaster, and that is an apt description. I'm holding on for dear life, trying to avoid love busters. I am prepared for a very long road.

We do pray together as a couple daily, with few exceptions. That is one thing that we were not doing regularly before, and I really feel that was one of the cracks that allowed the adversary in. WS will not pray vocally during these couple prayers, but she will pray when it is her turn during family prayer with the children. We have also placed renewed emphasis on family scripture study, which WS does participate in. My wife has requested and allowed me to give her two p/h blessings. I currently serve on the stake high council, and have not asked for a release. Stake President is aware of my situation, and is counseling me regularly. He shares my opinion that WS should come forward on her own to confess, so he is holding off on calling her in. I have asked him to use the discretion and discernment that come with his calling to decide how best to proceed.

Thanks for the advice. I am reading "His Needs, Her Needs" right now. WS has promised to read it next. I plan to order "Surviving Affair".

I don't know how much advice you really need - as I said, you seem to be doing well. However, it doesn't hurt to have some outside observer tell you that every once in a while.

I am glad you are reading HNHN, as it I believe it will help. If your W will read it, I think it will help her to "get it." Don't push it though.

Prayer has become about the most important thing in my life right now.

Isn't it interesting how Humble we can become at times? Wouldn't it be great if we were always this humble? God is good to help though, and not leave us to ourselves. I can feel the gratitude in your comment. Prayer does that for me too. What would we do, or could we do without that anchor in our lives? That's how I can say with confidence that you will be OK however this turns out. HE knows you, and he doesn't let us fail if we continue to be humble, and keep trying. Some people say that Jesus was a failure, because he was killed, and never finished what he set out to do. However, his future looks pretty bright to me. If we stick with him, ours will be too.


You are so right about the opposition. Even when things are going well and everything checks out, I still find myself with groundless feelings of suspicion and mistrust. WS continues to improve, but someone described this as a roller coaster, and that is an apt description.

Improvement (in your wife) is good, but you need to tie your feelings to your own inner self, and your relationship to God, not what she does or says. Remember the story of Elisha, and his servant. (2 Kings. 6:16�17.) Remember that you have help, and always will if your heart is right.

You need to know what is going on, and you need to do all in your power to make things work, but God is capable of doing the heavy lifting. Trust him. Trust him no matter what happens ever day, or how it looks, or where it goes.

I'm holding on for dear life, trying to avoid love busters. I am prepared for a very long road.

I smiled when I read this last part. Isn't it the way things are? We have to hold on............ so often. And we endure while we do it.

I think President Hinkley was right, the trick is to learn how to enjoy the ride.

How was your weekend? How are you doing this week?

SS

Thank you so much for your reply- you have said some things that I desperately needed to hear. WS seems to still be doing well, but I have discovered that she has opened a secret bank account, and has a secret PO box. She also still has a gmail account that she told me she had deleted. All of this leads me to believe that she has resumed contact. I have stepped up the snooping, but I don't want to say too much for fear that she may be looking at these boards. (She is the one who found this website, isn't that ironic?) I believe that she has every intention of leaving, and maybe that is what it will take to wake her up. Meanwhile, I am trying to keep things as normal as possible at home, especially for the kids. I am trusting in the Lord that His will be done, whether I like it or not. It is difficult to see how this woman that I married, who was the most compassionate, generous and caring person I have ever known, has turned completely inward. It is painful, but that is where she is right now. As for myself, I am feeling rather numb right now. I don't feel good about the renewed emphasis on snooping, as I feel that it shows a lack of faith (in the Lord, not WS), but I feel that I simply must know what is going on. At times now, I find it difficult to pray, as I'm no longer sure what to pray for. This is a new problem for me, something I have never experienced before.

Mark I am sorry for your pain, now is the time to start preparations for plan B.

Markc,

Pray for the proper resolution to this situation. I don't know what that is and neither do you, but that is what you need. Life takes interesting twists and turns pray for the proper resolution and the insight to understand it.

That would be my suggestion.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks- that is exactly what I have been doing- praying for the Lord's will to be done.

Markc,

I do not view your snooping as not trusting in God or showing a lack of faith. God puts people and things (including technilogical know-how) in our path to help us. He is answering our prayers by giving us what we need to help ourselves.

A friend of mine used to joke that his brother kept praying to win the lottery. Day in and day out he'd pray. Finally, God answered him and said, "John, you need to buy a ticket."

There is a much better story about a shoemaker and Christmas Eve...There once lived in the city of Marseilles an old shoemaker, loved and honored by his neighbors, who affectionately called him �Father Martin�

One Christmas Eve, as he sat alone in his little shop reading of the visit of the Wise Men to the infant Jesus, and of the gifts they brought, he said to himself. �If tomorrow were the first Christmas, and if Jesus were to be born in Marseilles this night, I know what I would give Him!� He rose from his stool and took from a shelf overhead two tiny shoes of softest snow- white leather, with bright silver buckles. �I would give Him those, my finest work.�

Replacing the shoes, he blew out the candle and retired to rest. Hardly had he closed his eyes, it seemed, when he heard a voice call his name��Martin! Martin!�

Intuitively he felt a presence. Then the voice spoke again��Martin, you have wished to see Me. Tomorrow I shall pass by your window. If you see Me, and bid Me enter, I shall be your guest at your table.�

Father Martin did not sleep that night for joy. And before it was yet dawn he rose and swept and tidied up his little shop. He spread fresh sand upon the floor, and wreathed green boughs of fir along the rafters. On the spotless linen-covered table he placed a loaf of white bread, a jar of honey, and a pitcher of milk, and over the fire he hung a pot of tea Then he took up his patient vigil at the window.

Presently he saw an old street-sweeper pass by, blowing upon his thin, gnarled hands to warm them. �Poor fellow, he must be half frozen,� thought Martin. Opening the door he called out to him, �Come in, my friend, and warm, and drink a cup of hot tea.� And the man gratefully accepted the invitation.

An hour passed, and Martin saw a young, miserably clothed women carrying a baby. She paused wearily to rest in the shelter of his doorway. The heart of the old cobbler was touched. Quickly he flung open the door.

�Come in and warm while you rest,� he said to her. �You do not look well,� he remarked.

�I am going to the hospital. I hope they will take me in, and my baby boy,� she explained. �My husband is at sea, and I am ill, without a soul.�

"Poor child!� cried Father Martin. �You must eat something while you are getting warm. No, Then let me give a cup of milk to the little one. Ah! What a bright, pretty fellow he is! Why, you have put no shoes on him!�

�I have no shoes for him,� sighed the mother sadly. �Then he shall have this lovely pair I finished yesterday.� And Father Martin took down from the shelf the soft little snow-white shoes he had admired the evening before. He slipped them on the child�s feet�they fit perfectly. And shortly the poor young mother left, two shoes in her hand and tearful with gratitude.

And Father Martin resumed his post at the window. Hour after hour went by, and although many people passed his window, and many needy souls shared his hospitality, the expected Guest did not appear.

�It was only a dream,� he sighed, with a heavy heart. �I did not believe; but he has not come.�

Suddenly, so it seemed to his weary eyes, the room was flooded with a strange light. And to the cobbler�s astonished vision there appeared before him, one by one, the poor street-sweeper, the sick mother and her child, and all the people whom he had aided during the day. And each smiled at him and said. �Have you not seen me? Did I not sit at your table?� Then they vanished.

Perhaps God is visiting you and answering your prayers by giving you the armor you need to fight his battle - after all, affairs are one of the "Big 10" (and I don't mean college football)!

Regards,

BB

WS seems to still be doing well, but I have discovered that she has opened a secret bank account, and has a secret PO box. She also still has a gmail account that she told me she had deleted. All of this leads me to believe that she has resumed contact.

It sounds like she is making secret plans. People with nothing to hide don't hide anything. I recommend you get a legal counsel, and know your rights and that you protect yourself in advance. This is something that no one wants to do, because it seems to show lack of trust, but it is wise to be ready.


I have stepped up the snooping, but I don't want to say too much for fear that she may be looking at these boards. (She is the one who found this website, isn't that ironic?) I believe that she has every intention of leaving, and maybe that is what it will take to wake her up.

It's like Alma says in Alma 30....... the devil makes things look good up front, but he doesn't support people once he leads them away. As in verse 60: " And thus we see the end of him who perverteth the ways of the Lord; and thus we see that the devil will not support his children at the last day, but doth speedily drag them down to hell."

I hope she figures out what is happening before it's too late for her. Truly these are the last days, where even the elect will be deceived. May these days be shortened for the sake of the righteous.

Meanwhile, I am trying to keep things as normal as possible at home, especially for the kids. I am trusting in the Lord that His will be done, whether I like it or not. It is difficult to see how this woman that I married, who was the most compassionate, generous and caring person I have ever known, has turned completely inward. It is painful, but that is where she is right now.

Continue to pray for her, and do all that you can. It's not always given to us to know every thing that we can and should do. Remember the brother of Jared went to the Lord to get help in lighting the boats, and he was asked basically "What do you want me to do." Don't be afraid of it though, if there had been a better way, God would have done it differently. I suspect you have seen enough in your life to know that God doesn't make mistakes. If you need direct help, you will get it, if not, things will come to you, and you will do them.

As for myself, I am feeling rather numb right now. I don't feel good about the renewed emphasis on snooping, as I feel that it shows a lack of faith (in the Lord, not WS), but I feel that I simply must know what is going on.

God expects us (in most cases) to do all that we can do. He expects us to work with all our might, mind and strength. It's not lack of faith to use the tools God gives us, unless he has specifically told us not to do something - as he did in ancient Israel when he warned the priests not to steady the ark, and they did it anyway and were struck down. I don't think you have been given that warning. Keep doing what you can do.

And, as far as feeling numb............ Good grief, how else could you feel at this point? You know the gravity of the problem, it's with you all day every day, but you see no solution yet. It's hard to cope with normal every day life, let alone with something like THIS. Give your self some credit. I think you have done an amazing job so far - you may fall apart in private, but I think you are doing well in many ways. I salute you.


At times now, I find it difficult to pray, as I'm no longer sure what to pray for. This is a new problem for me, something I have never experienced before.

Pray anyway. (I know you know that.)
Give thanks for the things you DO have. Your children, your job, your testimony.

Ask for:
Guidance
An increased measure of the spirit
Help in knowing what to do from day to day.
Help to avoid mistakes
Help in teaching your children
a strengthened testimony
a Level head when things are the worst
the ability to be happy anyway
Guidance when you pray, that you may pray as God would want you to pray.

Remember, this is God we are talking about. The one who knows you better than you know yourself. The one who led the children of Israel out of Egypt through the sea, and fed them and provided for them for 40 years. He hasn't lost the ability to help us.

I think you will feel his help as you read this. He wants you to know that he is aware of your needs, and will back you up.

Keep coming back and talking when you need to talk. We'll be here.

SS

I see many others posted while I was writing mine. What nice posts.

SS

Mark I believe satan knows who to target to ruin a family, and that is the mothers because we are the nurturers, we are the ones our children come to when they are hurt. With out mommy in the home there is no comfort in the house. He knows the last day's are here, so he is working extra hard! Just keep praying.

Maybe I overlook this but, ...CONFRONT THE OM. Tell that predator to leave your wife alone!!!!

Thank you for this, Brits Brat - it gave me goosebumps.

Thanks to all for your kind advice, it has been very insightful and helpful. I wanted to update you on my current situation. WS and I took a trip to the beach to celebrate her BD and our anniversary. Our two younger children accompanied us. We had a wonderful weekend. WS was very kind and loving the entire weekend. She has been staying at home more, less hanging out with single/divorced friends. She actually went to dinner with a group of married friends from church this past week. My increased snooping has turned up nothing- so far she has been everywhere she said she was going to be. I am still troubled by the bank acct and PO box, but she is giving every indication that she is trying really hard. She insists that NC is being maintained, and I can't prove otherwise. Still unable to be intimate (SF), but I can tell she is trying in that area also. So, what does everyone think? Is progress being made, or is this a smokescreen? Continuing with Plan A for the time being. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Here's what I'm reading in your post:
WW is still going out with friends of hers who are not friends of your M.
WW has a secret PO box and bank acct that you do not have access to, meaning she can still be in contact with OM and you wouldn't know it.
She will not have sexual relations with you.

I'm not sure how much progress you are making. What snooping tools are you using? Have you put a VAR in her car? How about a keylogger on her computer?

Keylogger- yes. Turned up nothing so far. Considering VAR.

Have to agree with maritalbliss. She is still living a secret life. Its weird but no SF can mean that she doesn't want to be unfaithful to the OM. If she has SF with you it will mean that she was/is a cheater.

WS has agreed to a telephone counseling session with Marriage Builders. My question is this: if she is still in contact with OM and is lying about it, is there any value to doing this counseling? Should I do the counseling alone? Anyone who has any experience with this, I would love to have your input.

A VAR may be the best bang for the buck, especially when she's out with 'friends.' How long has the keylogger been on? Do you give her ample opportunity to have "unsupervised" time on the computer? How often does she use it?

Do these married friends know about your wife's affair? If not, they certainly should. They might be a valuable asset in letting you know about anything that is going on when your wife is not with you. Who have you exposed this A to?

The lack of SF could be a sign that she is still in contact with the OM, or it could mean that she is simply still in withdrawal. Withdrawal took quite a while for me, even after my A ended. How long has NC been in place?

I don't have any experience with this, but I think you should keep the counseling appointment. I know MB counseling has been very helpful for others, even when only one spouse is completely on board with the program.

Keylogger has been in place for 2 wks. It is on her personal laptop, which is the only computer she uses. She is home all day alone, and uses the laptop daily. She does have her blackberry though, which never leaves her side. VAR will be picked up tonight.

These married friends are all aware of A, WS actually exposed to each of them. One of them is also a former WS, and she and her H have been a godsend. This group of folks are definitely my greatest allies. A has been exposed to both of our parents, and they are all supportive. Lack of SF feels like lingering withdrawal to me, but can't be sure. NC has been in place for 4 wks, assuming it has been maintained. She admits that she still has strong feelings for OM, but not as strong as before. I believe this is true, because for first 2 wks after NC, she was deeply depressed. She does still seem to want seperation, but is "not ready". Mixed signals all around.

You know, I have actually said that very thing to her- "It feels like you think you are cheating om OM with me." She says that is ridiculous. She says that she feels traumatized by the PA. I might add that both of us were virgins when we wed, and until now, neither of us had ever been with anyone else. She did actually disclose the PA to me voluntarily (I was aware of the EA, but not that it had progressed to full PA.) She also continues to maintain that SF with OM only happened once, but who knows?

WS has agreed to a telephone counseling session with Marriage Builders. My question is this: if she is still in contact with OM and is lying about it, is there any value to doing this counseling? Should I do the counseling alone? Anyone who has any experience with this, I would love to have your input.

I do not have personal experience, but having been on the forum for a few years, I think it has value.

You don't actually know what she is doing. She may not be in contact, but in withdrawal.

There are a great many people who quit smoking, but take a while to get over it. They wish they could smoke, they think about smoking, and they have a hard time NOT smoking, but they get over it in time, and then the day comes when they wonder how they could have ever wanted to smoke. It becomes abhorrent to them.

I think you will be happy if you go with MB coaching. One of the goals is to help your W understand why recovering the marriage is the best option of all the ones that she is thinking about. They will help you understand her a little better too, so that you can help her more.

I think it was Marion G Romney that said (Essentially) that we could make every decision in life correctly if we would learn to follow the the whisperings of the Holy Ghost. Keep praying, and listen closely, and you will know what to do.

SS

Counseling during an affair is a waste of money is the normal saying especially with most counselors.

However a phone call to the Harley's has push many a WS of the fence to go NC with the OP.

Worth a try being you can't verify NC.

Steve has talked many WS' into ending their affair. Be sure and counsel with Steve because he seems to do the best job with waywards. He counsels alone anyway by splitting up the hour. He will encourage her to end her affair and be honest with you, so it would be worthwhile. He will sell her on the prospect of a happy, romantic marriage with you.

Alright MB veterans, I need help. Digital Voice Recorder has confirmed what I suspected- WS is still carrying on in full force with OM. I now have a one side of a 40-min phone conversation between them during which she discloses lots of details about what has been/is going on. What should I do now?

After reading this post I wept. I feel your pain!

I am looking for some kind of digital recorder. any suggestions?
I have most other areas covered.

It�s simple. You have to have nuclear exposure. You tell your family and hers that she�s having an affair and that you need their support to save your marriage. You expose to your kids in an age appropriate way. You expose to OM�s wife if he has one or a girlfriend, if he has one.

I�m willing to bet that 90% of the advice you get will be along the lines of exposure.

Once you�re done with exposure, you confront her.

You don�t need to reveal your source of info. A skilled interrogator doesn�t.

Perhaps there are things in the conversation she had with OM that you can use to hint that you found out through friends or outside sources.

In the end, you don�t need to reveal how you know. Telling her things that were said or that she did is enough to usually get the guilty spill the beans.

One very effective interrogation technique is to trickle the truth. You confront the wayward with a question that you know she will lie to. Once she lies, you present your evidence that contradicts it. It could be something as simple as a statement. Example:

WW, did you see OM on Thursday night?

�No.�

�I happen to know for a fact that you met with him at the sleaze motel at x time. Care to change your response?�

Then you move on to another question you know the answer to.

This gives the impression that they can�t slip any lies by you because you already know everything. They then tend to totally spill the beans.

But the first step, if you hope to save your marriage at all and kill this affair, is to expose.

EXPOSE!!

If you have her voice confirming an affair you need to expose.

Not to beat a dead horse here, but you need to expose like crazy.

To kill an affair, you need to make her realize what it will cost her. Right now, it's costing her NOTHING. She's still got you hanging on the line, she's still got the esteem of her family, the esteem of her friends, her kids ... she's able to have her cake & eat it too.

What exposure does is, it starts to make the cost of an affair apparent to the affairee. When I was in my affair, I had twistedly reconciled myself to being happy with getting some affection/attention/sex/companionship on the side, even though I well knew how wrong it was, because it wasn't costing me anything. However, once the affair was exposed to the other woman's husband, that created the possibility & awareness of major costs for me: My wife was certain to find out eventually; maybe she'd dump me. Maybe the other woman's husband would want to shoot me in the neck like I deserved, too. Even without those extremes, the costs I was suddenly looking at were huge -- maybe losing my home, my children, my job, who knows. So on the morning when the other woman called to let me know that her husband knew about us, I spent about, oh, one nanosecond adding up those costs, and decided to break it off, confess to my wife & throw myself on her mercy. And then that's what I did.

Later, I came to appreciate that without exposure at least in the form of the other woman's husband knowing, I almost certainly would've stayed in the affair at the time. I didn't start getting my head straight until after the light of day fell on that awful situation. Daylight/sunshine, exposure -- is what kills affairs better than anything. The fact that my wife & I then exposed together to some others -- friends of ours -- helped add an extra layer of assurance, making it less likely that I'd resume the affair. The more pairs of eyes, the better.

Don't warn her you're going to do it, just do it. "Shock & awe" is the order of the day. Bring the truth down on everyone whose esteem she values, everyone whose esteem the other man values, to the extent you can track them down. Bring it down quick. The idea is to make the affairees' heads swim, disorient them, smash up their insular little secret world, and bring them face-to-face with the costs of continuing the affair.

And if I may add one thing to your fine response, GO:

Some BS's think they can reason with their spouse and avoid the heavy lifting of exposure. Well, scratch that idea, because you CAN'T. You can't make a wayward see the light of reason. They are ADDICTS. Do NOT say "If you don't stop the A, I'm going to tell everyone." Or similar ultimatums. This will blow up in your face. This gives the waywards time to spin their story: "Oh, WW's husband is a control freak who thinks every guy on the planet is after his wife. He even thinks I'M having an A with her, can you believe that??" or "I am so angry at Mark! Do you know that he thinks OM and I are having an A?? Is that not totally ridiculous? He does this with every male friend I've ever had - he's so controlling!" blah blah blah.

Do not forewarn the affairees!

Do not warn that you are going to expose.

Do not try to bargin that you won't expose if WW ends affair.

All these things will do is let the WW and OM get their stories straight. Time to paint you as a nut case.

Those that tell their side first are usually believed.

So, in case you didn't get it in the last few posts, EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE.

You may not even need to confront your WW. I am CERTAIN that after the people you have exposed to start calling her to say, "WTF?" she will be contacting you.

Get you list of exposure targets together right now and get ready to expose this. You need to do it all at once for it to be MOST effective. Do you have all of OMs info to expose him too? Do it all at the same time.

Keep your source secret as long as possible. You will still want to record her to gather more intel on her plans.

Proved my wife's affair via VAR.
Called everybody she cared about.
Exposure to the OMW led to cessation of the affair on his side immediately, and on my wife's side one week later.

I'm not sure if you've answered this before, but is the OM also LDS? If so, exposing as widely as possible to everyone in his family, ward, etc, is extremely important. The more pressure that is placed on him to end this on his side, the better your chances of ensuring a quick end to this thing.

As everyone else has said, expose, expose, expose. Your kids need to know, especially the teens. I think one of the mistakes my H made was that he never exposed, under the advisement of our Bishop. My H's failure to expose made it much easier for me to carry on the A long after D-day (6 months to be exact). I have no doubt that my A would have ended much sooner if he had done a nuclear exposure to everyone, including our kids.

Expose...
Also, mel said schedule steve because he is better with WWs.

That may be true, mel has never steered me wrong, but due to times available, my WW and I had ours with jennifer. She did a fantastic sell job on the marriage. If steve is better than that, cool, but I think jennifer is "good enough" too so don't feel bad if you can't get steve.

Expose. Nuclear. Don't give details of how you know. You don't owe them proof, they already know what they are doing. Don't warn, when she starts getting calls from people she'll figure it out.

Keep going with Plan A, wage jihad on the affair. Make the marriage and family the only reasonable choice.

Can you go on your phone plan and block incoming calls from OM? If nothing else, shut off her phone, change the number, change the plan to a teen one where she can only call you and 911 or something similar. You are not obligated to support an affair. We got on fine without cell phones for thousands of years. Is she using a vehicle to go to OM? Take the vehicle keys. Fight the affair. Expose to omw, oms family, use the internet. Info is out there, $6 to Intellius got me my WWs OMWs number.

She will rage at you. Be calm, remind her your family is your kids and you, and if she wants to be part of it, she has to come by herself. NC. Your battlecry is you are protecting your family and marriage, that you love them both and she is welcome to be a part of them whenever she is ready. Just repeat that over and over, calmly and sincerely. My WW told me that hugely threw her anger off, when she would say all those terrible things and I would respond only with that.

Keep your appointment with Harleys, try get her there as well. My WW was home 1 day from camping with her AP, not sure she WANTED ab marriage with me, but a condition of her being home was participating in my choice of counseling, and she talked to jennifer.

Nothing I am posting is my idea. Its what vets told me and it works. My thinking never got me anywhere, they did.

Expose. Plan A. War on the affair.

How are you doing today? Thinking of you...

You can get an inexpensive one at Wal-Mart. Very easy to use and will download directly to your computer. Get some velcro tape and you will be all set. Good luck, and sorry you are here.

OM is not LDS. In fact, he is pretty much a dirtbag. No wife (she left him after 18 yrs because of his adultery). He has no incentive to end the affair, so no options there. Working on nuclear exposure right now.

Doing okay. WS is frantic. Not much fun at home, but feel that progress is finally being made, just not sure in which direction. At any rate, something has to change, and it finally is. Should have exposed a long time ago, but didn't have concrete evidence that A was ongoing.

Nuclear exposure is underway. Exposed to both sets of parents, exposed to WS' siblings. Exposed to 18-yo daughter. Going to expose to 15-yo also. Exposed to WS' best friends (married church friends). Divorced friends already know, as they have been aiding/abetting. Also going to talk to LDS Bishop (church leader) tonight. He is aware of EA, but not aware that it had progressed to PA, or that it is ongoing. Wife was Primary President (head of church group for children), but has been released. WS is going to her sister's in PA for a few days to think about her decision. My question is- what do i do now? Do I continue with Plan A for as long as she stays? If she decides to leave, do I continue Plan A, or go directly to Plan B? Need some advice from the veterans.

Go Mark, Go! You can't make WW stay, but you can keep the communication pipeline open. No matter how angry she gets at the exposure, remain calm. Let her know that you love her, your life together, and you are doing whatever it takes to save your M.

PERFECT. Keep it up!

If it's possible to expose to important people on the OM's side -- his parents, his siblings, his children, since he has no wife anymore -- they should be your next target.

You may want to expose to the divorced friends about the extent of the affair, as they may not have been aware of their role in aiding & abetting the affair.

My wife is LDS. I used to be LDS myself and served a mission in California, turbo-Mormon style until about 8 years ago (a story for another time). My exposure also included her bishop.

Don't forget her Visiting Teachers and Relief Society President and/or counselors. They will be important as they are part of the ward correlation committee meetings and aren't under the same confidentiality restrictions as the Bishop and other members of the PEC. Also your wife's former counselors in the Primary Presidency are people who's opinion she valued, or she would not have selected them. Make the affair the big thing EVERYBODY is talking about in church this Sunday.

Exposure works, bud. Keep up the good work. I'm rooting for you.

I served in CA also, although I am a bit older than you are. We may have knocked on some of the same doors. Bay Area for me- how about you? Primary counselors are among the church friends that I referenced earlier, so they are aware.

Transparency Disclosure: I am a Jew by blood, Agnostic by belief, Baptist-raised, former Disciples of Christ board chair. So don't yell at me if this is a dumb question:

What's the deal with the divorced friends? Are they in the Church? (that's what I mean by 'dumb question' - I don't know what the LDS's stand is on divorce and membership. Although I should, since I've been just about every stripe of faith but Wiccan, LOL.)

Can pressure be brought to bear on them for condoning your WW's A? Can you talk to a Church leader and mention their condoning the A? Is that something that would help exposure? I don't mean to get them in trouble in their Church, but it would seem to me that they should be standing firm with the Church in denouncing this A, not condoning it. Their approval of the A weakens everybody and helps no one. KWIM?

@markc5466 California Arcadia 1992-1994 (Northeast LA). Knew my wife for several years beforehand, and married her four months after I got home in September of 1994. Never regretted marrying her for a minute, even when doctrinal & historical concerns forced me to acknowledge my lack of trust in the promises of Christianity. It wasn't religion that brought us together -- although it was a church dance -- it was mutual compatibility and a wonderful dovetailing of interests and sharing.

