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Tb, I wanted to add to what Pep has said(as she pretty much said what I was thinking). You need to understand that any of the actions that you are taking today and in the future should NOT be about getting your BW to stay married to you. They should be about making YOU a better person. You should be sending these 3 OWs a NC letter because you don't want to be in the wayward mindset now or in the future. You should be changing yourself into the best possible person that you can be, for YOU and for any future relationship that you have(be it with your current wife or not).



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I understand. The only expectations I have are the ones for myself to change and outwardly show that by my works.

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Originally Posted by TexasBob
I understand. The only expectations I have are the ones for myself to change and outwardly show that by my works.

OK then.
This is a good thing.

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If "admiration" is in the top 5 of your EN list, how are you going to accept little or no wifely admiration for the coming months?
Will you be able to push yourself forward with MB work ~~~LONG TERM~~~ without getting admired for doing so?

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Pepper, I've gone without admiration from her for some time. It's been a month since I've put a good step forward. I'll focus on building good habits and meeting as many EN of her's as I can for as long as she'll allow me. Again, I feel like I've been so selfish throughout our marriage. If admiration is given up in order to do something better, then I think that's a trade off I'm more than willing to accept for the long term.

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Originally Posted by Pepperband
If "admiration" is in the top 5 of your EN list, how are you going to accept little or no wifely admiration for the coming months?
Will you be able to push yourself forward with MB work ~~~LONG TERM~~~ without getting admired for doing so?


That's a REALLY good Q to ask.

If I were to ask my H this,...he would probably say this is a giant stumbling block for him. Thus, the reason he seems eager to shove it under the rug...forget, and "move on". Any reminders of ways he hurt me, or wronged me, cause him to see himself poorly,...gives him a negative in the admiration category. It's obvious, when he is so eager to get praises (and does things to get them).

TexasBob -- The admiration should come from inside of you, first. Admire the feeling that you are on a new path, moving forward (not backward) and determined to be a better man and father. It wouldn't be a good idea to go at it with a desperate intention to win her back and get good responses from her too soon. Just do the things you do, with heart felt interest in being good to her because you feel you are good. If you feel you are good,..on a new path,...you will be. Eventually, she'll see that. When you think about it, seeking the rewards outside of yourself is self-defeating,...and (in my H case) the source of the weak boundaries --- it was the "pleasure" he thought filled him up during the affair. But, in the end, it didn't gain him anything with any true lasting or value,...and it lost him the stuff that had that.


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If admiration is given up in order to do something better, then I think that's a trade off I'm more than willing to accept for the long term.
While I 'admire' grin your commitment, I'd suggest you look at this again and revise your idea. Right now you are in 'Giver' mode, willing to make allowances and changes that you feel will help you become a better person (and, of course, you'd like to reconcile with your W.) But you don't adjust EN's at your leisure, they are what they are. You can't say "I think one of my top EN's this week will be...oh, Financial Support, then I'll switch that one out for Domestic Support next week."

Here's the thing: if admiration is one of your top 5 ENs and you give it the boot as a way of being a 'better person', your Taker isn't going to like that. Eventually your Taker will come roaring on the scene, demanding some attention.

Pep asks an important question. Because if admiration IS one of your top 5 needs, and your wife shows no inclination to meet that, how do you think you'll deal with that?


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Good point, martialbliss.

I'm interested in this thread, because it's a huge issue in my recovery.

Here's the way, I see it. If he goes at it with a "give to get" attitude and doesn't give to give, eventually, he will give up trying. But, that puts an obligation attached to it for the receiver.

It's as if he's giving a book to someone who really wants a pair of roller skates -- no wow factor -- and he's feeling rejected that his gift wasn't well received (unwanted, even). Or,...if he DOES give her the roller skates, she may be thrilled, but will feel an unspoken obligation to give back something worthy of the same wow factor, but simply can't afford to -- she's broke.

The intention has to be give to give (the thought that counts),...not to get. Eventually, she'll see (and trust) that the intention is solid; safe.




