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Hi all,
I've been reading this site for quite some time and was hoping that I wasn't going to need advice. I've been married for over 14 years. My husband and I were struggling in our relationship for quite some time. He travels a lot for work, I work full time, we have two beautiful children - 11 and 7, so life is busy and complicated. I started to get suspicious a couple of months ago so one day when he was out for a run I went through his email. I quickly found an email from the OW with pictures of the two of them kissing. It turned out that while he was traveling in another country for work he was having an affair. He swore up and down it had only been going on a few months, that he was confused and to give him time to think. So, we went into couple's counseling and the two ground rules we agreed to were no contact with the OW and neither of us would contact attorneys. We both agreed. We've been seeing the counselor, and we both have ICs. I thought we were making some good progress. We have been intimate with each other and spending a lot of time together and I've expressed my love to him (but he could not bring himself to say I love you back). I was doing a great job at Plan A.

He was very protective of his phone, however. I gave him until January 1 to make a real commitment whether to stay in the marriage. Well, tonight, my smart suspicious side took over. I figured out how to get the phone records from his travel cell phone which he uses when he's overseas for work. He had called the OW over 15 times in a week so I was pissed. I called him about an hour ago and it was 3 a.m. where he was to confront him. He admitted everything, saying how sorry he was (yet the whore OW was in bed with him at that very moment). He said he wants to come home. I told him that our home wasn't his home any longer.

I don't know what to do. Do I just give up on him - clearly there's a huge integrity issue. It just kills me to think about what this will do to my kids. Any advice from the veterans would be greatly appreciated.


Me: 43
STBXH: 46
DD: 13
DS: 9
Married 15 years
D Day #1 9/25/10
D Day #2 12/13/10
False recoveries in between and until 4/4/11
WH moved out 12/11
Divorce not final
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So sorry you're here. What country is he in? Not that it's relevant.

The first thing everyone is going to encourage you to do, whether you're wish to save your marriage or not, is expose.

You must expose to everyone who can put pressure on this affair.

Do you think this is the first time he's done this? Have you looked at his email accounts or other records to know if he's done this before?

What do you wish to do? Save things? End it?


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I don't want to mention the country - you're right it's not relevant.
His family knows, my family knows, some of our friends know. I can't really expose in the other country because I don't know her friends. OW is supposedly unmarried and 40. Husband and I are both in our 40s - he's 44 and I'm 41.

I think it's the first affair, but I don't currently have access to his email (he made sure of that after Dday 1). I can't even get access to his computer or cell phone.

Up until 2 hours ago I wanted desperately to save things. The second betrayal is much harder than the first. I thought we were on a good path - talking, seeing a counselor. Now I don't know if it's hopeless. He's calling me soon.


Me: 43
STBXH: 46
DD: 13
DS: 9
Married 15 years
D Day #1 9/25/10
D Day #2 12/13/10
False recoveries in between and until 4/4/11
WH moved out 12/11
Divorce not final
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have you started your exposure to friends and family members?
I would print the travel cells. Install keylogger and also get any other information you can.

Perhaps go plan b

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Originally Posted by foreignaffair
I don't know what to do. Do I just give up on him - clearly there's a huge integrity issue. It just kills me to think about what this will do to my kids. Any advice from the veterans would be greatly appreciated.

Don't give up. Just change the conditions that led to the affair. That means he comes home and doesn't travel with you over night again. In order to save your marriage, the conditions that led to the affair must change. You can't continue to send the alcoholic into the bar and expect him to not drink. The solution is to stay out of the bar.

I would let him come home. There is an integrity problem but that is MINOR compared to the ADDICTION problem. Solve the addiction problem and you will solve the integrity. Your counselors should have told you right off this would not work as long as your H continued to travel.

Change the conditions, change the conditions and there is HOPE.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley in Requirements for Recovery
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the wayward spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by foreignaffair
Up until 2 hours ago I wanted desperately to save things. The second betrayal is much harder than the first. I thought we were on a good path - talking, seeing a counselor. Now I don't know if it's hopeless. He's calling me soon.

It is not hopeless. Unfortunately, the first step towards affair proofing your marriage was never taken. It is hopeless if he continues to travel without you. RElying on hope and will power will not work. The temptation has to be removed by changing the environment.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Sounds to me that you WH wants both of best worlds, he will not stop until he is out of the fog. I would plan B since you have already done a plan A. Find an IM and go dark. Write your plan B letter and post it here so we can help.