Glad to hear your exposure targets. You have no idea what rage is until she rages at you over this exposure. Mine raged twice: once when I exposed to a number of people who contacted her, then again several months later when I told her all the names to whom I exposed who had NOT contacted her. So, for your best chance at a later recovery without a second blow-up, tell her you exposed to everybody you could think of

I can help with that a little bit. The LDS church recognizes two types of marriage: earthly marriage, or "temporal" marriage for life only, and temple marriage, or "eternal" marriage which ostensibly continues after death.

If a couple has not been married in the temple, infidelity with immediate repentance and no-contact is often only punished with temporary "disfellowshipment" or "probation", either formal or informal. Temporary restrictions may include not being allowed to hold church callings, prohibition from taking the Sacrament, ineligibility to enter the temple, and others as the Bishop or Stake President deems necessary. If the unfaithful spouse is unrepentant or the leadership decides it is necessary to protect the church from their actions, they may optionally elect to excommunicate the unfaithful spouse.

Typically, if the unfaithful spouse has any dirt on the betrayed spouse, the BS may also suffer disfellowshipment temporarily. Also, if the male has been through the temple and his wife has not, punishment is more severe for the one who has undertaken the temple covenant of the "Law of Chastity".

If married in the temple, excommunication of a sexually unfaithful spouse is usually swift. If @markc5466 and his WW are temple-married, his exposure to the Bishop will almost certainly cost @markc5466's wife her membership in the church, within the next month or two at most. Excommunicated members are allowed to attend, but prohibited from paying tithing, speaking in church, taking the sacrament, holding any calling, and their names are removed from the rolls of the church. In the MLS system, they are listed as "NONMBR", or "non-member".

If the member was high-profile, unrepentant, or a risk to other members, their name will be announced from the lectern as being excommunicated in a stake or ward meeting. This is a rare remedy for infidelity, however, and is usually only used for exmormon agitators or those who have defected to various polygamous off-shoots of the LDS church.

They may be re-baptized after a year and a petition to the First Presidency of the church, along with an endorsement of their repentance by their Bishop and Stake President. After re-baptism, they may have a temple ceremony performed called a "restoration of blessings" that restores all privileges and blessings held before the infidelity.

I'm intimately aware of this because I re-baptized my mother after her infidelity, and watched the whole process happen. Plus I participated in a number of excommunications, and had access to the confidential "Church Handbook of Instructions" which discusses these kinds of policies in frank detail.

Divorce alone is a separate matter. If divorcing for "irreconcilable differences", a no-fault divorce may not cause any restrictions on church participation. However, a female may not re-marry in the temple "for eternity" without first obtaining a "cessation of blessings" -- that is, an annulment of the first marriage -- then obtaining a new Celestial Marriage.

A man, on the other hand, may divorce a wife "for time" and take another wife in a temple marriage without first obtaining a cessation of blessings. However, he will be required to obtain "permission" from his first wife, in writing, before doing so. Typically, an acknowledgement that the man is performing his duties related to child support and alimony sufficiently is enough. If the first wife is unavailable or does not respond, he typically may only marry his second wife "for time only" unless there is compelling reason for a temple marriage with his second wife. The second wife being temple-worthy and not sealed to anyone else is often sufficient justification. If the first wife is deceased, he may marry a second wife in a Celestial Marriage without restriction.

Now, those are the facts, here's the part where I get a little bit speculative regarding culture, not policy

Divorce is frowned upon, and divorced men -- who divorce for reasons other than infidelity on the part of his former spouse -- aren't eligible for high church callings. Also, excommunicated and re-baptized members are ineligible for high church callings (Bishop and above), and of course women are completely ineligible for priesthood leadership callings regardless.

Do-No-Mo: I wouldn't say that excommunication always occurs when one has been married in the temple. In my case, my H and I were married in the temple and I was only disfellowshipped after my A. I was never excommunicated.

Thanks for the clarification, @writer1. I stand corrected.

What do you believe were the reasons for the disciplinary council deciding your infidelity warranted disfellowshipment rather than excommunication?

This is only speculation, of course, since I don't really know their reasoning, but I think few factors lead to me being disfellowshipped rather than excommunicated.

1. There was some time between the end of my A and the disciplinary council. The Bishop was aware of the situation during my A, because my H talked to him on a number of occasions, but I had stopped going to church. The Bishop really didn't want me to "confess" during this time, so even on the few occasions when I did talk to him, he didn't really seem to want me to give him too much info. about the situation, probably because he would have had to call a council much sooner if I did confess and I likely would have been excommunicated, and he didn't want that to happen. So, by the time I went before the council, my A had been over for about 5 months and I had already decided to stay and work on my M.

2. The reason I believe the Bishop wanted to pursue a course that would not result in my being excommunicated is because I do not think he believed that I would be likely to return to the church if I were excommunicated. I think he thought/thinks there was/is a better chance of my returning someday if I remain a member. I have not been active in the church for 3 years now, and I don't really see myself going back. There are just too many unresolved issues for me, and I don't think it would be very honest of me to go back feeling as I do.

My H was also disfellowshipped instead of excommunicated.

His affair was nearly a year and an OC was involved. I think it was a very close call. The stake president said he had expected the vote to go with excommunication and was suprised when it was just disfellowship.

I think it was the complete change of heart and attitude he had by the time the council convened. There are some specific guidelines, as well, as to "pretatory behavior" and others that he didn't really fall into. But truly, I think it was his humble, repentant attitude that made the difference. And it took him 5 months to get there after D-day.

There were quite a few people who thought the decision was wrong and the council was too easy on him, but I have to think it was for a purpose and they were directed to that decision.

He is a fully active, commited member and was reinstated after a year.

unresolved issues? The bishop should have ask for full details of the affair that is his job, he will determine what is best by what he feels right (with the spirit guiding him) that is why he is the bishop. It sounds like he did not do it correctly because now you are not active and you have unresolved issues which I do not know about or why? What do you think you would have done if you were excommunicated?

I had to tell the bishop everything, I remember sitting there and knew he felt uncomfortable asking the questions he even apologized and said "I'm sorry but I need to know everything I know it's hard" he was right it was hard that's why I was balling the whole time I was in there. It was hard remembering everything I had done to wheels.

I was not disfellowshiped or excommunicated I think mainly because it was an EA instead of a PA and because it was my first time doing something like this, he said if I repeat this again I would be excommunicated.

Before going to the bishop I told wheels I would do ANYTHING even getting re baptized if it came to that.

I'm sorry but this makes absolutely no sense. It is no business of anyone but writer what her reasons are for not returning to her church. She doesn't need to explain those reasons to you.

She doesn't have to tell me either, I was just confused and wanted to tell what happened with me. I didn't mean to sound rude, sorry.

One divorced friend is a church member, although no longer active. Other two divorced friends are not church members. 2 of the 3 are former adulterers, and all are already aware of the affair, and condone it, so they are of zero use for exposure.

How did the exposure go?

Mat- CA/San Jose- 85-87. Married my wife about 18 mos. after returning home. Happily married until the affair (but not according to her rewrite of history.) I am already experiencing the rage, and she is not even fully aware of all of the exposure yet. Hope we can survive this. I am putting alot of faith in the people on this board. Exposure, and its aftermath, sure are scary. WS is leaving tomorrow to stay with her sister for a week (leaving me home w/ 4 kids, work, home, etc.). Needs to "find herself" and "sort out her feelings". I have asked her to commit to absolute NC during this time. She has agreed, but obviously I have my doubts. Exposure seems to be taking its toll, and causing her to count the true costs. That's my hope anyway.

Too early to tell completely. Her church friends have all confronted her, and she is supremely unhappy about that. Her parents nor my parents have said anything yet, but they are actually all getting together today to talk about the situation. That could lead to some sort of "parental intervention", not sure. (That will not be pretty.) WS said she plans to talk to our 18-yo D tonight. If she finds out I have exposed to her, she will be livid. She is leaving tomorrow to stay with her sister in PA for a week, so I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing. Her sister has been very supportive of the marriage and against the affair, but is supportive of WS asserting her "independence", so I am ambivalent about this trip. I do feel that part of this trip is about escaping some of the pressures brought on by exposure.

I don't like the business of her leaving to 'sort things out.'

Ask her to call you as soon as she gets there, so you know she arrived safely. When she does, ask to speak to her sister, because you want to personally thank them for helping your family out during a hard time, or whatever. The whole point is to confirm that she's where she says she is.

If she doesn't call you within an acceptable amount of time, call her sister yourself. Because you want to make sure she got there safely, right? See what your SIL says.

If your WW refuses to let you talk to her sis, .

If her sis says something like "Oh, yeah, she's here but she just left to go to the store.

If WW calls you when she gets back from the 'store' and her sis is mysteriously not able to come to the phone

I'm worried that she's going to be with OM. I've seen the same scenario play out on this board many, many times. Especially knowing that she's leaving her kids behind in order to 'sort things out'. That's not the action of a typical, non-affairing mother. Confirm by talking to both of them at the same time.

Mark this was mine and wheels situation to THE T!!

Wheels exposed me

I went to live with my sister for 10 days

The night I left I realized what I wanted (my family and my life back)

Don't you worry about a THING what you need to do now is start focusing on you not her.

And when she leaves give her your plan B letter, stay dark! No emails, no text, nothing! Find an IM to help.

Is her sister active? Is she married with kids? Because if she is then this will help in your advantage.

This is what my sister did to help me realize what I wanted...

Call her sister up, talk to her about some things that you feel your wife should do and NOT to do

TO DO:
Only speak positive about your DH
Read the scriptures daily and pray
Have her only speak of good times she had shared with you
etc..

NOT TO DO:
Contact other man
take her phone away if she needs to call someone she uses her sisters
Talk negative about you or the marriage

Trust me this will help, because it helped me. I think I read like 4 books while I was there and reading the scriptures.

Two things:

1. Her leaving the house -- rather than attempting to force you out -- is actually A GOOD THING. To protect yourself, document the days that she's gone and you're holding the fort. Be prepared to show in court that you're the primary caregiver. Contact a lawyer -- you do pay for ARAG insurance through your work, right? -- to help you understand your best course of action to protect your children and yourself in this situation. This will help your bargaining position should worse come to worst. And if it things get better and she leaves the OM and commits to a program of marital recovery, you'll have deposited Love Units showing your strong and capable Family Commitment.

2. Unfaithful spouses move out for one reason, and one reason only: to make extra time with the lover. Period. That time may not happen for one reason or another, but they want to get away from you and the emotional turmoil surrounding your marriage in order to have time available for the lover. Nod and smile and play nice with her excuses, but know in your heart that reason, without the DJ of saying it aloud: she's moving out to be able to spend more time with him without your "interference". This is a good thing, too, as it forces the lover to start meeting all of her emotional needs.

If you're wrong in your assumption, you never said anything, therefore no DJ and hey, it's better than you thought! If you're right, you're prepared for the reality she's brought into your marriage against your will.

However, it's painful for you to know that what she's asking you to do is stand by and wait patiently while she painfully vacillates between you and her lover, deciding who she's going to pick.

Be prepared now to set very strong EPs before her return. Her leaving puts you in the position of strength here. You are the strong father, and she will be the supplicant returning. Make the following conditions of return to your home, and change the locks/garage combo/etc. if necessary to enforce your boundary:

1. No contact with the OM for life in any way.
2. Extraordinary Precautions to prevent contact, including complete transparency into all of her accounts. Dr. Harley recommends quite a few different things, like changing phone numbers and moving if necessary. Figure out what you need to feel safe, and those become your EPs.
3. Commitment to a marital recovery program of your choice. A few hundred bucks for the MarriageBuilders Online Course is worth it. Set aside time once a week to read aloud together and get your homework set up, as well as schedule your UA time for the coming week.


Her next step after a brief time away from you, and an attempted return without any Just Compensation -- if she follows the typical wayward wife script -- is to try to force YOU out of the home, to introduce the OM to her children and try to integrate him into her domestic life. It's much easier for a woman to bring a strange man into her domestic life than it is for him to bring her into his (this was just on the radio show on Tuesday). By documenting her abandonment of the children, you can prevent this turn of events and the Financial Support she'd force you into (child support that she lives off of). Once again, the OM would be forced to meet her needs, and will almost certainly (95%) fail in the attempt.

I already suspect everything that you have brought up. Since recorder finally forced her to own up to the fact that the affair has never ended, I have no expectations of NC at this time. She is supposed to come back from PA with a decision to either stop the A and agree to NC with EP, or to move out. I know that she is going to her sister's, because I have been in contact with her. It is 7 hrs away, and OM is local. He works construction, and has no money, so likelihood of him going to PA is low. I wouldn't be surprised if they hook up on the way there, though, but nothing I can do about that now.

Okay. Please do as I suggested anyway. Okay? Somehow, I don't think she's intending on going to PA to stay with her sister.

Sister is no longer a member, lives an "alternative lifestyle", actually just "married" her partner in DC a few weeks ago. She is surprisingly supportive of me, our marriage and our family though. This is not the best environment for her to make this decision, as she will essentially be on vacation while she is there (no kids, responsibilities, etc.). However, her sister can be quite tough with her, and has been very direct in her opinions that WS should think long & hard about what a good husband/family/life she has. The one thing that does worry me is that her sister is also rabidly feminist/anti-men/anti-traditional marriage, and likes to talk with my wife about being more independent and not being what she calls a "submissive Mormon wife"- whatever that is- I've never really met one, and my wife most certainly is not what I would call submissive. I actually sent her sister an email yesterday explaining what is now going on, since I have found that WS has been lying/concealing the truth from most everyone. If she has been doing the same to her sister, it will make for a very ineteresting visit. I do believe that a big reason for this visit is to get away from the pressure that has rained down upon her since exposure. Sister will not be on board with helping me control WS in any way. One of WS' issues is that I am too controlling. Obviously, this is not the best situation, but I do think that it could turn out to be positive. I had already planned to "go dark" when she leaves, but I am not ready for the Plan B letter just yet. Thanks for the advice.

Mark sorry this doesn't sound like a really good situation, I believe you best bet now is to give her the Plan B letter and STAY dark, do not answer and calls, no texts, nothing. And DO NOT I repeat DO NOT let her come back to the home unless she is willing to end all contact and work on the marriage.

You need this break for you Mark ok? Remember that. I wanted to come back home after the first night but wheels was not ready, hence why I stayed for 10 day's.

You need to be strong for your family ok?

That's fine, because you're not trying to control her. You're trying to save your marriage. Two separate things. Again, I would suggest that you confirm that she is there. Any decent (okay, maybe that word is a stretch under these circumstances)spouse human would be kind enough to let another concerned human know that they safely completed a seven hour trip.

I will talk with both of them once she is there. I am quite confident that she is going there. I know her sister pretty well, and she is surprisingly supportive of our marriage. She has no resources to arrange alternate living arrangements, and I have eyes/ears on all of her regular spots. I don't think she will hide locally for a week, but I do think that she may meet up with him on the way there and/or on the way back. As I said, given the fact that her lying about NC was just exposed this week, I have no expectations of NC right now. I have let her know in no uncertain terms that NC and EPM are non-negotiable if she wants to stay. I hate to say this, but maybe she needs to have one last fling with him before she will commit to try. (I almost threw up when I typed that, but if this thing needs to burn itself out to end, then let's throw some gas on it and light a match.) I do think that once he has to meet all of her EN's, it will end somewhat quickly. Her life is going to suck if she leaves, and he is going to get to meet Real WS, not just Date WS, if you know hwat I mean.

Mark,

Since your W is trying to "find herself". I offer you this from Pepperband's famous posts. Finding yourself

Enjoy,

JL

Here is my dilemma. WS used to work in my business. One of the things that she wanted to change after this all happened was to no longer work here, so for past 3-4 mos. she has been stay-at-home mom (which is great, she could have been doing that if she had let me know she wanted to). Because of this, she has no income, and is completely dependent on me for financial support. She has nowhere to go if she wants to leave, and I can't very well put her out on the street. She will not go and live with OM, because she knows there is no way I would allow her to take the children there. She has been actively looking for a job, but with no success so far. What am I to do?

Thanks, I actually read that last week and sent a copy of it to one of my wife's friends, who is a formerly WS herself. I have gone back and read it several times since. It is so true.

Give it to your W.

JL

You don't have a dilemma, mark. Your WW does. If you're going to fold because you won't let her own her choices, why don't you just let OM come and live with both of you? Stop controlling her, even in supposition. These are things she needs to be looking at right now. This is the Reality portion of the program that she's going to have to think about. Not you.

I could also say "I guess she should have thought about all of that before destroying your marriage and family."

I agree with everything you are saying. I have no intention of allowing this to continue. I guess my question is, how do I prevent her from coming back home if she won't agree to my terms? I am meeting with the top divorce attorney in our area on Monday, so maybe he will explain my legal options. I have told him that I am not interested in a divorce, but in killing the affair and waking my wife up to the reality of her choices. We'll see what he has to offer. I have been reticent to do this, but she leaves me no other option. If she comes back and agrees to NC/EPM, then I will just keep the attny on retainer, and keep that to myself.

If you don't want a divorce, don't go to a divorce attorney. They specialize in divorces, not killing affairs and waking spouses up.

If she comes back and says "Nope, I thought about it and I'm going to keep having my cake and eating it too" you thank her for her honesty. Then the next time she leaves the house you pack up all of her clothes, etc., put them at the front door and change the locks. You put a Plan B letter in with her clothes where she can find it.

When she comes back and starts pounding at the door you tell her she is welcome to come back when she's finished with OM, and you'll talk to her then. You will officially be in Plan B.

Is your home owned by both of you?

Agree about the attny, but need to protect myself, plus not going to allow her to take the kids. Also, would like to sue OM for alienation of affection, put a good scare into him. Home is owned jointly, so not sure what my legal rights are. Will be exploring that with attny.

You live in a state that recognizes AOA (North Carolina, right?), so you could have a claim. In that case it would make sense to get legal advice on your rights and on whether or not you have actual grounds for an AOA lawsuit, as well as on what you need to do to protect your children. That's a good call on your part.

The condoning one last fling thing - bad idea.

My H did it. Twice. He even paid for my plane ticket, believe it or not, and drove me to the airport (both times).

We are now raising my OC that resulted from the last "fling."

Do you really want to find yourself in that situation?

I'm glad you brought that up, writer. It's never a good idea for the affairees to meet one last time to make it "official" as you can well attest.

I think Mark realizes that there's a good chance WW will hook up with OM at some point this coming week. I just hope the outcome isn't a bad one.

Glad that I can serve as a cautionary tail to all mankind. I think I've found my purpose in life.

Yes, I too needed to "figure out what I really wanted" and "find myself."

I found myself all right. I found myself in one heck of a mess.

My wife, too, accused me of being "too controlling". You will never persuade her out of this while she is still a wayward.

Checking her phone records? You're too controlling.
Following her when she goes to hook up with OM, and confronting her half-naked and sweaty in bed with him? You're too controlling.
Calling the OM and telling him to stay away from your WIFE? Too controlling.
Calling everyone you know to ask them for advice on how to handle your wife's cuckolding? Too controlling.
Refusing to allow yourself to be manipulated by her lies and blame? Too controlling.
Not being willing to live with a woman who is fscking a man who isn't you? You're too controlling.
Telling the kids the truth about the trouble your marriage is in? Too controlling.
Not playing along with her lies? Too controlling.
Doing the same chores around the house you've done for years without complaint? You're trying to control her by mowing the lawn and making her feel guilty!
Refusing to pay for Internet service that she uses to keep in touch with her affair partner? You're too controlling!
Copying evidence of her affair to a place she can't destroy the evidence? That's just way, way too controlling!

You're trying to run her life, don't you see? By being a strong, upstanding husband doing the right thing, you're trying to control her with guilt. By gathering evidence of her affair, you're trying to control her behavior with fear of what you're planning to do with the damning evidence of her infidelity. By confronting the OM, you're trying to control her behavior because what if he doesn't want her anymore because he doesn't want that kind of trouble? By refusing to leave your home you're trying to control her and make her leave instead. By refusing to sleep in the guest room you're trying to control her to force her to sleep with you or go to the guest room herself.


PUH-LEEZE!

This "control" thing is wayward speak for "ruining my affair". So from now on, every time you hear her use the word "control" when talking about you, substitute "ruining her affair" or "opposing the affair" in your mind.

I had a fun night one time substituting the phrase "fighting for our marriage" aloud for every time she tried a blame-shifting phrase like "invading my privacy" or "controlling me". Drove her bonkers, and definitely DEFINITELY not recommended MarriageBuilders behavior, but it helped me keep my cool while she's finally the one that stormed off. She wasn't used to that and it put her off-kilter for a bit to really consider whether this other man was worth her marriage.

Also, don't expect her sister to stay on the side of your marriage for long. It takes a very strong person to continue to believe the right thing when a wayward wife starts heaping piles of imagined abuses on your head to everybody who will hear it.

This was also the case with my H. Met up with OW to "say goodbye" and end it (before I found out) and she became pregnant.

I will always think it was on purpose because she knew the end was coming and she had divorced her H for my H, but I can't prove it.

Last fling, bad idea and hard to forgive/forget. Try to avoid it happening.

Quoted for truth. Good post, DNM.

Okay, perhaps I mis-spoke about the "last fling". I certainly don't condone it, and definitely haven't told WS that would be okay. I just feel like she has ample opportunity and there's not much I can do about it at this point. Chance of pregnancy is miniscule since WS has had that taken care of (after 4 kids). Still, I am adamantly opposed to it, in fact the thought of it makes me sick. I was just sort of thinking out loud.

has her sister called you to let you know she is there?

Exposure update: WS was confronted by her sister and her mother last night. Got a very angry text from her, followed by a "no need to respond" text. I called mom and sis, and as expected, she had been lying to both of them about the A being over. Sister is still very much opposed to the A and in support of our marriage. I had a very good 1-hr phone convo w/ her sister, and she will be keeping tabs on her during her visit, and also is going to try to talk some sense into her. When I got home, I was expecting rage, but what I got was ice cold indifference. I continued to Plan A and told her that I knew she was very upset with me, that I understood why, that I was sorry she was upset, but I was not sorry about the exposure because I was trying to save our marriage/family. This morning before I left for work, she came and sat in my lap and hugged me and said "I am not going to remain angry with you, because I want this week in PA to be productive." So, she is on her way to her sister's, and I am home with the kids. I have decided to use this week as an emotional vacation from her, and try to spend some quality time with my kids. She will decide whatever she decides. I do believe that the pressure of exposure is doing its job though, and I only wish I had known about these concepts when this was just an EA. If I could do anything differently, I would have done nuclear exposure on the first day that I had confirmation of the affair. I truly believe that it would have ended quickly if I had done that.

Talked to sister last night, she is expecting her tonight. WS will be leaving this am, 7-hr drive. Sister is still opposed to affair & in support of marriage. WS had been lying to sis about A being over, and sis is very upset about that. Had a good discussion with her last night. She is in my corner. WS has promised to call to let me know she has arrived. We'll see.

Good job, mark. Keep us posted, okay?

EVERYONE say's that

People do not realize that it REALLY is the ONLY way to kill the affair they think by keeping it a secret will help their marriage but in fact it will just ruin it FASTER

I even asked wheels why he didn't expose earlier because I know it killed my affair dead on it's tracks

Don't forget, not just AOA, but also sue him for Criminal Conversations (legal term for adultery). I talked to a lawyer about them. Statute of limitations is 3 yrs for both, and theb lawyer wanted 33% or the up front paid $5000, whichever is more. So make sue OM HAS $5000 at least worth of stuff to take, unless you don't mind dropping some bills just to ruin him.

If you proceed with this let me know how it goes please. I am waiting until OM and OMW are done witheir divorce to see if OM 'gets back on his feet' before I move. I don't to pay $ for nothing, but he isn't going to even look for a job until D is done and alimony settled. Once that's over, he could get a contract job to go over to the Stan or something for upwards of $100k/yr, thinking he's in the clear and made off light on alimony. Then comes the slugger...

Maybe. Just waiting to see how it plays out.

WS arrived safely at sister's in PA last night. Called to let me know she was safe. Time of arrival syncs with departure time (verified by 18-yo D, who was home when she left). Texted me this am to check on kids. Seems in good spirits (reasonably good, but not "smokescreen good", if you know what I mean). Fingers crossed that she will do some soul-searching, and that her sister can have some positive influence. I guess now it's wait and see time. Meanwhile, trying to take an emotional break and take care of kids.

Did you talk to your sil to confirm that she is there? Calling at the right time isn't enough. She could have called you after getting 7 hours away in any direction.

Are you going into plan b? I think you should.

Need to use SIL's land line to confirm they are there.

BBW

Blood beats water.

Yes, confirmed with sis, also have talked to both this am. She is definitely there.

what is your next plan? You sure can't plan A her while she is 7 hours away, have you thought more about entering into plan B?

I highly recommend this.

Very unsure about what to do during this time. I know that blood is thicker than water, but I also know for a surety that SIL is 100% against this affair. She has been in regular contact with me (w/o WS' knowledge) since the beginning, and has never wavered in her support. I spent 1 hour on the phone with her Wed night, and she is highly ticked off that WS has been lying to her about A being over. She has even threatened to come down here and confront OM herself. She is very attached to our kids, and I am 100% certain that I have a friend in her. With that said, I am afraid to Plan B right now, while WS is in such a fragile emotional state. She is really feeling the effects of exposure, and I don't feel that now is the right time to cut her off. When she initially left, she said she did not want me to contact her, but she has contacted me several times since then. All were normal too, not rosy, sweet stuff (the kind of stuff she has done in the past when erecting a smokescreen). Although she has promised NC and SIL has promised to monitor as much as she can, I still know that OM will try to contact her. I am afraid of being "out of sight, out of mind". I may be completely off-base here, but I'm going with my gut on this one. Once she returns, if she does not fully commit to NC and EPM, then I am definitely going into full Plan B.

No, I think you're on the right path. Keep going.

Mark, it IS possible to Plan A from afar. It HAS been done before. It is harder but it IS possible.

Now,having that out of the way, you need to do this YOUR way.

You would go into Plan B after a certain amount of time and seeing that your WW has NOT ended all contact, which means it is still an active affair. Plan B isn't meant to be a punishment, it is a TACTICAL move. It is something that you do because it is the right move for YOU.

Are you ready for Plan B? You need to prepare everything beforehand. In the meantime, I would suggest that you Plan A as much as possible while she is out of town.

