That is really sweet.

Here are the vows I said to (F?)WW when I gave her her new rings.


My Darling Love,

You are the love of my life. I want you forever. I want to be in and a part of your life, and experience all this existence has to offer with you at my side.

I love you.

I promise you I will Care for you for as long as I live. I promise I will always work to ensure I am an expert at meeting your needs.

I promise I will Protect your love for me. I promise I will treat you with kindness and respect. I promise I will not make assumptions about you or engage in anything that you do not enthusiastically agree to.

I promise I will always be Honest and Open with you. You are my best friend and I want to share everything with you. I promise I will not hide anything from you, both good feelings and bad. I promise I will make sure that our relationship is safe for open honesty.

I promise you I will always make you and our love the priority demand on my Time. I promise I will work to make sure that I give you the time and attention needed to make sure I can keep the promises I have made, to make sure that I am the one you love forever.

I promise you this for life and though I may stumble, I promise I will never stop trying. I give you this symbol of eternity to remind you of these promises, and as a symbol to you and all others of your value to me.

Wow....

So a measure of how far we have come. I was looking at the desktop of this laptop, and saw a document on there I didnt remember, so I opened it.

Its from a night about few weeks, maybe a month after D-Day, when I felt so down, and I couldnt sleep, so at like 1am or so I went for an almost 8 mile run, then I sat at this computer and wrote this.

I dont really like rap at all, and dont really listen to it, but read it as if it was an Eminem type thing.

Warning - Possibly Explicit Material, not sure what might or might not be censored, or whats "permissable" on these forums. I am posting it raw for completeness. If its not ok, tell a Moderator to delete it or something, no hard feelings. Anyway, this was the warning, here it is....


****edit****

Oh, and 'shoe leather' pork chops sound like:

Overcooked
Too much fat trimmed off

If you are grilling them, go for 400 degrees, 5mins each side, flipping once,for 1/2in chops. Flavor with just salt/pepper, or whatever else you want, should be just slightly pink in the center, still juicy.

You, sir, are a better man than I. I'm just not to that point yet.

:::sniff sniff::: who's got a kleenex? :::sniff sniff::: I love a happy ending!

I prefer the renewal vows. Don't mess with my 'happy ending' buzz.

Wow, your app does know everything!

Actually the pork chops are just me perfecting what I learned from my grilling book.

Thanksgiving w/ my sister and her son (same age as ours) and (F?)WW's brother and his SO. Good time, Black Friday is rediculous and terrible as usual, but here I am out in it anyway. UA time is difficult to meet w/ family in town and its taking its toll.

We're trying.

She loves her rings. That makes me happy. Got them at an outllet for a really good price, all the research from the first I shopped for them, what the lettrers/grades etc mean and stuff came in handy.

Little man has a double ear infection and pneumonia. Nurse hotline said nthing to worry about 2 days ago, but wife knew better so brought him to Dr today and been in ER ever since...

Kinda like UA time? He's sleeping on her chest right now, they are so cute.

Awww, poor little buddy! I remember when my oldest had pneumonia at the age of 2. I felt so bad for him. But he rebounded quickly and is currently dragging dirty clothes home from college.

I'm sure your little guy will be fine. Sending healing wishes to the BT fam.

Ok, so I am having some problems, and I am asking for some help.

�

I am experiencing some wicked DJs and dont want to express them to WW because thats just not ok.� What I WANT to do is work through them and find out what I REALLY want that has my Taker so upset I am coming up with DJs, but this is still a relatively new skill for me and I am having trouble figuring out exactly what my problem is...

�

So, Nov 28 was 6 months post D-day.� Dec 1st was 6months since she came home from her little forest tryst and ended the A.

�

My sister left yesterday after visiting for Thanksgiving.� She was here a week and stayed with us the whole time with her son who is about 6 months (I think) younger than ours, so they had a great time together.

�

My sisters presence seemed to bring some things to light and into focus that are still bothering me.

