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I'm with HerPapaBear. Parts of what you wrote were the things I hated hearing from my H,...no matter how heartfelt and sincere they were otherwise. That is -- the pity party stuff. Granted, she needs to hear that you are remorseful, but it needs to come out, not as..."I'm horrible person",...or "I'm worthless,...you shouldn't feel the need to take me back". Because, that says you don't think you are worthy of doing what needs to be done. It still says you aren't safe,...no matter how hard you say you want to be.

The good parts, are where you tell her you will stick it out no matter what,...make improvements, no matter what,...and why. She needs to hear that what you did, you've learned from,..and what you've learned; that it lost you what meant the most to you,...and it wasn't worth what you got out of it.

My H would go off,...saying how guilty he felt,...how he felt worthless,...how afraid he was that he'd lose his dignity if I divorced him,...ACK!....it just felt as if he wanted me to pity HIM. It wasn't gunna happen,...and just made me mad, because he was STILL doing it.

If you really want to touch her where it counts you need to put emphasis on HER pity party. Emphasize what she must be feeling, what she's had to endure,...let her know how much it tears you up, but not have it come out as feeling sorry for yourself. She needs to hear it come from you as a friend would comfort her. She needs to hear how much it would have crushed you if it had been YOU.

See it from her shoes and ask yourself what you would want from you, if the tables were turned. This is important.


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Also, whenever he'd go on about how selfish he was, or using the term selfish act (though it's true),...it would make me cringe, because it said to me, he enjoyed it,...he liked it,...at my expense. Better to use the term "mistake"....a big fat, mistake, that you have learned from.


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TD,

I'm also curious.... What changes are you willing to make in your life? And Why?

And I don't mean, "be a better husband" type of responses. I'm more interested in hearing some of the details of HOW you will go about becoming a better husband, dad, etc. Also, What steps are you planning/willing to take?





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Originally Posted by DeltaDriveDeceit
I think it's pointless and silly for anyone on this forum to decide which M can or can't be saved, should or shouldn't be saved.

Dr. Harley has said the same.

He guides people about how to save their M regardless of the extent of the damage that has already been done.

Bob has acknowledged here and in his letter to his W that their M may not be able to be saved (you may want to state that more clearly in your letter, Bob), but that he is going to make changes in his life regardless.

If his W doesn't want to take him back, of course that's her prerogative.

However, in his first post, Bob wrote "All may not be completely lost as she's told me she might date me in 3 years."

So, let's proceed how Dr. Harley would ... that all may not be completely lost.

I posted the following earlier in this thread, but it bears repeating. Again, it doesn't relate to infidelity, but Dr. Harley's recommendations may still be helpful to you, Bob:

Quote
I suggest you keep trying to reconcile right up to the day she moves out, then up to the day you are divorced, and then continue on for about two years beyond your divorce.
Suppose that your former spouse writes you a sort of Plan B letter, essentially stating "I have no wish to reconcile with you. Please leave me alone." What kind of person persists with reconciliation efforts? I'd tend to say...a mighty selfish one.
IF a BW has an absolute right to divorce a wayward spouse, I think they also have the right to be left alone and not subject to any more pressure.

I dunno - something about this just bugs.

EDIT _ Yes I realize it wuld not be a "Plan B" Letter; I was using that term to denote something very considered and delibrate. Not a Plan FU type thing at all.

Last edited by kerala; 12/11/10 01:43 PM.
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TD,

The entire issue I have with your letter is that it is just words!

WORDS, WORDS, WORDS!

You will only make a difference in regards to your future with ACTIONS!

So lets go back to my last post and discuss what actions you are planning/willing to take.....





Recovery began 10/07;

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I agree with you, Kerala. It bugged me, too. Especially when he'd come at it as "I feel awful",...or "I deserve to be "done" with".

What turned it around was his willingness to go along with my wishes (even if those wishes included being left alone) --- it showed he cared about ME, instead of appearing selfish. It took him showing understanding and patience. It took him telling me how much he missed me and what he felt he was losing,..what I meant to him,...and how he's realized I was more valuable than anything he could get (or did get) from the affair person.


