what does that mean?? You Americans suck??

It means Happy Holidays...Mel, you silly Texan....

Atena,

Just catching up.

Quick question. Why don't your rent your apartment out and then relocate to another apartment? Isn't there a good rent pool there? Instead of leaving your place vacant you can just swap one place for another at the same cost till a job comes through?

Very happy that your son will be there to visit. I hope he turns his father down flat to "meet" the OW.

Take care and God bless...

Hi all, just an update..I am going to empty the marital place of all our belongins between Jan and Fen and then if it has not sold I will rent it out till it sells. My brother will help me with this so I feel better now because i have a plan.

I have been down a lot mostly because I m starting to notice other men around me (co workers, friends of friends, aquitances...)and they all seem to have even more problems than WH. I made a point of noticing and all of them have major issues such as alcoholism, cheating on their wives, major health issues, unemployment, mental issues...
Then I tell myself that WH looks good compared and I miss him even more.
Where are all these better men? Even for the sake of curiosity (since I m not interested in dating) who says that there is much better out there....when there is not?
I think OW got a good prize with WH, who is handsome, employed well read and fun to be with....ok, he is wayward, but they all seem to have major issues. Sometimes I can see why OW go after a married man....if the situtation out there is so poor actually scary.
Of course I am not saying I would go after a M man, but i can see the level of desperation in some women who have been alone for years in a jungle of messed up "single" men...
Is this a new trend where men are so out of wack?
blessing

Atena, there ARE good men out there. Seeing the posts and countless threads from BHs shows me proof of that.

Maybe there are. I have not seen any and the ones I have seen are married, so off bounds, or pining after a cheating spouse hoping to (rightfully so) save a M.
Seriously...it is very sad out there. And I am not interested in dating. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be for a single woman with integrity to enter the dating zoo!
I miss my H, I do. I still do and will always love him
blessing

Just read your posts. Gotta tell ya, your holding up pretty well. I hope I do so well when I begin Plan B. Your story is so similar to mine. This is the second go around. This time is much more serious with OW. Was he just testing the waters with the first one? I don't know. Anyway, I feel your pain.

Queenie, question: Was your husband an alcoholic? I read you would hold your torah and AA books while you rocked yourself to sleep at night. Just wondering, since my WH is an alc.

You all give such good advice.

mitzie

yes, the second time looks more serious because they decided to leave the family for OW so it must be that they truly convinced themselves that the M was not worth saving. I think our WHs have a similar train of thought. My WH is son of alcoholics and he himself drinks his fare share even if he is not a fallen down drunk.
I think this second OW is important to them because otherwise they would have to admit they were wrong...
so my gist is..they will try and make it work out with her and put so much effort just to prove they were right about leaving us for her. My WH will never admit he is wrong. He is convinced OW has so much in common with him and now it has been over a year after exposure (I did a nuclear one) and the A seems to still be going....but who knows what their relatioship is really like.
More than anything Mitzie..I always remind myself of what MelodyLane told me a while ago: "Atena you are looking at this all wrong...it is not that he will not come back....YOu do not want him back! not the way he is!!!"
You are in control now. The bar is set really high. We have to. After their first A we took them back too fast and they showed no sign of repentance. My WH went as far as to say that first OW helped him, that he would have committed suicide without her given he was so unhappy! He also said he was not sorry about it and that the M was terrible and he had no other choice: either have the A or kill himself. WOW. That is repantance?
I should have told him to take a hike and come back when he made sense and felt some remorse....
blessing

aetna,
I agree with you. I should have given him the boot 3 years ago. My oldest DS told me I should have, but my younger DS is a daddy's boy and just wanted his dad back, he still does. That makes me sad.

No I don't want him back! Not the him the way he is now.

My WH is also convinced he and OW are so much alike. They are kindred spirits. He thinks G-d put them together! My WH will never admit to being wrong, ever. I beleive this is a trait of narcisstic personality disorder

My WH also said the first A helped him. Showed him what "LOVE" was! I was dumb. I chalked the first A up to lust. He did not. He was searching, these past 3 years...I'm sure of it, for SOMEONE to rekidle those feelings of "LOVE" in him. He found it.

