Hi all,
I've been reading this site for quite some time and was hoping that I wasn't going to need advice. I've been married for over 14 years. My husband and I were struggling in our relationship for quite some time. He travels a lot for work, I work full time, we have two beautiful children - 11 and 7, so life is busy and complicated. I started to get suspicious a couple of months ago so one day when he was out for a run I went through his email. I quickly found an email from the OW with pictures of the two of them kissing. It turned out that while he was traveling in another country for work he was having an affair. He swore up and down it had only been going on a few months, that he was confused and to give him time to think. So, we went into couple's counseling and the two ground rules we agreed to were no contact with the OW and neither of us would contact attorneys. We both agreed. We've been seeing the counselor, and we both have ICs. I thought we were making some good progress. We have been intimate with each other and spending a lot of time together and I've expressed my love to him (but he could not bring himself to say I love you back). I was doing a great job at Plan A.

He was very protective of his phone, however. I gave him until January 1 to make a real commitment whether to stay in the marriage. Well, tonight, my smart suspicious side took over. I figured out how to get the phone records from his travel cell phone which he uses when he's overseas for work. He had called the OW over 15 times in a week so I was pissed. I called him about an hour ago and it was 3 a.m. where he was to confront him. He admitted everything, saying how sorry he was (yet the whore OW was in bed with him at that very moment). He said he wants to come home. I told him that our home wasn't his home any longer.

I don't know what to do. Do I just give up on him - clearly there's a huge integrity issue. It just kills me to think about what this will do to my kids. Any advice from the veterans would be greatly appreciated.

So sorry you're here. What country is he in? Not that it's relevant.

The first thing everyone is going to encourage you to do, whether you're wish to save your marriage or not, is expose.

You must expose to everyone who can put pressure on this affair.

Do you think this is the first time he's done this? Have you looked at his email accounts or other records to know if he's done this before?

What do you wish to do? Save things? End it?

I don't want to mention the country - you're right it's not relevant.
His family knows, my family knows, some of our friends know. I can't really expose in the other country because I don't know her friends. OW is supposedly unmarried and 40. Husband and I are both in our 40s - he's 44 and I'm 41.

I think it's the first affair, but I don't currently have access to his email (he made sure of that after Dday 1). I can't even get access to his computer or cell phone.

Up until 2 hours ago I wanted desperately to save things. The second betrayal is much harder than the first. I thought we were on a good path - talking, seeing a counselor. Now I don't know if it's hopeless. He's calling me soon.

have you started your exposure to friends and family members?
I would print the travel cells. Install keylogger and also get any other information you can.

Perhaps go plan b

Don't give up. Just change the conditions that led to the affair. That means he comes home and doesn't travel with you over night again. In order to save your marriage, the conditions that led to the affair must change. You can't continue to send the alcoholic into the bar and expect him to not drink. The solution is to stay out of the bar.

I would let him come home. There is an integrity problem but that is MINOR compared to the ADDICTION problem. Solve the addiction problem and you will solve the integrity. Your counselors should have told you right off this would not work as long as your H continued to travel.

Change the conditions, change the conditions and there is HOPE.

here

It is not hopeless. Unfortunately, the first step towards affair proofing your marriage was never taken. It is hopeless if he continues to travel without you. RElying on hope and will power will not work. The temptation has to be removed by changing the environment.

Sounds to me that you WH wants both of best worlds, he will not stop until he is out of the fog. I would plan B since you have already done a plan A. Find an IM and go dark. Write your plan B letter and post it here so we can help.

He cut off your access to his email?? Wow, that is a dead giveaway of a cheater who is hiding something. How in the world did he ever explain that?

He has to give you transparncy immediatly.

He called and wants to fly home. Do I let him? What do I say when he returns home? Do I continue plan A or go to plan B and kick him out? He admitted that he loves her so is there really anything I can do?

Yes, there is lots you can do. Is he willing to quit his job and end his affair?

No, he definitely won't quit his job, it's his own business and it's not so simple - he's got contractual obligations that would ruin him financially if he stopped. I don't know if he's willing to end the affair. I told him on the phone he could come home if was willing to end the affair. Is that naive?

If you want to safe your marriage then he needs to come home.

So what if he says he loves her. Do not give him an out, he loves you as well or he wouldn't have tried to work. Right now he wants his cake and eat it to.

Here is the thing, this is not going to work unless he stops traveling without you. I would find a solution to that before you move forward.

No, you are not naive. You are being kind, forgiving and taking into consideration the needs of your children.
It have been mentioned by others to tell your children and I agree. I see your children are 3 and 6. Mine were 10, 7 and 4 when it all came out and I told them. It is important to tell the truth. My advice is if they ask 'don't you love us, Mummy?' say, 'Of course I love you very much. I'm just a bit upset because I'm afraid Daddy might love another woman instead of me.' Try to say it with too not much intensity of emotion as this is frightening to small children but they will hear the truth in your voice.

It sounds as though he is trying to come back to you and the efforts he's making are not bad, relatively speaking (given the addiction, I mean). I suggest that you try to recover the marriage without thinking too much about the future and if you can trust him again. You will see very clearly later if you can or not and then you can opt out if you need to. But make sure that the conditions for recovery you impose are stringent. MelodyLane is right, accepting less is setting yourself up for failure. Recovery is tough enough in the best of conditions.

Hi f a,

I am one of the few regular posters here whose H had an affair through his international travelling job.

We live in London. My H travelled to Belgium perhaps twice per month for one or two nights each trip. He also travelled about twice per year to another European Union country.