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Originally Posted by kerala
Suppose that your former spouse writes you a sort of Plan B letter, essentially stating "I have no wish to reconcile with you. Please leave me alone." What kind of person persists with reconciliation efforts? I'd tend to say...a mighty selfish one.

I admit I'm rather new to this forum, so my question is sincere:

If someone has no wish to reconcile, isn't that Plan D or Plan FU rather than Plan B?

The unknown to us is exactly where Bob's W is at. Does she have any wish, however remote, to reconcile?

My guess -- and it's only a guess -- is that no matter how much Bob's hurt her and how much she wants to be done with him and his abusive and selfish ways, there's some inkling in her that hopes he will change his ways and be an excellent husband and and excellent live-in father to her three young daughters.


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Originally Posted by HerPapaBear
You will only make a difference in regards to your future with ACTIONS!

So lets go back to my last post and discuss what actions you are planning/willing to take.....

Exactly!


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Right, HPB,...just words. In addition to his letter,...or, better yet, IN his letter, he should spell out some of the ways/things he thinks he could do to work with her during a D-hold, to build back their relationship. And get her feedback. Ask her what it would take. If she says no,...not going there, he should come back with, "I will give you what you feel you need,...because I care." In some form.

I want to add,....I was VERY pro-D,...and willing to see what the future brought, being that we would still have to have contact and raise the kids. A marriage only ends on paper in a D. Spiritually, it ends when the vows are broken by an affair. That's the way, I saw it, anyway. Both can be brought back from the dead,...with hope,...and actions.

I have two friends, both with kids; one who has remarried her prev spouse,...and the other, who divorced because of an affair, and they now live together again (for the past five years), but are still divorced,...and they just had a new baby.

What I'm getting at is, there's always some hope to hold onto,...whether or not they D.


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HerPapaBear, I know how that sounds. One of my issues since I haven't been around her much is really knowing what she's going through. I don't want that to sound likes it's all about me but I can't imagine her turmoil. I wish I could take it from her. So I shouldn't even talk about what I want but focus on what her needs are and how that is my objective in my efforts to progress as a new man?

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I think another issue I'm having when righting that makes this letter seem self centered is my writing style. I've written numerous police reports for work where it's all based on what "I" saw or did. I've got to break that habit here. Bare with me and have faith in my efforts please. Thank you.

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Ok, I'm on my iPhone typing and I just read some of Daisy and HPB's posts I missed. As for what I'm doing to change currently, I am seeing a therapists regarding these sexual and spiritual issues. I've been attending an addiction class like 12 steps for pornography. I've increased my study of the scriptures and meet with my Bishop every other week. I was disfellowshipped for a period of 12 months to continue the repentance process. I try to do some form of service a day to break my habit of shelfishness. When my wife needs any thing, usually help watching the kids, I never say I can't. I gave her a ride to the airport the other day. Like I said, I go over and clean the house. I'm reasons several books like the Miricale of Forgiveness and am awaiting Surviving an Affair. Ive distanced myself from yhe opposite sex. I dont go out socially right now, and i got rid of computers in my house. Finally, I'm here. Trying to take it all in.

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Ummm. When did you decide to write this letter? I thought you were going to make your last request for her to rethink the D, and give her the NC letters to mail. (Which was pushing it as it was - now a long, cajoling letter??)

Bob, I would suggest that you NOT give her this. Not even a shortened version of it.

You have already expressed your desire to reconcile and she has rebuffed you. However, she has not completely dismissed the idea of reconciling. Remember what she told her friend? That the two of you could maybe date in three years? I think she's waiting to see what your (get ready for it) ACTIONS ARE. Like everyone has been telling you. It's all about your ACTIONS now.

It's going to take some time for her to see a consistently changed man. I'm sorry, but that letter ain't gonna get the job done.

As far as the content of the letter goes, it's too long and ultimately too self-serving. You don't want to leave that impression with her. JMHO.


