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TD - my wife probably has similar thoughts - at least when all of this started. Your wife and my wife both know how much we love them. That 'weakness' on our part is being exploited by them. I might be going against some MB principles here (or not), what are you doing for YOU? Are you developing any new hobbies/interests or rekindling old ones that you neglected? If not, START NOW! It's some of the advice the vets have given me, be less available NOT more. That contradicts the UA principle, but I think there's a balance here. It also allows you to expand your social circle, which may help you down the road.

My wife's well-being is very important to me too - but that has its limits. I told her I would cover her under my employer's insurance for the rest of the year and I'm committed to that. I gave my word on that and that means something to ME.

Hang in there!


BS(me)- 45
WW - 41
D-day 1 - (PA) 01/2011
DS - 6
Exposure: early 02/2011
Started Plan B - 7/11
AndyM #2485042 03/04/11 04:00 PM
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With 4 kids at home, I have no shortage of things to keep me busy, and doing things with them really is my bliss.

I do find that any sort of physical activity or exercise is therapeutic.

I also have a punch-list of home improvement projects, which is also a hobby of mine. Seems like just work, but I actually enjoy learning to do new things, so it works for me.


BS(me)- 44
WS- 41
D-day #1- (EA) 08/02/2010
D-day #2- (PA) 09/24/2010
WS moved out- 11/11/2010
NC- 02/21/2011
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WS came over for dinner with the family Saturday night, and acted completely normal. She and I sat together alone for over an hour and talked, and she was acting like her old self.

Went to church on Sunday- same thing, acting completely normal.

After church, DD11 remarked "I had almost forgotten what mommy acted like when she was normal."

Could the fog be lifting?


BS(me)- 44
WS- 41
D-day #1- (EA) 08/02/2010
D-day #2- (PA) 09/24/2010
WS moved out- 11/11/2010
NC- 02/21/2011
Plan A
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TD - I hope that's the case! That would be awesome!


BS(me)- 45
WW - 41
D-day 1 - (PA) 01/2011
DS - 6
Exposure: early 02/2011
Started Plan B - 7/11
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Originally Posted by totaldisbelief
WS came over for dinner with the family Saturday night, and acted completely normal. She and I sat together alone for over an hour and talked, and she was acting like her old self.

Went to church on Sunday- same thing, acting completely normal.

After church, DD11 remarked "I had almost forgotten what mommy acted like when she was normal."

Could the fog be lifting?

Fog lifting = the wayward takes responsibility for their actions without blame shifting.

Fog-less-ness is not merely a pleasant evening or two together. Fog-lifting requires an epiphany of conscience.
Fog lifting for REAL = heartfelt remorse.

A WW enjoying pleasant family time while still maintaining her "right" to date/see/visit/dream about the OM, is what every WW wants. A happy husband & kids AND her OM on the side.


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Originally Posted by Pepperband
A WW enjoying pleasant family time while still maintaining her "right" to date/see/visit/dream about the OM, is what every WW wants. A happy husband & kids AND her OM on the side.

BTW ..... What I described above is Plan A (carrot) in action.
Meeting WW's needs for family time while making preparations for eventual Plan B (if necessary).

Plan A (carrot & stick) without making preparations for Plan B is not in your best interests.

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Heartfelt remorse is not :
"I'm sorry I hurt you."

Heartfelt remorse is:
"I am sorry I did what I did. It was wrong. I was wrong."

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Pep,

Thanks for the feedback. I agree with everything that you have said. I am under no illusion that the fog is gone, I just think I might see a break in the clouds.

I have been through one false recovery, so I know what that's about. Today will make two weeks since NC has been established this time, although it is difficult for me to verify, as WS is not living with us at this time. I have learned to pay very little attention to what she says, and focus on her actions. Based on her actions, and my snooping, I believe that NC is in place.