He met OW in Belgium through his job. She was a client of his organisation. She was married with two teenaged kids. They would normally go to his hotel room in Brussels for sex during the day. After a few months, OW got a part-time job that required travel to various European Union countries 3 or 4 times per year. My H simply told me that he was required to travel to these countries with HIS job, and would then take one or two days' annual leave and travel with her. I had no idea that he was doing this because, as you know, it is easy to hide evidence of an affair abroad. The WH does not make excuses to go out and walk the dog. He does not come home late from work. He does not come home smelling of perfume because he showers in his hotel and calms down over the several hours it takes him to travel back home.

I am bumping a thread called "False recovery: need voices of experience" that you should read through. Every story on it will re-enforce the advice you are being given here to change the conditions that made the affair possible, and to expose it to key people.

My own story is explained there in my post dated 25 February 2009. It is a long post, but I hope it will help you see what you need to do to avoid another false recovery.

You do not need to end your marriage now because of your H's lies. To save the marriage, you need to allow him home and not allow him to travel without you ever again - not even once. If he travels again without you he will have "closure" sex with OW that will not produce closure; these meetings never do. The only way to "close" an affair is to immediately stop contacting the other person, having sent a no-contact letter telling them never to contact the BS again.

The result of any further travel without you will be that your H seeks more fixes of his affair addiction. He will promise you never to see OW again, the he will see her, and promise not to let her down.

If this OW is indeed single, then she is a particular threat to your marriage. She has nothing to lose by going all out to get your H. This happened to the poster tully, who posted just above me on this thread.

In my case, the fact that OW was married did not make her give up when my H said the affair was ending, but exposure to her H DID. If my H had said he would leave me and she should leave her H she would have done it, but when my H said he wanted to stay with me, she had her marriage to fall back on, and she stayed put.

A single OW in her 30s or 40s has every incentive to fight for the permanent relation she wants with your H.

By the sound of it, your H is abroad at the moment. How long is he due to be away? When would he be due to go back, and for how long?

What you should do now depends on whether you can get him to stop travelling without you.

You need to do some detective work on this woman. If you don't know who she is, you do not know what you are dealing with, and you do not know how to expose effectively.

Do you have her name? Can you ask your H for her name, without tipping him off that you will be doing internet searches?

Do you know how they met? Is she connected to his work?

If you have a name, do a Google search on her. You might be able to find a Facebook page or an employer. I found OW's home address, phone number, husband's name and work number and her employment details within 5 minutes of my search. I used the contact details to expose to her H, and that eventually stopped this 4- year affair that had gone through about 6 D Days.

If her employer is a client of your H's business, you might be able to expose to her employers. They might terminate her connection with his business.

SC ~

Did your H profess his love for the OW to you? Like you said, she had her M to fall back on when your H ended the A...

However, the OW in FA's life is single. In reading between the lines, I am supposing that she has also professed her love to FA's WH...

I wonder if the OW, out of desperation & pride, will fight tooth and toenail to "win" FA's H! And, she probably has some pretty insidious ideas about how she can accomplish her "mission"!


FA MUST tell her H that he will NEVER, EVER travel overnight without her! Right?
Her H must hear her "revelation" in a way SO THAT he understands it is "NON-NEGOTIABLE"! Right?
Then, his acceptance or rejection of her "decision" will determine how/when FA incorporates MB Plans. Right?

Please help me understand your perspective so that I can learn.

FA ~ I am sad that you are going through this!
With small children, it will be VERY difficult for you to leave them in order to be with your H.
However, I hope you will put this AFFAIR in its proper perspective...
Will it be MORE difficult for you and your children IF you do not leave them in order to be with your H when he travels?

God Bless ~

"Professing love" in a sleazy affair is the rule, rather than the exception. It has no bearing on the outcome of recovery.


Yes, they often do!


Righto. I posted Dr Harley's perspective on this above. The conditions that led to the affair must be removed. Spending the night apart is always an invitation for an affair. And this has proven true in her case.

The bigger point about demanding an end to traveling apart is that the marriage CAN'T recover as long as they apart. THAT is why it is non negotiable. There is no reason to stay around in a marriage that you KNOW will have future affairs otherwise.

FA, the basic problem here is that there was too much trust and no boundaries. A complete and utter lack of boundaries has brought your marriage to this sad place.

OW and WH both say they love each other. WH admitted that last night and tells me that he doesn't feel any love for me. He did break down and cry and said he never meant to hurt me and that I deserve better. He's trying to get on a flight home. It sucks that I'll have to babysit him when he travels if he's even willing to give it a try. At this point, I think I have to move to Plan B. Does anyone have a good letter to use to kick off plan B?

I don't think you should move to Plan B just yet. I'd go Plan A. It is very telling that he is in such a haste to get back home. I suspect he will attempt to negotiate to keep you and your kids in the picture. Use this to your advantage.

Of course he isn't 'going to feel love' for you right now. His head is full of OW. Don't let this upset you. It's called fogbabble. So is 'It's not you, it's ME' or 'You deserve better.' This is all to make you 'feel better' about his leaving you for OW. Let him know that you are in it for the long haul and you don't intend to D him.

Of course they say they love each other. Have you read Surviving An Affair yet?
They are meeting some important emotional needs in each other and probably not love busting much.

It is an illusion that they are so great together.

Read the book!

It will help you plan and make decisions of how to craft your plan A/B

You would go into Plan B if he doesn't agree to stop travel without you and commit to a plan of recovery.

Don't even worry about Plan B at this point. The fact that they are in luuuuurve is meaningless. Alcoholics are in "luuuurve" with alcohol, it doesn't mean the high is going to last.

I agree with bliss that you do not need to move to Plan B right now.

What does H say he wants to do? Is he saying that he wants to stay married?

I think you should wait until he gets home and ask him about his intentions for the marriage. If he wants to stay married, you need to work as a couple on the travel issue. How can you accomplish the "no nights apart" requirement for recovery?