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Maritalbliss,

I recommended the letter because I really don't think his BW knows that he REALLY wants to save the marriage. Afterall, he moved out on his own, he started sleeping around after he got rejected the last time, and he has vascillated back and forth about what he wants. I suggested he tell his BW flat out that he doesn't want the D, he wants her, and there will be no more back and forth. I figured it is easier to say those things in a letter because a letter can be written in advance so he only says the right things, and so that he can deliver the message without it turning into an emotional fight with his BW.

Now, the letter is too long and self-serving. Your BW doesn't care about how broken up you are. Just say you know you wronged her and the kids, you are extremely sorry, and you will do everything in your power to make things right and make her want to be with you again. Then I would continue with the second paragraph about all the things you are currently doing to try and make things right, how you are hoping she might postpone the divorce, you have no expectations of her, and to let you know if there is anything you can do for her. This is not meant to be a romantic love letter. It needs to be sincere, direct, and to the point. If it starts getting syrupy, romantic, talks about your pain, or is overly wordy, she will toss it away without reading it all the way through, and it will put her off even more. It is all about writing to your audience. I would do a second edit and repost it. I would try and have it ready to give to her tomorrow.


Jim

BS - 32 (me)
FWW - 33
Married 8/31/03
No kids (but 3 cats)
D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA)
NC agreed to - 11/8/06
NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07
Status - In Recovery
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Ok, here's letter attempt #2.

"Holly,
I have made terrible mistakes in our marriage. Your wellbeing was not my priority and as a result I have left you in physical turmoil. You have cried more these past few months because of my mistakes than over the course of our 10 year marriage, and it tears me up inside. Every time you�ve been sick it has been due to a decision I have made which have had a negative impact on you. I can�t pretend to imagine the anxiety and stress you feel because I have betrayed you. Even now with every mistake on the table and with nothing to hide, the momentum of pain I�ve caused you continues to roll and effect things like finances, your ability to work, and our children. I want to comfort you through all that you�ve endured, but I know I�m the catalyst to all that hurt. The knots in your stomach or the sleepless nights are not your fault nor do you deserve any of it. I have left you vulnerable and uncared for when you could use loving support the most. When I took your hand and said �Yes� I meant it and never intended to be writing a letter such as this.
You are my best friend. I have lost your trust and trampled on our friendship in the worst ways. I know that I have committed grievous sins and do not want to be this person. I have already begun to take measures that these mistakes not only never happen again, but that I am prepared for a life in which I have the power to take control of the natural man in me and be happy. You deserve to be happy and have a husband who treats you as the special woman you are. I am determined to be that man and as a byproduct of my efforts to completely take control of the natural man, I hope that you will want me once again as your husband. I�m asking you for no promises nor holding you to any expectations. I�m vowing that I will not give up on standing with honor again. I have everything to gain from improving my decision making and becoming selfless, because everything is my family. It�s the family walks and accomplishments we share. It�s being together at Christmas time or traveling together. It�s sharing a coke or eating out. No matter how hard the work is to put in, I will not give up. I�ve learned that what I had with you was better than anything out there. I�ve felt the rush of seeing you again as if we were dating. I understand now that I have weak boundaries around the opposite sex and that my priorities were always self-serving. I�ve been impulsive and impractical, and worse yet, fought you on these issues when you showed compassion and tried to help. These are areas of my life I am taking control of to fight for our marriage. These will not be just words I write to you, but I will show you how badly I want this.
You have every right to divorce me. I have proven myself unworthy, but I want you to know that it is my deepest desire to reconcile our marriage with the help of God and by me fulfilling certain obligations. I sincerely ask that you hold off on the divorce. I�m not going to pressure you to do so, but I am not going to focus on it, but rather put my efforts into mending my wrongs and doing all that you will allow me to do to serve you and the girls. At this time you probably don�t think we would ever get back together, but I pray that I might be able to give you protection and fulfillment once again. Like I said before, I�m holding you to no obligations, but during this time I plan to continue with therapy, ARP meetings, meeting with the Bishop, and Stake President. I will continue to serve others and hopefully get the opportunity to serve you more. I have found a site that has really opened my eyes to my mistakes and the torment I�ve put you through. At the same time I�m learning how to solidly overcome my impulsive behaviors and change myself to a man you would want to be with.
You are a driving force in my life and the greatest mother to our beautiful girls. I�m amazed by your compassion and example as you struggle at my doing. I am with faults and in need of recognizing and correcting them but want nothing more than to do so. Your happiness is my priority and I am willing to do whatever you feel is necessary in order for you to feel that joy again. In an effort to show you my commitment to progressing through this path to becoming your husband, I have enclosed letters to the other women which outline my love for you and our family. It�s been some time since I�ve had any communication with them, but it states I will not have any further contact with them, and request that the do not contact me. No more impulsiveness, no more inappropriate situations with the opposite sex, nothing. I want to be completely transparent in all that I do and that is why I supplied you with my usernames and passwords for you to feel like I have nothing to hide from you and I encourage you to look in at my progress. Holly, divorce is not what I want. A broken family is not what Heavenly Father wants from us. I am the reason for this though and have great determination to change this course. I require nothing from you as I will do all of the heavy lifting here. I know that you loved me before and I am confident that with an extraordinary amount of hard work and faith that I can get that back, as your husband."

