@Total -

Good for you! In no certain terms do you NOT whip out the Stick when they want to continue there affair. Exposure is a way that you express that you are willing to fight for your marriage. Well being angry and indignant that your WS spouse is still in the affair is another way to show that you are willing to fight for your marriage.

I think it is time to re-expose to family and friends again. If she was giving you a bunch of bull crap, she was also giving it to friends and family. Especially your SIL. She is the one that helped her separate from your family. Have her put some pressure on her affair.

You now have the OM's number use it continuously let him in no uncertain terms that WS is married and has kids. He needs to let your family be. Create conflict. Is he going to take you to court? Not. People like him are cowards.

No doubt by you going dark maybe had the affect of pushing her in the direction of OM. If she is angry at you, parrot the words, "I'm fighting for my marriage." Over and over again. So her needs aren't being met. Either she lets you meet them or if she wants to go to OM. Put the pressure on him.

She is cake eating. So remember that you are showing the stick, but that you also have the carrot. Please don't be a doormat. Let her know that as long she continues with OM that you have the stick.

This isn't really terribly surprising. It was pretty obvious that your wife was still seeing the OM. As I said before, there was always only one reason for her to move out.

Along with the above suggestions, I also think you should tell your kids that their mother is still seeing the OM. They are your best weapon to kill this A right now. You can bet that seeing them hurt and disappointed in her is going to affect your wife far more deeply than anything else. I know you may be reluctant to do this because you don't want to hurt them anymore, but they really need to know what's going on. Seeing the pain she is continually causing them may (hopefully) bring your wife around.

Part of the problem is that it's very difficult to do an effective Plan A when your wife isn't living with you.

I think it's time to contact the Harley's directly.

Hey sorry to hear your setback happened. Not hyjacking at all, but I am having some issues too and called to talk to Steve Hartley for Monday. He has a number of morning appointments open or at least he did twelve hours ago.

The vets give great advice and I have nothing but respect for anyone who will help someone in our shoes. I figured $200 was worth it though for 45 minutes of one on one.

Good luck and hang in there.

I'm so sorry! I remember how painful "re-discovery" was, each time it happened. I have to agree with Writer. It's not surprising since she is still in her own apartment. If she wasn't seeing OM and wanted to recover the marriage, she'd move home. What better way to show that you are remorseful and want to commit to the marriage??

I think you have to show disapproval at this uncovering of your WW lying to you about contact. I would be inclined to go to Plan B. She seems to be getting enough of you and the family to fill the need while she continues her affair. Time to stop that and let her see what it REALLY looks like. Just my opinion.

You've done a great job with executing the Plan A. I don't think I would last very long in plan A with my H living in an apartment and seeing OW. In fact, he did move out for a short time when I found he had asked OW to marry him (I made him leave). I didn't take his calls and I filed for divorce (he didn't know it yet). But it made a huge impact on him. His choice was becoming real.

I'm glad you didn't beat up OM. He surely deserved it, but you are right. He has nothing to lose. He may even being trying to goad you into something.

Hang in there!

Scotty, love ya girl, but I'm going to advise that he go to Plan B immediately and file. His wife has become comfortable with the needs he's been supplying. Meanwhile, OM has been supplying her other needs. WW has had time to start building her 'new life' and still needs her BH to help tidying up the loose ends.

I think she needs to see legal papers. I think she needs to realize that her live is going to be very much hampered without her BS.

I could be wrong on this one, but I don't think so.

Okay folks, thanks for all the input. I am not at all surprised that she is talking to him. I have suspected it all along. The only thing about this that I consider a setback is the way that I interacted with my wife. I wish I had enough self-control to express my displeasure in a calm, rational manner. But as some of you know, actually seeing them together is intensely stressful. Oh well, something to continue to improve about myself.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy about the way I handled OM. I basically told him to take off, and he slithered away. I also had a little fun with him on the phone. Apparently, he has major anger issues. As soon as I mentioned taking him to court, he freaked out. I just let him rant and rave, and never lost my cool. If he loses it like that with WS, it will definitely backfire. I think it is just a matter of time.

I had a fairly decent talk with WS. I remained fairly calm, even though she was in full fog babble. "I don't love you. I have been unhappy for a long time. I still care about you, but I don't love you as a wife should love her husband." (That last one is my favorite.)

The kids went home with WS, and I have been sitting here alone, trying to sort it out. I have decided to try to continue Plan A for awhile longer, but I know that Plan B is coming, unless the A implodes. I definitely understand why you can't Plan A indefinitely. Thanks to all for your help. If I couldn't come here to vent, I would probably be in Plan FU by now

TD, I would normally suggest staying the Plan A course, but in your case I would strongly suggest you go to Plan B immediately. I think you're at a pivotal moment here. I think that will turn her, if you do it now, and not give her a cushion any longer. Make her face the concept of a new world without you and your kids.