When the first A happened I took my wedding & engagement ring and threw them in the small lake we have in our back yard. My WH never wore a wedding band, so now we both didn't. My one DS asked why I didn't wear a wedding ring (in front of my WH), I told him I would wear one when dad was ready to give me another and commit to this marriage. He never did. He brought that up when he told me about 2nd A. He said, "Why do you think I never bought you another wedding ring? Because I'm not in love with you, that's why". OMG that hurt so bad. I just sat there stunned,I was always sure that one day he would buy that ring. I actually thought our marriage was getting better. What a fool.

Atena, glad you have a plan about moving. New year resolution that is positive step for you.

Don't dwell on the dating pool out there. I get lonely but for my XH when he was a real man. I have been D a year and have no desire to date. I like my own company better! Maybe I can date myself?? I am the perfect person to meet my ENs

I think what did OW get? An old looking bloated drunk who destroyed his career and declared bankruptcy. What a catch.

We had the good years. I know I don't want a man like that and that is what keeps me going. If the real H ever returns I will know it. Till then...I work on me.

Blessings.

On the forum I keep hearing the famous
"if and when he(she) hits rock bottom!"

What is the definition of hitting rock bottom?
Does it only apply to alcoholics?

Thank you
Blessing

As in all addictions including A, there comes a point when the wayward (Think Days of Wine and Roses), When they hit bottom there will be remorse, shame, regret and the only place to go is up.

It is not just for addicts but for Ws

Atena, I think men live up to the standards required of them by women. If you don't require much, you won't get much. That happened to a lot of us here.

I think women are sometimes far too accepting of far too little because they don't want to be accused of being a "demanding b*tch", and think they are being helpful and reasonable and unselfish by not asking for much.

But there is a middle ground between between being a selfish drama queen and just settling for crumbs. It's our job to find it.

"Hitting rock bottom" is usually defined as "it hurts more to be an addict than it does to stop."

But even if an addict or a WS does hit bottom as defined above, that is NO guarantee that they'll come back.

They might be too ashamed. They might think they've done too much damage. Or their basic personality may have changed so much from the damage they've done to it that they're not even the same person anymore.

atena, you must stop waiting and hoping that he'll hit "rock bottom" or that something will "wake him up". From what you have posted, he is perfectly content with his promiscuous lifestyle and has no reason to change it. There are just too many women out there who ARE willing to settle for part-time and crumbs, and believe me, he can't understand why you're not.

And plenty of addicts and waywards never do hit bottom. They go through life with enough enablers to always get them through and keep their drug coming. Your WH has gravitated to that sort of person and he has no reason to change.

But you do.

I dont see dating anywhere in my near future either....So dont even worry about that right now, atena...you are no where near ready IMO....

I will know when I am ready and so will you...I too, like you, dont think there are any good men out there for me(or anyone for that matter)....I think that they all have a one track mind and dont care about anyone unless they are perfect. And they can only be perfect when you are not married to them. Then when its not perfect anymore they dump you and move on... but I know that my WH ruined my thoughts on men....I just dont think I can ever trust anyone again, or maybe I shouldnt anyway...But I wouldnt want some guy that used to be nice then cheated and left his family for me...to me thats a loser...My WH is a loser to me right now...Yours is too, we just think of the good stuff...

I am jaded in my thinking and I know that means that I am in no way ready to date....maybe I will never be...and as for your WH hitting rock bottom...It will happen, but prolly not in your time frame...It might not be until 10 years from now, no one knows so dont count on it...just live your life as best you can. Worry about that when it happens, not now...by the time it does your prolly wont even care anymore, thats the sad part.

I am always giving you hugs atena, but I think you need them to help you be strong...(((((atena))))

Still,Hope, Mulan ,Mizti,
thank you for your support and for reminding me what he is.
BUT some things are just infuriating, please allow me to vent because it has been a bad bad day:
The woman (Lilly) who gave me hospitality for 3 weeks when I first discovered the A....she (and her husband) knows what I went thru and still she talks, sits at lunch and laughs with WH while a few months ago she simply avoided him. This woman is 60 years old and shares a lot of the views my WH shares in terms of labor rights and politics. WH is well read and involved in the union so is she. Since I am not I think that, with time, the affinity he had with him when we were still together is coming back.
But how can she sit at lunch with him, talk to him and laugh with him when she knows what he did to me and our son!? Her son and ours are best friends.
She should vomit when she sits with him at lunch not talk to him or even laugh with him!!!! She used to stand up and leave at lunch when he sat down...now she no longer does so....