Is it possible for you to leave the children and go with him, every single time? Who would you leave them with?

Is it possible for you and the children to go with him, every single time from now on? Could he perhaps arrange travel so that it only falls within the school hoildays?

Is it possible for him simply to give up travelling? Could he delegate this to someone else? This is what my H did. He told his employers that his marriage was in trouble and that he would not be travelling ever again. He found people to step in for his meetings. Meanwhile, he applied for internal vacancies that required no travel. He stayed on in his post for about 8 months, without travelling, until he got an internal transfer. This was, in fact, a slight demotion, but the loss of money and status meant nothing to either of us because we both wanted to save the marriage.

If my H hadn't been able to make these arrangements, he would have had to resign from his job for our marriage to continue. Once the full truth about his deception came out after 3.5 years of false recovery, I wasn't willing to continue our existing arrangements for one second more.

This is your H's own business. Can he hire someone to do the travelling part of his work, or can he promote someone from within?

An end to travel should be just one of your recovery conditions.

Others should be that:

Your H writes the OW a NC letter. You read and approve this and send it yourself.

He gives you free access to his mobile phone and email accounts.

You give up your MC and IC and use the Harley coaching centre instead. Your counselling so far has not helped end this affair, nor started the rebuilding of your marriage.

You use the MB programme from now on in your marriage.

I am now officially in Plan B, though I'm really not sure there's hope. WH flew back from overseas and was very clear that he wants to separate. We're going to tell our kids this weekend to give them a chance to deal with this over winter break. WH had never cried until today when he was literally sobbing. He's completely scared about where his life is going. I was relatively calm, but I am not going to beg him to stay. I offered to help move his things to the basement bedroom until he can find a place. I've made it crystal clear that I'm not moving anywhere.

My other issue in losing hope is that he won't ever drop the foreign travel and I don't want to follow him there one week a month. That's not a life I can lead - having to spend 25% of my time babysitting him because I can't trust him. So, I'm not sure Plan B will be worthwhile unless I can find another way to trust him.

I don't think you can be, if H is still in the house and you are still talking.

Plan B needs planning. You need an intermediary to deal with messages about the kids. You need to secure your source of income. You need to make pick-up and drop-off arrangements for his visits to the kids; you must not see or communicate with him on these visits.

What plans have you made? When will your H move out?

I am sorry to hear that he wants to separate.

As mentioned
you
are
NOT
in plan B!

Not now. Not soon. You must read the book Surviving An Affair and understand it and the plans to implement them. If you don't implement them per the book.....you are not in them.

Plan A is to lure your spouse back in your direction with the ways you first attracted him. To not lovebust with disrespectful judgements, angry outburst or selfish demands (telling them you will not share them with another woman is a fact not a selfish demand). You look attractive, act attractive, etc. as long as you can do so in the face of a spouse who says they are done with you and you prepare for the darkness of plan B. Plan B is something you must well verse yourself in also. You don't kind of understand its structure. You must understand it clearly and with resolve to implement it.

When you talk to the children, they have to know that there is another woman who is in the picture and don't let your husband sugar coat it. If I had not told my children to deal previously to going to plan B.....my wayward H would have left them clueless. His comments were (sniff, sniff) "Mom and I are having problems and I am leaving. I will always be available to you" vague and unsatisfactory to them and guess what....he is not always available to them. They barely see him. Its sad. Anyway. You are going to be in charge of your childrens spirits dealing with this. Clear honesty. Clear messages of difficulty and being in it together with them to support them though you are in pain. They must understand why they will see you in pain.

I, personally would keep my spouse in my bed and bedroom during plan A....until the very day he moved out. I did so. It is how I did my plan A.

Dear FA ~

I am so sad for you and the children!

My prayers are still with you...


We need to ask the MB Veterans how "honest & open" you need to be this weekend when you & H "talk" with the children... Their feelings of shock, sadness, anger, etc. will need to be addressed in an age-appropriate, healthy manner... I do not know how "honest & open" you can be at their ages...

I perceive that your H is trying to "mask" his self-centeredness & arrogance by

Quote

literally sobbing

I perceive that he will become VERY "upset" and/or "Angry" if you share with your children the "truth" about why "Daddy" is leaving for another W in his presence!!!!!

Poor thing! Why do I NOT feel sorry for him?!?


To think that he may try to manipulate the children into feeling sorry for him ("Having" to leave his W & Children for another W) by demonstrating his "emotional turmoil" by "literally sobbing" in their presence makes me

And, it could be that you should simply stay quiet while dear old Dad shares with the children... Say nothing?!?

Have you been able to gather any information on the OW yet?

Hang in there, Sweetheart!
God Bless

fa, you're not in Plan B yet. And I don't think you need to go there yet, unless you're ready to throw in the towel. If you are, pack up his things and put them on the curb. Change the locks. Plan B is a time when there is no contact between the betrayed spouse and the cheating one.

When you tell the kids, make sure he doesn't try to sugarcoat anything.
"Kids, daddy and I have to talk to you about something very important. Your daddy has chosen to have a girlfriend. Now you know that it's wrong for a married person to have a boyfriend or girlfriend, so we have decided that it would be a good idea to have daddy find another place to live because of this affair."

Your WH can answer any questions they have about his girlfriend.

Make sure they understand that they will always be loved and taken care of.

They will likely have questions such as "Will we have to move/change schools/not see daddy anymore?" Prepare your answers in advance. Don't let this devolve into an argument between your WH and yourself.

And don't let WH dodge his responsibility to tell them the truth. No marital re-writing, no "Your mother and I have been unhappy for a while" None of that. Keep the facts basic.