MB, the advice from DrH is CLEAR. Men need to Plan A for up to 6 months. That is WITH a cake-eating WS. There have been MANY people on MB who HAVE done a Plan A(even had some with altercations with OP, Not2fun comes to mind) and have still recovered their marriages. I am NOT quick to send a man into plan B. Separation is RISKY. Out of sight out of mind. Also, it should NOT be done as a "wake up call" to get the WS to come back to the marriage. It should be done when the BS has done their very best in plan A, used BOTH the carrot AND the stick of Plan A, and have enough LB left to recover of that is what happens. Also, the BS needs to be able to sit in their Plan B and KNOW that they did EVERYTHING to try to save their marriage.

Even knowing that I did EVERYTHING, I still doubted my Plan A and timing of Plan B at moments.

Total, just remember to stick to your plan. No one here is going to fault you for what you did with OM. Some here, me included may have done MUCH WORSE. You did fine. Now you KNOW where his weak point is. You have made your WW appear to be not worth the trouble to OM. Good work. Pressure on the affair. Keep it up.

MB,

I met with the biggest divorce shark in town when she told me she was moving out. He advised that in our state you must be separated for a year before you can file divorce papers. You can have a separation agreement, but it's not necessary unless there is a custody battle. I have the kids f/t, so no issue there. She was livid when I told her I had met with this particular attorney. I didn't follow a lot of his advice b/c it was all leading to D, but I have taken the necessary steps to protect myself and my kids.

I am not going to go Plan B just yet, because I want to leave with a strong Plan A. I know that day is coming, though. I do respect your opinion and value your input.

I don't believe SH has hard and fast rules on how long to Plan A. It really is up to the BS and how much the BS can take.

I side on the Plan B side. Go dark. Not to wake her up. It's to remove the cake eating and let you heal and see things objectively.

This is terrible pain and I can empathize.

But SH doesn't put a set time on how long to Plan A. I belive the 6 month period is the longest he recommends and not necessarily tied to a WW.

Think hard about Plan B. There's been a few people on here who have done them well.

But understand that Plan B is for you, not for her. It's to shelter you and let you withdraw from her a bit and give you protection for a period so you can think straight.

I'm just not satisfied with my Plan A yet. I want to finish it strong, to give Plan B the most impact. I don't feel my love for her slipping yet, because I can see that she is so conflicted. Also, it will be next to impossible to do an effective Plan B over Christmas, especially with the four kids.

I can handle Plan A for awhile longer........I think I can, I think I can, I think I can..........

@totals - you did the right thing. The OM ran away when confronted. That smells of weakness. Women love strong men. You've created a nice contrast effect.

You - I Love You. I'm going to fight for my marriage.
OM - I have no respect for you. When confronted I will slither off and hide under my rock.

The nice thing about MB is that all the planning is on you. You get to decide. You are in control.

It was nice letting your taker out for a little joy ride against OM wasn't it?

Remember Plan A isn't always about being nice. It's also about using the stick. So next time you use the stick what are you going to do different?

TD,

Scotland is giving you poor advice, IMHO. There is NO hard and fast rule for Plan A - re recommends 6 months for men IF THEY CAN DO IT. That's something I've never connected with - I couldn't do it emotionally for anywhere near that length of time.

There is no reason to continue in Plan A, since you have seen for yourself that she is cake-eating and still spewing fog babble. I also would not go to Plan B. I think it's time to show her that you can play hardball. I recommend telling her you are sick of the way she's treating you, and that you're going to divorce her, and CLEARLY spell out (again) how UN-FANTASY-LIKE this divorced reality will be. Then go through with the divorce, unless she comes back, broken and humbled, to you. You are not in a marriage right now. You're in a horrible limbo. Get out, man.

Good luck,
Arpeggi

I respect your decision, td. In the end, it IS your call. I am glad to spoke with the attorney, and I'm not surprised by your WW's reaction to that. Attorneys = potential change in the cozy set-up.

Here's what I see happening with her: she is getting settled in her new life. You helped her work through the adjustment of losing the full-time enjoyment of her children. You helped her ease into her new 'single' life, always there to help her, always there to comfort and support her.

She has responded in true wayward fashion by taking, taking, taking. I think she feels entitled, not grateful, for what you have been doing for her, or she will very soon.

I think it's going to take a strict Plan B for this one, and I'm concerned that is should happen sooner in this case, not later.

Like I said, your call. td. I'll support you either way.