Last edited by TexasBob; 12/11/10 04:22 PM.
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TB,

You are not writing prose, you are trying to write something that will BW will be able to read while stomaching all the way through. Your letter sounds like a bad love letter. Short. Direct. To the point.

Dear H,

I am so sorry for all that I have done to hurt you and our children. There is no excuse for my actions, and I am solely responsible for everything that has happened in the past few months. I know what I have done may have irrevocably damaged our marriage beyond repair, but I am going to do everything in my power to make myself the kind of person you would want to be with and feel safe with again. I do not want divorce. I want you and the girls. I want to make that perfectly clear, despite all the signals to the contrary I have given you recently. I know I have done everything wrong the past few months, but I am dedicating myself to do everything right going forward. I don't expect you to take me back, but I am clinging to the hope that one day, we can be a family again. I am willing to do all the heavy lifting.

I am working on doing the right things moving forward. The first step is to write NC letter to the women I betrayed you with. I have written the letters for you to look over and send out if you choose. I also am changing my contact information so they cannot even contact me again if they wanted to. I also want to provide full transparency so that if one day you would choose to reconcile with me, there would be no more secrets. Here are the passwords to my email, phone, computer, etc. I no longer have anything to hide.

I would like to ask you to postpone the divorce (or just move forward with legal separation). Even if you choose to move forward, I am still going to act like a married man in the hopes to one day repair our marriage. I will finally observe proper marital boundaries with other women. No opposite sex friends, no one on one time with members of the opposite sex, no lunches, no alone time, no sharing of personal information, no texts, phone calls, emails or facebook messages. I am focusing on living my life for you and the kids, not just myself anymore.

I hope one day I can be the man you love again, and I am working towards that. If there is anything I can do for you and the kids, do not hesitate to ask. I'm sorry, I miss you and the kids, and I just want you to be happy in the future, regardless of the outcome.

Love,

TB


Jim

BS - 32 (me)
FWW - 33
Married 8/31/03
No kids (but 3 cats)
D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA)
NC agreed to - 11/8/06
NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07
Status - In Recovery
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It was that bad Jim? frown

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If you are going to proceed, I recommend a few changes...... Way toooo wordy and would likely make your W throw up before she got to the points you are trying to say!


Originally Posted by TexasBob
Ok, here's letter attempt #2.