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I'm sure the giving up of the EN isn't uncommon for either party in a recovery -- especially, at first.

Think about some of the people with a sex addiction affair trying to get their SF satisfied.

If the affair fulfilled EN's the marriage didn't, I think it's to be expected that the BS won't be so willing to give in that area, unless they feel it's safe to do so. Filling the cups of the other EN's should come first. Otherwise, the BS has a feeling of competition, triggers, and resentment, having to give to these things that the wayward got from the affair. I feel like starting a new thread on this....


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Originally Posted by Daisy
I'm sure the giving up of the EN isn't uncommon for either party in a recovery -- especially, at first.

Think about some of the people with a sex addiction affair trying to get their SF satisfied.

If the affair fulfilled EN's the marriage didn't, I think it's to be expected that the BS won't be so willing to give in that area, unless they feel it's safe to do so. Filling the cups of the other EN's should come first.
I think you're assuming that his BW wants to recover the M, and right now she doesn't. She's not interested in giving him any ENs.

The question is how Bob intends to safeguard his boundaries without some of his needs being met while he works on himself and his personal healing. See, his BW left him after he had an A, and his response almost immediately was to have another A. This is dangerous behavior that he cannot entertain if he wishes to save and recover his M.


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I realize this. My WH, did much the same,...sabotaging by giving up,...thinking I was simply "done" with him (and he knew why), by things I said to him (to others), and filing for D. And,..he continued to sabotage, even after I put it on hold. I could just as easily have gone the other way and said, "heck with it",...but, it was the good intentions he was showing (in actions, more than words) that made the difference to me.

Actually, I WANTED to be separated,...and see where it went. I was wanting to be divorced from him and,..maybe,...see about how we could be post-D. He was good with that and we (originally) made a plan to go slow with it, so he could work on himself and give me a chance to work through the trust/danger feelings I had -- which showed caring to me, even though, he really wanted to just come home. Eventually, I saw that his intentions were pro-marriage, pro-me, or pro-family,...and I saw hope. Where as, the affair, and any actions he took with it, were shouting "give up"..."I don't want you or the family" to me.


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TexasBob -- The admiration should come from inside of you, first. Admire the feeling that you are on a new path, moving forward (not backward) and determined to be a better man and father.

Wow, is this ever some awesomely good advice. Daisy's earlier long post to you was also a great one.

There have been some most interesting threads here dealing with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). Now, I'm not saying that you are NPD - mostly because I don't know you well enough and I'm not a doc anyway - but NPD often comes up with a WS whose #1 EN is Admiration.

Why? Because NPDs are attention addicts, pure and simple, the same way alcoholics are booze addicts and crackheads are crack addicts and hoarders are shopping addicts - you get the picture.

Daisy's post really jumped out at me because, like any addict, NPDs try to get ALL of their need for Admiration from outside sources. That leaves them completely empty on the inside, while frantically trying to pour in more and more and more and more of their drug (attention and admiration) from outside sources. But it just pours right through and doesn't stay around, so the addict needs more and more and more and more and more -

Why doesn't it stay around? Because there is no inward source of Admiration to "hold" it there. Because without an inward source, there is no Self-respect, no Self-worth, no Self-validation. Because without those things, the outward Admiration and Attention are empty and unsatisfying.

Now, this doesn't mean that no one should ever seek out admiration and attention from outside sources - not at all. But you've got to have the inward source first, because if you don't then all that attention coming in from the outside just pours right through and leave you even emptier than before.

It will also leave you with extremely poor boundaries as you seek out more and more sources of Attention and Admiration, because you have to be open to any and all sources as you keep trying to fill up that ever-growing emptiness.

Maybe this is more than you were looking for, but having tried to live with someone who started out as a nice normal outgoing guy and later became a full-blown NPD attention addict and sex addict - I've learned more than I was ever looking for, too.