WH's sobbing is completely self-serving. He doesn't like how HE feels, because he knows what he is doing is wrong and is going to destroy his family. It's all about him, as far as he's concerned.

I completely agree that WY is masking his self centeredness and arrogance by sobbing. I think I may stay quiet while dad shares with the kids. We are talking to a child psychologist tonight to make sure we don't say anything too damaging to the kids. My DD has been seeing her for over a year so she knows her well. She's going to be literally crushed by the news, but I can't protect her from this. My DS is more resilient, but will he will be extremely sad as well.

OW is a mystery to me - part of the problem is language related. I don't speak the language of this country and my WH does - that creates a whole other level of complexity since they speak together in that language.

Still not certain that this marriage is worth saving.

Lady, the concept of open & honest applies to the spouses.

The kids don't need to know the gritty details, but they do need to understand that their family foundation is shifting, why it is shifting, and that they will continue to be safe and be loved.

Don't be surprised if the psychologist says to not tell the kids about the A.
I think a lot of therapists are good in general regarding many issues but pretty clueless about infidelity in a family and how to address it openly and honestly. It is easy to sweep it under the rug and be vague with kids to not deal with it. I think many therapists kind of want to do that.

Do NOT let your WH 'share' with the kids! OMG. You're getting a child psy handler? WHY? It has NOTHING to do with a therapist/handler!

The language thing means NOTHING. NOTHING. I can't believe you are relinquishing your control of your family. Do you plan to end your marriage?

fa, your marriage is far from over. There is much you can do to bust up his affair if you try. Your marriage might be too far gone because of the damage of his traveling job, but if there is a chance, it will come from following the advice in SC's awesome post above. I would find out who this filthy who*e is and expose to her side of the family. When you are finished, contact her and let her know she will be eternally hated by the children and the inlaws for wrecking your family.

She might not even know he is married. And it is very probable that her family would be outraged if they knew she was rolling in the pig pen with some married man. She can't very well darken their door step with him, so exposing to her family would cause huge conflict in the affair by embarrassing them.

Secondly, you will harm your children if you lie to them about this affair and the reasons for the divorce. They should be told WHO, WHAT and WHY. They must know who the enemy is so they can protect themselves. If you don't tell them the full truth, you will be teaching them dishonesty. Your children should know that their dad is abandoning their family for nothing, a cheap ho in a foreign country. They have a RIGHT to know this. You should not whitewash your H's crime to cover up for him.

Any psychologist or "therapist" that tells you to lie to children is giving you harmful advice. Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist with 40 years experience. He is the founder of Marriage Builders and here is what he says about lying to children:

Dr. Harley [ Dr Harley's credentials] on telling the children:

here



here

here

First off, you are not in Plan B. Plan B is a complete and total separation prefaced with a letter stating your conditions.


He is about as "clear" as a falling down drunk. His words mean nothing.


It sounds like you have given up without a single shot being fired. You have surrendered your marriage and your children's father to the OW without a shot being fired.



There is not other way to "trust" him and as you can see it was too much trust that led to the affair in the first place. Yes he will drop foreign travel if he wants his marriage and family bad enough. But he doesn't have to if you continue to surrender your marriage and your children's family without a single shot.

I have to ask who side you are on because I cannot tell. From your posts it looks to me like you are on the side of the OW and her affair. Are you French? [surrender monkies]


What your H needs to maintain his fantasy is for you to cooperate with his intended destruction of your marriage and your children's family. If you go along with this, you will have nothing but a..........destroyed marriage. It is easier for him to destroy your family if you are his "friend" and dont' object while he sticks it to you and your children. You are making it easy for him.

You are also giving him the impression that you really don't care because you won't fight. Won't you at least fight for the sake of your children?

See, the odds are in your favor but since you have handed your husband over to the OW, she wins without a shot fired. 95% of affairs crumble and never make it to marriage. They are doomed because the very traits that made them possible, deceit, thoughtlessness and dishonesty, eventually destroy the affair.

On the other hand, 65% of marriages never end due to an affair. So, the odds are in your favor. But they are not in your favor as long as you persist in snatching DEFEAT from the jaws of victory.

You have NOTHING to lose and everything to gain if you try to save your marriage. No guarantees, but if you follow our advice, we might be able to turn this around.

The language barrier isn't a problem for us. Let us know which country this harlot lives in, and we'll help you track her down, suggest social media to use to contact her friends and family (maybe not facebook) and translate an exposure letter to her language.

FA, are you interested in fighting for your marriage?

It's not yet time to throw in the towel if you're not 100% sure.

And even if you don't want to remain married to this man, is it really in your kids' best interest to have their dad attached to this woman on a different continent. Of course not. You can do your best to break them up regardless.

YESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you, ML, for posting Dr. H's advice in regards to telling children the "truth"!

It is exactly what I was hoping a "MB Veteran" would post! You done good! (As we say in Texas) LOL


Now, FA, "You Go, Girl!"

Honesty & Openness with your children is VITAL!

God Bless ~


FA ~
Please re-read ML's quote from Dr H:

Quote

My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.

The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.

The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).

Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.

It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.