"Holly,
I have made terrible mistakes in our marriage. Your wellbeing was not my priority and as a result I have left you in physical turmoil. You have cried more these past few months because of my mistakes than over the course of our 10 year marriage, and it tears me up inside. Every time you�ve been sick it has been due to a decision I have made which have had a negative impact on you. I can�t pretend to imagine the anxiety and stress you feel because I have betrayed you. Even now with every mistake on the table and with nothing to hide, the momentum of pain I�ve caused you continues to roll and effect things like finances, your ability to work, and our children. I want to comfort you through all that you�ve endured, but I know I�m the catalyst to all that hurt. The knots in your stomach or the sleepless nights are not your fault nor do you deserve any of it. I have left you vulnerable and uncared for when you could use loving support the most. When I took your hand and said �Yes� I meant it and never intended to be writing a letter such as this.
You are my best friend.
I have lost your trust and trampled on our friendship in the worst ways. I know that I have committed grievous sins and do not want to be this person. I have already begun to take measures that these mistakes not only never happen again, but that I am prepared for a life in which I have the power to take control of the natural man in me and be happy. You deserve to be happy and have a husband who treats you as the special woman you are. I am determined to be that man and as a byproduct of my efforts to completely take control of the natural man, I hope that you will want me once again as your husband. I�m asking you for no promises nor holding you to any expectations. I�m vowing that I will not give up on standing with honor again. I have everything to gain from improving my decision making and becoming selfless, because everything is my family. It�s the family walks and accomplishments we share. It�s being together at Christmas time or traveling together. It�s sharing a coke or eating out. No matter how hard the work is to put in, I will not give up. I�ve learned that what I had with you was better than anything out there. I�ve felt the rush of seeing you again as if we were dating. I understand now that I have weak boundaries around the opposite sex and that my priorities were always self-serving. I�ve been impulsive and impractical, and worse yet, fought you on these issues when you showed compassion and tried to help. These are areas of my life I am taking control of to fight for our marriage. These will not be just words I write to you, but I will show you how badly I want this.You have every right to divorce me. I have proven myself unworthy, but I want you to know that it is my deepest desire to reconcile our marriage with the help of God and by me fulfilling certain obligations. I sincerely ask that you hold off on the divorce. I�m not going to pressure you to do so, but I am not going to focus on it, but rather put my efforts into mending my wrongs and doing all that you will allow me to do to serve you and the girls. At this time you probably don�t think we would ever get back together, but I pray that I might be able to give you protection and fulfillment once again. Like I said before, I�m holding you to no obligations, but during this time I plan to continue with therapy, ARP meetings, meeting with the Bishop, and Stake President. I will continue to serve others and hopefully get the opportunity to serve you more. I have found a site that has really opened my eyes to my mistakes and the torment I�ve put you through. At the same time I�m learning how to solidly overcome my impulsive behaviors and change myself to a man you would want to be with.
You are a driving force in my life and the greatest mother to our beautiful girls. I�m amazed by your compassion and example as you struggle at my doing. I am with faults and in need of recognizing and correcting them but want nothing more than to do so.
Your happiness is my priority and I am willing to do whatever you feel is necessary in order for you to feel that joy again. In an effort to show you my commitment to progressing through this path to becoming your husband, I have enclosed letters to the other women which outline my love for you and our family. It�s been some time since I�ve had any communication with them, but it states I will not have any further contact with them, and request that the do not contact me. No more impulsiveness, no more inappropriate situations with the opposite sex, nothing. I want to be completely transparent in all that I do and that is why I supplied you with my usernames and passwords for you to feel like I have nothing to hide from you and I encourage you to look in at my progress. Holly, divorce is not what I want. A broken family is not what Heavenly Father wants from us. I am the reason for this though and have great determination to change this course. I require nothing from you as I will do all of the heavy lifting here. I know that you loved me before and I am confident that with an extraordinary amount of hard work and faith that I can get that back, as your husband."







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TB,

Jim just handed you the letter needed.....

I guess he got tired of seeing you flail around like a fish out of water. <shrug>

(That was well written Jim)






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Now that you have the letter you wanted.... How about getting to work on yourself??

I'm still curious....

What changes are you willing to make in your life? And Why?

And I don't mean, "be a better husband" type of responses. I'm more interested in hearing some of the details of HOW you will go about becoming a better person, husband, dad, etc. Also, What steps are you planning/willing to take?

toe tap





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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