�

Sis talked to WW a few times and they had some pretty good moments when she first got here, but as the week wore down they began to come into conflict.� Simple stuff like they both parent different and dont neccesarily agree, but also "heavier" stuff personality conflicts.� I have a pretty nice house, its not huge or a mansion, but we have a giant hot tub and plenty of space, WW has a fantastic kitchen and we have a big fenced yard.� Its not millionare level, but from my family's perspective, I am rich.� To my sister, who HAS to work odd jobs here and there to help their family stay afloat, whos husband is just finishing Army boot camp as an E1, we are doing great.� Sis told me she sees WW and her "attitude" and just feels like WW doesnt really appreciate what she has.� So far this is just factual statements.

�

Now for my brain to take over.� I percieve this same attitude with many people that know me well.� Everyone in my family and friends tells me that I am some sort of wonderful catch, even people on here tell me I am great.� Neat and all, but I tell everyone the same thing, "You dont live with me..."� Even still, I get told, "So what, no one is perfect, she is lucky she doesnt have to work, she gets nice clothes, plenty of everything, gym membership, new car etc etc, and she is barely 24.� She could be like MOST young people, under a mountain of Credit Card debt, and going deeper to stay afloat, each working 2 jobs."

�

So this is all true, and in my opinion, I also feel like WW takes a lot for granted.� Reading�some of the threads from WWs, you see some just getting treated like dirt, their A thrown in their face every day and�used as justification for guilt trips or emotional blackmail, denial of�need meeting, and other just heinous actions, and yet they�post that they are going to endure because they feel like they brought it on themselves.� They have BHs or BWs who wont even come on�MB or commit to a recovery plan, who DONT ask for help or seem to want to fix anything.� I feel like WW has had it handed�to her.� She got to go�CHEAT, have some FUN on the side, she got to add another notch to her belt, and then I DRAGGED her�kicking and screaming back to the house, and Jennifer Chalmers had to basically bribe her to recommit to the marriage, with�telling her something about how "Wasnt it wonderful when you fell in love with your Husband the first time and wouldnt you want that again?"� WW told me that she had told Jennifer that she thought I wasnt trying at all, and Jennifer had asked some questions and then explained how she was wrong and that I had been trying incredibly hard and so on and so forth.

�

So then WW comes back, I dont lash out, I dont punish her no matter what kinda crap she says ("I wont meet your needs till you meet mine," "No I dont regret any of it since it got us where we are now", and so on and lots similar or worse).� I dont kick her out of the house, I work to meet her needs and continue improving on LBs, UA and HandO.� And still I get attitude from her.


Night of 23 November, after I was back from my trip and we were talking before bed, she said among other things, that she sometimes runs or works out so hard at the gym because she feels like she has to punish herself because she sees herself in the mirror and is disgusted with herself.� This was the first time I had heard her express anything like this.� There had been indications of the POSSIBILITY that she thought this, but she hadnt expressed it.� So she is disgusted with herself.� Ok, well, its not great and its not what I would want, but I would be disgusted with myself too if I had done what she did, so I dont know what to say to her.� I told her to post about it and ask for other perspectives from those who have been through it.� I have no idea if she has.

�

What I do believe is she is very defensive because of this.� I think quite rightly, MANY people are disappointed with her and her choice of behavior.� These same people dont have the perspective I have where I have gotten to see the difference in the last six or even 12 months.� My sister didnt.� She showed up just knowing WW was a Wayward Spouse and all the bad words that go with that.� For her, it was just my word saying, "Shes getting better."� So on to that, you add this behavior that indicates she is taking for granted what she has, and my sister, apparently, started "copping an attitude" with WW.� I didnt know about this, WW told me today after Sis had already left.� I dont condone what Sis did, but Sis is Sis, she lives 2k miles away, we see her (litterally) once every 2 years or so, and honestly, I can totally understand why Sis doesnt respect WW.� It is a struggle for me to respect her every day.� What I do know is that neither WW nor I can control Sis, what we can control is our own reactions.� WW decided the appropriate course was to disengage from Sis, not talk to her, and talk to me about her making comments about how Sis is a bad parent, a rude and disrespectful individual and so on.� Then WW makes comments like, "She should be grateful for what we did for her to come down here..."� This from a WW.� She should be grateful for all that WW did...