I have to agree with the two posts immediately above. She's cake-eating big time and probably enjoying having both worlds....her family and the OM.

I guess I feel that continuing along the same path of Plan A seems like on some level aiding and abetting her lifestyle choices. Especially after the blantant run-in with she and her OM. I guess I don't get continuing to provide your attention, concern and love to a person who is disrespecting you, her children and her marriage. Seems she's not feeling too many consequences from her choices.....she's got the family, the holiday feel-good fun stuff, a pretty responsibility free life, her own apartment and a boyfriend on the side. Sure, there's some pressures and conflicts, but this has been going on for a while and she seems to be continuing on.

I feel for you. You are dealing with a really wayward wife, raising four kids pretty much by yourself, running the household, holding down a job and generally being a very nice guy. This is a lot for anyone, and I don't see whatever the current plan is having much impact on your wife's willingness to change her behavior and give up her boyfriend.

For you, something needs to change.

Time is now to plan B. Hand WW the plan B letter today. If you can't see her today then email or text her this evening.

@total -

Don't go into Plan B. Of course she is cake-eating. Duh! You knew that. Plan A takes that into account. In fact I would say that Plan A implicitly takes into account that WS is a cake-eater. If she wasn't a cake-eater you would have no way to Plan A. WS would have told you she didn't want anything to do with you and disappeared out of your life.

Only go from Plan A to Plan B when your no longer able to contain your Taker and the emotional toll on your well-being is unhealthy. Being mad and angry at seeing your WS with OM is normal. One incident of LB on your part does not necessitate you going from Plan A to Plan B.

Plan D is implemented when you have a wayward that is using marital assets to continue their affair. Or in the event the wayward is exposing children to an unhealthy environment involving OM. To me these issues are not there. Do not go to Plan D.

Your Taker generating an Angry Outburst, if anything, is telling you what you need to work on. How do you convert these outbursts into a proper stick of your Plan A?

IMHO, I think that you had a larger $LB than LB. Also don't discount the OM slinking off after your confrontation. That had to deplete her $LB with the OM.

Remember your WS has a big reality-popping event looming over her. Her financial situation. Reality has this pernicious habit of penetrating the Fog. Several things could happen as a result of this.

One, is that the reality of her situation pushes her out of the Fog and Fantasy. IOW, she actually starts to come to the realization that in order for her to have her EN of Financial meet she needs to be with you. This gives you a better ability to meet the 4 intimate needs.

The second is that she will continue in her Fog and continue to generate further consequences of her waywardness till she hits rock bottom.

-more to come-

I think maritalbliss has this spot on for your Plan A tactics. IMHO you need to have her coming to you for her needs to be met. Continue with your dark days and when she comes to you for needs to be met you will give it to her in spades.

So far you have been initiating contact. The time you give her a darkness, she comes to you. You need to teach her that when she needs to have her needs met she should come to you. This is Pavlovian.

You know that she is a cake-eater. Therefore OM is not meeting some of her needs. Get her trained coming to you to meet her needs. At some point she will be coming to you for more and more of her needs.

[tj]
@marital how can we give this some more bite without going into Plan B? I really believe he needs to get WS back into home to really shine with his Plan A. I think that if he can get her back into the marital home and when he goes to Plan B the consequences for WS will be even greater.
[/tj]

Hello! Welcome back to the intention of Plan A; to draw the WS back into the marriage.

Cake eating? Yes! So make a better cake!

A solid Plan A for an appropriate length of time is what makes Plan B effective. Without Plan A, there is no Plan B.

And, Plan B is to provide a picture of what divorce would be like.

You are laying a beautiful, comfy rug beneath her. It's warm, inviting, and attractive... and then you yank that sum b(*&( right out from under her, and leave her with that bargain bin boyfriend.

"This is what I am capable of giving you, and that will only happen when it's just me and you. Not me, you, and douchenozzle."

Be aware, TD, that while you may not feel a loss of love at this point, you usually don't feel it until your LB$ balance is critically low to begin with. This is the second part of Plan B; to conserve what LB$ balance you have left by ending contact, and thus ending continued large LB$ withdrawals.

Note I said conserve. While the A is active, even without contact, your LB$ will slowly continue to dwindle. You are simply protecting it from large withdrawals.

You want to move to Plan B while her LB$ account with you is still in some good standing, so that you have the strength to succeed in Plan B.

I believe that's the problem with td's Plan A. It's been all carrot and no stick. I'm not sure what the best approach would be. But if td isn't going to Plan B, he needs to start applying the stick. I suspect that would be limiting his WW's exposure to her children and their activities. Limiting her exposure to the EN's he's supplying.