Definitely not ready for Plan B. Trying to Plan A- flowers to arrive today, card from me to arrive tomorrow, etc. Came home Wed night expecting post-exposure wrath, but instead got icy indifference. Stayed in Plan A- very kind, I understand how you feel, etc. By yesterday morning, she was quite decent to me. She has even said to me more than once since I started Plan A- "I have a hard time staying mad at you." I know her feelings for me are still there, just buried beneath her feelings for OM. If the combination of distance and the watchful eyes of her sister can help her to maintain NC for a time, I believe I have a fighting chance. Maybe I am being naive', but I figure there is plenty of time for Plan B later, and I am emotionally capable of continuing Plan A. In fact, I could continue Plan A for quite some time if she would commit to NC. What I can't do, and won't do, is continue to allow the A to go on. As I have said before though, it looks like exposure is beginning to work its magic- it is going to force a decision- one way or the other.

If your WW stopped her affair and had NC than there would be no need for Plan A anymore. You would be changing to recovery.

If your WW continues her affair, you WILL need to enter Plan B after a certain amount of time. I know that right now you feel fine, but there will come a time when Plan A will take its toll. It isn't meant to be done indefinitely.

Right now, focus on Plan A, but don't let it turn into Plan Doormat. Ensure you let your WW know that you are willing to recover your marriage but that you are not willing to accept an affair as part of that marriage. That there are boundaries that you have in place and that you will defend those boundaries. Plan A is about showing your WW the WILLINGNESS and ABILITY to meet her ENs in the FUTURE.

I don't know if you read the newly betrayed thread but there are some excellent posts by Mark about Plan A. Here is the link, http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2370240&page=2

Is sending flowers and cards something you normally have done for her, Mark? You need to be careful doing this, if it isn't. Like Scotty said, you don't want to appear needy or weak, or like you're trying to bribe her. You want to appear strong and reliant, and an attractive choice to return to. Not a doormat.

Yes, this is normal for me- but I see where you are coming from about appearing weak and needy, and that is something that I need to guard against. I don't plan to bombard her with things every day. Also, I have made it known to her in no uncertain terms that I will no longer tolerate the A. She has a decision to make, which is to break off the A and agree to NC/EPM, or to leave our home. That is not negotiable.

Mark,

Do you know who OM is? Do you know where he works? Do you know where he lives? do you know anything about his family?

If so, then you might consider explaining to him how you feel about him and what he is doing to your family. You cannot vent to your W right now, but you sure can to him. Think about it.

If I were you I would cease all contact with W, no more flowers, cards, etc. If she calls you are in plan A, otherwise step back. You need to focus on your children, they have been badly harmed by all of this and you need to discuss with them what they think and how they feel.

They need a parent that won't lie to them and that will listen to them. I believe I recall that you exposed to the children, if so do talk with them, do spend time with them, enjoy one another, take them out to eat. In short, soak up the time with them. You mentioned a D18, then that means she is very likely out of the house to college next year or off to a job, now is the time to be with her.

Focus on them, don't focus on what you cannot control (your W's decisions and how they have hurt you). You focus on those kids and make sure they know their Dad loves them and will listen to them. I am certain even if they don't know everything, they know things are bad in your household. Explain to them your feelings for wanting to try and rebuild, your feelings about marriage and the vows. This is an educational moment and an OPPORTUNITY to grow closer to your children, make the most of it.

In short, quit worrying about W, it really is in her hands not yours. You will make the correct decision when the time comes so don't worry about it. Instead focus on your children, their needs, their worries, and what makes them happy.

God Bless,

JL

Yes, I know pretty much everything about OM. He has very few redeeming qualities- divorced, felon, big drinker/partier, no stable employment, financially destitute, etc. I saw someone on this board say that WS always "affair down", and that is definitely the case here. I have spoken with him 3-4 times. A couple of nasty confrontations (one in person, one by phone), and then a couple of rational, calm phone conversations. In typical OM fashion, he is sorry for the damage that is being caused, but he is "in love", blah, blah, blah. He is divorced from his wife of 18 yrs for guess what- he had an A while married to her and she dumped him. He is a jack-leg carpenter, so no way to apply pressure there. WS has actually contacted me a couple of times today, so I do feel that I am still in Plan A. I have actually been doing exactly what you suggest relative to the children. I spent about 2 hrs last night talking to the older 2 (18 & 15). They are fully aware of everything. The younger 2 (11 & 10) know there are problems, but are not aware of the A, and I just can't bring myself to talk with them about it. I do plan to spend whatever time WS is away to take an emotional/mental break from all of this, and focus on the kids. Thanks for the advice.

Your children NEED to be told.

What have they been told about this separation?

Older children know that she is making her choice about whether to stay or go. Younger children just know that she is visiting her sister for a week or two.

Do you condone lying to your children?

No, but I don't believe that the younger two need to hear about their mother's adultery at this point. I will have an age-appropriate discussion with them when I feel the time is right. This may not be right, but that is what I have decided to do.

@mark -

You are your kids parent. You get to decide what is appropriate for them. Nobody else can tell you different. They can suggest and give you their opinions, but that is all.

I forget who initiated this Trip Of Decision (TOD). If it was POJA then I think it is Plan A Carrot. If it was her decision (IB) then it could be looked at as breaking NC, I would treat it Plan A Stick.

Oh I know I can't MAKE Mark tell his children. I do believe that he is LYING to them. He is not doing them any favours by lying and is actually doing a disservice to them and to HIS WW.

Children should be told about the affair so they know it is WRONG.

Dr HArley advocates telling children as young as FOUR.

Your older children know. And did you tell them NOT to tell the younger ones?

What if your WW decides she is NEVER coming back? What are you going to do then?


ETA: Clark, how is this an affairage? Did she MARRY this OM? That is what we call an affairage here.

Mark,

I certainly endorse the "age appropriate" telling of them. I would like you to consider this. If your W were to come back and say "Mark I have decided it is over, I want a divorce." Your two younger ones will be blindsided by this. They at least need to know your W is trying to decide if she wants to remain married to you or not. That way if the decision is negative, they will have their emotional feet under them.

Please think about this. Kids are very smart, they just don't operate with as much data as adults do. In this case your children all of them need data, they can figure things out from there.

God Bless,

JL

Just tell the younger kids that mom has a BF and married women don't have BF's and go on dates with them.

These two need to find out from you not years later from their siblings or who knows who. Actually it will be helpful that you have your older kids there to be able to talk with the younger ones after you tell the younger ones.

Kids.

If they don't have the data to supply a rreason, they tend to assume THEY are the reason. This is fro/ my personal experience not so long ago as a kid.

TheRoad siad it pretty good. Mommy has a boyfriend and it is wrong for mommy's to have boyfriends while they are married too daddies.

From this experiences, your kids are learning by observation about:

The importance of honesty
The sanctity of marriage
Personal choice, consequences and responsibility
Handling stress
Self control
Personal strength
Moral behavior
Kindness and compassion

And on and on. Right now, they are watching you, because mommy is gone. They don't know why she is gone though you can bet they know mommy and daddy are upset, so they could very likely be assuming its because of them.

You are also demonstrating all the above and tons more by your actions.

Are your actions reflecting your personal values? Are they the actions you want them to take when they grow up should they find themselves in a similar situation? Are you demonstrating the importance of honesty?

If you are, good on, keep going, best of luck. If not, that's fine, think on it and modify your behavior.

Learn and grow.

Best wishes man, have fun with the kiddos, they can be awesome comfort through this. Mine was.

Okay, I need some help. Found out WS was in contact with OM during her trip so sister's in PA (email/text, no phone or in person). Confronted her, she admitted it, I told her she must decide before she returns- either she will break off all contact with OM and commit to NC/EM/etc., or I don't want her to come back into our home. Told her I was meeting with attny to better understand my rights, and that I would do everything within my power to prevent her from taking the children. For the first time, I sensed genuine remorse. She said she knows she has a serious problem, is ruining her life, mine and the kids, and must stop. That was yesterday morning. Last night, had a long, hearfelt conversation with her, in which she committed again, but said she is not sure she wants to come home. She feels that she needs to work on herself, and that can best be accomplished by living apart. I know this is wayward-speak, but she agreed to my terms of full custody of kids, and is allowing me to negotiate other terms of separation, without getting herself an attny. This morning, she called to let me know she had finally and officially broken it off w/ OM (this is the third time, by the way), she is coming back to town Thursday, but has found an apartment. The apartment is right in our neighborhood, which is good because of the kids, but it doesn't make much sense if she is planning to continue with OM. ??? So, I guess I am on to Plan B. I have had this promise of NC before, but somehow this one seems different, more serious and sincere. She has also agreed to start the repentance process (LDS posters will know what I am talking about here). If she does that, it will be a major sign to me that she is serious about stopping the A, as I can't imagine anyone intentionally beginning that process if they weren't serious about stopping the transgression. (That's not to say they couldn't relapse, but I don't think they would enter into it with the intention of a relapse.) Any thoughts, ideas or advice on how I should proceed?

Mark,

One thing hit me in what you said: She found an apartment in only one day from long distance??? Color me a bit skeptical, but this sounds like a plan in place for awhile.

I do think you MUST talk to all of your children about this change in their lives and what it means.

I would also point out that her saying that she will start the repentance process doesn't mean she has started it or will actually start it. But one can always hope.

I do worry as I am sure others will also about her "working on herself." This is typical WS "fog speak" because if they could "work on themselves" they probably wouldn't have done what they did. I would suggest you enquire as to what her plan for "working on herself" is. Does she have a counselor? Does she have a plan to keep OM from contacting her? Does she have a plan to resist the temptation of contacting him? Who is going to spiritually guide her on her quest to "work on herself"? I think you get where I am going.

Without a plan, her working on herself will be like my diet plans...I plan to lose 20 lbs. No deadline, no start date, no diet in mind, no plan for exercise. So have effective do you think my "plan" has been over the last 10 years? No so good, are you surprised?

Hang in there, things are changing and change can lead to opportunity as well as the end.

God Bless,

JL

I have known that she was looking for somewhere to live for some time. She has been waffling on separation for a long time, and has made no bones about it. So, the apt. is no surprise, I have been expecting it. My belief is that the pressure of exposure has lead her to finally become serious, for the first time, about NC. I am not thrilled about the separation, but something has to change, one way or the other. If she submits to the LDS repentance process, it will be a very specific process, with very specific requirements, and will be closely monitored. By no means will it be relapse-proof, but the fact that she would even begin the process speaks volumes to me about her level of commitment. In the past, she has been extremely reluctant to even talk about it. I don't know, I just sense a level of remorse that I never have before. Believe me, I am extremely concerned about the opportunities for renewed/increased contact with OM, but in the final analysis, she is going to have to make some sort of decision, and until she does, I don't want her in my home anyway. Does that make sense?

Yes it does Mark.

JL

Okay, let's look at the

WS was in contact with OM during her trip so sister's in PA
I was afraid of this.

she committed again, but said she is not sure she wants to come home.
Then she's not committed. She's considering her options, that's all.

she called to let me know she had finally and officially broken it off w/ OM (this is the third time, by the way), 3 times, so this time is no different and means nothing. She is attempting to appease you.

The apartment is right in our neighborhood, which is good because of the kids, but it doesn't make much sense if she is planning to continue with OM It makes perfect sense. She wants unfettered access to her children and any EN's you give her, and she wants the space to continue her A with OM, without your interference. She couldn't very well do that if she came home. She's cake-eating.

I would go into a firm Plan B. Set up an IM and get your Plan B letter together. Pack up her things and tell her she needs to come and get them. Leave them outside for her so she can't see or talk to you. Have a written agreement on her visitation schedule with the kids.

In other words, start forcing her to see the physical result of a life without you and with limited access to her children.

I agree, Plan B immediately.

Just to add my input...

This is a perfect time to Plan B. Be a courteous, gentle husband, help her move her things, avoid relationship talk, give her a little help getting started, show her what an amazing man you are...

And THEN cut her off. Deliver the Plan B letter via your intermediaries, do not see or speak to her unless it is for her to talk about how she plans to never see or speak to OM again, enforce extraordinary precautions to prevent this from happening again, and commit to a marital recovery program together.

I'm with DNM, with one big stressing point: DO NOT FINANCE YOUR WW'S A. Close checking accounts in both of your names. Close credit card accounts, etc. She may have been living on Fantasy Island, thinking the money flow would continue while she continues her affair. LET HER KNOW THAT THIS WILL NOT BE HAPPENING. CLOSE THOSE ACCOUNTS. She's now on her own financially.

With the caveat: do that at the same time as you deliver the Plan B letter, or slightly before. You want to leave the best possible impression of the husband you can be when she comes to her senses. Be the sweet, loving, kind, gentle husband, even voluntarily giving her a little cash to "help out" with her getting started in her new apartment if you'd like (Financial Support at play here).

And THEN bring the hammer down. Don't mix the signals prior to the Plan B letter; you're in Plan A until you're in Plan B. Don't be a doormat, but try not to withdraw any Love Units immediately prior to the Plan B letter. You want her to be very, very surprised that you're putting your foot down on the affair, and to realize you mean business about no-contact with her until she's agreed to stop seeing OM, commits to various EPs (that will be the purpose of your first "date" to end Plan B, should that day come: confirming the EPs she's putting in place), and agreement to a program of marital recovery together.

Yes to what DNM said. Understand: You don't want ANY marital money going to support the A. This could be a huge wake-up for your WW - if she's used to financial support, she's going to need some in order to set up her affair-nest. OM may not like that.

The apartment is GOOD because of your kids? Don't quite understand where you're coming from with that. If she is not employed, how does she get an apartment and lay down the necessary deposit, first months rent, set up utilities, etc? Has she been taking money out of your accounts on a regular basis? Do you monitor your finances? You seem entirely too trusting for someone whose wife has been cheating, almost bordering on gullible - you don't REALLY believe they had sex only once, right?

I dont want to offend you or anyone else here who is religious, but perhaps you ought to set aside the church and any repentance process, and, as one poster seemed to suggest, that Satan is involved here. Your wife is just your common garden variety cheater involved in a sordid affair, and doesn't seem to feel that your beliefs are any hindrance at all so perhaps you ought to drop that line of thinking and work the MB program exclusively and worry about the getting back into the good graces of the church later. You did great on the exposure part but you now need to get more of the stick part going in the carrot/stick of Plan A.

It seems to me if she really was committed and was starting the repentance process, she would be moving home to make amends to you and repair the marriage. Why would she want to be apart if she was so remorseful and wanting to be with you and never speaking to OM again? I don't believe her for a minute.

She will not be transparent or accountable if she has an apartment. She won't be able to show you her behavior and attitude is different, because she is not home! You will not know what is going on in her life.

I totally agree with the other posters that this is the best way for her to continue on with OM without hassle. Full custody for you during this time means she won't have to find a sitter to be with OM. (Although much better for you and the kids).

She is still thinking about herself and OM. Not you. Not your children.

Mark,

In addition to EMPHASIZING that NC is mandatory, as are EPs and commiting to 'a marital rfecovery program' (by which I read appointment with the Harley's), I have one more thing...

You need to EMPHASIZE that you are fighting FOR YOUR FAMILY.

This seperation IS NOT what you want. You are a father and a husband and the best thing for YOUR FAMILY is that your wife cease this affair, come home, and commit to repairing your relationship.

You seem to be way too 'hands off' in allowing her to go off to her sisters or SAY NC with no EPs. Obviously you can't force her to do anything, but YOU CAN and SHOULD have boundaries. If she leaves your house, whether to go to her sisters, or get an apartment, THAT IS NOT GOOD FOR YOUR FAMIILY. Regardless if the PA continues, her not being there is bad for your family and bad for your marriage.

Not coming home, for all intents and purposes might as well be the same as moving in with OM.

You need to treat it as such.

Don't finance an affair. Who is paying for this apartment? I hope its not you, because then you are contributing to the destruction of your family, and lowering your personal boundaries. You are teaching your kids that they should shield people from the consequences of their actions, even at great personal expense.

Is that what you want?

Whose idea was this sister trip or this new apt thing? Hers? She's a totally fogged falling wayturd drunk, you trust her thinking? Yours? Your thinking got you into this and onto this site (thanks Melody Lane, this was the statement that opened my eyes when I went through this)

Your wife is going to remember your actions, whether or not your marriage succeeds.

Do you want her to remember the man who let her go?

Or the man who fought relentlessly with no quarter to bring her home, protect her children, all while allowing her to make and live by her own choices?

Also, @ americajin's post:

I happen to agree that MB minus god works just fine, however, if your WW and you want to include the church IN ADDITION to counseling with Harley's, I don't think it would be bad at all. Include your bishop or w/e its called (sorry I don't know...) on your MB stuff, explain to them and get their support. Harleys are very christian focused, though thankfully jennifer didn't try to force it on my WW and I. I am sure they can be quite accomadating and cooperative with help from your church.

Your church can provide you and her with support, and more ways to ensure NC.

Neither is bad, just get everyone on the same plan.

What DNM and maritalbliss are suggesting is exactly what I had planned. I am going to be as good to her as I can be for the next few days, until she gets herself setlled in. After that, complete shutdown. Separation of finances is already being taken care of. No more money from Papa Bear- she's on her own. Hopefully, she will realize her mistake before too long. I have no intention of allowing her to come home without firm commitment to NC/EP, and I have already let her know that if/when that happens, this will be the last chance. If she comes back with those promises, and I discover that she is sneaking around again, that will be it.

Okay, let me be perfectly clear here- I am not financing this separation in any way. WS now has a job, and she is completely on her own financially. I was not in support of the trip to sister's, but I can't "allow" or "not allow" my wife to do anything. She is an adult. I am fully aware that there is a great likelihood that she may continue the A at this time. There is nothing I can do about that, except Plan B, wait and see if she changes or not. It may be that this A has to burn itself out. She has a choice to make- OM or our family. If she chooses our family, I am willing to give her a chance. If she continues to choose OM, then I don't want her back anyway. My primary focus at this time is the physical/mental/emotional/spirtual welfare of my children.

I think you're doing great. Keep doing what you're doing. There are a couple of things that are going to happen that may well tip your WW back to the M:

1. The reality of not seeing her children whenever she wants is going to gnaw at her maternal instincts. This will cause conflict within her. She will take that conflict out on OM and eventually blame him for her inability to see her kids whenever she wants.

2. The reality of openly conducting an A and living away from her family will likely be difficult for her. Does she drink? She may begin drinking more heavily to drown the guilt that is within her, however deep she's tried to bury it.

3. The fantasy glow of the A is going to wear thin over time, as real-life stuff intrudes. Paying bills, making ends meet, doing housework, the discovery of personal habits and personality quirks that aren't attractive - all the stuff of reality that normally takes a back seat in an A.

I know this sounds counter-intuitive, mark, but I hope the OM moves in to your WW's apartment. Then she can deal with all the above, plus the logistics of having to see her children away from OM. Because you'll make that a stipulation of her visitation rights.

Close but not quite. I mean choose one of the three programs on this page: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi9000_courses.html .

Reality of the situatio w/ kids is already setting in. She has already tried to pass the "telling the kids mommy's moving" duty over to me. No way, she's not going to miss out on that. She doesn't drink, unless that is a new habit she has picked up w/ OM, it wouldn't surprise me, though. Exposure has pretty much shattered the fantasy glow. OM lives in another city, so likelihood of him moving here is slim. Plus, she knows that I will not tolerate him being around my kids. Given the proximity of her apt. to our home, it would be extremely difficult for her to see OM there without everyone in the neighborhood knowing about it. We live in a small community with lots of family members nearby, so everything that happens at her new apt. will be known almost instantly (just the nature of a small, family community).

Very good. I forgot OM was in another city - even better.

Here's what she's going to be dealing with: lots of time on her hands when she's not working. Without OM consistently contributing deposits to her LB by being physically around, she's going to be at odds with herself. She's going to be depriving herself of the EN's she gets by being at home.

Yep, I'd say make her accept responsibility for her actions, and sit back and let exposure do its work.

DNM, I have gone back and re-read your 4mth and 1yr threads, and the beginning stages sound remarkably similar to mine. Since your wife is LDS and you are former LDS, I'm sure you understand the significance of WS beginning the formal repentance process w/ Bishop. I will take that as a very positive sign, if/when it occurs. Thanks for being here, your success gives me a glimmer of hope, when at times it seems I have no hope at all.

Her moving out will cause exposure to be even more widespread. Enough people know about the A, that when questions start to arise about her new residence, 2+2 will equal 4. Again, the nature of a small community. Before the A, she has always been an extremely good mom, completely devoted to the children, so I expect this to be extremely tough for her. One of her top EN's is admiration, and she will be getting none from family.

Happy to help. I recognize the significance of confession to a bishop; it indicates a willingness to own one's behavior, and that is a very helpful sign.

However, I will point out that leaders are instructed that the purpose of confession & discipline are to save the souls of transgressors, protect the innocent, and safeguard the good name of the Church. A Bishop's counsel is aimed at those targets... not saving the marriage.

That's up to you and your wife. So when the reality of the situation hits her, be ready for the hard work to really start!

It took my wife about a month after the no-contact letter to go see her Bishop. Since her transgression wasn't sexual, and she'd decided already to stop seeing the other man, no discipline was imposed. Her bishop was one of my first exposure targets; it helped that he was a family friend already.

Good luck in your journey. The main benefit to LDS culture that I see is that, among those who are temple-married, the divorce rate is exceptionally low, infidelity is strongly discouraged, and the community supports a MarriageBuilders-style approach. In fact, my wife and I last night discussed the possibility of running a weekly free class in her church using "His Needs, Her Needs", "Love Busters", and "Five Steps To Romantic Love" as the textbooks.

Don't keep any secrets for her, and identify the reason squarely if anybody asks. If a church-goer asks "where's Wanda today?", respond "she moved out to spend more time with her boyfriend. How are you doing today?"

Clear, to the point, and ends that line of questioning. It might mean your wife will want to move out-of-state when she comes home, though.

I would only advocate not following this approach if you're aware that the person you're speaking to is, themselves, an unrepentant wayward. Unfortunately, LDS culture also typically very secretive about this kind of thing. Most people outside of the immediate family -- even those who had known her for decades -- were entirely unaware my mother's seventeen-year marriage was to her affair partner!

Thanks for calling that one! Noted and will remember in the future!

UPDATE: WS has now moved into her new apt., children are staying with me, with regular visits to her. She has agreed to NC, but not to sending NC letter. She made a full and complete confession to our two teenage daughters, including a promise to them that the A was now over and that she was trying to make changes in her life to become a better person and a better mother. That was huge for her, as this is the first time that she has even mentioned the A to them, even though she knew I had exposed to them. She was extremely remorseful, and it was emotionally draining for her. In fact, she physically collapsed into my arms after talking to each of them. Her entire attitude has changed from one of belligerence and defiance to one of humility and remorse. Even when I screw up my Plan A and argue with her, it now results in tears rather than angry confrontation. She seems to be back into serious withdrawal (which I have seen once before when she made a serious attempt at NC), which makes me believe that she is trying to keep NC. She admitted to me last night that OM had sent her an email, to which she responded with a request that he not contact her anymore. Obviously, my snooping opportunities are limited with her out of the house, but every indication is that NC is in place. I have checked on several things and so far everything has checked out. I am not na�ve enough to believe that this is necessarily the case, but not much I can do at this time. I plan to continue Plan A as best I can for the foreseeable future. A complete Plan B will be very difficult, due to dealing with the children, proximity of our homes in our small community, and the fact that we attend the same church. I have read on other threads about a �modified Plan B� or a �180 Plan�, wherein the BS does not initiate any contact with the WS, but when interactions occur, they continue to Plan A. Is anyone familiar with this? For the LDS posters, or those familiar, she did attend all 3 hours of church yesterday, and had a brief conversation with the Bishop about making an appt. for an interview. My thoughts have been that if she made this commitment to our daughters, and then began the formal process with LDS Bishop, that would be two huge indicators of her seriousness and sincerity. (One down, one to go.) Meanwhile, I am still very worried that she will break NC, but not sure what I can do about that.

I do not like the fact that she has her own apartment, she needs to move in so you can keep tabs on her and ensure that there is NC.

Seeing the bishop is a step but I'm still worried that she is just gas lighting everyone so she can still have OM. We will find out though

Good luck!

I don't like it either, but I wasn't really given any choice. I am very sensitive to the possibility of gaslighting, and will be paying close attention for its signs. Exposure continues to work its magic. I can't overemphasize how big it was for her to fully confess to two teenage daughters, and to commit to them that she was through with OM. I believe her intentions are sincere, just not sure about her will power. Since her move, she has busied herself with the kids, church activities, and even a "date" with me on Friday. I visited her last night, and the familiar depression of withdrawal was evident. She is being fairly open about her difficulty with NC and withdrawal, which is also something new. In the past, she has always denied this. As you say, we shall see.

@markc5466 -

Because of no verifiable NC. You must assume the affair is still active. Because she is no longer in the home you need to Plan A your azz off. Use the carrot and stick. Part of your Plan A needs to include getting her back in the home.

Name changed to protect the innocent from unfriendly lurkers.

I have been having a very hard time avoiding LB's when interacting with WS. Her defiant attitude is gone, but the indifference and coldness is back. Could this be withdrawal? I did have a successful day yesterday, and managed no LB's during our interactions. I have decided that I will not initiate contact with her, but will Plan A my butt of when she contacts me, or when interacting re: the kids. Any thoughts/advice? Some of you veterans- how did you avoid LB's when you felt like WS was treating like a pile of crud that they were trying to scrape off their shoe?

I suspect it is more likely that she is in contact with OM and is hardening her heart toward you. I think it's a way of putting emotional distance between the two of you, with a weird mix of being mean toward you so you don't start getting up what she would consider 'false hope.'

Do NOT forget how important you are when she's trying to treat you like this! You have so much value - when I hear this, and remember how snotty my FWH was to me and the kids during his A, it makes me want to kick someone's butt!

Grrrrr....

The strange thing is that during the times that I know for sure she was in contact with OM, she was actually very nice to me (gaslighting). And speaking of "false hope", my WS has what I have named the "False Hope Speech", which I used to get at least every 3 days...."I know things are going well, but I don't want you to get false hope...." Sunday night when I went over to her place for a talk/visit, I saw the despair that I have seen before when she had established NC. So, as you can see, I am very confused- could be withdrawal, could be OM contact. I think you are right- I have to remember to control what I can control- ME.

Another non-LB day. Also, I resisted the urge to contact her all day. When she came to drop off the kids, I was able to do some good Plan A work. Plan A is very hard when you get absolutely nothing back. What advice did I read from one of the vets on another thread?- NO EXPECTATIONS! That is good advice.

It's also pretty difficult to Plan A a WW who isn't even living with you and is in all likelihood still in contact with the OM.

I'm sorry, but a repentant wayward who is serious about NC and recovering the marriage doesn't move out of the marital home and get her own apartment.

Just wanted to say best of luck, former boyfriends are brutal. My wife is trying to relive her twenties now with an exboyfriend and its killing me.

You do the best you can, I am pulling for you and me both.