�

I think WW should be grateful that Sis didnt try to beat her up on sight.� I think WW should be grateful that Sis even tried to talk to her and be nice and sincere the first few days.� Its WWs fault she appears (and in my opinion IS) totally spoiled and ungrateful for what she has, and takes it for granted.

�

WW made a statement that because Sis admitted to having done something a few times (some sort of parental lapse) that she wasnt going to give any weight to anything Sis ever says as far as perspective or advice.


That really made me upset, because if THAT is the case, than I think no one should EVER pay attention to a WORD that WW ever says because she gave ample evidence of her�trustworthy, dependable and moral character.� In fact, I DONT think someone should be forever judged on past stuff.� Sure you have to earn your way out of it.� In addition, even if someone is consistantly making the same mistake, that doesnt mean there is absolutely NOTHING you can learn from them.� I believe everyone has a little gem somewhere, even the worst of people, and if you can find the gem, you can take that part of them that is good and learn from it.� Some people have LOTS of good to learn from, some very little.� Hell I even learned some stuff from the OM when I worked with him.� I still list him with the group of "bad" people, but there are things to learn from him too.

�

I think that WWs defensive judgementalism is a reaction that she consistantly goes to in nearly all stressful situations.� Her current nature is to attack and push away anything that starts to hurt.� Not stop, not think, not analyze, just get rid of it.� Product of upbringing maybe, useful at times certainly, but my dad does the same thing, and thats why he has exactly 3 or so friends still after all his life, with 100x that number having been discarded over "petty" things over the years (this at his own admission, telling me dont be like him because it doesnt work).� Its also very annoying when I percieve that those people have a RIGHT to judge her for her actions.� Sis didnt show up rude, it wasnt till she had been around a few days and witnessed how things are that she apparently started acting like that.

�

WW makes comments like, "Well I got these jeans Black Friday cuz they were on sale, but I dont know if I will wear them because I am so used to wearing good jeans," followed quickly by some statement like, "Lets get water so we dont spend as much."� No one in my family watches TV much, my Sis and Brother dont have TV on in there house ever outside of rare circumstances.� My brother tells his little 5yr old that she doenst watch TV because it "breaks your brain."� Sis and brother read books with thier kids all the time, and dont watch TV, WW says that she reads some with our son, but not that much because she "doesnt have time."� Sis and brother both work jobs and everything else, and have the time to read to their kids and not have the TV on.� I fail to see the issue.� WW states "well I watched TV and I turned out fine," seemingly oblivious to the huge gaping hole she blew in her credibility as a person who grew up "fine."

�

And of course the version of POJA is "well we do nothing till we agree, so I am watching TV and stuff until we can agree..." although not exactly those words, thats the end result.

�

�

So things I am trying to do:

I want to figure out what are my DJs here

Then create a way to ask WW what she thinks respectfully so I can get rid of the DJ and actually KNOW what she thinks

Then I am trying to figure out what it is I actually WANT from her

And last how to ask for it in a way that is�a positive specific statement free of AO's and DJs.

�

Obviously then we will have to POJA it...

BT,

I commend you for the thought and care you are taking in approaching recovery. In the aftermath of all this, SOMEone has to be the leader, and while it isn't fair, it often falls to the BS to take on this role. You seem to be on the right track.

I think it's important to note that, right now, at 6 months out, it's expected that you'll experience anger/frustration. Your comments are some of the exact same things my BH and I had to work through - things that I still have to pay attention to, as a matter of fact, (just to show it's a never-ending process). I'm not sure how to advise you on getting through this part, so I hope others will speak to that. (UA time? PORH? Revisit POJA? Another session for WW w/ Dr. Chalmers?)

I sometimes see a lot of similarities between your situation and mine, so I'll give just my take on it.



Oy, I might get 2x4'd for this, but: I think it was okay if you had pointed that out to her. To me, her mindset speaks of self-centeredness and entitlement, and shows a lack of empathy in understanding the long-term impact of her actions. Note, though: I still said and did stupid things 6 months out from D-day, I still was thinking more of myself than those around me - so balance your feelings over these statements with that knowledge, perhaps.
�


I suspect your WW knows she is in the wrong, and striking out against your sister, judging her as a worse parent, makes your WW feel better about herself while focusing her emotions on your sister and not herself.