Quote
It wouldn't be a good idea to go at it with a desperate intention to win her back and get good responses from her too soon. Just do the things you do, with heart felt interest in being good to her because you feel you are good. If you feel you are good,..on a new path,...you will be. Eventually, she'll see that. When you think about it, seeking the rewards outside of yourself is self-defeating,...and (in my H case) the source of the weak boundaries --- it was the "pleasure" he thought filled him up during the affair. But, in the end, it didn't gain him anything with any true lasting or value,...and it lost him the stuff that had that.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. This was my experience, too. And in my case the marriage was not recovered. His drug meant far too much to him, and still does.



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I agree that I do think I'm giving to get something, like a glimpse of her healing a bit. Again this is selfish thinking. I really need to work on unconditional love. I feel so caught up in getting her back that I forget how much wrong I've done. Yes, I get caught up in the pity party, yet I can only imagine the horrible state I've forced on her. Forgive me for being so horrible. I'm really wanting to follow the MB way. How can one make amends while I'm separated without crossing boundaries?

Here is my draft of the letter I was going to give my wife with the NC letters. Open for discussion.

"I'm not sure how to start this letter off to you. So many thoughts are running through my head and the emotions are so sensitive that I get choked up thinking about all that I have broken. I feel that way because I betrayed you. I indulged in selfish acts to gratify myself and gave no thought to my best friend, my wife and our three princesses. I gave away that which was sacred and became a horrible person in the process. I am completely responsible for those actions and bare the guilt and shame for life as a result of it. I know that at this time I cannot repay you for the pain I've caused, for you had no choice in the matter, and are forced to suffer on behalf of me. I am however, determined to make things right so that one day you may feel cared for and protected by me once again. I pray that my actions would with time touch your heart and you may want to be with me again. I'm holding no expectations for your to take me back, and I understand right now you think you never will, but this will not deter me. I do not want a divorce and I do not want a broken family. Again, I am at full fault for where we are at today and the feelings and hardship you face, but I want to make things right. I want to be the husband you deserve and once loved. I will be the man that supports you through all your needs. I want you to know there will be no pressure, nor expectations, and I am determined to be patient and wait as long as needed to win you back.

I would implore you to postpone the divorce proceedings in the chances that we might begin to reconcile. I know the Lord still performs miracles and will do so with our family as he witnesses the effort I put into becoming a better person. If postponing the divorce is unreasonable then I am still going to act as if I were a married man. I will continue to strengthen my boundaries around women, I will conduct myself in a new manner, and there will be no inappropriate relationships or the appearance of such with the opposite sex. I will not give you a reason to doubt me. I've told you I have nothing to hide and that I am an open book. The usernames and passwords were given to you so that you may feel secure in knowing that at any time I am wanting you to check on my progression. More than anything I want my good works to show you that I can change and return the feelings of security and safety to our home. I've included these letters for you to send out. They outline my love for you and the girls and forsake my selfish indulgence with these other women. I have not had contact with either of them for several months, but I want to show you that I intend to cut any and all ties, regardless at what point we are at, and I'm asking them to respect this and not contact me. Divorce is not what I want. I want you, daughter1, daughter2, and daughter3. Again, I require nothing of you as I will do all the heavy lifting in this case for it is I that must repair what I have done. I will do whatever it takes to keep our family together and raise our children in a Celestially bound home. I have felt your love before and I am confident that with hard work and sacrifice that I can restore those feelings , as your husband."

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You should remove your daughters' names from that post.

A quick google search revealed your last name (beginning with M), your family's blog with family photos, etc.


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Thanks didn't think about that.

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Originally Posted by TexasBob
Here is my draft of the letter I was going to give my wife with the NC letters. Open for discussion.