For the 10 days or so after NC, she was extremely depressed, inconsolable. For the past few days, she is still sad, but is acting more like her old, pre-A self (humble, concerned for others, able to carry on a normal conversation w/o focusing on herself, not arrogant and belligerent and self-absorbed). If she suddenly becomes "giddy", I will know that NC has been broken.

Last time, she lasted three weeks. A few things are different this time around:

*Last time she established NC at my urging, this time she decided to do it on her own.
*She is now receiving therapy and is taking anti-D meds.
*She is now receiving counseling from our church.

Whether all of this makes any difference, we shall see.


As far as heartfelt remorse, she has expressed that. She knows and acknowledges that this whole situation is completely wrong.

Again, I have no illusions that this is over, just thinking I might see a little break in the clouds.


BS(me)- 44
WS- 41
D-day #1- (EA) 08/02/2010
D-day #2- (PA) 09/24/2010
WS moved out- 11/11/2010
NC- 02/21/2011
Plan A
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Hi. I'm Muslim. I am trying to end an affair. My husband is Muslim too. I am not 'caught' in the sense he has confronted me. I am trying to make a decision that is right. It has seemed he has an idea and has chose not to confront or address this issue. By not doing so, I am left with the decision to say or not say. If I don't say how do we address what has gone wrong? How does he make a clear decision on if he wants to stay with a wife who had an affair? I can't make a decision for him to stay or go or work at this marriage or not, but I cannot understand how we or he can work on it without confronting. Not sure what to do - to tell or not to tell. Do men want to wish it away and go on with the marriage? I can understand if that is the case and I wont say if that is the less painful thing to do.


"Visioning my tomorrow will help me live through today"
3/8/11 D-Day
4/5/11 (surgery) My healing begins.
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NoComfort - I'm new here, but given the cultural differences this is tough. The advice on this site will be to tell your husband about the affair, but what little I know of Islam and its teachings, especially shi'ra law, that could be dangerous for you. One of the vets should be along soon and they'll be able to give you better guidance.


BS(me)- 45
WW - 41
D-day 1 - (PA) 01/2011
DS - 6
Exposure: early 02/2011
Started Plan B - 7/11
AndyM #2490927 03/21/11 12:29 PM
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Hey, TD, haven't heard from you in awhile.

How are things going?


Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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Things seem to be going reasonably well. Today makes exactly 4 weeks since NC. Although I have no way of absolutely verifying it, I do still have some verifications in place, and everything looks to be above-board. More importantly, her behavior suggests that the A is over. WS' entire demeanor is changing. Her self-centeredness seems to be melting away. She has been sticking to her proposed plan of spending more time with the kids, which leaves her very little time for extra-curricular activities.

It appears that she is over the worst of the withdrawal. She has not seemed depressed or sad, but she also hasn't been "giddy" or overly happy. When she established NC previously, and then re-established contact with OM, I suspected it almost immediately, because she almost instantly went from extremely depressed to extremely happy, almost like a junkie getting another hit of their preferred poison. Now, she is acting more like what my children describe as "normal" for her. (I think I mentioned in a previous post that DD11 remarked that she had forgotten what mommy acts like when she's normal.)

The most startling change has been in the way that she relates to me. In the past, she has been very guarded in her conversations with me. It has been almost as if we were strangers. When we talked, it was just small talk, nothing personal. Except for talking about our kids, our conversations were very "sterile", and also very quick and concise. For the past couple of weeks, we have been having actual conversations, and she has been sharing details of her personal life, (her running, her job, etc.). We stood in our driveway the other night and talked for over 1/2 hour, and it was just so natural.

The other thing that is changing is her aversion to physical contact with me. This has been a real source of discomfort for her, and of course, I am craving any sort of affection from her, so I would jump at the chance to hold her hand or hug her. Since she seemed so uncomfortable, I decided to back off and let her initiate that, and see what happens.
In the past week, she has hugged me twice (real hugs, not the "I will let you hug me, but I won't hug you back" kind of hugs). Also, she slipped up and called me "baby" Saturday (which is her normal term of endearment for me).