Cheers

Oh, I'm well aware that NC may or may not be in place. I just feel that I need to Plan A as best I can for awhile, so that Plan B doesn't feel like punishment. I have read that Dr. H usually recommends continuing Plan A for 2-3 weeks after WS moves out, before proceeding to Plan B. I think that is where this is heading. I am just really struggling to keep up a good Plan A right now. I have no realistic delusions about this, it's just that as a BS, you want to believe them so badly, sometimes that is the only thing that gives you hope. This, of course, is usually followed by severe disappointment when you find out they have lied to you again. That is why I think NO EXPECTATIONS is the key, and right now- I have none. (That's what I keep telling myself, anyway.)

On the rollercoaster today. Great day for Plan A. Went to cheer WS on in 5k race this am, WS came over for Thanksgiving lunch w/ me + kids (cooked by D15, the next Rachel Ray). All went great, going to 5k made major LB$ deposits, and WS mentioned how nice today was, misses time with the kids, etc. Absolutely no LB's. About 2 hrs after she left, I was climbing the walls- missing her terribly. I guess a few hrs of normalcy brought back a lot of intense pain. Just glad it didn't happen while she was still here. Took a long walk and I am straight now. Isn't the emotional roller coaster ride exciting (and terrifying)?

It can help to pretend.

What would you do if she was to pass away in an accident?

You would grieve. There might be a period of time when you couldn't function normally.

Eventually, you would get through it, and your life would normalize.

You are living the first part. Yes?
The 2nd part will come too. Concentrate every day on what you need to do. What you are supposed to do.

Eventually, you would find joy again. You would go out and do things with the kids. You are not single.......... but you can still do the actions that you would have to do to recover from that kind of experience. As you know, actions have an effect on our emotional makeup. They affect our attitude.

We pray for you.

SS

Good advice SS- much appreciated. I have often thought that it would be easier if she died than dealing with this ordeal. Your prayers are much appreciated. Faith is about the only thing that keeps me going these days.

I think you and I are on the same timeline. You hang on no matter what and I will do the same. My wife I think busted me snooping - caught her trying to make contact again and shes wearing his ring for crying out loud. She changed her email address last night to talk to her girlfriends - who also cheated.

No matter what, this does not break me and he does not get my wife without a fight. If she wants to go, thats her choice. I am standing up for my kid and my marriage. If it all goes down in flames, nobody - least of all me is gonna say I didn't have the courage to saddle up when the time came.

I know its a roller coaster, we are both on it and I think I just threw up over the side from being on here for three months. It sucks, its the hardest thing I ever did, it makes anything you did before look easy.

I am not done fighting and don't you dare quit on me either.

R531, sorry you are here. I think we are on the same timeline. It is so hard to fight for your marriage when it seems that the other person wants to join the fight. Just like you, when all is said and done, I must know that I have done everything in my power to save this marriage. I have faith in God, and I have faith in the MB principles. I also still love my wife, despite the torture that she has put me through. My kids need their mom, and I need my wife. These are the things that keep me going. Keep the faith, brother. The people on this board have been invaluable to me. They will be to you too. Hang in there.

Lately, WS has been reluctant to accept my invitations to spend time together, so I tried something new yesterday. Our 2 younger kids have been out of town w/ grandparents since Wed., so neither of us has seen them. WS did come in and sit with me and other kids at church. She asked me to let her know when the younger kids would be home, so they could come and visit her. I told her "I will be cooking family dinner tonight after the kids get home. You are welcome to join us, if you'd like." She gave me her usual response- "We'll see." She asked me to let her know what time. I called her with the time, and she said she would come. She came over, and we had a great time. Even got to spend some time alone with her, while the kids were getting their baths. This is an idea I got from one of the vets here, who said "plan fun things to do with the kids and invite your spouse, then do them whether they come or not." Good advice. A nice evening together, with absolutely no LB's.

@TB -

Which intimate EN are you meeting?

-Conversation
-Affection
-Sexual Fulfillment
-Recreational Companionship

For a WS out of the home I think the first two become critical. The first one will seem to be stilted to be all about the WS and their lives. IMHO I would follow the line of not offering any opinion unless directly asked. Eventually the WS may start to inquire about you and your day. Keep it brief unless prompted for more information. She is in the same position as you in the information void.

Affection can be shown by texting her the next day after a conversation. You can text her about how she looked good when she came over for dinner. Remember you have a huge history together. Use this to your advantage.

It looks to me that the linchpin for your plan A is the kids.

Keep up the Plan A.

Her top three EN's are: conversation, affection & admiration. I think I can work all three of these. SF is off the table right now (not by my choice). You are absolutely right about the kids, they are the key. It's interesting that you mention the affectionate text. I actually send her a goodnight text every night, which she responds to. Right now, I am sort of in a modified Plan A. I have backed off on contacting her every day, and am sort of letting her come to me. She has said that she wants to have "that feeling of longing or missing you". I know that his could be fog-babble for "leave me alone", but I also know that the feeling of longing or missing the kids will be all too real. For that reason, I am going somewhat dark, but when we are in contact, I am Plan A-ing my butt off. Since we are living apart, it is very difficult to police NC, however, all of my snooping since she moved out has turned up zilch. She has consistently been where she said she would be, doing what she said she was doing. I am fairly certain that there has been no face-to-face contact, but it is impossible to know for sure about email, phone, etc. Given the current situation, this is about the best I can do. Anyone have any different ideas?

@TB -

You are not in a modified Plan A. You must realize wither she is actually in contact with OM or not does not matter to the extent of policing NC. Her moving out is an indication of contact in of itself. So you must 'stick' the he77 out of it. To really effectively Plan A she must be in the home. I would suggest that somehow you try to get her to do overnights.

This statement is a good sign:


This means that she wants to be in romantic love with you. The Three States of Marriage discusses how to go from Withdrawal to Conflict to Intimacy. To get the above you need to be in Intimacy. Right now she is in withdrawal so get ready, be prepared for conflict. This is the state in which it can be so easy to LB. So be careful!

Do not go dark on anything (this is what Plan B is for). You are in the driver seat of saving your marriage. In order to get into Intimacy you have to meet her ENs. Not meeting her ENs means no $LB deposits.

If you text her something like this in the morning, "On my way to work, just dropped the kids off at school. Funny thing happened at breakfast with the kids...". Turn this into a ritual. Same with the afternoon, "Just got home from picking up the kids. Work sucked! Deciding what to cook for dinner, spaghetti or Top Ramen? Which should I cook?" The evening can be the same, "Finally got the kids to sleep. Some quite time."

Use your knowledge of both of your histories together. Does she like scented candles. The next time she comes over to spend time with the kids, guess what? Scented candles lit.

She won't agree to overnight right now, but I am thinking of inviting her to spend the night on Christmas Eve. That is going to be a tough night for her without the kids. I am familiar with the three stages, and we have actually been in Conflict for a time already- very difficult to avoid LB's. I don't know if you have read my entire thread, but her moving out was preceded by a week-long trip to her sister's in Penn. This was right after full exposure. Prior to this, she had been very defiant and belligerent- a totally different person. Well, since she has returned, that person is gone, and she is mostly back to normal, as far as her attitude and demeanor. She has been somewhat distant when I try to show her affection, but that has improved somewhat over the Thanksgiving weekend. I actually did the candles thing Sunday night. Our home is full of scented candles (placed their by her), and I had them burning for her Sunday night. We just exchanged emails about the kids this afternoon, and she mentioned that she is missing them. This is the first time she has ever mentioned a negative aspect to her moving out. I think we might be making progress.

I'm curious about something. Does your wife work outside of the home? Who is footing the bill for her apartment?

WS does work, and she is footing all of her own bills. I am definitely not financing this in any way. She had worked with me in my business, but went back to a company where she had previously worked when she decided to move out. She has also assumed all of the bills that were in her name (including her car), so her budget will be extremely tight. This has already begun to severely hamper her freewheeling single lifestyle. Things will only get tighter as time goes by. For most of our married life, WS has been a stay-at-home mom, and has been dependent upon me for her EN of financial support.

Maybe it would be a tipping point for her to have to go through Christmas Eve without the kids?

I thought about that, too. I'm a little unsure about what to do here. Any vets want to weigh in?

It needs to be tough on her. That's what separation (by her choice) is. At least let her ask you. But if I were you I would hope she wouldn't. This is part of you not chasing her. You cannot protect her from the consequences of her choices. When you do she learns nothing.

Well, I screwed up Plan A last night. DD was unusually late coming home from work, and I couldn't get an answer on her phone, so I called WS to see if she had heard from her. She said no, so I asked her if she wanted to go with me to look for her. She said "I'm not home right now." (12:45am). I asked where she was, and she said "out with some girlfriends in xxxville." Well, this is the same story she used the first time she met OM for SF, so this was a major trigger for me. I didn't really lose my cool, but I dropped alot of LB's on her about her not being available for the kids, being out this late on a weeknight, need to grow up, etc. (I know, disrepectful judgments.) That was so stupid, but I just couldn't help it. Now it is back to the drawing board on rebuilding the LB$ balance. Plan A is really hard sometimes. I am 50/50 on whether she was really out with girlfriends or with OM. Not much I can do about it either way. (By the way, DD turned out to be fine.)

Out late on a week night.

Living the single life style.

Refusing to help go look for DD.

In the town where OM is.

I buying stock in the red flag company. This affair ain't dead.

I'm sorry this is happening, but there really is no reason for her to have moved out of the marital home other than to continue the affair. A WW doesn't get her own apartment so that she can work on her marriage and try to rebuild her family.

Has your WW talked with the Bishop yet? What is the status on what's going on as far as disciplinary action in the church?

One clarification- not in the town where the OM is. In fact, actually farther away from him than our town. Also, this "going out with the girlfriends" is nothing new. She was doing alot of that even before she moved out (and I followed her on several occasions to verify). I'm not saying I think it's over, I'm just saying it is plausible that she was where she says she was.

She has talked with the Bishop about needing to make an appt. with him, but that appt. has not happened yet, to my knowledge. I have said all along that beginning that process would be a huge step for her.

Its ok you slipped and got mad, don't apologize. Just go right back to the plan. Shes got to know you have the stones to hold her accountable. When this is all over and you are recovered or if this never happened would she not be accountable to you?

I wouldn't sweat the LBs you did, anyone would have. Just stick to the plan now that you're calmed down.

Good advice Reynolds. I texted her this morning to see if she was okay, then called her a few minutes ago to invite her to lunch tomorrow, which she accepted. It just frustrates me that I work so hard to build up the LB$ balance only to make huge withdrawals. I'm just disappointed in myself and my lack of self-control. However this turns out, I will be a better person on the other side of it, with her or without her. I do still love the girl though, so I will keep working. Thanks for your words of encouragement.

@TB -

It is okay to make a mistake. But when you do make a mistake and realize that you did what now? APOLOGIZE! Take responsibility for your LBs and own them. You are in Plan A. Use this mistake to reflect why and what you will do in the present to stop them.

Plan A is not just winning your WS back, but is also part of the process of you growing as a person.

Once again you need to accept that she is not in recovery she is wayward. It matters not wither she is with OM or GFs. At a minimum, it is IB.

IMHO, there is a positive in her doing her thing. It is hastening the day for her to run into financial problems. Financial Support is an EN. Her spending money on her IB is going to cause conflicting desires for her. Pay the rent or go partying. Either way you will benefit. Reality will be hitting the fantasy.

Concerning XMAS, my opinion would be to invite her. You are in Plan A. To me the benefits far outweigh. Do not use Plan A to beat the WS over the head.

How long is your Plan A?

What are you doing to prepare for Plan B? Remember that your children will be the weakest part of your Plan B. Take this into account.

I did actually apologize in my text. I didn't apologize for calling her out on her behavior, but for the way that I did it (DJ's, etc.).

I have no illusion that she is in recovery yet- still very much wayward, possibly in some beginning stages of withdrawal, though. Impossible to tell if she is still in contact, although I have done ALOT of snooping/verification of whereabouts since the move, which has all turned up zilch. She has consistently been exactly where she said she would be, doing exactly what she said she would be doing.

I think you are right about her "doing her thing" hastening the end of the fantasy. Finances will eventually be a problem, which will force her to slow her roll. I am in a much better position to meet that EN than OM, but I won't meet it while we are living apart.

I am planning to go ahead with Christmas plans as if she isn't even around, and wait for her to ask me about it. At that point, I plan to invite her. If she never asks, I will wait until the last minute and then invite her anyway. I agree the benefits outweigh the costs. The children are my biggest influencers here, and they have started to become vocal with her about their unhappiness. My youngest son (10 yrs old)told me that WS called him yesterday. I asked him what he said to her. He says "I told her I miss her and I want her to come back home." I asked what did she say"? He said, "She said she would try." He is mommy's baby, so I'm sure that was a very uncomfortable conversation for WS.

I am going to try to hold out in Plan A for as long as I can. I think I can do it for the full 6 mos., unless her IB escalates. As it is going right now, I think I can hold out.

Plan B is going to suck, mostly because of the kids, but also because our lives are so intertwined (both families are close, lots of relatives on both sides nearby, we go to church together, etc.). I am really not prepared at all for Plan B at this time. I have alot of work to do to get ready for that.

I have a great idea. From now on lets put your son in charge. Every WS who wants to have an affair has to ask their child first. Every person who wants to have an affair with a married person has to clear it with the kids in the family being torn up.

Why is it your 10 year old is wiser than you or me or our WWs?

Sorry when I read this last post I thought of what my 2 year old would think of this. Its always been part of my motivation that when hes twenty five he is both proud of what I did and never has to do this himself.

If you or anyone else is having a tough time, theres all the strength you'll ever need - right there. Everybody always says they would go through hell for their kids. Some of us get the priviledge.

So true.

Okay, need some advice. Tonight, the kids and I have planned to do the Christmas decorations inside the house. This has always been WS' area, and she is into it bigtime. My first instict is to carry on without her, and let her see the next time she comes over. Option B is to let her know that we are doing it and tell her she is welcome to join us if she wants. Part of me wants her to experience missing out on some of our holiday tradtions, while realizing that we are carrying on with them in her absence. Again, the decorating has always been a big deal for her. Perhaps we can help create some of that "sense of longing" she keeps talking about? What do you think?

If this is something she's always been in charge of, she'll already be feeling that sense of longing.

You've already told her the door is open to return to the marriage, right? I think you should leave it at that. If she returns to the marriage she gets to enjoy all the festivities with her family.

There has to be a point where you stop inviting her to everything. I can envision a life for you, where she comes and goes by your invitation for all of the high holidays and events, and never has to experience loss. Why would she? She's not losing anything.

I would suggest you gather the trimmings and the kids, and really do a bang-up job with the house. If she happens to be there at some point over the holidays, you could point out a decoration and say something like "I'm glad you're seeing this one. The kids were excited to see what you would think of the job they did decorating it."

Let her conscience be her guide.

TD,

Just a thought. She knows the decorations will go up. She knows your phone number. She knows the kids will be into it. She knows she can call you and see if you need "help".

Her silence, her missing this is HER choice. Let her live with the consequences of her choice. If she calls and asks, invite her, otherwise she misses out.

Just my thought.

JL

Thanks for the input. I am going to continue with my plans to leave her out of this. She doesn't really know we are doing this tonight, unless one of the kids has told her. However, I agree with maritalbliss, she needs to experience some loss. We're going to have a good time, and I am extra motivated to do this up right.

I have found that take-out pizza is always a great decorating tradition for kids

@TB -

@MB is right to a certain degree:


except you are in Plan A. If you think this will be a huge $LB then I would extend the invitation. You did mention you did some LB just this morning.

I could be wrong. Only you can decide this. You know your WS more than anybody else.

IMHO, Plan A is not about the WS experiencing loss.

Went ahead with the holiday decorating last night with the kids. Had a great time. We have a small decoration of four elves with the letters N-O-E-L, one on each elf. Several years ago, we arranged them backwards, to spell LEON, took a photo, and sent that out as our Christmas card. Ever since then, we have always arranged them that way, and wait for visitors to point it out to us. It's a little inside family joke. DD took a picture of that last night and sent to WS. We also took a picture of the Christmas tree. She responded back to both msgs. She came to pickup DD for school this morning, and was in a foul mood. She has accepted my invitation for lunch today, so we'll see how that goes. I need to give myself a "no LB's" pep talk before I go. I am still trying to make LB deposits, but I am finally realizing that she is going to do what she is going to do, and I can't really do anything about it. All I can do is be the best father I can be to these children, and become the best husband that I can be, for her if she chooses to join me, or for someone else if she doesn't.

td, how long have you been inviting WW to things? How many invitations would you say you have given her?

Hey I am a newbie here too, but chin up when you meet with her.

She is going to have to deal with her own issues beyond plan A. You can't solve her issues if shes mad because she wasn't there, well that isn't on you.

She chose to marry you, to have kids, and then to cheat. Plan A talks about letting the weight of the decision fall on the cheating spouse. you did that, don't apologize for it and no love busters.

Good luck

WS has been moved out for about 3 weeks now, and we typically get together once a week or so for lunch or dinner, talk about the kids, etc.

Just got off the phone with WS. Apparently the full weight of her new financial predicament is starting to hit her. Also, she is pressing for more time with the kids. I knew this would happen as soon as the new wore off of her single life.

What is your current "custody" agreement? Do the kids live with you and just visit her, or are they bouncing between the two homes?

Clark, I have to respectfully disagree. Part of Plan A is the Carrot. WW needs to feel the 'Stick' part as well. Part of the Stick is for the wayward to see and feel the consequences of their affair.

Part of the consequence of td's WW affair is that she is no longer enjoying the warmth of her home and family. She is a visitor to her former marital home. She is a part-time mommy to her children. This woman was previously a SAHM, which IMHO makes the loss that much more relevent. Not only has she lost her marital home and the full-time enjoyment of her children, she has lost her past identity. I believe she's feeling enormous loss at this point, and that is all because of her affair.

I think td should take advantage of her feelings of loss, and he's doing a good job of that.

Kids live with me full-time, visit her. I wouldn't agree to the bouncing back and forth thing, and she didn't fight me on it.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. She just sent me an email, let me know that she was upset about the Christmas decoration pictures- said it is still bothering her today. Also wants to find a way to spend more time with the kids. Cancelled our lunch plans for today- said she is too emotional right now. Carrot & the stick.

Okay, is she paying any sort of child support? Are there daycare or transportation costs that she is contributing to? Because these are going to be a part of her financial reality if she chooses not to return to the marital home. She needs to start realizing the full implications of what she is doing.

It's good that you got your wife to leave without the children. At least now, if she chooses not to return, you will have a good case for abandonment, and your chances of getting full custody will be much greater.

This is very good. Be very kind to her right now.
"WW, I am so sorry you are missing this holiday with us. I hope you would reconsider your path and would come back home to your family."
Leave unsaid the conditions. She already knows your conditions. Be firm if she tries to negotiate those, and she may well try. NC is non-negotiable.

She is not paying child support. No daycare- kids are all in school. I have not pushed these issues because I am not trying to talk divorce right now, and going from what she had to what she has now, she is about to experience more reality than she can handle. Between the abandonment and the adultery, I think I have a better than even chance at full custody, but I hope it never comes to that.

@TB -

Does it feel better to be in the driver seat?

Doesn't having a plan feel better than what you had before?

Hang Tough!

Already working on that, just as you described. Should be a great opportunity for major LB$ deposits. Wish me luck.

Work the plan with no expectations- that's the only way it will work.

Had a brief face-to-face with WS last night when she came to pickup the kids. She was very emotional, tearful, missing the kids. Holidays are going to be tough for her. I told her I am sorry that you are missing these events in our kids lives, but you can rejoin them at anytime by moving back home. She said, "I know, I'm just not ready yet." I told her that I wanted her to know that she had a safe place to land here, in our home. I also told her that if she ever decided that she had made a mistake and wanted to come back home, I didn't want her to feel that she needed to stay away for some length of time because of embarrassment about moving out, what people may think, etc. The only people who matter right now are you, me and our children. Whenever you are ready to make that commitment, I am ready to pack you up and move you back home. I need my wife, and our babies need their mother. She tearfully replied, "I know, and I am really trying." Of course their will be firm boundaries, and she knows this, but I didn't feel that this was the time to bring that up.

I appreciate that she's feeling emotional right now, but I'm missing the part where she's 'really trying.' I don't see her trying to do anything but cake-eat.
Don't let her tears dissuade you, td. (And I know they won't - you're doing great.)

This is all very good. After she leaves you and the kids she has to go back to her apartment alone and think. At this point, she will more than likely be in contact with OM in order to fill the empty spot. Here's the good thing: OM can't fill the EN she's missing right now. He doesn't possess that ability. All he can do is talk sweet to her. That's not going to get it for your WW.

Let Plan A keep working.

Just a word of caution:

If you don�t have a legal separation agreement in place, then she can legally take the kids into her apartment without your approval.

I recommend you consult a lawyer and draft custody papers just in case. Slam her with them if she takes the kids when she is done �trying.�

I agree that she�s trying to eat cake. She wants both lives and is torn between OM and her family. Well, OM looks pretty bleak right now because her kids are missing. Don�t think it won�t cross her mind to take the kids without your approval.

I know you're right about the cake-eating, but nothing I can do about that. I have established my boundaries, and I am enforcing them. You're absolutely right about his inability to fill this EN. He also can't fill her EN of financial support either, and that is about to become a major issue for her. In the last few days, I have actually sensed some very serious withdrawal form her, almost to the point of mourning. The last time I saw these same behaviors from her was the last time that she made a serious break with him, at which point he told her to fish or cut bait, he was tired of waiting for her to make up her mind. It is possible (just possible)that this has happened again. It's hard to say, but I can't let any of that affect what I am doing. Work the plan with no expectations, work the plan with no expectations,......... (this is my mantra).

Already met with attny before she left. All ducks are straight in a row. Attny says situation couldn't be better if it comes to D- A takes alimony off the table and abandonment puts me in a great position for full custody. I would be very surprised if she did anything with the kids. Other than her waywardness, she is a wonderful person. I just don't think it's in her nature. I am prepared though, thanks for the advice.

Am going through this now myself. Recently discovered WW having an PA with a coworker.

Action points:

1) She told me about the affair, (though I suspected something for a long time,) while hospitalized for suicidal thoughts.

2) Once informed, I asked her to write a letter to OM and his wife as well as her manager since this was a coworker.

3) Discovered her secret email account, viewed emails, and had her delete account.

4) Monitor her cell phone

5) We play hard, read together, and do family devotions

6) Pastors at our church were informed

7) Our intamacy is growing leaps and bounds... I take every moment I get to compliment her or just give her an encouraging word (This is key as she was on the brink of suicide and very depressed from the affair.)

8) Have discussed work options to include her changing jobs or working from home. (This has not been a process started yet and has me very concerned.)

My only question here now is how do I monitor what she does at work, i.e. her work computer. This is where she did all her emailing and contact with OM.

She has told her therapist, "This is not my first affair, but it had better be my last one."

Brian,
Sorry you find yourself here, but you are at the right place. Some of the veterans will be along soon- listen to everything they say. Question- does OM still work with your wife? If so, she will need to find other employment. Complete no contact is critical. My best advice to you is this: expose this affair to everyone you can think of. If I had known about MB in the beginning, and had done a complete exposure when my WS' affair was still just emotional, I feel very confident that I could have stopped it in its tracks. Even now, complete exposure is the only thing that has done anything to derail the affair. I was very reluctant to do it, and my WS was furious (she still is), but if I could do it again, I would only have done it sooner. The two best pieces of advice I have received here are these: (1) Complete, nuclear exposure, as soon as possible. (2) Have absolutely no expectations from your WS during Plan A/Plan B. That is not to say don't set boundaries and enforce them, but don't expect your WS to reciprocate your acts of kindness, to be thankful for them, or even to acknowledge them. (In fact, she will very likely resent them at some point.) Just keep working the plan with no expectations. Expectations are a killer.

Total, I would love it if you tweeked your mantra just a tad by saying, "I will stick to MY plan NO MATTER WHAT." This implies no expectations during your Plan A.

Good advice Scotty. Expectations during Plan A equals absolute torture. I know this because it has taken me awhile to figure it out. Thanks for your help.

I think I have finally pulled off a perfect day of Plan A. WS came over to p/u kids today. We had an excellent discussion about our relationship. I told her that although I could not accept responsibility for the A, I do accept responsibility for not meeting all of her needs. I had given her my copy of HN/HN, and she has started reading it. I told her that this book has changed my life, and the changes are permanent, regardless of what happens with us. I told her that I would like to have the opportunity to show her what our new life together could be. She invited me to eat dinner with her and the kids. This is the first time she has invited me to do anything. We had a nice afternoon together with the kids. Plan A'd my butt off, with absolutely zero LB's. I think the LB$ balance is beginning to grow again. I actually sensed some feelings of genuine affection from her. I can see that she is beginning to become increasingly conflicted about her choices. No expectations- work the plan, no matter what.

Sounds good Total. Did you have FUN? Did you share some laughs with your WW?

Could you write an email once a day or so with a remember when, or thinking about you type thing? As I was told during Plan A, you will take over some spots in your WW's mind so that OM isn't in there as much. You need it to be good though, okay? Keep it LIGHT.

I am very encouraged for you, td! Keep it up!

I did have fun- kept it light, and yes we shared some laughs. Interestingly, we drove past one of the first houses we lived in- DD11 commented on the Christmas decorations. WS said "did you know we used to live there?" I said, "yes, your sister was born while we lived there. That house is where we had our first nursery. WS, remember the carousel horses that you hand-painted on the walls?" WS said "yes, we had a lot of good times there." Again, this admitting to/discussion of actual good times in our M is something new. Previously it has been only the negative.

Good idea about the email. I do try to fit something like that in each day, but I need to work harder to make sure it is something meaningful.

What your doing is working. Good job.

Another good Plan A day, so far. WS came by on the way to church with DD11 + DS10, because they had forgotten various articles of clothing. I suggested that we all ride together, and WS agreed. We sat together as a family in church, and WS and I sat together during Sunday School. I was extra careful to be sweet and cmplimentary, no LB's- real or perceived. When she dropped us off, I said "the kids and I are going to make hot chocolate and watch the Christmas Devotional tonight @ 8. We would love it if you would join us." She said she would think about it. So, kids and I have Christmas lights on, candles lit, and hot chocolate ready. Will she come- who knows? We're doing our thing anyway. No expectations.

Well, WS didn't show up, but that's okay- kids and I had a great time anyway. Sent her my nightly "sweet dreams" text, and didn't even mention it. Told her she looked pretty at church today, sweet dreams. She immediately texted back "thank you, good night". My goal now is one full week of stellar Plan A, with no LB's. Work the plan, no matter what- no expectations.