"I'm not sure how to start this letter off to you. So many thoughts are running through my head and the emotions are so sensitive that I get choked up thinking about all that I have broken. I feel that way because I betrayed you. I indulged in a selfish act to gratify myself and gave no thought to my dutiful wife and our three princesses. I gave away that which was sacred and became a horrible person in the process. I am completely responsible for those actions and bare the guilt and shame for life as a result of it. I know that at this time I cannot repay you for the pain I've caused, for you had no choice in the matter, and are forced to suffer on behalf of me. I am however, determined to make things right so that one day you may feel cared for and protected by me once again. I pray that my actions would with time touch your heart and you may want to be with me again. I'm holding no expectations for your to take me back, and I understand right now you think you never will, but this will not deter me. I do not want a divorce and I do not want a broken family. Again, I am at full fault for where we are at today and the feelings and hardship you face, but I want to make things right. I want to be the husband you deserve and once loved. I will be the man that supports you through all your needs. I want you to know there will be no pressure, nor expectations, and I am determined to be patient and wait as long as needed to win you back. Much like Jacob of old, I am ready to work and wait 7 years or longer to prove myself to you.
I would implore you to postpone the divorce proceedings in the chances that we might begin to reconcile. I know the Lord still performs miracles and will do so with our family as he witnesses the effort I put into becoming a better person. If postponing the divorce is unreasonable then I am still going to act as if I were a married man. I will continue to strengthen my boundaries around women, I will conduct myself in a new manner, and there will be no inappropriate relationships or the appearance of such with the opposite sex. I will not give you a reason to doubt me. I've told you I have nothing to hide and that I am an open book. The usernames and passwords were given to you so that you may feel secure in knowing that at any time I am wanting you to check on my progression. More than anything I want my good works to show you that I can change and return the feelings of security and safety to our home. I've included these letters for you to send out. They outline my love for you and the girls and forsake my selfish indulgence with these other women. I have not had contact with either of them for several months, but I want to show you that I intend to cut any and all ties, regardless at what point we are at, and I'm asking them to respect this and not contact me. Divorce is not what I want. I want you, daughter1, daughter2, and daughter3. Again, I require nothing of you as I will do all the heavy lifting in this case for it is I that must repair what I have done. I will do whatever it takes to keep our family together and raise our children in a Celestially bound home. I have felt your love before and I am confident that with hard work and sacrifice that I can restore those feelings , as your husband."

I would not recommend you send this letter the way it is written. "dutiful wife" - wow, how romantic!





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I think your letter is a good start but needs some editing. My FWH wrote a similar letter which meant a lot to me because I know it was honest and heartfelt.

I'd be careful about certain parts such as "Much like Jacob of old, I am ready to work and wait 7 years or longer to prove myself to you."

Don't say it if you don't mean it and/or can't follow through on it.

Also "selfish acts" rather than "selfish act."

Ditch the dutiful wife part. What do you love about her? What makes her special to you? Tell her.

I'll reread it to give you more feedback, and I'm sure the vets will be along soon to give you some pointers.

---

Careful also with invoking the religious stuff unless you've already been walking the walk. It's too easy to talk the talk ... and in turn look like a hypocrite. I don't know you, so I'm not judging. Just a word of caution.

---

I'd also state specific steps you're taking to change your ways. Example: tell her you've begun learning about how to be a better husband, the husband she deserves, through an organization called Marriage Builders, and you're going to be reading, learning and working hard to apply the principles to you life.

Then do it!!!!!!



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TB,

I've been following your thread and much like Pepperband, I'm not real excited helping a wayward lure his BS back into a marriage she has no interest in saving.

Though I am excited at the prospect of you making changes and proceeding to make ammends.

I'm willing to give you some feedback on the latter.

First of all, your letter is very self serving! You are not really taking your wifes feelings into account. IMNSVHO You are proceeding headfirst down another destructive path.

I know you feel broken and crushed, but pouring out your feelings about how broken and crushed you are and how much yaou want your family back deserves no empathy from your wife... And in reality will likely be seen by her as more of the same ole' selfishness.....

I'll be back in a bit...

Last edited by HerPapaBear; 12/11/10 01:02 PM. Reason: spel chec




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I think it's pointless and silly for anyone on this forum to decide which M can or can't be saved, should or shouldn't be saved.

Dr. Harley has said the same.

He guides people about how to save their M regardless of the extent of the damage that has already been done.