I invited her over for dinner with the kids Saturday night, and she came. When she has come in the past, she has always acted like a guest- rang the doorbell, sat in the living room while I cooked, asked for permission to go to the bathroom, asked for permission to get something to drink, etc. This time, she walked right in, helped me cook, helped with the dishes, and just basically acted like she was at home.

We also spent some time alone together Saturday, which is the first since she moved out.

I am trying to guard against expectations, but things seem to be moving in the right direction.

I would say that her feelings for me have returned to the point of what Dr. H calls "caring love", but I don't think we have reached the threshold of "romantic love" yet.

My mission is to continue to make LB$ deposits, and avoid love-busters, to push that balance over the top.

Wish me luck.

I would be interested in any assessments of this, especially from the vets, and FWS'.


BS(me)- 44
WS- 41
D-day #1- (EA) 08/02/2010
D-day #2- (PA) 09/24/2010
WS moved out- 11/11/2010
NC- 02/21/2011
Plan A
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My only question @TD is, what are your requirements for you to recover your marriage?

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My requirements are basically that we will follow the MB principles to the letter: NC letter, NC for life, EP's, etc.


BS(me)- 44
WS- 41
D-day #1- (EA) 08/02/2010
D-day #2- (PA) 09/24/2010
WS moved out- 11/11/2010
NC- 02/21/2011
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I'm glad things seem to be going well.

Baby steps.


Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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TD, I don't have much to offer in the way of advice or assessment, as I haven't seen enough, nor experienced recovery myself. What I do have to offer is encouragement. GREAT WORK.

Make sure that you don't set that bar of recovery too low. Contact the Harleys for extra help whenever needed.


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

THANK YOU
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Sorry, but this post is going to be lengthy:

WS came over last night and we had dinner as a family, after which, we rode together to kids' church/Scout activities. WS dropped me at home and took the kids to spend the night at her place. Later on, I needed to speak to her about DD18, so I gave her a call. She said she had put the kids to bed, and invited me to come over and talk. This is only the second time I have been invited to her place, other than to pick up/drop off kids.

We sat together on the sofa in her living room alone and talked for over an hour. I felt like this was a major step, as WS has avoided being alone with me. We were able to speak openly and honestly about everything, in a calm and controlled manner. I asked her point-blank about POSOM, and she again replied that he is "out of my life". I asked her if she was having any contact with him whatsoever, and she replied that she was not. Her actions seem to confirm this, as she seems to be over the worst of the withdrawal (it has been 4 weeks since NC). I have also confirmed as best I can, and have turned up no evidence to the contrary. I asked her if her days were getting any better. She replied, "Some days yes, and then I will have a down day." I said, "Me, too- it's kind of like a roller coaster, isn't it?" She said, "Yes, that's exactly what it's like."

Our conversation was too long to cover in its entirety, but we did have some interesting exchanges. I told her that I love her, and asked if she believed me. She replied, "Yes, I know that you do love me, but I don't love you as much as I should, and I don't know if those feelings will ever come back." I told her that I believe the feelings are coming back, and that I believe she does love me. She replied, "Maybe, but I don't think I love you enough."

We got into the subject of the A. She told me that she knows that I don't believe her when she says that she was unhappy, and that led to the A. She began to cry, and she said, "I have had lots of men flirt with me over the past 22 years, and I have never given any of them the time of day- so why did I do it this time? How did I let this happen?" I told her that I do believe that she was unhappy, and that I was responsible for her unhappiness because I failed to meet her emotional needs. I told her that I am continuing to make changes to myself, in order to be a better husband and to more fully meet her needs- my greatest fear is that she will never have an opportunity to experience it.