I agree with the emails. I have started either emailing, texting, or even, (say it isn't so...) actually writing a note to my WW everyday. I know she enjoys the affection, and it shows in our relationship. Keep it up!

Total, that is GREAT. You are doing AWESOME. Keep it up.

Great job on sliding in some good memories about the family. Those are things that the OM can NEVER take away from you. Your WW may become more conflicted with what you are doing, but your goal is just to learn how to become the best spouse that you can be.

I am glad that you went through with your plans even though your WW didn't come over. That is a good thing. GREAT WORK.

I think the increase in internal conflict is already happening. We went to lunch together today, (this is the first time she has accepted my lunch invitation), and everything went great. No LB's. I told her how beautiful she looked (she really is stunning). I pointed out how all of the mens' heads were turning when she went to the salad bar. (Admiration is one of her top EN's, plus she now has the typical WS narcissistic streak.) We had a nice conversation, but she seemed uncomfortable. Yesterday and today she has been increasingly "standoffish". What I mean by that is, normally we would hug or even kiss hello and goodbye, but yesterday and today she has gone out of her way to make sure that we don't. I'm not quite sure how to interpret that. Sometimes I think she is trying to bait me into some LB's, to make herself feel better about what she is doing. I have taken that bait in the past, but not anymore. Working the plan.

There is a very good chance that she is still in contact with the OM and still involved in the A.

When I had my A, the more involved I became with the OM, the more I distanced myself from my H, because having any sort of affectionate or intimate contact with him made me feel as though I was being disloyal to the OM. I know, , but that's how I felt at the time.

It's very conflicting for a woman to have feelings for more than one man at a time. We're not biologically programmed like that.

I have no illusions that she is not in contact with OM, even though she swears she isn't. I am working under the assumption that she is. In the past, I have let that alter my Plan A activities, but not anymore. The more of this internal conflict I can create, the better. There are several of her EN's that he is unable to meet: family commitment, domestic support, and financial support. She is really missing her kids right now, and she is beginning to get in a serious financial bind. I am concentrating on her top EN's which he does meet: affection, admiration and conversation. I can't do anything about SF right now, so I'm not worrying about that. I have finally learned that I have to work my plan, regardless of what she does. No expectations, that's the key. It does help tremendously to come here and get a good pep talk, though.

This is exactly what you need to do. Keep it up, TD. I suspect that the lack of her children is incredibly difficult for her right now. And there is NO WAY OM can meet that need.

I realize that my children are the most important thing that I have going for me right now. WS has always been a wonderful mom, completely devoted to her kids. That is part of what makes this whole situation so unbelievable. I asked her Saturday if she would like to come over and spend the night Christmas Eve here in OUR HOME, so that she could be here with the children on Christmas morning. I told her that she didn't need to answer right now, but just think about it. No pressure, and if she decided against it, of course she is still welcome to join us on Christmas morning. I didn't mention any of this to the kids. Last night, DD11 said, "Mommy said she might spend the night here at home on Christmas Eve." I asked "when did she tell you that?" Yesterday morning before church. Needless to say, that surprised me. WS, of course, hasn't mentioned that to me. So, I am seeing little glimmers of hope, among the mountains of discouragement. I guess what I'm learning is that this takes a tremendous amount of discipline to execute properly.

I suspect she will not stay overnight - OM will see to that. But she will be there Christmas Day, and that's huge. Not because she'll be there, but because she'll have to drive away afterward. I'm crossing my fingers for you that this will be the beginning of a turning point.

One side note- WS told me at lunch that her mom is coming over to visit her tonight, and wanted to know if the kids could come. I said of course. This will be the first time that she has had a real, face-to-face conversation with her mom since I exposed. I have talked with MIL weekly, and she is firmly in support of the marriage. WS and her mom are very close, so this could be BIG. MIL told me that she was going to be somewhat delicate during this first meeting, but that she would be dispensing some "mom advice". I will be very interested to hear how that goes, and to see if WS even talks to me about it. MIL & FIL have been very supportive of me and the kids, especially helpful with domestic issues, taking kids places, etc. They are both distraught at the choices their daughter is making. FIL is not really handling it well (he has hardly spoken to WS), but MIL has really reached out to her in love, without condoning the A. I am hopeful that this will continue the effects of exposure, which is the only thing that has really made WS make any sort of decision at all.

You may be right about overnight, but I'm not so sure. She has really put the pressure on herself by mentioning it to the kids. They will not let her forget it, and when she said "I might", they heard "I will", which means they will be severely disappointed if she backs out. That, of course, means that it will be even more emotionally taxing for her. I had no expectation that she would even entertain the idea, so I am elated that she is even considering it, whether she does or she doesn't. It just demonstrates to me the incredible amount of inner conflict she must be feeling. I really feel sorry for her.

I agree - she's got herself in a spot. I think she may have told them that just to give them something positive to hang on to, without considering the fallout.
But this is good. I don't feel sorry for her, but I think it's very considerate of you to do so. I'm rooting for her, though - I think she's probably in a lot of turmoil right now, and there are a lot of good things that can come from that.

So do I, because I have been in her shoes and it sucks. Having an A is a very painful and conflicting experience. Yes, a lot of people will point out that it is self-inflicted pain, but I think this actually makes it worse. On some level, I was aware of the pain I was causing myself and everyone else even during my A, but I just didn't know how to stop it. A's have their own momentum, and it's very difficult for the foggy wayward mind to figure out how to get off the roller coaster.

For what it's worth, I think you're doing a fabulous Plan A. I really admire your composure throughout all of this. You're doing a great job. Keep it up.

Writer1- Thank you so much for following my thread and sharing your insight. It is so helpful to me to hear from FWS. It is so difficult to understand what she must be thinking and feeling, and it is hardly ever logical or intuitive, so hearing from others is extremely helpful. I am still deeply in love with my wife, and it causes me incredible pain to see the pain that she is in, and to imagine the pain that I can't see. I know that it is self-inflicted, but I just have alot of compassion and empathy for her. I don't have as much composure as you might think- every day includes tears for me now, but not as many as before, and not for some of the same reasons. I am just determined to fight for my marriage, my children, and my family for as long as it takes. I told my wife I am willing to do whatever it takes, for as long as it takes. I need, no I MUST be sure that I have done everything in my power to save our marriage and restore our family. She has a right to choose, and I can't take that away from her. That doesn't mean I have to make it easy for her. If she decides to walk away from us, I want it to be the hardest decision of her life.

Total: You remind me a lot of my H. It really was his love and his unwavering desire to love me no matter what and not give up on me that eventually brought me back. I spent 6 months insisting that our M was over, all the while carrying on with the OM, and he continued to love me. I know how painful that time must have been for him, but it did pay off. I did finally see come to understand the depth of his love for me and his commitment to our M and family, and once I realized that, I knew I couldn't just walk away.

The road to recovery is very long, but I think it is a road worth traveling.

You have no idea how much I needed to hear that. My wife is a people pleaser, and I am a problem-solver. One of her complaints with me is that I am controlling (although she never mentioned this until the A). We have talked about it some lately, and I have told her that I have never intentionally tried to control her, but I do try to control situations. It is in my nature to identify problems, find solutions, fix the problems, and plan for any possible contingencies. Part of this is due to my career (formerly in quality control and logistics). So, this whole process has been very difficult for me, in that it is hard to continue the process without seeing any measurable results, and it is very difficult not to try to analyze every word, action, facial expression, body language, etc. I also have a tendency to want things fixed right now, and I have come to realize that we are very early in this process, and I have to think in terms of months, not days or weeks. I have tremendous faith in the MB principles. I don't think I have ever read anything, outside of scripture, that just rang so true to me the instant I read it. That, coupled with the fact that so many of the cases that I read here sound exactly like my WS, right down to the exact words that she uses. Stories like yours are what give me the hope and strength that I need to keep up the fight. Thank you for your support.

TD, these are qualities that a lot of women would love for their H's to have. I would like to think that your WW is bringing them up now as a 'reason' for her A.

Think about it. Think about a truly 'controlling' person. What would they do?
"We're not leaving for church until I say we're leaving!"
"You are NOT ALLOWED to wear that outfit! I FORBID IT!"
"I don't CARE if you like pasta! When I was growing up it was never served in our house, so you are NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE IT!"

Now, THAT'S controlling. (Especially the pasta part - I'd kick my H's butt if he tried to deprive me of my favorite food! )

But you get my idea. She is casting about, looking for justification. She is wayward. Some of your best qualities could be ammo for her. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have those qualities.

Total, a lot of the times that people use the "controlling" word to describe their spouse, it is a manipulation and an attempt to get their own way. That way, when you say "No" you just proved how controlling you ARE.

TD,

The "controlling" issue has always intrigued me. If you were truly controlling, then she would not be doing what she is doing right?

If you were not good at controlling, then maybe she would do what she is doing, but really could not argue that you did/could/would control her because you were not any good at it, right?

This particular conundrum has always puzzled me, but as others have said, they are just grasping at straws to justify what they are doing.

Just confusing thoughts from JL, read at your own risk.

JL

The funny thing about that is my wife is not the type of person to be controlled by anyone. She can take care of herself, and she gives as good as she gets. We were always proud of the way we gave each other complete trust and freedom, when so many of our other married friends had to know each other's every move. Sadly ironic that this very trusting nature allowed this A to take place. As someone said, if I am controlling, I'm not very good at it.

MIL reported that she had a good visit with WS & kids last night. Was only able to talk privately for a few minutes, but said it went well. The reality of WS' financial predicament continues to come into focus for her. DD11 has a sinus infection, so WS took her to the doctor this morning, then dropped her by my office, so I good take her home. She was very cordial, and even gave me a kiss good-bye, so affection seems to be back to normal after being very closed off yesterday. We will be going together to DS10's choral concert tonight, so more opportunities for LB$ deposits.

Keep up the good work and remember to let exposure do it's thing. If MIL wants to rip into WW, let her. I have handed out my WH's number and email addy and even sent OW's number and email too, to all of my friends and family. I dunno if anyone has sent them anything, because I am in Plan B, but I did it anyways.

Oh, I have no intentions to interfere with anyone's reaction to exposure. MIL is not someone who would be interfered with anyway. She told me that she wanted to give her a gentle nudge this time, but the day of reckoning is definitely coming.

Glad to hear it. It always makes me smile when I hear that a MIL will sand up to their cheating offspring. Believe me, if I ever heard that one of my boys were having an A, they wouldn't be able to run far enough away. Big ol pat on MIL's back.

MIL is 100% in support of our marriage and 100% against the A. She and FIL have both said that WS cannot come and live with them, nor will they give her any $ to support her moving out. That is good, because that is about to be a very big issue for her. The only other sources of $ are her sister in PA and OM. Sister is currently financially strapped, and told WS that she was only supporting the move based on her assertion that the A is over. She told her that if she found out she was still in contact with OM, she would "wash her hands" of this situation, meaning withhold any more support, financial or otherwise. This is significant, because WS cell phone is on her sister's plan, so she has the ability to monitor it. OM is in no position to give any financial support, as he is a loser, and is basically destitute. If she goes to him for $, I expect that to cause major conflict. MIL is one tough cookie, grew up with an abusive, alcoholic father, who basically disowned her over her religion. She's as tough as they come.

UHUHUH. You EXPECT that your WW will go to OM and he will falter. EXPECTATIONS ARE BAD.

HOORAY FOR MIL.

Please don't speculate on what other people may or may not do. You have no control over that. MIL/FIL may waiver and allow WW to stay there "for one month" or whatever. Sister, to me, didn't step up to the plate. She should never have agreed that moving out was a good idea in the first place. OM? You don't know what his actions will be.

Don't spend energy on pondering what-ifs, okay? Just stick with a plan that appears to be working.

Of course you're right, MB. Expectations, especially about others' actions/reactions, are a recipe for disappointment. I agree about SIL, she definitely contributed to the move-out. She is very big on WS being independent. As far as FIL and MIL go, their total lack of support for a wayward would be consistent with their past behavior relative to their other kids in similar circumstances. You never know though, so your point is well taken. None of this can affect my working the plan. Thanks for your input.

WS and I sat together at DS10's concert tonight. Again, she was very warm and cordial. I resisted my impulse to hold her hand or put my arm around her during the concert. Afterward, as we were talking with some friends, she leaned in and gave me a very affectionate hug. (First time she has initiated such contact in awhile, especially out in public.) We had talked about grabbing a bite to eat w/ the kids, but WS is coming down with something. Asked her if we could bring her something, she said "if you don't mind". Grabbed some Chinese food and picked up some cold meds and a big jug of her favorite OJ. DD15 and I dropped it at her house- another affectionate hug and a kiss on the cheek. And the LB$ balance continues to grow......

Total, you seem to be catching onto this Plan A stuff real nicely.

Thanks, Scotty. It's taken me long enough to figure it out.

Maybe that's another reason why BH's have 6 months for Plan A, it's the learning curve.

Okay OKAY. I was only KIDDING.

You ARE wielding a stick in your Plan A as well thought right? Just make sure you don't do a full carrot with no stick or it could cross the line into Plan Doormat. Just when you thought you were getting it(and you ARE) I throw you a curve ball.

Good point. Wielding the stick by allowing the weight of WS' choices to fall squarely on her shoulders. Financial difficulties, missing the kids, missing out on holiday stuff. We are carrying on with our lives. Trying to back off on contact a little, not in pursuit, then being careful to avoid LB's when in contact. Also, letting her know when something she does or says is hurtful, but in a respectful and non-judgmental way. It is very difficult to balance the carrot and the stick, and all of this being good to her is natural and normal for me anyway, so I am always in danger of Plan Doormat. I am open to suggestions.

Talking to DD18 tonight when she came home from work. She said "I feel like my mom is dead." Heartbreaking.

It IS heartbreaking and at the same time, SPOT ON. Waywards are but a shell of themselves. To everyone who loves them, they are a different person. Hug that DD18 and let her know that you understand.

Sounds like you have a good grasp on Plan A. Keep it going.

Truer words have never been spoken- she is a shell of her former self, and I wonder if she'll ever be back. DD18 is very perceptive. She says WS is acting just like a middle-school teenager- self-absorbed, obsessed with appearance and what others think of them, unable to think two steps ahead, thinking only of themselves. This is such a 180, and so totally out of character for WS, that it is quite shocking to watch.

Just got a nice thank you note email from WS for bringing her the medicine & OJ last night. Wow, I almost fainted. The expressions of gratitude have been almost non-existent since all of this started. Do I sense a crack in the wall that she has erected between us? Who knows, but it feels good to be appreciated just the same. No expectations, just enjoying the moment.

TD,

How is your 18 yr old doing? Is she handling all of this well or does she need some guidance?

JL

She is handling it reasonably well, but she is somewhat bitter. She says she is not bitter about the A, but about the way WS treats her now. She is not getting the attention she needs, obviously, because WS is not living with us. When she does visit with her, she wants to unload all of her 18-yo problems on WS, and WS is very inwardly-focused, so she doesn't want to hear all of that. DD18 says she feels like WS thinks she is in competition with her. Those two have always clashed, but it is much worse now. DD18 is trying to act as if it doesn't bother her, but she may actually be taking things harder than her younger siblings. She and I have always been quite close though, and I spend a tremendous amount of time listening to her. WS questions all of the kids to find out what I am saying to them. She is under the impression that I am plotting to "turn them against her". Nothing could be further from the truth. I have expressed to WS on more than one occasion that she is not the enemy here. The A is the enemy, and I will do anything and everything within my power to kill the A.

Bingo!

It's her choices and actions costing her. Nothing that you do.


If you don't want your friends and family to know that you are a slimy, selfish cheater... well, then don't be a slimy, selfish cheater!

Quiet couple of days- not much interaction with WS. Going to church Christmas party together tomorrow night. I did send her a funny picture yesterday and she commented that it was hard to laugh because she was feeling kind of down. (Withdrawal? Missing kids? Reality setting in?) Who knows? I do know that she is really unhappy about not being able to be at home with DD11 while she is home sick. She was a SAHM for many years, and then worked with me part-time, so she is accustomed to always being home to take care of her babies when they are not feeling well. I went home and checked on DD11 yesterday. She was looking kind of puny, so I took a picture of her with my phone and emailed it to WS at work. She emailed me back, "Please give her hugs & kisses for me." (I'm thinking, if you would pull your head out, you could be at home with her right now.)My best hope is that her love for the kids will eventually cut thru the fog. Meanwhile, full-throttle Plan A.

Remember Total, it is all about the pebbles being thrown into the stream. You might not see it, but as they begin to stack on top of each other they get closer to the surface. Let the pebbles keep building up and don't think about them.

I've read the analogy of the rocks in the stream before, and I love it. It really does describe exactly how it is.

Another thing that I constantly tell myself when I start to wonder is, "I may not win every battle but I WILL win the WAR." Doesn't mean I will end up with a recovered marriage but "I" WILL be recovered.

I like that- it's not about the battles, it's about the war. I have been keeping myself busy with an exhaustive list of home improvement projects. I say I am fixing up the house for my new wife, whether that is WS or someone else. I even told that one to MIL. She laughed and said "that's right".

TD, I just got back to my PC, but sounds like you are having some progress in the right direction. Good to hear it man, keep it going!

Think about that statement.

She don't know what she's giving up, brother.

Thanks for all of the support. It is an absolute lifesaver to be able to come here and share this, as no one who hasn't been here can truly understand.

WS and I will be taking the kids to the Christmas party at church tonight. Should be some good opportunities for LB$ deposits.

WS was asked to make stuffing and a dessert for the party, and she asked me, half-jokingly, if I would like to help her out with the dessert. "You can just buy something pre-made to take", she says. I say, "Of course I'll take care of it, don't even worry about it." Yesterday afternoon she calls and asks me if I remembered to pick up a dessert for the party. I said, "Oh yeah, the kids and I are going to make Christmas cupcakes tonight. I may call you if I get into trouble." She laughed.

So last night, DS10, DD11 and I make the cupcakes. WS calls to talk to the kids around bedtime. I talk to her briefly and say, "I've got to frost all of these cupcakes." She says, yeah, I've got to make my stuffing, too." So, right before bed, I took a picture of the completed cupcakes, emailed it to her with a message- "Cupcakes frosted, mission completed, sweet dreams." Another example of something that we would be doing together with the kids under normal circumstances. Baking with the kids is one of her favorite pastimes. I hope she is realizing all of the experiences that she is missing out on.

TD, you're my official Poster Boy For Plan A.

I've been thinking this for awhile.

And she's definitely feeling the pain of everything she's missing out on right now. I've been a mom long enough to assure you of that.

Keep up the good work and enjoy the Christmas party!

How perfect is that? Good job!

@TD -

You are the bomb!

Doing my best, but it's not easy. I have to keep telling myself: "No expectations, no expectations." Sometimes I catch myself wondering if it is worth it, but one look at any of my children tells me that it is. Also, as amazing as it is, I am still deeply in love with my wife. I was talking to one of our mutual friends who has moved to another town. She said, "You are a much better person than I am. I have always said that if my H ever did something like this, he would be out on his butt." I said, "Friend, I used to think that too. You just don't know until it happens to you."

Total, ain't that the truth. It helped me at the beginning to have some people saying those same things to me.

You are doing SUPER GREAT. Keep it up.

Thanks, Scotty. We have the Christmas party tonight with the kids, then we are going to do the Santa Claus shopping tomorrow. Lots of opportunities for LB$ deposits, but also plenty of opportunities for LB's. That's why I come here to get a little pep talk. Must avoid LB's at all costs. No expectations- work the plan, regardless of response, or lack thereof. Wish me luck.

Sometimes we forget that this life is difficult by design. We do all we can do to make it easier, less stressful, but it doesn't always work.

We often say (as Christians) that Jesus is our example, and we try to be like him.

Remember what he said..........
John 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Matthew 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.


Our Job is to follow his example. He gives us further advice on it.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


You have your work cut out for you. You get to do the right thing, no matter what she does. You get to find out what you are made of. It will be (and probably already has been) revealing TO YOU. Remember that for you, this whole experience is about how you react, and what you do. For you, it's not about her, or what she does at all.

Sometimes our greatest trials are our greatest opportunities. Some of the best teaching moments of your life (as far as your children are concerned) may come out of this. If we teach best by example, it will probably be true.

There have been a number of posts on MB about being a light house. It is a good analogy. The light house is often battered by the storm in the worst way, but still does it's job, and does it well. What a service it provides.

You have that same opportunity for your family. God won't let you fail if you keep your heart centered in him, and if you do the best you can do. You will get help. I am sure you know that by now, however, it helps to have a review from time to time.

I think you are on the right track. When you pray, you should FEEL the help. You know what those positive feelings mean. God doesn't make mistakes. If you need more than that, he will provide it. Count on help when you need it. It doesn't always come in the way WE expect, or on our time line, but it will come. Do your best, and then confide in him, and trust him.

That doesn't mean you will quit worrying, or that you will relax, and every thing will feel wonderful. It means in your private moments, you will know he is happy with you, and that you and the kids will be fine no matter what.

Merry Christmas M, with all that that statement means.

SS

Well, the weekend went reasonably well. I took a little roller coaster ride Saturday night, but other than that, I was very pleased.

Went to the Christmas party Friday night together as a family. WS was acting very much like her old self. Several of her friends mentioned to me in private- "Wow, she's acting normal." WS wanted to let the kids spend the night with her, so we ended up back at the house for a visit while kids got their things together.

Saturday, WS, DD15 and myself headed out to do some Christmas shopping. We had a great day together, other than WS was having some stomach issues. I seized the opportunity to take care of her, by suggesting that I run out and get her some meds while she and DD15 continue shopping. She had told me previously that she was going out to dinner with her friend. After an afternoon of stomach problems, she said she didn't know if she was going or not. I told her that the kids and I were going to make homemade pizza and watch a movie, so if she decided not to go out, she was welcome to come over and hang out with us. She says, "Maybe, I'll let you know."

Now for the roller coaster: The friend that she was going to dinner with was her divorced friend who has been an enabler to the A. She has had very little contact with her of late, so I was a little disappointed at this development. Also, she has used her as a cover for meeting with OM in the past, so naturally this triggered all sorts of thoughts and emotions. So, maybe she was going out with her friend, or maybe she was meeting OM.

Normally, this would result in an interrogation from me: where are you going, who are you going with, what will you be doing, etc. I got the feeling that she laid this out there for me as sort of a test. She is living on her own now, so I have no way of knowing what she is doing, and I would have never known what she was up to. I decided to just leave it completely alone. She says, I'm going to dinner with "friend" tonight, is that okay? I say, sure. It was all I could do to prevent myself from (a) asking lots of questions, or (b) making snide comments. (Definite LB's).

Well, I was able to resist, and we had a wonderful afternoon. DD11, DS10 and I made the pizza as planned. We sent some pictures of the process to WS. We watched our movie and had a nice evening together. I, however, was really down, wondering where she was, what she was doing, and who she was with. Rough night. I did send her my usual goodnight text, but not until fairly late. Normally, if she is out with friends, she will ignore me. To my great surprise, she answered almost immediately.

Sunday am, she showed up at church, and she looked great. This was encouraging, because I thought she may not show up, or she may be showing signs of wear if she had a big night out. We sat together at church, and she was visibly moved to tears during parts of the service. One of the hymns was about forgiveness. It includes a line, "I marvel that He would descend from His throne divine, to rescue a soul so rebellious and proud as mine." She was very emotional during that song. I put my arm around her and gave her a hug, and we held hands off and on throughout the rest of the service.

Last night, she asked if she could come over for a visit. (This was new- normally I invite, and she says "We'll see".) I said sure. She came over and we made hot chocolate and watched Shrek with the kids. She and I sat on the couch together, and for 2-3 hours, all was right in my world. Sitting with my wife beside me, surrounded by my children, house decorated for Christmas........it was all I could do to contain my tears.

What was she doing Saturday night? I don't know. I do know that her internal conflict is raging. The younger kids are becoming more clingy with her when she visits, and are becoming more vocal in their desire for her to return home. Meanwhile, I am trying to show her what our life can be like, if she will only give it a chance.

WOW!

That is all I can say. You are doing tremendously good things.

The roller coaster is to be expected. Hopefully when you get to recovery all the truth will come out. I too have the same thoughts. What are they doing?

As you've already surmised, she is still in limbo. Your ACTIONS do appear to be breaking through the fog. It probably doesn't matter what they are doing. What matters is what you're doing. And what you are doing is fantastic!

I'm in your corner rooting for your personal recovery totaldisbelief.

I tihnk you could have been a bit more honest about how you were feeling. For example, you could have answered "not really", then move on to another subject.

Thanks, CK. Limbo is an apt description of where I think she is right now. I have to keep telling myself exactly what you said- it doesn't matter what she is doing. I can only control what I am doing.

MIM, you are probably right, but it was all I could do to prevent myself from launching into my usual interrogation/lecture. This has been a major LB in the past, so I just decided to leave it alone. Maybe in time I will be able to be more honest without LB's. Thanks for your input.

Total, you are doing GREAT. I also want to echo what MIM said as well. You need to stay honest. Saying, "Not really, want a cookie?" Wouldn't have been an LB but Lying IS. Remember, Plan A with No Expectations and NO LBs.

Thanks, Scotty. Keep me honest and on the path.

Not much interaction with WS today, which is probably good, since I am having sort of an angry day. No real reason either, just every once in awhile I have a day where I am thinking, "Why am I the one doing all of this giving, with nothing in return, when she's the one who cheated?" My Taker is in control today, so I'm laying low. Tomorrow is another day, right?

ABSOLUTELY. This is completely normal too. Glad you can recognize it. Could you do something that would not involve direct communication with WW? Maybe a remember when email? Do something fun with the kids. Take care of yourself.

Good advice, Scotty.

Went Christmas caroling to a nursing home with DD11 and DS10 with the church youth group. Feeling much better about my situation now. Funny how focusing on others, rather than yourself, does that, isn't it? If every WS could learn that one lesson: STOP THINKING ONLY OF YOURSELF- I don't think they would be wayward for very long.

Very wise words.

Some of us do eventually come around and figure that out, thankfully. I hope your wife will be one of those someday.

I have stayed completely dark today- no contact with WS whatsoever. We'll see what the evening brings.

I think this is a good idea. I also think you need to trim back sending her pics of the home stuff you and the kids are doing.

@totaldisbelief -

When you're doing this dark period, do have any withdrawal feelings?

Say more MB- I have been trying to show WS that the kids and I are carrying on with our normal activities, with her or without her. So far, it seems that this has caused her to want to be with us more. What is your thinking behind backing off on the pictures? I am open to suggestions.