Okay - lots has transpired in the last 24 hours. WH flew home and the kids were of course surprised to see him. We had app't with MC and Child psychologist. He told both he was on the path to separation/divorce. He also contacted a couple potential lawyers. He broke down crying at least twice - reality is really setting in. I had him sleep in the basement and that really got to him (I know people had advised Plan A but I couldn't stomach it last night). DS woke up this morning and came to our room and was confused when WH wasn't there. It really crushed WH - he's in so much fear of making our kids sad - which he should be! The good thing about the child psychologist was that she made it clear that our kids would be crushed. She knows DD very well as DD has been in therapy for about a year. I've also made it clear that if we go the divorce route I won't be in contact. That's crushing him as well - he wants me as his "friend" and has this fantasy that my family will continue to include him. But - starting to realize that his plan is not going to happen. He was so distraught that he didn't go to work today, cancelled app'ts with potential attorneys and made an app't to see our MC by himself.
I am hoping that MC talks some sense into him (which by the way I think he will!) All hope is not lost.
I also may not have mentioned that I emailed OW and copied WH - made it very clear that WH had been making love to me inbetween his overseas romps with her. I think that may have helped make her think twice. I agree that I need to play detective and find out who her family is - I do know her first name, employer, and personal email address. I don't think she's on Facebook even though it's popular in that country.

Did you read our posts?

I have lost all hope if this your only plan. So the plan is to LIE to your daughter? How will your H's absence be explained? More lies?

All hope is not lost, but you are doomed to disappointment if you pin your hopes on a counselor reasoning with your mind-scrambled WH. Ain't gonna happen, as those Texans say.

There is hope if YOU pull yourself together and follow a plan that involves Plan A, followed by Plan B.

You may have done many elements of Plan A up to now, but not with the targeted support of this board. You should not go to Plan B yet, without completing the process.

A combination of widespread exposure, plus meeting your WH's top EN's is where your focus needs to be right now. What you need to be thinking on, preparatory to taking action, is:

1. Who are my exposure targets, for both WH and OW?

2. What are WH's top EN's? Which 2-3 can I meet today?

3. Are there any lovebusters I need to avoid?

Blowing raspberries at OW about your sexual acts with her boyfriend may also cause her to double her efforts to win him away from you. Don't assume you know what the OW is thinking!

So. Your H is living in the basement, seeing some MC and weeping while he figures out how to lie to his children and keep you as a buddy. This does not sound encouraging to me.

I know everyone is giving me a hard time, but we went from almost divorcing yesterday to some positive. I did not love bust at all today and in fact think I added to the love bank. My exposure with his family is working. WH told me that his mother loves me more than him, as does one of his sisters. I think the second betrayal really got to them - finally they see the light! I emailed them right after he admitted being in hotel room with OW. I do think email to OW helped. It's hard to believe that a single woman would want to get wrapped up in so much messiness.

His family has thrown their support your way - fantastic! Now, are you ready to use MB principles to save your M? Is your WH willing?

Everyone is giving you a "hard time" because we want to see you succeed. We want to see you avoid mistakes that will make the job of saving your M much harder, and perhaps even impossible.

GREAT that your IL's support you - that's a fantastic step in the right direction.

Now that s has hit the fan and reality is setting in - talking about custody issues, lawyers, etc WH is thinking of trying again. He again says that he is going to tell OW that they should not contact each other, but he won't put it in writing as I asked. How can I verify/trust without it in writing? How can I get him to understand that?

Have been working hard on his ENs. I still have him sleeping in basement - which I think is working. He's realizing he's the one that is going to be on the outside if we head towards divorce.

Whenever I expose him, he threatens to expose me as a bad wife and make this into a war. How should I respond? For example, I'm going out with my girlfriends tonight and he is in complete panic about what I'm going to say to them (they and their spouses are all in our circle of friends). I told him I need emotional support from people right now.

Great news!


Tell him you'll consider that he's still in the affair until NC letter is sent; you'll accept nothing less. (He's still wayward until he's prepared to meet all your reasonable conditions.)


I'm not sure if MB advises this, but to me it sounds like a perfect solution. Still under the same roof but he's having to experience some negative consequences. Plus, until you get checked for STDs, you shouldn't be meeting his need for SF anyway. You can be affectionate throughout the day.


That's why exposure should be done to a thoughtfully prepared list of people all at once, not in waves.

Tell him to sing out your failings LOUD AND PROUD. He's threatening you to make you shut up. Tell him to go ahead and do it. Knowing you 'don't care' will take the wind out of his sails on this emotional threat.

fa,

You don't seem to respond to our posts. You come back and update, but you do not answer some of our questions.

It will be no use your H writing a NC letter if he continues travelling to her country.

I asked you what you can do about his travel. I don't think you answered me.

What can you do in the immediate and longer term to make sure that he never travel without you again, or gives up travelling altogether?

He is just scared enough into keeping you BOTH. Since there is no plan to recover the marriage, he now has a plan to keep you BOTH on line so he can avoid the pain of divorce. Is he going to stop traveling?


This is so bad I don't even know where to start. First off, he should never know about exposure. And secondly, your family is falling apart and you are going out?

I don't know what to say to that. It sounds like you have you have you own plan so I don't know what we can do to help you.

I am making it clear to WH that he needs a NC letter.

I don't think I can get WH to stop traveling, but I've also made it clear that I will have to go with him.

I've found ways to check not only his regular cell phone account, but found a calling card he uses and his travel cell phone account.

FA, have you read the thread begun by a new poster savemymarr? Go read his thread to see what happens when there is no plan to recover the marriage.

Threatening to ruin your reputation and make horrible claims about you is probably a common response to exposure.
You stay calm and don't let that keep you from doing it.
A fell swoop needs to be done though.
All exposure possible in a swift tsunami of truth.

He will be scary in response. Prepare to remain calm in your exterier and not wince. Breathe.

If he threatens to lie about you when its done......calmly say "If you lie about me, I will request we both take lie detectors to show the truth of the situation." and smile a sweet, not wicked smile.

The reluctance of a spouse to write a no contact letter is very telling. At this point, your H does not intend to end contact with OW or recover the marriage with you. If you are interested in several examples of false recoveries, take a look at the false recovery thread and the hard lessons learned by the people who have posted on that thread.