If that is the case, it is an unhealthy and destructive habit. I would like to see your WW confront her own emotions and learn how to process them - you'll all win out that way.


See above.



Be careful here, as it's a prelude to the perfect resentment/Taker storm. I think it's in your W's court to fix this so it doesn't annoy/irritate/anger you, but I don't have any advice for you as to how to do this. It's up to her.

�

I think the biggest thing here is going to be PORH and POJA. It looks like you have certain ideas about how you want the home run, the kids raised, funds used. It seems like your WW has different ideas. You'll have to find a way to openly and honestly reconcile those in order to avoid resentment.
�

Maybe discuss with her how this is making some serious withdrawals from your LB$, and use an "I'd love it if we could figure out a solution we're both happy with" kind of approach...?


I think this is just sitting down and speaking with her, following the guidelines for care and protection in these sensitive conversations.



I wonder if this is something you'll just have to come to terms with. As in, she has dealt you this grievous blow, there is certainly an element of unfairness in it all, and, at least for now, it is what it is. Maybe down the road, with continued improvements from her, with continued working the program, this would fade.

Or, maybe I'm off base and that's not what you're feeling at all.



Okay, so: after all of that, I don't think I'm the best one to offer practical advice here. I really see so many similarities, though, between some of the incidents you've relayed and things my BH and I have experienced, so let me say: it gets better, slowly. And you will each have your own grieving and healing processes. I do hope your WW starts to get on board a little bit more (and sooner, rather than later) than what it looks like from your writing. Her telling you about her disgust is an excellent step - I hope there are more!

Oh, and: hope your little guy is on the mend soon!

He appears 10x better already, so that's good at least.

Thank you for the response, I am still processing it and my own thoughts, but I really apprerciate it and amgoing to read it again.

I so wish she would participate on here more, in my opinion, her judgement has already been showed flawed so I don't understand how she can really think she knows best through this, and not ask for others thoughts/perspectives.

Again today she said something about her thoughts and feelings and how there is no one at all who can understand.

Once I mentally picked up my jaw, I mentioned that in fact there is a whole forum full of people who have been through it.

Contrast effect, BT.

Your FWW is your FWW, not any other WW. Your recovery is your recovery, not any other recovery. Beware contrast effect creeping in and keep doing what you have been doing!

*edit*

Quick expansion; don't look at this - for now - as who she is, but more of where she is in terms of your recovery and relationship.

Her attitude may change. Or it may not. She may hold that "catalyst for a better M" viewpoint. Love HER not her viewpoint.

Capice?

Thanks HHH.

I ought to know that already by now, but it always helps to be reminded, thanks so much.

For anyone reading this that doesn't know already:


RECOVERY IS HARD!!

Hey BT and HH, Dr Harley answered DMN's email about military marriages this week. I posted the link over on the thread on the InRecovery forum. Please check it out!

NP.

It is. You are in it pretty full-force, and that is to be commended. You have me beat by a mile right now.

Ok, so an ongoing problem that has come to a head, and would love some perspective on.

We recently got our check for the first time home buyer credit.� Yay... chunck of extra change.

Problem, the day after D-day I created a new account with just my name on it that WW cant see or touch and moved everything to it, including my direct deposits from various incomes I am recieving.� Some of you may recall a problem she had where she ran out of money in our joint account due to an oversight on my part and it caused a problem where she got gas and almost got arrested because she didnt have funds to pay for it.�

Anyway, so I have been making sure there is adequate funds in there, and she has total access to see how much is in that joint account, but all the money I make still goes into my account first until I move it.

So now we are standing in line in the bank with a big ol' check from Uncle Sam, and I ask, "what account are we putting it in?"� She says "Put it in my savings account because it has both our names on it, we dont use it for anything else" and we plan on saving most of it anyway.� The only thing this check is paying off is the ring I got for her, which we had discussed and agreed on before I got it for her (well, discussed that we would pay for it with that money, I didnt tell her I was getting it, it was a surprise and she loved it).