CK- yes, definite withdrawal. It's all I can do not to call her, but when I'm having an "angry day", I'm a little afraid of what I might say to her. Trying to build the LB$ balance, avoiding LB's at all costs. I know I need to do it, but that doesn't make it easy.

I fear that you are 'weaning' her off her children. I think you are at a point where it is time to cut her out of the loop on these activities. Make her sit through a few evenings, knowing that you are involved in family activities, and show her nothing. It looks to me like those family pics are NOT causing her to want to be with you. I'm concerned that she is looking at them and comforting herself.

Showing her pics of the kids won't make her miss them. Not sending her info and simply carrying on will.

Point taken. Let's try it and see what happens.

So, WS breaks the darkness by emailing me today to ask about plans for the kids this weekend. I wait awhile to respond, and suggest that we go to lunch together today to discuss it. As I am sending my response, she calls me. She says, "Do you really want to get out in this weather?" (we have snow/sleet here today). I say, "It's not that bad, I'll pick you up." She says, "Well why do we need to discuss it?" I say, "We don't. I'm just inviting you to lunch. If you don't want to go, just say so."

(It's not so much that she acts like she doesn't want to do things with me, it's just that she acts like I am the last option- you know, if she has absolutely nothing else to do. This, of course, brings out my taker. Must keep the taker under control.)


She says, "No, we can go. What is wrong with you? Why have you been so short with me this week?" I say, "I haven't been short with you. I haven't even talked to you in three days." She says, "I know. What's wrong? Why haven't you been talking to me?"


So, is someone missing talking to their husband? Imagine that.
Looks like this darkness thing might just be working.

As usual, the advice of the veterans is correct. Besides, it's good practice for Plan B.

Now, must put my game face on for some good Plan A work during lunch. Must work the plan, regardless of the reaction (or non-reaction).

When you break it, it's not good practice for plan B. Plan B is no lunches, no communication until the affair is DONE. D-U-N.

I think what you are doing is testing to see if see is capable of taking the initiative to help recover your marriage?

Lunch went well. She invited me to go with her and DD18 Christmas shopping tomorrow night. She also let me know that she has begun seeing a counselor once a week at work. This is new. She became quite emotional when talking about it. I sense that she has major internal conflict. She managed to tell me that she cares about me, which is the best I can get from her right now. She asked me, "You do know that I care about you, don't you?" I replied, "Sometimes." She got a little emotional at that as well.

Back from lunch and WS is emailing me back and forth about the kids.

Something else she said at lunch- "I still struggle every day."

Withdrawal? Inner turmoil? Missing the kids?

I did ask her today if she had been in contact with OM. She said no, and chuckled, almost as if it was a preposterous question. I don't know how to explain it exactly- it wasn't like "how dare you ask that" but more like, "he's not talking to me, even if I wanted him to." I may be reading too much into it, I am prone to do that.

It sounds as if when you back off contact with your wife she becomes more interested in you and initiating contact with the kids. I worry that by being so accomodating and doing things with her so often, you are prolonging her "fog" by giving her enough contact to satify her current needs and make staying away from the family "ok" to her. She's not feeling totally cut off by living away from you and the kids.

I realize Plan B with kids involved is difficult.....but to me, she's not having to make any choices.....she's getting both worlds.

Folks he is in PLAN A NOT Plan B. When he gets himself into plan B, then I will ding him with the largest 2x4s EVA. Right now though, Total, you will need to keep DAILY contact with her. You know that old adage, "Out of sight, out of mind."

remember though, there is a STICK to Plan A as well. You need to let your WW know that this "friendship" arrangement isn't going to last. You are only interested in being friends with your WIFE. I know it is Christmas time, but have you given any thought into calling the Harleys and getting some one on one professional advice on what to do next?

HELP!- Just caught WS at lunch with OM. Had a nasty confrontation with OM, then a not so pleasant conversation with WS, followed by more nasty on the phone with OM. WS and I were supposed to finish up the Christmas shopping with DD18 tonight. I told her we need to have a serious talk beforehand, and she agreed. What do I do now? I know I am supposed to Plan A regardless of what she does, but I pretty well blew that today. The sight of them together was just too much to take. WS got between us and kept me away from him. I told him to take off, and he did. Then he calls me up and starts talking crap. I told him I would see him in court. He didn't like that too much. (He has an extensive criminal record.) He ranted and raved on the phone, I stayed pretty calm. The calmer I was, the madder he got. He says meet me some where. I say, no, I'm working, see you in court. He didn't really want to see me, since I own my own business and my name is on the door.

What should I do? Continue Plan A? Go to Plan B?

I need a pep talk pronto!

I would go to Plan B and file for D. Especially since you've already shaken the tree by suggesting it to OM. If nothing comes of this confrontation, it will confirm to them that you plan to do nothing but get pissed now and then.

You continue Plan A. You scared the CR@P outta that OM and that is AWESOME.

Have you expose this to everyone? Is OM married? Who did you expose to on his side of this equation?

OM is not married. He is a serial adulterer. No one to expose to on his side of the equation, and he doesn't care anyway. He is afraid of the legal system, and he is afraid of me kicking his a**. I almost did that today, but he is the type who would get me locked up. He has nothing to lose, and I have everything to lose. I did let him know that I will fight for my family. I also let WS know that we are not going to be buddies, that she is not going to enjoy a fantasy life with OM, that I will do everything in my power to keep him out of my kids' lives, and basically make their life hell.

I am unsure about continuing Plan A or going to Plan B. I am about to go meet with WS. We'll see how that goes.

See, in Plan A, you need to assume that there IS contact, otherwise, you would be in RECOVERY.

Every single day of my Plan A there WAS contact with WH and OW. They work together in a call center and sit SIDE BY SIDE. When I was at work on the weekends, he would either go to see her or call her on the phone(I had a VAR). It is BRUTAL to do plan A. You CAN do this. With a BH they are told to do a longer Plan A so it is more effective. Your WW needs to be "won" back. That is why I suggest a longer Plan A.

Does OM have FB? Have you contacted any of his family? Parents? Siblings? Anyone who may have influence over him?

Excellent illustration of part of the radio show yesterday involving another poster, and why actual Plan A (when the A is active) has a time limit, whereas sort of Plan A (no active A) has a longer limit (for women).

Kudos to those in Plan A!

@Total -

Good for you! In no certain terms do you NOT whip out the Stick when they want to continue there affair. Exposure is a way that you express that you are willing to fight for your marriage. Well being angry and indignant that your WS spouse is still in the affair is another way to show that you are willing to fight for your marriage.

I think it is time to re-expose to family and friends again. If she was giving you a bunch of bull crap, she was also giving it to friends and family. Especially your SIL. She is the one that helped her separate from your family. Have her put some pressure on her affair.

You now have the OM's number use it continuously let him in no uncertain terms that WS is married and has kids. He needs to let your family be. Create conflict. Is he going to take you to court? Not. People like him are cowards.

No doubt by you going dark maybe had the affect of pushing her in the direction of OM. If she is angry at you, parrot the words, "I'm fighting for my marriage." Over and over again. So her needs aren't being met. Either she lets you meet them or if she wants to go to OM. Put the pressure on him.

She is cake eating. So remember that you are showing the stick, but that you also have the carrot. Please don't be a doormat. Let her know that as long she continues with OM that you have the stick.

This isn't really terribly surprising. It was pretty obvious that your wife was still seeing the OM. As I said before, there was always only one reason for her to move out.

Along with the above suggestions, I also think you should tell your kids that their mother is still seeing the OM. They are your best weapon to kill this A right now. You can bet that seeing them hurt and disappointed in her is going to affect your wife far more deeply than anything else. I know you may be reluctant to do this because you don't want to hurt them anymore, but they really need to know what's going on. Seeing the pain she is continually causing them may (hopefully) bring your wife around.

Part of the problem is that it's very difficult to do an effective Plan A when your wife isn't living with you.

I think it's time to contact the Harley's directly.

Hey sorry to hear your setback happened. Not hyjacking at all, but I am having some issues too and called to talk to Steve Hartley for Monday. He has a number of morning appointments open or at least he did twelve hours ago.

The vets give great advice and I have nothing but respect for anyone who will help someone in our shoes. I figured $200 was worth it though for 45 minutes of one on one.

Good luck and hang in there.

I'm so sorry! I remember how painful "re-discovery" was, each time it happened. I have to agree with Writer. It's not surprising since she is still in her own apartment. If she wasn't seeing OM and wanted to recover the marriage, she'd move home. What better way to show that you are remorseful and want to commit to the marriage??

I think you have to show disapproval at this uncovering of your WW lying to you about contact. I would be inclined to go to Plan B. She seems to be getting enough of you and the family to fill the need while she continues her affair. Time to stop that and let her see what it REALLY looks like. Just my opinion.

You've done a great job with executing the Plan A. I don't think I would last very long in plan A with my H living in an apartment and seeing OW. In fact, he did move out for a short time when I found he had asked OW to marry him (I made him leave). I didn't take his calls and I filed for divorce (he didn't know it yet). But it made a huge impact on him. His choice was becoming real.

I'm glad you didn't beat up OM. He surely deserved it, but you are right. He has nothing to lose. He may even being trying to goad you into something.

Hang in there!

Scotty, love ya girl, but I'm going to advise that he go to Plan B immediately and file. His wife has become comfortable with the needs he's been supplying. Meanwhile, OM has been supplying her other needs. WW has had time to start building her 'new life' and still needs her BH to help tidying up the loose ends.

I think she needs to see legal papers. I think she needs to realize that her live is going to be very much hampered without her BS.

I could be wrong on this one, but I don't think so.

Okay folks, thanks for all the input. I am not at all surprised that she is talking to him. I have suspected it all along. The only thing about this that I consider a setback is the way that I interacted with my wife. I wish I had enough self-control to express my displeasure in a calm, rational manner. But as some of you know, actually seeing them together is intensely stressful. Oh well, something to continue to improve about myself.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy about the way I handled OM. I basically told him to take off, and he slithered away. I also had a little fun with him on the phone. Apparently, he has major anger issues. As soon as I mentioned taking him to court, he freaked out. I just let him rant and rave, and never lost my cool. If he loses it like that with WS, it will definitely backfire. I think it is just a matter of time.

I had a fairly decent talk with WS. I remained fairly calm, even though she was in full fog babble. "I don't love you. I have been unhappy for a long time. I still care about you, but I don't love you as a wife should love her husband." (That last one is my favorite.)

The kids went home with WS, and I have been sitting here alone, trying to sort it out. I have decided to try to continue Plan A for awhile longer, but I know that Plan B is coming, unless the A implodes. I definitely understand why you can't Plan A indefinitely. Thanks to all for your help. If I couldn't come here to vent, I would probably be in Plan FU by now

TD, I would normally suggest staying the Plan A course, but in your case I would strongly suggest you go to Plan B immediately. I think you're at a pivotal moment here. I think that will turn her, if you do it now, and not give her a cushion any longer. Make her face the concept of a new world without you and your kids.

MB, the advice from DrH is CLEAR. Men need to Plan A for up to 6 months. That is WITH a cake-eating WS. There have been MANY people on MB who HAVE done a Plan A(even had some with altercations with OP, Not2fun comes to mind) and have still recovered their marriages. I am NOT quick to send a man into plan B. Separation is RISKY. Out of sight out of mind. Also, it should NOT be done as a "wake up call" to get the WS to come back to the marriage. It should be done when the BS has done their very best in plan A, used BOTH the carrot AND the stick of Plan A, and have enough LB left to recover of that is what happens. Also, the BS needs to be able to sit in their Plan B and KNOW that they did EVERYTHING to try to save their marriage.

Even knowing that I did EVERYTHING, I still doubted my Plan A and timing of Plan B at moments.

Total, just remember to stick to your plan. No one here is going to fault you for what you did with OM. Some here, me included may have done MUCH WORSE. You did fine. Now you KNOW where his weak point is. You have made your WW appear to be not worth the trouble to OM. Good work. Pressure on the affair. Keep it up.

MB,

I met with the biggest divorce shark in town when she told me she was moving out. He advised that in our state you must be separated for a year before you can file divorce papers. You can have a separation agreement, but it's not necessary unless there is a custody battle. I have the kids f/t, so no issue there. She was livid when I told her I had met with this particular attorney. I didn't follow a lot of his advice b/c it was all leading to D, but I have taken the necessary steps to protect myself and my kids.

I am not going to go Plan B just yet, because I want to leave with a strong Plan A. I know that day is coming, though. I do respect your opinion and value your input.

I don't believe SH has hard and fast rules on how long to Plan A. It really is up to the BS and how much the BS can take.

I side on the Plan B side. Go dark. Not to wake her up. It's to remove the cake eating and let you heal and see things objectively.

This is terrible pain and I can empathize.

But SH doesn't put a set time on how long to Plan A. I belive the 6 month period is the longest he recommends and not necessarily tied to a WW.

Think hard about Plan B. There's been a few people on here who have done them well.

But understand that Plan B is for you, not for her. It's to shelter you and let you withdraw from her a bit and give you protection for a period so you can think straight.

I'm just not satisfied with my Plan A yet. I want to finish it strong, to give Plan B the most impact. I don't feel my love for her slipping yet, because I can see that she is so conflicted. Also, it will be next to impossible to do an effective Plan B over Christmas, especially with the four kids.

I can handle Plan A for awhile longer........I think I can, I think I can, I think I can..........

@totals - you did the right thing. The OM ran away when confronted. That smells of weakness. Women love strong men. You've created a nice contrast effect.

You - I Love You. I'm going to fight for my marriage.
OM - I have no respect for you. When confronted I will slither off and hide under my rock.

The nice thing about MB is that all the planning is on you. You get to decide. You are in control.

It was nice letting your taker out for a little joy ride against OM wasn't it?

Remember Plan A isn't always about being nice. It's also about using the stick. So next time you use the stick what are you going to do different?

TD,

Scotland is giving you poor advice, IMHO. There is NO hard and fast rule for Plan A - re recommends 6 months for men IF THEY CAN DO IT. That's something I've never connected with - I couldn't do it emotionally for anywhere near that length of time.

There is no reason to continue in Plan A, since you have seen for yourself that she is cake-eating and still spewing fog babble. I also would not go to Plan B. I think it's time to show her that you can play hardball. I recommend telling her you are sick of the way she's treating you, and that you're going to divorce her, and CLEARLY spell out (again) how UN-FANTASY-LIKE this divorced reality will be. Then go through with the divorce, unless she comes back, broken and humbled, to you. You are not in a marriage right now. You're in a horrible limbo. Get out, man.

Good luck,
Arpeggi

I respect your decision, td. In the end, it IS your call. I am glad to spoke with the attorney, and I'm not surprised by your WW's reaction to that. Attorneys = potential change in the cozy set-up.

Here's what I see happening with her: she is getting settled in her new life. You helped her work through the adjustment of losing the full-time enjoyment of her children. You helped her ease into her new 'single' life, always there to help her, always there to comfort and support her.

She has responded in true wayward fashion by taking, taking, taking. I think she feels entitled, not grateful, for what you have been doing for her, or she will very soon.

I think it's going to take a strict Plan B for this one, and I'm concerned that is should happen sooner in this case, not later.

Like I said, your call. td. I'll support you either way.

I have to agree with the two posts immediately above. She's cake-eating big time and probably enjoying having both worlds....her family and the OM.

I guess I feel that continuing along the same path of Plan A seems like on some level aiding and abetting her lifestyle choices. Especially after the blantant run-in with she and her OM. I guess I don't get continuing to provide your attention, concern and love to a person who is disrespecting you, her children and her marriage. Seems she's not feeling too many consequences from her choices.....she's got the family, the holiday feel-good fun stuff, a pretty responsibility free life, her own apartment and a boyfriend on the side. Sure, there's some pressures and conflicts, but this has been going on for a while and she seems to be continuing on.

I feel for you. You are dealing with a really wayward wife, raising four kids pretty much by yourself, running the household, holding down a job and generally being a very nice guy. This is a lot for anyone, and I don't see whatever the current plan is having much impact on your wife's willingness to change her behavior and give up her boyfriend.

For you, something needs to change.

Time is now to plan B. Hand WW the plan B letter today. If you can't see her today then email or text her this evening.

@total -

Don't go into Plan B. Of course she is cake-eating. Duh! You knew that. Plan A takes that into account. In fact I would say that Plan A implicitly takes into account that WS is a cake-eater. If she wasn't a cake-eater you would have no way to Plan A. WS would have told you she didn't want anything to do with you and disappeared out of your life.

Only go from Plan A to Plan B when your no longer able to contain your Taker and the emotional toll on your well-being is unhealthy. Being mad and angry at seeing your WS with OM is normal. One incident of LB on your part does not necessitate you going from Plan A to Plan B.

Plan D is implemented when you have a wayward that is using marital assets to continue their affair. Or in the event the wayward is exposing children to an unhealthy environment involving OM. To me these issues are not there. Do not go to Plan D.

Your Taker generating an Angry Outburst, if anything, is telling you what you need to work on. How do you convert these outbursts into a proper stick of your Plan A?

IMHO, I think that you had a larger $LB than LB. Also don't discount the OM slinking off after your confrontation. That had to deplete her $LB with the OM.

Remember your WS has a big reality-popping event looming over her. Her financial situation. Reality has this pernicious habit of penetrating the Fog. Several things could happen as a result of this.

One, is that the reality of her situation pushes her out of the Fog and Fantasy. IOW, she actually starts to come to the realization that in order for her to have her EN of Financial meet she needs to be with you. This gives you a better ability to meet the 4 intimate needs.

The second is that she will continue in her Fog and continue to generate further consequences of her waywardness till she hits rock bottom.

-more to come-

I think maritalbliss has this spot on for your Plan A tactics. IMHO you need to have her coming to you for her needs to be met. Continue with your dark days and when she comes to you for needs to be met you will give it to her in spades.

So far you have been initiating contact. The time you give her a darkness, she comes to you. You need to teach her that when she needs to have her needs met she should come to you. This is Pavlovian.

You know that she is a cake-eater. Therefore OM is not meeting some of her needs. Get her trained coming to you to meet her needs. At some point she will be coming to you for more and more of her needs.

[tj]
@marital how can we give this some more bite without going into Plan B? I really believe he needs to get WS back into home to really shine with his Plan A. I think that if he can get her back into the marital home and when he goes to Plan B the consequences for WS will be even greater.
[/tj]

Hello! Welcome back to the intention of Plan A; to draw the WS back into the marriage.

Cake eating? Yes! So make a better cake!

A solid Plan A for an appropriate length of time is what makes Plan B effective. Without Plan A, there is no Plan B.

And, Plan B is to provide a picture of what divorce would be like.

You are laying a beautiful, comfy rug beneath her. It's warm, inviting, and attractive... and then you yank that sum b(*&( right out from under her, and leave her with that bargain bin boyfriend.

"This is what I am capable of giving you, and that will only happen when it's just me and you. Not me, you, and douchenozzle."

Be aware, TD, that while you may not feel a loss of love at this point, you usually don't feel it until your LB$ balance is critically low to begin with. This is the second part of Plan B; to conserve what LB$ balance you have left by ending contact, and thus ending continued large LB$ withdrawals.

Note I said conserve. While the A is active, even without contact, your LB$ will slowly continue to dwindle. You are simply protecting it from large withdrawals.

You want to move to Plan B while her LB$ account with you is still in some good standing, so that you have the strength to succeed in Plan B.

I believe that's the problem with td's Plan A. It's been all carrot and no stick. I'm not sure what the best approach would be. But if td isn't going to Plan B, he needs to start applying the stick. I suspect that would be limiting his WW's exposure to her children and their activities. Limiting her exposure to the EN's he's supplying.

Everyone IS entitled to their opinions. This is the BEAUTY of a forum. You get differing POVs and get to figure out what is best for you.

ITA with Clark about the whole point of Plan A. There WOULD be an ACTIVE affair and a cake-eating spouse. Of course there is fog-babble. That is because SHE IS IN THE FOG. You need to be the lighthouse.

I also say that there needs to be some more stick of Plan A for it to be MORE effective. I DON'T think that there needs to be MORE detaching. That sounds A LOT like the 180 and that IS NOT MB.

Total, if you are really wondering what to do and can't afford the money to call the Harleys yourself, you could call the radio show and talk to DrH HIMSELF.

I dunno if you have read these, but I think that you could read them all again.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2370240&page=2 Read MArk's stuff about plan A and Plan B on the newly betrayed thread.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...t&Number=2296184&nt=2&page=1

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1875175&page=1

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...t&Number=1926030&nt=5&page=1

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1836779#Post1836779

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279149&page=1

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2276398#Post2276398

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1640788&page=1

Lighthouse thread,

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...t&Number=1117130&nt=9&page=1

I am going to say that plan B DURING th holidays might be the best thing for u now mark. I think u did a great plan a and waiting is not going to make it better. U can still do plan b during the holidays that will not be hard your wife needs to see how its going to be like losing u.

So I am all for u to be in plan b and file for a divorce.

Wow- lots of input, and all is appreciated. I am going to admit right now that the weekend was tough. After discussion with WS on Friday night, I went totally dark. No contact at all on Saturday. She did show up for church Sunday and sat with the family. We had a nice conversation after the service. I told her I will be as good to you as you will let me be, but it is just too painful for me knowing that you are continuing contact with OM. She says I know, it is painful for me too. So, she is definitely cake-eating, and extremely conflicted about it.

Something interesting happened Sunday afternoon. My mother has been inviting WS for dinner every Sunday, and she has always declined since moving out. Well, yesterday, she accepted. She came over for dinner at my parents house, and that went really well. My parents are very caring, and my WS is truly a part of the family.

Well, the roller coaster hit bottom for me Sunday night. I guess having her there at my parents and everything going so well was just too much. I did have a very emotional phone conversation with her Sunday night. She is in extreme emotional turmoil right now.

One other interesting development- two of her married, church friends came over to visit her last night. (One of these is a FWS, and both have been extremely supportive.) She has been avoiding these two like the plague since moving out, because they don't tell her what she wants to hear. I was pleasantly surprised that she accepted their visit, and they were over there for a couple of hours. I'll be interested to hear from them how that went.

Well, I'm going to follow some of your advice. I am going to try to continue Plan A for a bit longer. I am also going to go dark though, let her come to me. We'll see how it goes. I know that Plan B is necessarily coming soon.

Stayed dark all day Monday, until DD18 ended up in the ER with kidney stones. Dark so far today, except for a brief phone conversation about meds for DD18. Always the dutiful dad, I am taking care of it. This is another example of something WS has given up with her new job. Kids are out of school this week, and normally she would be at home with them, but now she has to work.

"except for a brief phone conversation about meds for DD18."

Why pick up the phone? Hering her voice and hers yours breaks NC.
DD 18, I don't know any 18 yo that can't handle meds on her own.

Telling you to tell DD to take a pill four times a day is not an emergency. So no need to break NC.

WW can text, email, send note with DD. WW does not have get you on the phone.

TheRoad- I am not in Plan B, I am in Plan A. I am just backing off a bit and letting WS come to me, then being very good to her. DD18 has a rather serious kidney disease, so it's not quite as simple as you describe. Plan A, Plan B or Plan D, I will always take care of my children. Interacting with WS in this way is meeting an important EN, which is exactly what I am trying to accomplish in Plan A. Once I go to Plan B, I know I will have to handle this differently, but I'm not there yet. Thanks for your observations.

No, it IS as simple as TheRoad advises. You reach out to WS in Plan A, you DON'T in Plan B. You're in Plan A? Okay - you don't 'go dark' and you have communication. In Plan B that changes. NO direct communication.
You are doing a watered down Plan B. This will not serve you.

Once again, I will say this: you are helping her pave her way to independence. WHY?

Okay, perhaps "dark" is not the right word. I am in no way not in contact with WS. I am simply not taking the initiative in communicating with her. What I have found in the past few weeks is that the times that I have reached out to her less, she has been noticeably shaken. Letting her come to me is part of me not being in "Plan Doormat". I am still trying to meet her EN's, one of which is family commitment. I am still trying to avoid LB's with her, while trying to apply more of the stick and less of the carrot. I am not doing a watered down Plan B. I am not avoiding contact with her, simply not initiating it as much.

Much pressure is coming her way during the holidays, from various family members, all of which have been exposed to. She is refusing to attend the family festivities at my parents, due to my sister's harsh treatment of her. She has also asked that I not attend at her family's events, because it makes her "uncomfortable". Both of our extended families are upset about this, and have been quite vocal about it. DD11 has let her know that she does not want to go to grandma's with mom because "I don't want dad to be alone on Christmas."

I am sure you have gotten plenty of answers from others already but I feel you I am not far ahead of where you find yourself. I found out about a 9 month affair about 6 months ago. The only thing I can say for certain is that time will pass and your days will get better. I was in exactly the same situation and exposure is important no matter what anyone tells you. I told my WW's parents, contacted the OM family, and Told my wife's friends. Honestly maybe I should have done more. She has asked me know to stop telling people. But at this point I do feel the A is over. She has shown true remorse and true frustration. I know everyone says that the WS should approach the BS with dignity and respect at all costs. But again whatever the reason for the A it is really due to emotional needs not being met. Your WS is no different, She is going to feel sadness and loss about the OM just as you feel about losing her, and this will cause arguments. I would love to hear from a BS who felt like their WS was perfectly understanding in all ways shapes and forms. An A is hard for all, and many reasons. My best to you, and by all means do your best to focus on YOU! first. Kids to of course!!!

Milty, thanks for your kind words. I am sorry that you are in this situation, but glad that the A is over. Unfortunately, that is not the case with me. I agree with you completely about exposure- it is the only thing that has made any difference at all. Since WS has reinitiated contact, I am now in the process of exposing all over again. Hang in there.

Well, I re-exposed (about continued contact with OM) to WS' parents last night. I had a one-hour conversation with MIL. She was extremely unhappy. She actually asked me about it before I had a chance to tell her. She said she has sensed it for the last week or two. She is going to confront WS about it. MIL is not one to mince words, so that will be a very unpleasant conversation for WS. Applying the stick- "let the consequences fall squarely upon the shoulders of the guilty."

ALl the best TD. Keep exposing, you're right to do it. I only wish I had found out about it in September

Thanks Reynolds, and good luck to you as well. I only wish that OM had a GF, as yours does. He was at one point trying to reconcile with his ex-wife, dangling WS in front of her, but that didn't work out. I just don't have any leverage with him at all, no wife, no girlfriend, no family, no morals. I just don't know what it will take to snap WS out of the fog. Original exposure really did a number on her, so we'll see what this next round does.

Can you do some research and find anyone that is important to this guy? GF told me in my case OM does not care for his family, but his facebook friends for instance were critical to him - his whole sense of self worth.