AM

BINGO! Please listen to Armymama, she knows what she is talking about. You are headed for a false recovery which is much worse than the initial affair. He intends on keeping you BOTH.

okay - so if it's a false recovery what do I do? Am meeting WH for lunch today. We're supposed to go to FL as a family leaving on Friday to see his MIL. I don't know what to do. I want to spend the week with my kids. Do I stay at a hotel? Do I stay with MIL? Do I stay home? I need help here.

Of course you go. You go and have a good time being the woman he fell in love with. You enjoy family time. Even if it were a false recovery (and I totally am in the group who thinks it is and don't let that bug you too much cause it is basically to be expected from your H at this juncture).

Have no expectations that he is truthful here. Figure he probably IS in contact with OW at this point. Just don't let that affect your actions to lure him into love with you. Heck. Do your best to be the best wife he could have right now. Work on yourself (this will come in handy for you no matter what happens in the future).

Stay wherever your H is staying. MIL house if he is going to stay there.

No what is called lovebusting on the trip. Lovebusters are
angry outbursts
disrespectful judgements
selfish demands (asking the wayward to stop all contact with another person is not a selfish demand if you say that you need this to happen for the marriage to survive and thrive)

He just spent over an hour on the phone with her supposedly telling her they shouldn't contact each other anymore (I have calling card information so I know). He hasn't called me yet to tell me how it went. He has made it clear that he won't lie to me anymore. If he says it was a 5 minute conversation how do I respond? I can't handle the continued lying and deception. It's tearing me up inside.

If he says it was a 5 minute conversation and you know differently, say "You are withholding the truth from me. Try again." Repeat as needed.

This is why it is a better idea to just write a NC letter. It doesn't take an hour to say one paragraph.

I am scared to confront him regarding how long the call was because then he will ask me how I know - and then I'll forever lose that source of tracking his calls.

I mentioned that if we did move forward with rebuilding our marriage that I'd like to travel with him on his business trips. He was not very comfortable with that idea. Again, I sense it's another sign of false recovery.

The problem is not that the call took an hour and that he might lie about its length.

The problem is that there should never have been a phone call at all.

His speaking to her was another form of contact. It was the opposite of NC.

During that conversation she told him that she loved him and that he meant the world to her. How do you think he responded to that? Do you think he said "well I don't love you"?

Hardly. He said that he loved her but could no longer be with her and it was breaking his heart. Is that what you wanted him to say?

She accused him of using her. He had promised to leave you and be with her, and she had waited patiently and faithfully, and now that you have found out he is leaving her. She sounded angry and hurt.

He grovelled that he had not used her and that he DID love her but he could not leave his kids. He played the "kids" card because most women - even skanky hos - will love and respect a man who will put his children first. He convinced her that he is not a user. He calmed her anger.

And so on.

This scenario is exactly why Dr Harley says that the WS must never see or speak to the "lover" (i.e. skanky OW) again, not even to say goodbye. In fact, he writes

How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone.

fa, I have linked some of Dr Harley's Q&A columns here for you to read, but there is no evidence that you have read them or any of the materials here on this site. As I said in an earlier post, we give you very specific Harley advice and ask questions, and you seem to ignore our posts and simply update on the latest events.

I will post Dr Harley's instructions on how an affair should end. It is common sense, really to see why sending a letter (approved and posted by you) and NEVER, ever, speaking to OW is recommended.

This phone call has given your H the fix of the affair addiction that he was craving, and has topped up her love bank balance. He has been shown a picture of a woman dying from the love of him, and he is comparing that to the (rightfully) angry and demanding wife at home. Which do you think he feels love for after that phone call?

OW now understands that he is in a tough spot and will wait and work to win WH back to her. Far from ending the affair, the call has strengthened her resolve. She has learned that despite his promise to you to end the affair, he will put her feelings above yours and speak to her lovingly and at length. She knows that, since he did that today, she will be able to make him do this another day.

I know this script, fa. I have lived through it, many times. I thought you would want to avoid the horrors that other lived through during a false recovery. Do you want to learn from our mistakes? Did you ever read the false recovery thread that I bumped for you last week?

If your H will not write a NC letter and then block OW from his phone and email, then you have your answer about his sincerity. You must not accept the next best thing - a phone call - if he will not send a letter. If he is also showing reluctance to the idea of your travelling every time he goes abroad, then you have more evidence that he does not intend to end the affair.

Do not threaten to leave him. Listen to what he says and tell him your requirements for the marriage to continue. Do not tell him about this website in case he reads your thread, but tell him about NC for life, openness and honesty, and how you must both protect the marriage in future.

If he will not agree to your Harley-led advice, prepare, quietly, for Plan B, in which he leaves your home and you have no contact with your WH.

Here is Dr Harley's advice on the letter:

My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent.

Coping with Infidelity: The End (Part 2)

Okay, he can ask you how you knew. And you can just say "I know." Don't divulge how you know. It's none of his business how you know.

If he's not comfortable with you travelling with him, consider it a .

Whether you call it a false R or no R at all because the A never really ended, your actions need to be the same.

Plan A for 3-6 weeks, and go to Plan B.

All the information is there. Do you have any questions about how to implement it?

I cannot get him to write a no contact letter. He absolutely refuses. How do I do plan A without it? WH claims he wants to work on marriage but says he ended it with OW over the phone. I have been adamant about the no contact letter, but he's incredibly stubborn. What do I do next?

Plan A is all about putting your best wifely self forward even though the affair is continuing. You can't make him go no contact with her and write her the letter. You can tell him that is what you need him to do for you and the family. It is time for negotiation.