Bob has acknowledged here and in his letter to his W that their M may not be able to be saved (you may want to state that more clearly in your letter, Bob), but that he is going to make changes in his life regardless.

If his W doesn't want to take him back, of course that's her prerogative.

However, in his first post, Bob wrote "All may not be completely lost as she's told me she might date me in 3 years."

So, let's proceed how Dr. Harley would ... that all may not be completely lost.

I posted the following earlier in this thread, but it bears repeating. Again, it doesn't relate to infidelity, but Dr. Harley's recommendations may still be helpful to you, Bob:

Quote
I suggest you keep trying to reconcile right up to the day she moves out, then up to the day you are divorced, and then continue on for about two years beyond your divorce. Your wife's Love Bank is so far in the red that she probably can't even see the bottom of the well. But each time you do something to make her feel good, and avoid doing something that annoys her, your reduce the deficit. She probably hates you right now because her Love Bank balance is so negative. But eventually, you will have deposited enough love units to break even. From then on, you will be depositing into the black, and she will like you again. With more deposits, she will eventually love you, and your marriage will be restored.

Your wife is suffering from deep resentment that developed over a lifetime. She does not want to forgive you for the mistakes you made during your marriage, and she certainly can't forget. Her Taker reminds her of her lost years, when she was forced to live according to your plans and your schedule. It reminds her of the times she begged you to consider her feelings, and how you ignored her pleas. She is reminded of her overwhelming feeling of loneliness, and hopelessness that made her consider suicide on numerous occasions. How could she ever forgive a man who put her through all of that.

It's no wonder your wife wants to make her own choices from now on, and her first choice is to leave the prison. She has probably been counting the days that your children would be on their own so she could be on her own. Every effort you are now making to keep her with you will be interpreted as the same oppressive control that she endured throughout your marriage.

Your wife is now in the state of emotional withdrawal, which makes it difficult for you to deposit love units into her Love Bank. She does not want you to try to meet her emotional needs because she does not believe you will ever be able to make her happy. She thinks that as soon as she drops her defenses, you will trap her, and she will be under your control again.

For a while, she may want to regain total control of her life so that she knows what it feels like. Once she has regained control, however, she may miss what it was you did for her. After all, none of us can meet our own emotional needs, they can only be met by someone else. That's what marriage is all about. She may be willing to re-enter her relationship with you on new terms. If you can meet her needs without it costing her control of her life, you will have made a deal that will compensate her for some of the pain she has suffered. From there her generosity toward you may carry her the rest of the way to forgiveness.

Interestingly enough, a sign of her trusting you may take the form of anger and resentment. If she changes from withdrawal to the state of conflict (which is an improvement), she will tell you how angry she is, and blame you for all of her depression. Her Taker will release its storehouse of resentment. Her shaming of you, and her disrespect will be hard for you to take, but it will give you an opportunity to hear from her Taker what she wants from you. You will have an opportunity to make a deal with her to compensate her for all of the pain she has suffered. If you can get though her attack without losing too many of her love units in your love bank, you will gain valuable information, and an opportunity from your wife to implement change.

Read "Negotiating in the Three States of Marriage" in my Basic Concepts section of the web site for more information about how states of mind effect your negotiating strategy. You should also read Fall in Love, Stay in Love. If you read it now, you can start applying its principles while she is still with you, and follow through on them after she has left. Pay close attention to the chapters on the Love Busters, Disrespectful Judgments and Selfish Demands, because they will get you into a ton of trouble if you persist in them while she is still around.

My article, in the articles section, entitled "Why Women Leave Men" may also be helpful to you. If possible, make a copy for your wife to read and see if she agrees with me.

The Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse) is the ultimate equalizer in marriage. Your wife's stated reason for leaving you is that her feelings have not been taken into account whenever you have made decisions, and she feels like the caboose on a train. All her married life she felt out of control. The Policy of Joint Agreement will change all of that for both of you, and if you try to reconcile with care and consideration for her feelings, you and your wife will have years to practice using it together.


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I'm not sure what the laws are in your state, but is legal seperation an option.







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