My WH acts very self assured, if I had done what he did and knew other people knew�I would dig a hole and put myself in it�.how can he be that way?????
He knows people know, especially he knows I spent 3 weeks at Lilly's and her H and that they know all the details.
Now, during the holiday her son and mine are coming back and probably Lilly's H, who I am sure does not know that Lilly talks to WH, is going to invite me and son for dinner. What should I do?
I do not want anything to do with Lilly any longer. In the past month or so, since union activities started full blast again, she has been avoiding me. I think she feels guilty about her talking to WH about union and pay raise....
But her H is a very nice man (he is 80 years old and like a dad to me) and her son is like my own son as he is so much friends with mine.
I do not want to end my friendship with this family which has been so supportive to me during hard times...but Lilly's forgiving bahaviour with WH is something I can't stand....
please help!
blessing

Yeah, that is a tough one....I think unless someone has been through what we have that they just dont truly understand how disgusting our WHs really are...If I knew that someone left their family for OP, I would tell them to their face the reason why I will not associate with them ever again...unless of course they fix their mistake...

Obviously since she is avoiding you...she knows what she is doing is wrong....if it were me I would say something to her. See what she has to say about it...I have mutual friends that I have told that they could be social with WH, just dont tell me about it and dont talk to him about me....and they have chosen not to associate in anyway with WH, thankfully.

It is a tough situation with mutual friends and you have to decide whether you want to still talk to her if she associates with WH....and if you make a decision I would let her know the reason for it. You could choose to just be a casual acquaintence and not talk to her about anything substantial...you could choose not to talk to her at all...

Lilly is the one and only who actually confronted WH over a year ago and who told him he was making a huge mistake and hurtin me and my son.
That is why I am so surprized by her behavior..however Lilly is an active alcoholic and I think her drinking now also takes place on the workplace....
Maybe she is losing it or losing her right judgment.
However, WH is a charmer both in looks and manners so he has been able to win lots of his collegue back, even the ones who had a hard time with him in the past....
He sure does not look like he is any where near hitting rock bottom...I think I am nearer that he is...
blessing

Yeah, I know how you feel atena...I think I hit my rock bottom shortly after Dday....but anyway, my WH is exactly the same as yours...He is good lookin and has a gorgeous sincere smile...but as I always say...I heard Ted Bundy did too..

Me, well I have been a physical and emotional wreck since this all happened...I dont know that they necessarily win these people back. I think that just, unfortunately, over time others just slowly let themselves forget what WH did or it is just easier for them that way....as for us, we cannot forget the pain, cuz we lived it...and you dont know what is in others minds...

I know that my WH goes to pick up DS from school and yuks it up with the parents. prolly thinkin they all love him. Then the next day I hear about what was going on in their minds through their smiles...they say all they think is how they used to think how good lookin and nice he was and now they dont see him that way anymore...they say they dont even think he is good lookin anymore, they just see a scumbag. They say they look a DS and say too bad he is stuck with such a selfish father.

Looks are not everything ya know. People can see through a fake sincere smile when they know the truth....

Still, I am sorry to hear about you being so down emotionally. These things take a long time and I know it will take me a long long time to get over him. I only had 2 man in my entire life: my first love, a boyfriend when I was 18 and then my WH. I am the faithful dedicated type and what eats me up is how my WH can go thru his daily life not feeling any remorse for what he did...and actually facing the world as if what he did is perfectly normal...
I will never understand that..maybe because it is not posssible to.
I know you feel the same.
Looks are not everything and will fade, sooner than they think. Those nice smiles are fakes and people, as you stated, can sense it....
I miss my H the way he was...but I set the bar so low for him and in a way I could only expect what i got from him,,,
blessing