You plan A for now. Assume the affair is not over and do show your best self. The woman he originally fell in love with and committed to a marriage with

and

if he is not able to end his affair, for sure, without a doubt end it

you move to plan B

which is where you are no longer negotiating for the affair to end but make your conditions to a marriage with him clear and you remove yourself from the drama and take control of your own self and your own life indefinitely until and unless the affair ends and he is willing to rebuild the marriage.

You can only control your own actions. Your own self. You do the best with what you have control of. You. (Showing improvement where you were lacking, showing strength to move onward with or without him)

It is tough stuff but better than other alternatives.

Exactly!

Need advice on how to respond to email from WH. I had asked him to send a No Contact Letter to OW. Is this a positive sign or just an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for the affair?

"I don�t think we have the luxury of letting things linger too long. A day or two sometimes is good to give everyone a chance to breath and be more reflective before responding to an email like you sent yesterday. But, I am sure we both agree that issues need to be addressed.

In terms of your no contact email request, here�s my view. I already ended my relationship with OW. It�s done and I assure you �no contact� is in place. I will not end it twice, once is enough. I agree to what you requested that all contact with OW is cut off which means no communication through telephone calls, cards, e-mails, text messages, or Facebook. I did this not just for you, but also for me. I think you should view that in a positive way. I did it because we need to figure out if we have a future.

You will have to take my word for it, this is the best I can do.

I think it�s also time that you started to think more about our shared responsibility. This did not happen because you were such great and supportive friend who made me feel loved and worth more than two cents over many many years. I feel very put down, injured, abused and uncared and unloved for many years. If we will recover from this very severe situation of two very damaged and very injured people trying to see if they can each heal their wounds and find a way to love each other, then you will need to share in the responsibility on how we got to this place and how we might be able to move forward together.

I do care about you and will work on this together. We also have to give our maximum for DD and DS. We are both in great pain and neither one of us rang the alarm bell before severe damage was done and (you or I or perhaps both of us) may be beyond the point of being capable of recovering. We are both at fault for how we got here and we both can take the joint responsibility to go to counseling and try to see if there is still a path to repair, heal and rebuild our lives together. I�m in, if you�re in."

"Rather than take your word for it, I would feel safer if you sent a no contact letter to her that we write together and is mailed by me. That would make me feel safer and I would interpret it as a good will gesture from you. I need this kind of gesture from you right now as a demonstration of your sincerity. Since the affair is ended, as you say, you have nothing to lose - and everything to gain - by giving me this good will gesture. It would show me you are sincere and I desperately need to see that now in order to take you seriously.

And yes, I agree I was not the most loving wife and lacked in many areas. I am willing to change those things in our marriage as long as I am assured your affair is ended. I am willing to give you an opporunity to earn my forgiveness if you do certain things. Those things would be to assure me of safety and protection from your adultery and to commit to a program of recovery that ensures we restore the passion and romance in our marriage.

I want our marriage to be a happy, romantic, wonderful relationship and I am willing to work on that, if you are willing to protect me.

I love you, foreignaffair"

p.s. I don't think he is serious. His plan is to keep you online while carrying on his affair.

I would be very surprised if he responds positively to the above letter, but that's ok. If he still won't do it, assume the A is still going on, and carry on a great Plan A while getting ready for Plan B.

If he does respond positively, we can cross that bridge then. I think he will still make excuses and stall.

I like what Mel said, too.

okay - I'm writing back using the advice.

if he writes back with a new excuse to not send the letter, tell him:

"that is not very convincing. I need to see much more to convince me you are sincere. I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my trust, but it must be based on some real action."

Originally Posted by MelodyLane

I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my trust, but it must be based on some real action."

"Real Action" =
"I would feel safer if you sent a no contact letter to her that we write together and is mailed by me."

PERIOD!

FA ~ What ML advises here is NON-NEGOTIABLE if your WH has a chance in 'you-know-where' to begin the healing process with YOU!

WH is trying to slither by making YOU the reason he had an A!
WH is NOT committed to your M!
WH is very good at "GASLIGHTING"!

IMHO...

Agree. At this point, H is not all that interested in ending the A permanently. Even if he verbally told OW not to contact him, in an hour long conversation, you can be certain that much more was said. The door is still open for the future and at the least, your H wants to leave it open. Or he is continuing the A, maybe after a few days of NC. In any case, as a survivor of a false recovery, I recommend you be firm about what your expectations are for ending the A and recovery. No contact should be number one on anyone's list. I am sorry. This is probably not something you want to hear, but it is reality.

AM

Just spent a week away with WH and the kids. We stayed with my MIL and her husband. She by the way spent the entire week pampering me with massage, manicure, pedicure, haircut, makeover, etc, but not once did she ask me how I was doing. I managed to stay pretty positive for the most part - trying my best to be as good as possible in Plan A. He still refuses to do the no contact letter. His idea of regaining my trust is that I have to believe that they aren't in contact. I do have access to his cell phone now and I think they were at least fully out of contact for the week.

I know it's only been a couple of weeks, but I'm still getting blamed for his affair. I feel no sense of shame on his part nor any real willingness to work hard. I think for him it's really all about the kids. He doesn't want to hurt them and/or have to share them with me. He wants to see them everyday and pretend that all is well in the world. He is intimate with me, but not affectionate - he'll hold my hand for a few seconds, but I can tell he's not into it. How long does the fog last?

Any advice on good conversations with WH who is not fully "present" and definitely not open about his feelings and or intentions?

Do not for a moment consider yourself in R. The A has gone deeper underground, and you need to be in a terrific Plan A.

Having a nice weekend at the IL's was a good start. My guess is that MIL is uncomfortable talking about things, so she did her best to show you support and comfort in ways that were easier for her than verbal communication.