She said this- "All I do now is watch people, friends of ours, husbands and wives- and I watch them interacting with each other, and with their children, and I remember how that used to be us, and I just don't know if it can ever be that way again." I told her I don't think things can ever be exactly the same between us, but I believe they can be even better, because each of us will know that we have been tried and tested and have come out on the other side stronger than we were before.

I asked her if she believed that I can forgive her. She said, "I am getting there, but I still have my doubts." I asked her if she believed she could receive forgiveness from God. She replied, "I know that I can someday, but I don't know if I am ready. I just don't feel that I am remorseful enough." I told her that I think she is being too hard on herself, that if she recognizes that what she has done is wrong, and has stopped doing it, then forgiveness will come as she continues to do the right things.

She said that she is concerned that if she shows me any sign of affection, that she will be "sending me the wrong signal" or "getting my hopes up." (This was a kinder, gentler version of the "false hope" speech.) I asked her what she thought my "hopes" were. She said, "For our happily ever after." I told her she was right about that to a point, I do want our happily ever after- but I know that we are in for a tremendous amount of work, and that we are going to have to start at ground zero and re-build our marriage. I told her that I look at this as a tremendous opportunity to have the kind of marriage that we both want.

She said that she feels that I have a timeline that I am working with, and that all I really want right now is for her to come back home and do whatever I want. I told her that she is mistaken, that's not what I want at all. What I really want is for us to work on our relationship, so that we can both fall in love again. When you decide you want to come home, then we can talk about what we will both need to do to make that happen. She said "I agree with that."

Finally, I asked her if we could just start where we are, and try to get to know one another again. I asked her if she would stop worrying about "giving me the wrong idea" or "getting my hopes up", and just be herself, and do whatever feels natural, and let the chips fall where they may. She replied, "I'll try. I know you think I have given up on us, but I haven't- I just don't know if I will ever be able to feel the love for you that I once felt, and I don't know if what I feel now is enough."

"One day at a time", I said, "that's enough for me."

The fog is still present, but I believe it is beginning to lift.


BS(me)- 44
WS- 41
D-day #1- (EA) 08/02/2010
D-day #2- (PA) 09/24/2010
WS moved out- 11/11/2010
NC- 02/21/2011
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hurray

That's great news!!


Me:44 BS
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Married 22 yrs
Together 27 yrs
3 children: 14, 12, 9
EA then PA: Oct '09 - Aug '10
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Originally Posted by totaldisbelief
I told her that I love her, and asked if she believed me. She replied, "Yes, I know that you do love me, but I don't love you as much as I should, and I don't know if those feelings will ever come back."

This is a consequence of infidelity, and the statement is not based in fact - it is based on guilt. In her mind, she thinks "If I loved him as much as I should, I wouldn't have done this." Or, possibly "He deserves someone who loves him enough to be faithful."

This "not loving you enough" is something a lot of BSs have heard, myself included.

Has she read any of the materials, or shown any interest?


Part one of the "Coping with Infidelity" series of Q&A columns may help her understand her own choices a little more clearly, and aid alleviating some of that guilt;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5059_qa.html


Share it with her if you have an opportunity.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Oh, I know you're right HHH, it is absolutely based on guilt. I actually asked her right after she said it- "Do you feel unworthy of me?" She said, "Yes, of course I do." I said, "Well, I don't feel that way- I don't see you as being unworthy of me." She said, "Well, you should. You should be angry with me. You should see me as a terrible person." I replied, "You are not a terrible person. You are a wonderful person who made a mistake."

She is somewhat familiar with MB principles. She is the one who actually found the website. I gave her a copy of HNHN, which she promised to read, but she has never mentioned it again.

Right now, I am struggling to know exactly what to do. My gut tells me to continue to meet EN's as much as possible, but to lay low on the relationship talk for awhile, and give last night a chance to sink in.


BS(me)- 44
WS- 41
D-day #1- (EA) 08/02/2010
D-day #2- (PA) 09/24/2010
WS moved out- 11/11/2010
NC- 02/21/2011
Plan A
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