This guy have coworkers, married golf buddies, school friends?

Love to see you get a hook into him.

Jack-leg carpenter, drunk, serial adulterer. Doesn't care about anything. My best hope is that he will get tired of meeting all of WS' EN's, especially financial, and that he will get tired of her grown-up responsibilities (job, kids, etc.) getting in the way of the A. Previous to now, WS had been a SAHM, or worked for me part-time, meaning she had all the time in the world to do whatever she wanted. Now that she has moved out, she has a f/t job, no money, and wants to see the kids whenever she can. This combination of factors is putting a real crimp in the A.

Hope is not a Plan, td. I'll bet you can dig someone up who can put pressure on this loser.

Even this POS had a mother. What is his trade? I never heard of that. Does that mean he is freelance? Can you expose to his employer(s)? My dad worked in construction, and he sure as he*l wouldn't hire a guy doing that. Is he on facebook or is your wife? Great tool. I found my target halfway across the globe in five minutes. If your wife is on, check for surnames that match your OM in your wifes friend list. Have your done an exhaustive internet search on him? Probably has a record or something you can use as leverage with MIL. One thing her daughter is running around, but what if hes a convict? You will double her motivation. Being in the states would be a real advantage for you with the internet search, I couldn't use that. Have you talked to his ex wife in person? If hes such a treat she would likely help you find people - tell her you've got kids etc.

Sorry if you did this already and I am being redundant. I just REALLY want you to punch through this guys armour. Hes got to have a weakness, find it and exploit it. The way I see it, he does not love your wife, and there has got to be something he loves more. Find it, and apply the same principle. If he keeps your wife he loses xxx.

I really hope this kickstarts your thoughts on a lever on this guy.

Did you talk to the Hartley's? I was impressed, been to two counsellors that could not match what he gave me in a million years.

What Up?

Reynolds,

Already did everything you suggested, except talk with the Harley's. Planning on doing that after the holidays. Budget is tight right now.

Well, Christmas sucks this year. Took WS to the Nutcracker ballet Thursday night. (Something we had planned a couple of weeks ago.) That actually went reasonably well, we had a good time. WS came over last night for dinner, and spent the night (in DD11's bedroom), to help with Santa and so she could be there on Christmas morning with the kids. She was in rare form from the moment she walked in the door. Very good to the kids, very obviously cold and indifferent towards me. (Kids even noticed it.) Well, this ticked me off. I didn't really blast her, but when we left the house to pick up the gifts at my office, I said some things to her that I have needed to say, mostly about the damage she is doing to the kids. I think it is time for Plan B.

Oh, I forgot to mention- as expected, she didn't want me to accompany the family to MIL's house, so at noon today, I had the privilege of sending my kids off to their grandparents, while I stayed home alone. Kids are back now though, all is well. Merry Christmas to everyone on this board, especially to all of the BS who may be struggling today. It's a tough day, but survivable. Hang tough, my friends.

Go to plan b now, write your letter up and post it

We are all out here TD. You are so right. It is tough whether the WS is still living with us or not. All the best. Merry Christmas!

I am sorry I did not give you any new ideas TD. I just got here too, so I am no one to take advice from, but I was hoping to give you an idea.

Honestly Steve gave me some really good advice, and sent me in a direction I was not really looking to go. Its paid dividends in the last week - even if I was reluctant to not play hardball.

Can you find the $200 somewhere? I hate to even suggest but what if you told MIL you had a line on someone who might help?
I know, I know I wouldn't like that either..

Just trying to help man, Steves probably cracked tougher cases thats all.

Also, you CAN email the radio show and ask DrH HIMSELF. They will even give you a book. Think about it.

Just wanted to wish you a Merry Christmas TD. I'm sorry you're having a rough time. I really hope the holidays will be better for you next year.

Thanks for all of the kind words. Things are okay. I have had almost zero contact with WS since Christmas. We have exchanged a couple of emails re: the kids, but that's about it. Older kids (DD18 & DD15) are now refusing to go over to her place to visit. I need to get a Plan B letter together. I am going to try to schedule a session with the Harley's after the first of the year.

Sorry you're still struggling with this. I think it's a good thing though that your older DD's are refusing to see their mother. This is only going to drive it home even more to her what she is doing to her family and what it is that she stands to lose if she continues her wayward behavior. Plan B, once you enter it, will do that even more. I strongly suspect that your WW is really going to realize what she's throwing away once the OM is faced with meeting all of her EN's. From the way you've described him here, I don't think it will take him long at all to fail miserably at that, and each failure on his part will just open your wife's eyes a little more as to what she's giving up for this loser.

It's difficult to see those that we love suffer, but sometimes, you just have to let someone hit rock bottom before they finally wake up and realize what they're doing.

Hang in there. You're doing good.

Thanks, writer1. I think you're right. WS has already reached out more to kids since DD's refused to go to her house. It has seemed like she was just getting the kids to "check the box", if you know what I mean. I think their refusal to go with her has been quite a shock to her system. MIL has used the exact words as you- says WS is going to have to hit "rock-bottom" before she wakes up. Problem is, none of us knows what "rock-bottom" is. Last night, as I looked around at my kids, I realized that this could be so much worse. How any mother could choose to be apart from her children is beyond my comprehension. It is definitely the fog of the affair. The one week that I spent living apart, when WS insisted that I move out, was a week of pure hell. To know that my children were less than a mile away, and I was missing out on their lives, was almost more than I could bear. I have to believe that this will sink in with WS eventually, if she ever gets tired of living her second adolescence.

I can't tell you what rock bottom will be for your wife. It's different for everyone I suspect.

My A lasted for 6 months after D-day. During much of that time, I was openly communicating with the OM while still living with my H. For most of it, I was dead-set on ending my M and being with the OM. I even flew across the country to be with the OM (twice). I lost a ton of weight (I think I got down to 114 and was starting to fit into my DD 17's clothes). I was stressed beyond belief. I was suicidal (I even bought a bottle of sleeping pills to take care of the job). Much of the time, I thought I was going absolutely crazy. I considered having myself committed to a mental institution. It wasn't pretty.

I think I finally just came to a realization of what I was doing to myself (and to everyone that loved me) and I knew I had to put an end to it. I knew I wasn't going to survive if I didn't. My kids (and yes, even my H) meant enough to me that I just couldn't do that to them anymore. So, I stopped. I stopped even though I thought I was still "in love" with the OM and I didn't feel much of anything for my H at all. I stopped because, even though I wasn't having those feelings for my H (because of the murk of the "fog" I know now), I also couldn't really fathom a future without him. I could imagine a life without the OM in it, but I just couldn't imagine one without my H and kids. I stopped on the blind faith that I could fall in love with my H again if the OM was out of the picture. It was unbelievably difficult at first, but I clung to the hope that it would get easier with time, and it did.

I can't tell you how your wife will respond to Plan B. My H never made it that far. He stuck it out in Plan A, and almost exactly 6 months after my A began, it ended, mostly because I saw how hard my H was fighting to keep his family intact and I just couldn't walk away from that.

Total, you need to be either in full Plan A or full Plan B. Right now, you seem to be in a sort of Plan B. One that isn't too dark and in the long run, won't be very effective either.

If you are going to go to Plan B soon, you should ramp up your Plan A efforts for a few days to a week before you enter it. Get all of your preparations done for Plan B. Get yourself ready.

Scotty, you're absolutely right. I am on the fence, not certain about Plan B yet, as I feel it is a point of no return. Also, I am not satisfied with my Plan A, especially over the holidays. Because of my internal struggle, I have just been taking a little break from WS. I know it is contrary to the plan, but it is about all I can manage right now. So vets, release the 2 x 4's.

TD,

Backing off a bit and avoiding love busters is part of plan A, you are doing nothing wrong. Plan A does not mean fully engaged 24x7. It means planting the seeds in the WS's brain that things can change, you could forgive, and that things will be better if...

Plan B is not the end either. It preserves your love for her. Once that is gone, no matter what she decides there is little chance for recovery. So plan B buys you time, let's the affair have more time to end, and preserves some love for her which you will need IF you decide to try and rebuild.

Plan B is NOT punishment, banishment, it is preservation.

Hope this helps.

JL

Thanks JustLearning- that is exactly where I'm at- backing off a bit. My love for WS is still intact, which is why I'm reluctant to go to Plan B right now.

Just got off the phone with MIL. She wants to come to our house once a week to help out with the housework & the kids. I said sure, I appreciate it. WS will not be happy about her mother coming over to handle her responsibilities. MIL also let me know that she has written her a letter that she plans to deliver to her this afternoon. This is in response to the exposure of her renewed contact with OM. WS will be furious about this. I'm certain I will get a call from her the instant she reads that. Oh well, let the consequences of their actions fall squarely upon their shoulders. Happy New Year.

Good Luck, stay on script. She did this, not you.

Good work!

ya good job!

I love your mil

Even though I know she did this, not me, it is still difficult. My stomach is in knots right now thinking about her reaction when she reads that letter from her mother. The first time I exposed, I expected wrath and fury, and what I got was cold indifference. I don't know what to expect from this, but I am dreading it.

In my prayers recently, I have prayed that she would be humbled, that she might have some experience that would humble her to the point of thinking of someone other than herself. I have been very concerned about her safety as I think about what that experience might be. I worry about her alot, now that her new single lifestyle has her out at all hours of the night, doing who knows what.

Perhaps this letter from her mom will be the beginning of a humbling experience for her?

Don't dread it - embrace it. This is a consequence of her actions! Her Mom is lowering the boom! Nice!

I know that's right MB. It's not the consequences to her that I am dreading- it is my having to deal with her reaction. Even though I know it is for the best, it is still painful to see her suffer, and even though I know that 99% of what comes out of her mouth now is fog-babble, it still takes its toll. Does that make sense?

Look at this in a positive way: this confirms that you've got a good balance in your Love Bank.

I'm trying to think of an analogy that might help. I wanted to say something like 'remember her being in labor and the suffering she went through, and the joy that resulted.' Hackneyed, maybe. But I'll leave it.

My point to you is to keep in the forefront of your mind that positive things can come from pain.

Consider it a better emotion for her to have than indifference.

And if she starts fog-babble with you about her mother's letter, stop her. You aren't the author of that letter, her mother is. Take on NO ownership of other people's reactions to the A. Tell WW she needs to talk with her mother about her mother's letter.

Total, you are lucky to have someone who IS putting pressure on your WW the right way.

Stay on script. You are doing grand.

Also, you WANT to enter Plan B with a positive LB balance. If it gets too low, there will be no chance for your marriage because you won't want to recover.

I only suggested that you either do a full Plan A or a full Plan B. Right now, from what you have been posting, you are doing a bit of both. That isn't the way that DrH devised it to be used.

You MIL is drawing the line for you which is the whole point of exposure. Shes doing the heavy lifting for you.

Its great - best possible outcome unless the OM suddenly grows a family and they tackle him for you too....

This is great! Don't worry about reaction!

Hi, Total. Haven't heard from you in a few days. Just wondering how everything is going.

Spent New Years Eve at home with the kids- first time in 23 yrs w/o WS. She came over to p/u the kids on New Years Day. I asked her about her New Years Eve, and she admitted that she was at a party, and that POSOM was there. I didn't go ballistic, but I did express my displeasure. She also mentioned MIL's letter. She didn't seem angry, but I could tell that it had a major impact on her. I said, "Honey, I need for you to be okay. You know that what you are doing is wrong, and you see the damage it is doing to the kids. As long as this continues, you are not going to be okay. You say that I was controlling, but now you are being controlled by something else." She began to cry and said, "I know".

She brings the kids to church Sunday, and the Stake President is there (ecclesiastical leader of several congregations, sort of like a Catholic Bishop). He approaches her after the service, and she spends 2.5 hours talking to him. LDS posters will understnd that this is a huge step for her. I talked with her yesterday afternoon and again last night, and she was extremely emotional.

I can tell that she is at a turning point. I'm not saying that she is going to change right away, but the emotional turmoil and pressure is at an all-time high. I can foresee this causing lots of problems between her and OM, as he has no respect for her religion.

Also, I contacted the Harley's over the weekend, and they have invited me to call in to the radio show next week. I am very excited to get some expert advice, straight from the horse's mouth.

This is awesome! Let us know what time you're going to be on.

Hows it going TD?

Sorry, haven't posted for awhile- very busy. In addition to meeting with our church leader, WS had an appt. with our family doc. She shared with her our situation, and family doc prescribed anti-D meds. She also insisted that WS seek professional counseling for depression. WS called me up and shared all of this with me. She said she was going to take the meds and seek the counseling. This is huge for her, because she has been extremely resistant to this from day one, especially the meds. I had an appt. with the family doc later in the week and she talked with me about it. She said she has no doubt that WS is depressed. WS has a follow-up appt. with church leader in two weeks. She told me that he had given her some things he wanted her to accomplish before their next meeting. She said "they are going to be very hard for me, but I am going to do them."

I have noticed a major change in her attitude in the past week. Where she had been very cold and indifferent, now she is actually treating me like a human being. She came over Saturday to get the kids and gave me a hug and kiss (first time since Christmas). She came in the house, plopped down in her favorite chair and visited with me and the kids, as if she still lived there. Yesterday at church, she was like her old self. Several of her friends even commented to me about it.

I'm not doing celebratory backflips or anything, but something is changing. Time will tell.

I will be on the Harley's radio show today, so we'll see what the expert has to say.

I am really glad for you. Was a little worried because you didn't post for a while.

Thanks for the update. I hope it goes well for you on the radio show today. I'm going to try to figure out how to listen. I think there's a way you can listen after the show airs here on the website? Anyone have a link for that?

Just got off the phone with Dr. Harley. He says my best chance is to move to another state. Interestingly, I offered that option to WS when this first started and she actually agreed, but has since changed her mind. He says I should make plans to do that in two years if A has not ended. Meanwhile, continue Plan A for as long as I can possibly endure it. Show as much interest in the marriage and WS as possible, create conflict in the A, and make the POSOM give up. He feels most likely outcome is POSOM will decide WS is too much trouble, breaking it off (just like Jon & Sue in SAA). If not, moving away is the only option.

I encourage everyone to take advantage of emailing the Harley's to be on the radio show. They were very gracious, and Dr. Harley is sending me in a different direction than I was headed, as I had started to take an "absence makes the heart grow fonder" approach. I will now regroup and follow his advice.

By the way, if you go to "Marriage Builders Radio" on the website, there are two links- one to listen to the show live, and another to listen to a rebroadcast of the previous show for the next 23 hours. Hope this is helpful.

After my conversation with Dr. Harley yesterday, I have decided to re-focus my Plan A. We are having inclement weather here, so I called WS on the way home from work last night, told her I was stopping at the grocery store on the way home, did she need anything, also, would you like to come over for dinner with me and the kids? She came over and we had a nice dinner together as a family. She seemed happy and relaxed. This is the first time she has accepted such an invitation, other than Thanksgiving and Christmas Eve. On both of those occasions, she seemed very tense and uncomfortable.

I called her this morning before work to see if she needed any help getting to work in the ice. She said she was okay, but thanks for checking on her.
This morning, she emailed me- said she just wanted to make sure I had made it to work safely. This is the first time in over 2 months that she has made contact with me, other than relating to the kids.

Dr. Harley said something very interesting yesterday. He said that for women BS, he generally recommends that they fall back and allow the WH to pursue them. With men BS, he generally recommends that they actively pursue the WW, and let them know that they are willing to fight for the marriage and that they desire to have them back.

So, according to Dr. Harley's instructions, that is what I intend to do.

Good weekend- WS had kids Sat night, and she called me up and asked if I had any plans, then wanted to know if we could do something together as a family. We had dinner together and spent the rest of the evening at our house together. This is the first time since she moved out that she has ever suggested that we do something together (and this on a night that she already had the kids). She also accepted an invitation to Sunday dinner at my parents house (second time that has happened). The anti-D meds are making a huge difference in her demeanor. She begins individual counseling tomorrow, and is also continuing to counsel with our church leader. Baby steps, I know, but moving in a positive direction, I think.

This is very promising, td! Yes, baby steps...

Real glad to hear you doing well:)

Not much to report, but wanted to post an update. WS had her initial counseling session Tuesday- says it went well. She is taking prescribed anti-D meds, says they are helping her. She has another session with church leader tonight. So, in the past two weeks, she has taken three major steps, which I have been trying to get her to do since the beginning: church leader, counseling for depression, meds. There has been a noticeable change in her behavior (so much so that several of her friends pulled me aside at church Sunday and commented that "she seems like her old self"). The most surprising thing to me is that she has been sharing all of this information with me (about the church sessions, the counseling, and the meds). Other than that, this week has been uneventful so far.

Any movement on the moving back in to marital home front?

No movement on that front, but some interesting things that make me think she is still conflicted. She is in the process of signing up for benefits at her new job- she has added me to the dental, vision, etc. She has not changed her permanent address on any of her personal accounts. She just doesn't seem to want to make a clean break yet.

I don't know if you saw this in my thread, but I actually spoke with Dr. Harley on the radio show. He advised me to continue with Plan A for as long as I can, and to actually step up my efforts. He said that he advises female BS to lay back and let the WS come to them, but he advises male BS to actively pursue the WS and show them that they are willing to fight for the marriage.

This sort of changed my direction, as I had started to sort of fall back and let her come to me. I am now trying to follow Dr. Harley's advice and step up the Plan A. He says that I should be prepared for her to continue to cake-eat for some time, but that if the addiction can ever be broken, he feels that chances for recovery are great.

I don't know what will happen, but I do feel that the counseling, meds and church counseling are all huge steps for WS. I also can foresee these things causing tremendous conflict for her and for OM. WS told me two weeks ago that the Stake President (church leader she is meeting with) had given her several things to accomplish before her next meeting with him. She said "they are going to be very hard for me to do, but I am going to do them." The only one of these she has shared with me has to do with her reaching out to her father, who has had little to no contact with WS since the A. That will be a big one for her.

I also believe that eventually he will ask her to cease all contact with OM (if he hasn't already). Her next session is tonight, so we'll see.

How are the kids and you doing?

I know that Plan A for you must be tough. It might seem that you are almost there, but just short.

I do have a question. What are the conditions that your WS must meet in order for YOU to personally try to work Recovery?

We are doing okay. DD18 and DD15 are still resentful, especially DD15, who refuses to go to WS' house. DS10 and DD11 are very clingy. DD11 spends alot of time with my mother. DS10 told MIL the other day- "I think my mommy hates my daddy." MIL confronted WS about that. She said WS was very emotional and said she knows the children are suffering.

Plan A is tough, but the analogy I like best is the one about throwing rocks into a stream. That is how I am approaching this, just not expecting alot of apparent results, but believing that things are happening beneath the surface.

WS' best friend, who has been completely supportive of me & the kids, went over last week and had a heart-to-heart with WS. She told me she asked WS- "You say you have been unhappy for some time, so I have a question for you- are you happy now?" WS replied, "No, I am at the lowest point of my life." Friend says, "And how happy have you been since the A has been going on?" WS replied, "Not happy at all." Friend says- "You need to go home and at least give your husband a chance." WS says, "I know you're right." Friend said for the first time since this started, WS actually opened up to her and talked to her as a friend. (She has been avoiding her like the plague, as she knows that she is adamantly opposed to the A.) Friend told her that the counseling & the meds were not going to "fix" her, but they would hopefully allow her to think clearly and make good decisions. WS said, "That is what I am hoping for."

Dr. Harley says she is clearly addicted, and clearly knows that what she is doing is wrong. He also said that if she would admit her true feelings, she would say that she really wants to be in love with her husband and be married to the father of her children, but the pull of the addiction is controlling her right now.


My conditions for recovery are basically that WS will have to agree that she and I will follow MB principles- NC for life, EP's, POJA, total transparency, etc.

I don't think I can survive a false recovery, and I can't do this again.

Hey nice to see you helping new arrivals cope. I got told being pretty new and still in the fight adds credibility and I think thats true.

Had dinner with DD18 and DD15 last night. Invited WS to join us, and she accepted. She had her next counseling session with our church leader last night. I ran into her at the church just before her meeting and we were able to spend a few minutes together alone. She was very emotional. I told her that I really miss her. She cried. She is so conflicted. Talked to her briefly this morning and she said the session went well, but that's all she would say. All 4 kids are going over to her place tonight. This will be the first time DD15 has been over there in awhile. We'll see how it goes. All alone tonight- just got to keep on keeping on. Hope everyone has a good weekend.

WS agreed to join us for dinner at home on Monday night. Twice during dinner I notice her crying. I think the scene of the whole family around the dinner table was too much for her. DD18 & DD15 are still reluctant to go over to her apt. to visit, in fact DD15 flatly refuses. Last night when she came to pick up DD11 & DS10, she agreed to have dinner with us again. DD11 & DS10 initially refused to go home with her, but later changed their mind. This is the first time they have been reluctant to go. When she brought them home, DD11 came in the house, but not DS10. I went out to check on him and he was still in the car with WS. He was crying uncontrollably. WS waved me off, so I went back inside. DS10 came in a few minutes later, visibly upset. I went outside to talk with WS, and she said he is upset with her because she won't come home. She was also crying. I said "I'm sorry, but the children are suffering." She said, "I know, and it is my fault." I said "I am ready for you and I to fix this, and I am ready to forgive you and show you the kind of husband and father that I can be, whenever you are ready to make a commitment to me and our children." She said "I know" and continued to cry. I said "I am willing to help you in any way that you will let me." She said, "I know, but I don't feel good about asking you for help." I said, "You shouldn't feel unworthy of my help." She said, "What makes you think I feel that way." I said, "Because I have known you for 25 years, and I am looking in your eyes right now, and all I see is pain and guilt. Am I wrong?" She said, "No." I went inside and my little fellow was lying on his bed crying. I asked him what had happened, and he said he was talking to his mom about things and she said, "You know that I love you and your daddy very much." (She hasn't said that to me in a very long time, but that's another story.)
DS10 replies, "Well if you love us so much, why won't you come home?" WS says, "I don't know, but I am trying." I emailed her at work this morning and asked her how things were going- her reply, "It's okay, it's not great, but it's okay." How she can stand this, I will never know. I am hopeful that the fog will begin to lift. I have no expectations. I am not confident, or even optimistic. I am just hopeful.

There is nothing like looking at heartbreak in the eyes of a child to really cut through fog. I only hope your WW is able to see that.

I feel like crying, just thinking of your little guy crying on his bed.

Your wife is being very stubborn and she thinks she can do all this all by her self...one thing I learn in leadership skills is...you can not do it all yourself!!

I saw a sign that said..."If I had to do it all over again, I would have gotten HELP!!"

That was on a desk of a very powerful man.

He is his the apple of her eye. If anyone can cut through the fog, he can.

You are right, she is stubborn, but in the past few weeks, she has agreed to: (1) Counseling with our church leader, (2) Individual counseling for depression with a therapist, and (3) Anti-depressants (which she told me back in August that she would NEVER take.

Baby steps I know, but steps nonetheless.

What is going on? Let it out. Are you frustrated with the progress. How is your taker?

I am actually doing pretty well. Obviously, I would like for things to be moving more quickly, but she has taken some major steps, and the difference in her demeanor is astounding.

My taker is pretty well under control. I take him on a walk every night and let him out of his cage. I live out in the country, and I go for a long walk each night. I use this time to pray and cry and let my emotions run free, out of sight of my children. If I need to exercise my taker, that's when I do it.

I have gotten alot better about keeping him under control around WS. I guess a real turning point for me where that is concerned was my chat with Dr. Harley on the radio show. I was a little conflicted about whether to continue Plan A or proceed to a dark Plan B. He gave me very clear instructions to continue in Plan A for as long as I could keep it up. He said that when the BS is the husband, he advises them to actively pursue the WS and let them know that he is fighting for the relationship. When the BS is the wife, he advises them to step back and not pursue.

I am trying to be very good to WS, while still letting her know my boundaries.

TD,
As a FWH I can see the struggle your WW is going through yet at the same time it appears your consistency in meeting her needs and your never say die attitude appears to be working.
Keep up the good work. Your efforts will not be in vein.
Look at it as the extra mile/(s), the bottom of 9th and you're down by 10, 4th and 15 and you want to punt...no matter what, YOU NEVER QUIT.
Looking forward to hearing your success story.
I am,
Nit2WinHer

Total, how are your plan A efforts going? Is there any tweaking that you need to do? Is there anything that you need help with? Any way to also use that stick of plan A? Strike while the iron is hot.

Scotty, Plan A seems to be going reasonably well. Not sure what else I can do relative to the stick. I am open to suggestions.

What are your boundaries? Is she crossing them?

The only real boundary she is crossing is that she is still in contact with OM, but not much I can do about that.

What is the OM sitch?

I'm thinking you maybe need to reevaluate targets for Exposure again.

Have you tried to full court press wooing?

I'm trying to find what Harley recommends you to be wooing amount?

OM sitch is that they are still "talking", whatever that means. Exposure has been done, nothing left to do there. I am in full court press wooing, as much as WS will allow. When I spoke with Dr. Harley, he recommended this. He said when the BS is the husband, he advises them to actively pursue WS, so that is what I have been doing. I talk to her every day, send her flowers occassionally, invite her on dates (which she occassionaly accepts). I had a rather serious conversation with her yesterday about where we stand. She said "I have noticed the way you have been acting in the last few weeks and it has caused me to think differently about you and our chances of getting back together. I just still don't love you the way a wife should love her husband (ILYBINILWY)." I told her that she is unlikely to feel that way again as long as she is in contact with OM. That is about as far as I can go without unleashing my Taker for a round of LB's.

Cake-eater!

Have you been able to meet SF with her?

You really need to absolutely stop this questioning. You know that as long as she has not moved back into the home and is not working on recovery, she is in the Affair. If above and she is letting you meet her ENs, then you know where you stand, right? You are a corner of triangle.

I believe that you already have had one confrontation with OM. The Vets could help you on this, but maybe you need some more confrontation.

What is the OM sitch?

Look, I know she is in the affair, that is not in question. I also know that she is cake-eating. I discussed all of this with Dr. Harley, and his suggestion was to actively pursue her, continue with Plan A for as long as I can stand it. He says she is clearly addicted, wants to do what she knows is right, but feels unable to break the addiction. Until she is willing to agree to NC, there is not much else to do.

Every time she makes a statement like the above, I do express my disappointment and disapproval, in a kind and loving way. I don't act like I approve of her fence-sitting, I just don't freak out and lose my mind like I once did. I have gotten better at turning her fog babble against her, without making disrespectful judgments. It takes every ounce of self-control I have to do this, and I usually end up spewing these disrespectful judgments to myself on my nightly walks. Whatever it takes to maintain sanity, I guess.