I start getting the twist in my guts and the hair on my neck standing up, where I didnt feel comfortable with that at all, so I told her that.� She said, well I dont feel comfortable with you having it somewhere where I cant see it.� I mentioned that she CAN see it because our Quicken monitors even the accounts I have, she just cant access it.� She said she was uncomfortable with that too.� So�in the interest of POJA we agreed not to cash it.

Well we get to the car and are "talking" about it, and I can tell she is very upset about it.� She starts saying things hinting that I am being unreasonable, "You better schedule an appointment with Jennifer so you can fix yourself."� Yeah... because my lack of trust is an issue that needs to be fixed.

So I am getting pretty upset by this point, but trying to remain calm, mostly just not saying anything, because its some bad stuff I want to let loose.� Finally she makes a comment,
"I guess you are just going to have to pay interest to the credit card on this ring since we cant cash the check."
So I said, "Or I could just take the ring back."

She about lost it and started bawling right there and said, "Why dont you just take your vows back too."

Then I said, "I dont think so, I have no problems with those vows, I am not the one has had any problems with my vows."� Not ok at all, and she turned away, said our code word, and started crying while driving.� We havent talked about it since.

OK, so thats what happened, here is some more stuff.

I dont trust her.� Its been six months, and I havent caught her at all, she has been doing everything right as far as accounting for her time, UA time with me, accounting for her whereabouts, her Brother is staying with us while he sets up to live out here, and he is helping since he works mostly nights and I work mostly days so someone is with her most of the time, and when they arent I monitor her other ways at random still.

Nothing.

So thats good, but I dont know, I just dont trust her.� At one point during our discussion she tried to say something about how she hasnt done anything, she has been honest, she tells me every day how committed she is and stuff.� I reminded her that she hasnt said anything to me that she hadnt been saying for the last 5 years, which is true and how I feel about it.

The other side of it is something I didnt understand until after I read about it, but knew I had felt it.� I know for sure you can find it in SAA but Dr H talks about the Rule of Protection and how it builds trust.� If someone cannot protect you, than you cannot trust them.� I fully believe this as it (of course) makes perfect sense.� If I cant trust you to protect me on something simple like not making an SD, then how can I trust you on something worse like if OM contacts you in person on what happens to be a bad day?

WW is still quite awful (in my opinion) with handling her Taker.� She is making obvious progress even in the last 3 weeks just by watching her do it, make a DJ and SD with an AO,�get called on it, storm off, and then come back 10 mins later and apologize.� What Jennifer taught us was to "storm off" or time yourself out BEFORE you do the DJ/AO/SD etc, and therefore protect your spouse.� This is an improvement though because she was just AOing, storming off, and then never mentioning it.� At least she apparently recognizes what she is doing now.

She is failing to protect me during disagreements, I cant trust her to make decisions that take her spouse into account because she shows that many times she doesnt.� The odd thing is, I have had that check on my person or accessable to me for weeks, and at any time I could have signed her signature and cashed it, like I did with our tax return (with her permission) and the bank wouldnt care.� I could also just agree to cash it to whatever account she wants, go right outside and use my phone to immediately transfer it to any other account, including the one I want to cash it to.� Basically, just having the check she has to trust that I wont do any of those things.� In addition, I havent done anything with "our" money that didnt take her into account.� I havent cheated on her or tried my hardest to ruin her marriage.� I am the person of integrity right now in our house, and havent given any indication of being otherwise.� Why shouldnt I be trusted?

Questions I have:
Do I HAVE to trust her?
WHEN am I required to trust her?
Am I being unreasonable feeling so uncomfortable about her having access to so much of "our" money?
Am I flat out wrong about the whole earning trust and rule of protection thing?� I know I read it in SAA, but am I interpreting it wrong somehow?

I am hesitant to bring this up because I am very INCREDIBLY upset by her attitude shown by statements like, "I guess YOU will have to pay interest on the ring since we cant cash the check." (caps mine) or "YOU need to make an appointment with Jennifer to fix YOURSELF." (again, caps mine)� Things like this where, in my opinion they indicate a RENTERS mindset, which totally destroys whatever she has gained with previous professions of commitment to me and our marriage.� Sounds great that she says those things, but then at the first sign of stress its "YOU" statements and renter talk and not "US" talk...