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Originally Posted by foreignaffair
I think it's the first affair, but I don't currently have access to his email (he made sure of that after Dday 1). I can't even get access to his computer or cell phone.

He cut off your access to his email?? Wow, that is a dead giveaway of a cheater who is hiding something. How in the world did he ever explain that?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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He has to give you transparncy immediatly.

Last edited by RegardingLuv; 12/13/10 10:53 PM.
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He called and wants to fly home. Do I let him? What do I say when he returns home? Do I continue plan A or go to plan B and kick him out? He admitted that he loves her so is there really anything I can do?


Me: 43
STBXH: 46
DD: 13
DS: 9
Married 15 years
D Day #1 9/25/10
D Day #2 12/13/10
False recoveries in between and until 4/4/11
WH moved out 12/11
Divorce not final
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Originally Posted by foreignaffair
He called and wants to fly home. Do I let him? What do I say when he returns home? Do I continue plan A or go to plan B and kick him out? He admitted that he loves her so is there really anything I can do?

Yes, there is lots you can do. Is he willing to quit his job and end his affair?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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No, he definitely won't quit his job, it's his own business and it's not so simple - he's got contractual obligations that would ruin him financially if he stopped. I don't know if he's willing to end the affair. I told him on the phone he could come home if was willing to end the affair. Is that naive?


Me: 43
STBXH: 46
DD: 13
DS: 9
Married 15 years
D Day #1 9/25/10
D Day #2 12/13/10
False recoveries in between and until 4/4/11
WH moved out 12/11
Divorce not final
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 54
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If you want to safe your marriage then he needs to come home.

So what if he says he loves her. Do not give him an out, he loves you as well or he wouldn't have tried to work. Right now he wants his cake and eat it to.

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Originally Posted by foreignaffair
No, he definitely won't quit his job, it's his own business and it's not so simple - he's got contractual obligations that would ruin him financially if he stopped. I don't know if he's willing to end the affair. I told him on the phone he could come home if was willing to end the affair. Is that naive?

Here is the thing, this is not going to work unless he stops traveling without you. I would find a solution to that before you move forward.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Quote
I told him on the phone he could come home if was willing to end the affair. Is that naive?

No, you are not naive. You are being kind, forgiving and taking into consideration the needs of your children.
It have been mentioned by others to tell your children and I agree. I see your children are 3 and 6. Mine were 10, 7 and 4 when it all came out and I told them. It is important to tell the truth. My advice is if they ask 'don't you love us, Mummy?' say, 'Of course I love you very much. I'm just a bit upset because I'm afraid Daddy might love another woman instead of me.' Try to say it with too not much intensity of emotion as this is frightening to small children but they will hear the truth in your voice.

It sounds as though he is trying to come back to you and the efforts he's making are not bad, relatively speaking (given the addiction, I mean). I suggest that you try to recover the marriage without thinking too much about the future and if you can trust him again. You will see very clearly later if you can or not and then you can opt out if you need to. But make sure that the conditions for recovery you impose are stringent. MelodyLane is right, accepting less is setting yourself up for failure. Recovery is tough enough in the best of conditions.

Last edited by tully; 12/14/10 07:42 AM. Reason: mistake above should have put in NOT

Courage is the most important of all the virtues, because without courage you can't practice any other virtue consistently. You can practice any virtue erratically, but nothing consistently without courage.
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Hi f a,

I am one of the few regular posters here whose H had an affair through his international travelling job.

We live in London. My H travelled to Belgium perhaps twice per month for one or two nights each trip. He also travelled about twice per year to another European Union country.

He met OW in Belgium through his job. She was a client of his organisation. She was married with two teenaged kids. They would normally go to his hotel room in Brussels for sex during the day. After a few months, OW got a part-time job that required travel to various European Union countries 3 or 4 times per year. My H simply told me that he was required to travel to these countries with HIS job, and would then take one or two days' annual leave and travel with her. I had no idea that he was doing this because, as you know, it is easy to hide evidence of an affair abroad. The WH does not make excuses to go out and walk the dog. He does not come home late from work. He does not come home smelling of perfume because he showers in his hotel and calms down over the several hours it takes him to travel back home.

I am bumping a thread called "False recovery: need voices of experience" that you should read through. Every story on it will re-enforce the advice you are being given here to change the conditions that made the affair possible, and to expose it to key people.