She has made three major steps in the past few weeks by beginning counseling with our church, beginning individual therapy and taking meds for depression. Her interactions with me and her attentiveness to our children have improved dramatically since then.

I have actually had two confrontations with OM, and if I have any more I will likely end up in jail. As much as I would love to put my foot squarely in his behind, I have to think about my children- they need at least one functioning parent.

Damn, you look like you have a plan.

I was just trying to find other avenues for you to help accelerate the death of the A.

I'm here rooting for you.

TD, it sounds like you're doing exactly what Dr. Harley recommended that you do.

I was a cake-eater from July until January, when my A finally "ended." I put ended in quotation marks, because I actually remained in contact with the OM for about another year-and-a-half after I made the decision to stay and work on my M. I justified this because there was an OC in the picture, but I realize now that it was just another form of cake-eating. I wanted my M and the "friendship" of the OM as well.

My point is, the cake-eating can be extremely frustrating. I know, because I lived the other side of it as well for an embarrassingly long time when my H was involved in his A. I didn't have MB to help me through that and I didn't know anything about exposure or other tools I could have used to help end it faster. But you have a plan, and if the steps your wife is taking right now are any indication, it seems to be working. I think the only thing you need to guard against is making sure that you don't stay in Plan A so long that your LB becomes drained and you lose all love for your wife. If that happens, your M probably won't survive this. And yes, you do have to stay functional for your kids. They will thank you for that someday.

Hang in there. You're doing great.

TD, I remember reading Limb's thread and he was advised by SH to talk to his WW about the consequences of her A as part of the stick of Plan A. I don't want you to get right into it without a SOLID plan about what you are going to say and how you will say it so you can avoid any LBs.

Plan A without the stick is Plan Doormat. I just want you to stay on the right side of Plan A. It seems that you have been so far and that is SPECTACULAR. As writer mentioned, just ensure that you don't let your LB balance get too low as you will be unable to recover because YOU won't want to anymore.

So, how have you been destressing? Do you exercise? Go for runs? Play some shoot em up video games? Is there anything that you can do that would also include spending time with the kids?

Do you write your WW an email or text ever day? At the same time? Just a "Hey, hope you have a great day."

Remember, Plan A should be things that you would be willing to do should your WW decide to return to the marriage.

I seem to be all over the place with this post cuz I just thought of something else that would be a part of the stick for Plan A. You can stil state your boundaries as long as you do them without committing any Love Busters. For example, "I will not accept a marriage where you have a boyfriend, want a cookie?"

Thanks, CK- I'm always looking for alternate ways to attack this.

Writer1, you are absolutely right- the cake-eating is extremely frustrating. I am very sensitive to the fact that my LB balance could become depleted. Dr. Harley warned me about that as well. I have tried very hard to look at this almost as an illness- WS is sick with the fog of an affair, and it is affecting her moods, her actions, and especially her words almost like a brain tumor. I do get angry at times, but I don't feel my love for her slipping yet.

Scotty, I actually had a talk about the consequences of the A with WS yesterday. I was able to pull that off in a calm and rational manner, stating my position very matter-of-factly, without becoming too emotional. That is something I've been working on, and I seem to be getting better at it. I actually asked her yesterday "where do you see this leading?". She replied, "I don't know, I just don't know."

I actually communicate with WS every day. We talk by phone every day, and exchange several emails a day. In the last couple of weeks, she has actually initiated some of these, which is a change. In the past, she would only initiate contact to check on getting the kids. She actually had dinner with us at home twice last week, and on one of those occasions, I noticed her sitting there at her normal place at the dinner table, surrounded by her children, crying. She tried to hide it, but I saw it. I asked her about it later and she said, "It's just hard not being here with them." I said, "That is a problem that can be fixed." She said, "I know, I'm just not ready yet." Baby steps, I guess.

My main de-stressers are: prayer, doing things with my children, and taking my nightly walk. I live out in the country on the family farm, so each night I take a long walk, where I am able to be totally alone. This is my time to cry, talk to myself, say things that I would like to say to WS, and just generally de-compress. It may seem crazy, but it works for me. Also, I can't tell you how much coming to this forum helps me. It is just so comforting to see that WS' do all say the same things, do the same things, and that it is possible for them to come around.

As I have said before, I am not confident or even optimisitic, just hopeful- and that hope, along with my love for my wife and children, are what keep me going, even in the face of the thickest wayward fog.

Yes all the WSs are all the same and the more threads I read the more predictable they become. But its not easy when she used to be your wife - i know.

Hang in there TD, glad to see you're still around - that is if you and I are still having to fight this fight.

Your right Reynolds, they're all the same. Sometimes when WS says something that makes me think there is no hope, I come on here and find a thread where another WS said exactly the same thing, and then somewhere down the road, the fog lifted, and they were able to reconcile. That has kept me from giving up so many times.

How are things going with you?

Not to hijack, but I don�t have a thread. After I exposed my Ws affair fell apart. OM had proposed to his girlfriend, and threw my W under the bus to save that. So she been coming back around. I would like to say we are in recovery, but there are still tough days. I talked to Steve and he gave me some action items which I have been chasing hard. He�d like to talk to her, but shes pushing back on that. So I am kind of recovering, but we aren�t at full speed yet. Its frustrating, it tries your patience. But it�s a marathon. She has seen the MB site, not fully bought in yet. Shes trying in other ways.. I am just doing my best just like you.

Its funny because we see guys on here � and it seems like BH threads are all I read � that don�t pursue hard, or expose, or fight back and those are the ones that don�t make it. The ones that do are like us. They do all those things. So I have a good feeling about you two. Actually you, me and one other guy I think are a lot alike, and on the same path. I just got lucky and my exposure was dramatic. You two are having to earn it a little more.

I think the key for all of us and what keeps me up at night, is recovery. Making it stick, nailing the execution of it, making it permanent. I like action items � do this do that. None of this applying principles stuff. That I can�t relate to.

Anyway, enough hijack. I am glad you are still here and doing OK.

Reynolds, I am glad things are working out for you. Dr. Harley also told me that the best shot I have is for OM to break it off. Other than that, he said I could be in for a long ride. He also said that he feels that we have an excellent shot at recovery, if we could ever break WS away from OM.

I also get frustrated that there is not more than I can actually do. I like action, not theory.

Not much to report. We have been having some issues with DD18. She has chronic kidney stones, and we are concerned about her use of prescription meds. She has started seeing an addiction counselor, and WS has gone with her for her first couple of sessions. WS is very sensitive about the affect that her A and our separation are having on DD18. She says repeatedly, "her problems were going on long before ours, and I am not going to let her blame me for this." (Guilt). DD18 said the counselor spent a good part of their session questioning WS about her situation. Of course, WS is seeing her own therapist now also. This past Sunday after church, DD18 was with WS, and she said WS was very emotional, crying, etc. (She had become very emotional at the end of church, crying, holding my hand.) She made a comment to DD18 that has intrigued me. She said "I guess I am just running away from my problems, because that is what I do- I run away." I have never said anything like this to WS. (I have thought it a thousand times, but never said it.) I'm just not sure where that is coming from. I wonder if that has come up in her therapy sessions?

This sounds like something that would be discussed in therapy. And when you really look at it, it is clear that it is psycho-babble and makes absolutely NO SENSE.

Your WW piled a whole heap on problems on herself when she chose to have an affair. So I can't see where she can say she's running 'away' from her problems. She's just trading one set of 'problems' for another and damaging a lot of people while she does it.

I agree- trading one set of problems for a worse set of problems. It is interesting that she acknowledges that she is running away from her responsibilities with the children, though. I think it sounds like something from therapy too.

When I talked with Dr. Harley, he said he feels that she knows what she needs to do, and really wants to do it, but she is clearly addicted. I think that's true.

Is she seeing a therapist through LDS social services?

The reason I ask is because I saw a couple of different therapists for IC during my A, and the LDS ones were quite supportive of my staying in the marriage, whereas the non-LDS ones seemed more geared towards helping me "find myself" and "figure out what I really wanted." They wanted to help me explore my "true" feelings and figure out if I really wanted to be with my H, or if I wanted to leave and be with the OM.

Obviously, this 2nd type of counselor is a very bad person to be seeing if you're a foggy wayward involved in an active affair. The last person on earth who knows how they really feel or what they really want is an active wayward. Apparently, some (perhaps many) IC's didn't get that memo.

No, not an LDS therapist, nor referred through LDS services. I tried to get her to go that route, as did our Stake President. She resisted counseling for the longest time, and our family doc is the only one who has been able to convince her to go. When I suggested it back in August, WS said "I may go to counseling, but I will NEVER taked meds."

Right after New Years, MIL felt a strong prompting to write her a letter. She wrote her a 6-page letter, very powerful. That was on a Thursday. The following Sunday, she began counseling with our Stake President. The week after that, she had an appt. with our family physician, with whom she decided to share her situation. Family doc prescribed anti-D meds and insisted that she begin therapy for depression. WS called me that afternoon and shared that with me, which blew me away. I had an appt. with the same family doc the next day. She told me she had spoken with WS about our situation, wanted to know if I needed any help. I told her I was okay, but I wanted to thank her for convincing WS to go to therapy and for prescribing meds. I told her I had been begging her since August. She said "She is clearly depressed and confused about what she wants, and I was very firm in my request."

The period around Christmas and New Years were just terrible, but ever since these developments, she has been like a different person- almost like her old self. Her interactions with me and the children have improved dramatically. I'm not sure if it's the counseling with the Stake President, the therapy, or the meds, but I suspect it is a combination of all of these.

I also have mixed feelings about the therapist, because I know that there is no guarantee about what sort of advice she is getting.

Obviously, there isn't much you can do about it at this point except hope that she has a good therapist who is supportive of your marriage and able to see through all of the wayward fogbabble.

Getting your wife to agree to marriage counseling through LDS social services would be a fantastic next step. They may (or may not) be familiar with Dr. Harley's program, but they would definitely support saving the marriage, and I think that Dr. Harley's principles are very much in-line with the counseling generally provided through LDS social services, at least in my experience.

I agree. I will definitely suggest that.

Does anyone else find that Valentine's day particularly sucks for a BS? It is particularly sucky for me, as POSOM considers it their "anniversary", since it is the first time he contacted WS by phone. (I think I just threw up a little.)

My "suckometer" is reading "sucks alot" (if any of you have seen the stop smoking/nicotine gum ads).

+1,000,000 to you totaldisbelief - It will suck, but I'm going to make a nice dinner anyway. If nothing else, I'll put on a good front and show that I'm doing it for me. It's a dinner I was going to make for WW and me - a plan A move - but since exposure happened this week I have a feeling I'll be eating alone.

PS: What really sucks for me is that I'm going to help my son make a Valentine's day card for his mother. That's the kind of thing that's hard.

AndyM- help your son make that card anyway- it will make him feel good, and it will make your WS feel like crap.

My MIL asked me if she thought WS would give me the time of day around Valentine's Day (she knows about the POSOM "anniversary"). I told her I didn't know. She gave me $100 and said "Come up with something good if she does, and if she doesn't, then spend this on you and the kids." (This is the same woman who wrote WS a 6-page manifesto and posted it on her door. Wyatt Earp in a skirt.)

totaldisbelief - I always planned on it - just hard to do with a smile on my face and a hole in my heart. People here understand that.

BTW - what are you going to do for YOURSELF?

Well, the first thing I am going to do is try to do something with my WS, even if it's just lunch. Second, I am going to do anything I can think of to disrupt POSOM's "special day" (uh-oh, I just threw up again)- for instance, flowers from me will be arriving at her desk at work. I am also thinking of sending her an e-card, every hour on the hour, all day long. Last but not least, I will spend a nice evening at home with my kids.

Ya know, I'm just visualizing this, and I think it's a beautiful, beautiful thing: WW is going to have two bunches of flowers on her desk and will be asked by her co-workers who they're from:
"Um, well, the roses are from my husband, and the carnation/spring mix is from my boyfriend..."

Waywards have no shame. Make sure you send a pretty bunch, total.

I'm not sure if she's "out of the closet" at work, except to one or two of her enabler's. I have lots of friends who work there, so I think she is somewhat careful. That would be quite the conflict thought, wouldn't it. At any rate, that very same conflict will be going on inside her heart and mind, which is where it really counts.

I sent her some flowers at work on POSOM's birthday, for the same purpose, and I don't even think she knows that I know it's his birthday.

I am following Dr. Harley's advice to actively pursue her, and do anything I can to create conflict in the affair.

Make them a pretty bunch, total.

TD thats not going to work. I forgot to tell you, me you abc098,savemymarriage, fightforlife and andy are all going out drinking on valentines. I invited Wondering, but hes too busy with his wife.

Are you saying you're not in?

Okay...who's the designated driver? You guys aren't going out without one.

We'll call a cab and specifically ask for a male driver. Will that be OK?

Okay, but you guys all have to check in with the board as soon as you get home, and if we'd better not see lots of typos and run-on sentences...

Typos and runon sentences, how would that be any different from any of my other posts? I am the king of making an [censored] of myself, but its ok no one here knows me in RL.

Me and SMM are being rowdy today a bit, you should grab a slice.

Sorry to hijack TD.

Total, although I agree with you sending the flowers, I want you to remember one thing about Plan A, NO EXPECTATIONS.

You send her the flowers and she will:
1. do nothing, say nothing(most likely scenario)
2. say, "Oh I never knew you loved me so much, POSOM is OUTTA here" (most UNLIKELY)
3. throw them in the garbage
4. bring them to your front yard, set them on fire, and do a "get rid of my husband because I have a OM" dance

So, what does that mean? That means that the REASON that you are sending your WW the flowers is because YOU WANT TO SEND HER FLOWERS. You would send flowers to her if you were in a happy marriage and you are just showing her what you will continue to offer her IF she ends her A and decides to come home. Added bonus about the flowers, she will either not tell OM about them, leading her to lie, or she WILL tell him about the flowers and how much she hates them, leading her to lie again. Either way, you shot a cupid's arrow into that nest.

About the email every hour, I HOPE you were kidding. That would be a MAJOR creeptacular event for me, even if I was madly in love with my H. Please reconsider this aspect of your plan for V-Day.

And to all of you BSs, know that this V-Day WILL be something that is on your mind and you WILL think about your WS, but it WILL get better. This is my second one around these parts, and to be honest, I am not really thinking about it too much. I KNOW that V-Day WILL mean something to me, but I have my 2 kiddos as my valentine's this year. I bought them a small stuffed toy and some chocolate. I am HAPPY about that.

Gotcha, bueno.

You're aware of the fact that totaldisbelief is Mormon, right? He doesn't drink.

Total, I LOVE your plan for Valentine's Day. Make that the biggest, most noticeable vase of roses you can find. And send those ecards. Just bombard her with them. Every time she opens a new one, or even sees it in her inbox, she's going to feel crappier and crappier.

I think you just found your designated driver, Reynolds.

Sorry didn't realize about the drinking TD, no intention to offend at all.

Say the word and I will take the post down.

Mormons make wonderful designated drivers.

Now if you want to really hit it with a Vday gift...forget the flowers and send her an edible arrangement for valentines. Or send the flowers also. The edible arrangements will be different and her coworkers will flock to it. Her coworkers will brag about you to her "you're so lucky girl" and about how thoughtful you are.

She'll end up sharing with her coworkers and have to listen to them teh entire time talk about what a nice gift it is.

Trust me on this one. You'll thank me.

I guess I'm the designated driver, since I don't drink.

Scotty, I think I have the no expectations thing down pretty well. As you said, I would be sending her the flowers on Valentine's Day anyway. I already know what her response will be anyway- she will send me a brief email, which will read "Thank you for my flowers, they are beautiful." Been there, done that already.

Email greeting cards is kind of a tradition with us, something we have always done on various occasions, even when we were both working here in the same office together. My thought is to have me on her mind all day long.


She will tell POSOM about the flowers, and it will piss him off. He is very possessive (of my wife, oops, just threw up again).

Reynolds, no offense taken, no need to apologize.

That's what you call a MIL and a half.

So, last night as DD11, DS10 and I are sitting together watching TV, amid all of the Valentine's Day commercials, DD11 asks "What are going to do for Valentine's Day, daddy?" I said, "I don't know baby, I guess I'll spend it with you." She laid her head on my shoulder and held my hand- didn't say a word, didn't have to.

I shared this with WS today. She replied, "I know VDay is going to be hard. I thought you and I could have lunch, and then spend the evening with the kids."

So I guess POSOM will not get to spend his "anniversary" (there goes that pesky gag reflex again) with WS. I figure that means they will be "celebrating" tomorrow night (another reflexive gag). So, in a pre-emptive strike, I put a heartfelt VDay card in the mail to her today, should arrive tomorrow. That should really set the tone for their evening.

Anything I can do to create conflict between WS and the POSOM.

This is a good sign. Even if she does see him tomorrow, she's still spending the actual anniversary (yeah, that got my gag reflex too) with you and the kids.

Good job Total! Keep up the good work.

Just heard from MIL that WS is coming over to dinner with me and the kids tonight.

MIL has been coming over to my house twice a week to cook/clean and spend time with the kids. (By the way, she lives 45 mins away, so this is no small inconvenience.)

She called WS at work and invited her to have dinner with the family. (How dysfunctional is this when the MIL is cooking dinner and asking the WS to come over to her own house and have dinner with her husband and kids?)

At any rate, looks like family dinner tonight. Last time she came over to eat with us, she was crying a couple of times during dinner. I think looking around at the entire family happily eating dinner together was too much for her. MIL noticed that, and so did I.

All I can say is, my MIL rocks.

Love those old fashioned no BS mils huh? When I exposed mine almost came home from arizona to straighten WW out.

Love it.

MIL of the year

So, WS came over for dinner with the family last night. It went great, even better than expected. WS lingered for a long time. I had a chance to spend some time alone with her, we had a nice talk. Ended the night with a couple of real, honest-to-God, husband and wife kisses. (This after she informed me on New Year's Day that she would hug me, but she would no longer kiss me.) She appeared overwhelmingly guilty the entire time. I think the conflict is building inside.

I still feel that she will be with OM tonight, but I hope that last night's time with husband and kids will ruin it. That and the heartfelt card that will be arriving in her mailbox this afternoon.

It still sucks thinking of them together, but I can't control what she does, only what I do.

I get that guilt feeling from my WW too sometimes TD. But as soon as she has contact with OM, it seems like it subsides. Even tho most of our contact now is through text or over the phone, I can always tell when he has text her or she is with him. Completely different person.

I does seem like you've made some progress at least with the kisses. I'd love to get that back too.

Hang tough TD.

Lost- I know exactly what you mean, I can also tell when my WS has been with POSOM. He has a very foul mouth, and that rubs off on her. Any time she has excessive potty mouth (which is completely out of character for her), I know she's been around him.

They really are like completely different people. It is so bizarre.

TD, have you considered asking your wife to go on a little trip with you? A couple of days without the kids, just the two of you? Maybe someplace you've gone before for an anniversary or some other special occasion? My H did this twice during my A. The second time, he took me to Solvang for our anniversary. We had spent many anniversaries there, and I think that trip was what really made me see that there was still something there and that I had to give my M another chance. The A didn't end right away because of that trip, but it did end shortly after.

Now, I know your wife may turn you down, so you do need to go into this without any expectations, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to try. Getting her completely away from the OM for even a few days and conjuring up some of those old feelings for you would be the best thing you could do right now, if you could pull it off.

Just something to consider.

Gotta love a no-BS MIL.

My former MIL invited the affair partner into their home to celebrate the holidays with my XWW.

That's OK, he probably had more in common with them than I did, since my IL's and the OM were all about the same age.

Blech!

That's a good idea writer1. We actually did this right after D-day 1. Right now, I have a hard time getting her to agree to anything alone with me, other than lunch. I may have to work my way up to it.

Enlightened, I am so lucky that my in-law's are so dead-set against the A, and so supportive of me and the kids. Part of MIL's letter to WS read, "You may think you love POSOM, but he chose to go after a married woman, which makes him nothing in my book."

Like I said before, Wyatt Earp in a skirt.

So, Valentine's Day has come and gone, and all of us BS' are still surviving. Mine was uneventful, although I didn't spend any of it with WS. She had decided over the weekend that she and I would have lunch together on V-Day, and she would spend the evening with the kids at her house (minus dad). Well, that didn't sit too well with the kids, who vocally protested. DD11- "Mommy said she wanted us to go over to her house on V-Day." What did you say? "I said 'Why don't YOU come over to OUR house." I'm thinking this is not going to go over well with WS.

I had flowers delivered to WS' desk about 11:00am. One of my friends told me that she put on FB about 11:30- "Normally I don't mind Mondays, but today is different." (I don't look at her FB anymore, but occassionally my friends will fill me in.) As predicted, I got the cursory "thank you for my flowers email", but lunch never happened.

I went home and MIL was cooking dinner, assuming that the kids were going home with WS. Funny thing is, WS never showed up. After about an hour of waiting, I called her. "Are you coming to get the kids?" She replies, "No, they didn't act like they wanted to come." I say, "Well, they are expecting you, sitting here waiting for you." She says, "Well, I have invited my girlfriend over, so I am not coming." I say, "You know you are welcome to come over and eat with us." She says, "No, I'm not coming."

I then proceeded to tell her about DS10's progress report from school. He has gone from all A's-B's to failing two subjects. His teacher says "He always looks worried, as if he has the weight of the world on his shoulders." (Well, he does.) What does WS say to that? "This is not my fault! All of these problems that the kids are having are not all my fault!" (Yes, the fog seemed especially thick on V-Day.)

At this point, I pulled out the stick of Plan A. In a very kind and respectful manner, I pointed out to WS that yes, in fact, the problems that our children are now experiencing are a direct result of our situation. Our children are suffering because you are no longer in our home, and our family is now incomplete. "Well, thanks alot", she says. I say, "I'm sorry if that offends you, but it is the truth." We had a very long discussion, during which she continued to fog-babble, and I remained remarkably calm and cool. Some of her best gems: "You don't want me to spend time with the kids, you are just trying to get me to come over to the house, and I don't want to be at the house", "You think this is all about POSOM", "I am so confused, I don't know what to do", and my personal favorite- "I feel like you think of me as your possession".

(By the way, I know what you're thinking, but DD18 stopped by WS' house and verified that she was there and was in fact with her girlfriend, not POSOM.)

So, fast forward to today. WS sends me an email this morning, very sweet- wants to come over to the house tonight and spend time with the kids. I ask if she would like to have dinner with us- she says yes. ??????? What is this- guilt? did some of my Plan A stick actually break thru the fog? bi-polar?

Who knows? All I know for sure is: the roller coaster ride continues................................

TD,

Almost every active wayward displays many of the same symptoms as Bi-polar disorder. I was a completely different person during my A. Looking back on it now, I wouldn't even have recognized myself. Generally, this is a symptom of the fog and clears up once the person is no longer actively wayward. If your wife didn't display any Bi-polar tendencies prior to her A, I wouldn't be too worried.

The roller coaster is a very appropriate analogy. That's exactly how it felt during my A. My emotions were so all over the place that it makes me dizzy just to think about it now. I could swing from being sure that I wanted to end my M and be with the OM to being sure that I wanted to end my A and work on my M dozens of times a day. So, if your wife seems unstable and like she's all over the place - it's because she is. Anyone who hasn't experienced it before simply cannot fathom how emotionally unstablizing an A can be.

Just hang in there. You're doing good.

Nicely handled TD, a lot of guys would have let her have it.

So, last night WS comes over to the house, has dinner with the family and hangs out for a couple of hours. Everything was perfectly normal, right up until the time she got in her car and drove away.

I would be interested to hear if anyone else has encountered this thing that my WS keeps saying to me- "I feel like you think of me as your possession."

She has said this to me on several occassions (of course, never before she was wayward). I just don't understand it at all.

Any FWW out there ever feel this way?

Is this just more fog-babble?

Wish I could help you, but I never said that during my A, and I don't recall ever feeling that way.

Have you asked her to explain what she means by this?

I think I can address that because I remember saying something like that. Not sure what your marriage was like preA. I know my husband had a lot of IB (read he was never home). When he would refer to me it was often with the phrase "and the kids."
As, my DW....and the kids are coming later. or I have to go see DW...and the kids.

When he discovered my A and behaved as if he was jealous I felt that it was more the behavior of a two year old who is content playing with his little red car until another child picks up little blue car...now the boy must have little blue car as it is his FAVORITE.

His anger soon turned to hurt and pain and I really got to see the extent of what I had done so the 2 year old analogy was way off; however, when I ask about his excessive IB, he states he just thought he could enjoy all the things he liked and still come home to have me and the kids there so he could enjoy that too. He had no idea how I had put my life on hold to accomodate him....until I stopped.

I'm not saying you were like that at all but that is some of the thoughts that went through my head as far as being a possession.

This sounds like a cop out. She is making up leverage why she should leave you.

The fact is, we belong to our spouses. We are not two but one. Hollywood thinks differently to this. They say we are independent, and magically we each make the other happy.

In business we say: under promise and over perform. Hollywood attempts to do this the other way round. So why so many film star divorces?

Yes Writer1, I have asked, and she always replies, "I don't know, it's just how I feel."

TDB, here's my take from a BS point of view:

This is just more fog babble from waywards way of thinking. You see the problem is when waywards first get into an A they feel entitled. This entitlement makes them feel that no one can tell them what to do. They get pretty comfortable with this if the A goes on secretly long enough. They begin to re-write your marriage history and discover to their amazement that their BS has ALWAYS been controlling and possesive. Then they get discovered. The BS takes steps to break up the A like "you need to stop seeing or talking to OP. At this point they've already previously decided you're controlling and now...well that just proves it because they'll say something like:

"I can hang out with whoever I want to and you don't have anything to say about it. You can't control me, I don't have to divulge anything to you. What do you think, you own me or something? I'm not your possession!"

And there you have the answer to your question. JMHO

TD - You may or may not have done anything to deserve that 'label', but I think it shows insecurity and/or fear on her part. I don't recall your thread, but my WW used to refer to herself as the 'hired help' and she would say that marriage is 'legalized prostitution.' Both of those things still get under my skin, because I feel marriage is a partnership. I may be out earning a paycheck so that we can enjoy a certain lifestyle, but her raising our DS was probably MORE important to me. I can get another job, but my options with a child are much more limited.

IMHO, she owns her feelings, but you should/might be able to influence them over time. Lord knows I've tried that with my WW with limited success.

TD, what do YOU do when your WW says that? How do you react and how do you feel? It's obviously something that you think about long after she has said it. How many times has she said it to you? What were the two of you discussing when she said it? Just trying to see if you can figure this out.