How do I bring this up?� We need to talk about it, but I am getting very tired of feeling like I am pulling the weight, which brings me to another thought that has been building.

�
(NEW POST, SORT OF)

First part, NEED MEETING.� I have never believed in the idea of a "Soul Mate" or "The One" you are meant to spend your life with.� Even before finding MB, I knew that marriage was something you DID, an action or series of actions.� Love was a VERB.� MB helped me flesh that out into how to apply it as an action.� So with that said, I have found myself thinking,

"Whats so special about my wife that any other women of comparable looks and intelligence couldnt give me?"

My top needs include Attractive Spouse, Admiration, SF, Affection.� I am having to "train" my Wife to be an expert at meeting those needs, so why couldnt I train anyone else just as easily?

Now add to that, my wife and I disagree to a tremendous extent on a couple things like TV and religion.� My Wife believes in God, has some issues with Him because of the death of our first son, but still wants to celebrate all the secular "Christian" holidays the way her family did.� When asked what she is celebrating and why, or what she believes in, she doesnt really know, she openly admits she doesnt really believe everything in the Bible, hasnt read most of it, doesnt feel a need to go to church or anything and just wants to celebrate them because she did it as a kid.�

Me, I question everything, and reject that which doesnt make sense to me.� If you cant explain to me why I should have a christmas tree, then I dont want one.� I dont profess any devotion to God, so if the reason is to worship him or any other God, then I dont want one.� I am not interested in celebrating religious holidays because I am not religious.� She is very interested in it because she thinks they are fun, but isnt interested in actually knowing anything about the holiday, its origins, what its celebrating, or what it "means" to different groups.

She loves TV, and says "I watched TV as a kid and I turned out fine," and yet she has obviously made terrible decisions, constantly tells me how amazingly smart I am and she is glad she has me since I am so smart.� I hardly watched any TV, and read before Kindergarten and still read a ton.� I am not neccesarily saying I am "better" than her, just different, but if I had a choice, I would want my children to turn out more like me than like her.� More inquisitive, questioning, thoughtful, logical, analytical, etc.� When she says she "turned out fine," it is very hard for me not to laugh.� This whole Affair has severely damaged my opinion of her as a person, wife, and mother.

On top of that, I feel like the A should have been a huge wake up call to her that she clearly is not the relationship "expert" and would cause her to seek more knowledge to improve herself, but without actually reading her thread, I check it on the lists of threads and see the number of pages it has and it hasnt moved in a couple weeks.� Its like somewhere past page 7 or so on the SAA boards I think.� So on top of this stuff, she isnt asking for help.� Does she think she is doing everything right?

So, bringing it back around, what is so great about her that I couldnt find at least equal to with any number of other people?� The only real thing I can think of that she has going for her is that we have 2 children together, 1 still living and growing.� Other than that, whats so special about her?� The few things I used to believe were special were things like integrity, honesty, and commitment.� Yeah.....�so there goes that I guess.

So what is so special about your Spouse?� Any thoughts?� What do you guys think?
�

Second thing I have been thinking about is States of�a Relationship.

Intimacy, Conflict, Withdrawal.

Conflict is your Taker getting engaged to fight for your rights.� Intimacy is your Giver giving away the farm.� Dr H suggests and teaches a state beyond Intimacy and Conflict where both parties respectfully meet eachothers needs without doing things they dont want to, so both sides are happy without resentment.

Sounds great.� So part of this is retraining yourself not to let your Taker take over and be terrible.� Its also retraining your Giver not to give away the farm.� So what happens when you begin to fall out of his ideal state and have already retrained yourself not to let your Taker take over and be terrible?� I feel like it makes it MUCH more easier to just slip right into withdrawal when $LB balances start to dip.� Almost like skipping Intimacy and Conflict and going straight to Withdrawal, because you have trained yourself not to "fight" or "attack" the other person to get what you want, so instead, to protect yourself, you just withdraw.


This feels very dangerous to me and seems in line with the idea that Love Busters seem to hurt so much more after completing an MB program since you feel like the spouse ought to "know better."

What do you guys think about this?�

Sorry for the Wall of Text, had a few days off work, and not my time to put all this down.