My own story is explained there in my post dated 25 February 2009. It is a long post, but I hope it will help you see what you need to do to avoid another false recovery.

You do not need to end your marriage now because of your H's lies. To save the marriage, you need to allow him home and not allow him to travel without you ever again - not even once. If he travels again without you he will have "closure" sex with OW that will not produce closure; these meetings never do. The only way to "close" an affair is to immediately stop contacting the other person, having sent a no-contact letter telling them never to contact the BS again.

The result of any further travel without you will be that your H seeks more fixes of his affair addiction. He will promise you never to see OW again, the he will see her, and promise not to let her down.

If this OW is indeed single, then she is a particular threat to your marriage. She has nothing to lose by going all out to get your H. This happened to the poster tully, who posted just above me on this thread.

In my case, the fact that OW was married did not make her give up when my H said the affair was ending, but exposure to her H DID. If my H had said he would leave me and she should leave her H she would have done it, but when my H said he wanted to stay with me, she had her marriage to fall back on, and she stayed put.

A single OW in her 30s or 40s has every incentive to fight for the permanent relation she wants with your H.

By the sound of it, your H is abroad at the moment. How long is he due to be away? When would he be due to go back, and for how long?

What you should do now depends on whether you can get him to stop travelling without you.


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You need to do some detective work on this woman. If you don't know who she is, you do not know what you are dealing with, and you do not know how to expose effectively.

Do you have her name? Can you ask your H for her name, without tipping him off that you will be doing internet searches?

Do you know how they met? Is she connected to his work?

If you have a name, do a Google search on her. You might be able to find a Facebook page or an employer. I found OW's home address, phone number, husband's name and work number and her employment details within 5 minutes of my search. I used the contact details to expose to her H, and that eventually stopped this 4- year affair that had gone through about 6 D Days.

If her employer is a client of your H's business, you might be able to expose to her employers. They might terminate her connection with his business.


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SC ~

Did your H profess his love for the OW to you? Like you said, she had her M to fall back on when your H ended the A...

However, the OW in FA's life is single. In reading between the lines, I am supposing that she has also professed her love to FA's WH...

I wonder if the OW, out of desperation & pride, will fight tooth and toenail to "win" FA's H! And, she probably has some pretty insidious ideas about how she can accomplish her "mission"!
mad

FA MUST tell her H that he will NEVER, EVER travel overnight without her! Right?
Her H must hear her "revelation" in a way SO THAT he understands it is "NON-NEGOTIABLE"! Right?
Then, his acceptance or rejection of her "decision" will determine how/when FA incorporates MB Plans. Right?

Please help me understand your perspective so that I can learn. smile

FA ~ I am sad that you are going through this!
With small children, it will be VERY difficult for you to leave them in order to be with your H.
However, I hope you will put this AFFAIR in its proper perspective...
Will it be MORE difficult for you and your children IF you do not leave them in order to be with your H when he travels?

God Bless ~
lashes






"Now is the time for all good MB Veterans to come to the aid of their MB Rookies!"
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Originally Posted by LadyP8Riot
[color:#663366][b]SC ~

Did your H profess his love for the OW to you? Like you said, she had her M to fall back on when your H ended the A...

However, the OW in FA's life is single. In reading between the lines, I am supposing that she has also professed her love to FA's WH...

"Professing love" in a sleazy affair is the rule, rather than the exception. It has no bearing on the outcome of recovery.

Quote
I wonder if the OW, out of desperation & pride, will fight tooth and toenail to "win" FA's H! And, she probably has some pretty insidious ideas about how she can accomplish her "mission"!
mad

Yes, they often do!

Quote
FA MUST tell her H that he will NEVER, EVER travel overnight without her! Right?
Her H must hear her "revelation" in a way SO THAT he understands it is "NON-NEGOTIABLE"! Right?
Then, his acceptance or rejection of her "decision" will determine how/when FA incorporates MB Plans. Right?

Please help me understand your perspective so that I can learn. smile

Righto. I posted Dr Harley's perspective on this above. The conditions that led to the affair must be removed. Spending the night apart is always an invitation for an affair. And this has proven true in her case.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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The bigger point about demanding an end to traveling apart is that the marriage CAN'T recover as long as they apart. THAT is why it is non negotiable. There is no reason to stay around in a marriage that you KNOW will have future affairs otherwise.

FA, the basic problem here is that there was too much trust and no boundaries. A complete and utter lack of boundaries has brought your marriage to this sad place.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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