Work on yourself, model your half of a good M, and know that in about 3-6 weeks you will almost certainly need to go into Plan B. Meeting his EN's the best you can is very important, and so is snooping. Each time you find something, let him know that you know, without revealing your sources. "I know you're in C with OW. Our M will not R while you continue to C her." "HOW DO YOU KNOW???" "I know. That's what's important."

Don't make threats, ultimatums, or anything of the sort. Just let him know that you know, and that you aren't ok with it. Action and consequences wait until Plan B.

So what do you think WH's top EN's are? Admiration is almost guaranteed to be one of them - be sure to notice and praise him for anything he does that is remotely nice or thoughtful, for you or the kids. SF is another likely one for the top 3, so even if you are not currently sleeping with him, make sure he knows that you find him attractive, and would like to meet this need in the future when you are R.

So read up on Plan A and get started.

What he is saying and doing are the acts of a WS. Even if he states that he has no contact his actions are contradiciting his words. He is still in an affair and is still acting like a WS no matter what he says.

When your WH shows absolutely that he wants to hold your hand and work hard at fixing the marriage then the fog babble stops. There is no time limit when this will happen, and that is why we have plan A and plan B. (I was really hesitant to take it as truth when my WW said that she wanted me and only me in her life.)

To skirt the fog babble you can always reverse fog babble, and to have meaningful converstations talk about the kids, buisness, and stuff you know he is interested in. Keep it light, there is no need to DJ, argue, or bring up the A in every conversation. There is no point in trying to converse about his feelings and intentions, I cant understand them fully but his feelings are the same as an addict, and his intension is to get a fix for his addiction. No point in talking to him about that.

It is really agonizing to not comment about his leaving you and the kids, but that is why plan A is temporary.

Am still struggling with making progress with WH. He says he's not in the affair but he's not giving me full access to everything I've asked for - phone records, etc. I have been able to do some spying and have yet to uncover anything suspicious yet. WH is going to the country where the OW lives at the end of this month. I suggested that I travel with him and he is wavering regarding whether I can join him. How much do I push the issue? He's suggesting we take another trip together somewhere closer (the trip to the affair country takes about 18 hours total). I still have concerns that he will lead a "dual life" if he travels without me.

I also can't get him to make our marriage a priority. Despite the fact we're in crisis mode, work is still consuming him. I'm trying my very best in plan A but am losing my patience!!

Of course he doesn't want you to go to India or China or wherever it is if he is having an affair with someone there. That would be rough for him. Yes it would.

He most likely is having one, you do know that.

Tell him you are going. If he waffles, etc. just say you are going (Super sweet and lovingly).

Then, you may get more info quicker than later. Yes. He will try his best to foil your travel plans. Yes. If you go, he may implode on the trip with you since he will be stressed from the experience.

Can you keep a level head and remain in plan A while doing this?

You might want to call the marriagebuilders coaches for their take on what to do ($195 well spent).

By the end of this month, you will be well within range to go to Plan B. One of two things needs to happen:

1. You go with him on the trip, and he is accountable to you for all his time,

or

2. By the time he gets back, all his stuff is packed and out of the house, and you are in a dark Plan B.

WH reluctantly agreed that I could go on the trip - actually we met with our MC who was a strong supporter of the idea. WH just emailed me and said he bought the ticket. Guess I need to figure out childcare arrangements/ work arrangements now.

Cool.
Make sure you check personally into everything you need to have for the trip (visa, vacines,whatever) so that you can't be stopped at the last minute by unforseen circumstances on that part of the travel. You don't need to tell him you are seeing to it. Just do.

Also, know that if he plans on causing conflict with you at the last moment or even on the trip.....you are prepared for it from inside your sprit to roll with any situation. That you are above any petty stuff to drag your Taker/nasty side out.
Cool as a cucumber. Ultimate wife. Ultimate human being.

Also, know that though you need childcare and work taken care of you are making a stand for your marriage. For your family.

Ok, I need to chime in because I just read your thread and there are a number of similar instances between your thread and my former situation. My H met his POSOW on a business trip. You know what? If he travels, I go with now. No exceptions. If your H is sincere about recovery, he wouldn't blink an eye. You do what you have to do to travel with him, or he DOES NOT GO. Plain and simple.

The whole telephone thing? My H talked to OW for over an hour trying to "break it off" with her. (I was listening.) 2 weeks later we had a false recovery and I landed in a very quick, but luckily semi-prepared, Plan B.

If he's not giving you full access, he's hiding something. My H actually created a new email that I didn't know about at first and password-protected his phone. I broke the code and found out about re-contact. And I "thought" at the time that it was over and I could trust him. Do not let a wayward deceive you. Do not take "his word." Even now, almost a year since D-day, I still check up on him, check emails, computer, phone records, anything and everything. Always be vigilant. But, he also has access to all of my stuff at any time. Open and honest.

Don't listen for a moment that the A is in any way your fault. HE made the decision. Not you. I heard all that crap too. I don't love you, I never loved you, it's not you it's me, etc. Fog-babble. Neak and Wheels gave you great advice on the other page. If he's not making your marriage a priority, then he's still in fog-land. You need on your end to do an incredible Plan A. Make him remember why he married YOU. I don't recall from my reading, have you read Surviving An Affair? Best book ever. A must-read for the betrayed. I actually wrote notes in mine to help me assess where we were, and where we are. It was an eye-opener how similar these A's really are.

Keep fighting. ((((FA))))

ITA with Neak. If he goes on the trip, YOU GO. Or HE GOES when he gets back. This is a requirement for recovery that you should not back down from.

Right after WH booked the tickets I found out he had a one hour call with OW!! What the heck do I do now? Clearly it was a false recovery. I don't think I can stomach going. Yes I've read SAA. I think it's time to move to plan B and potentially divorce. He's a pathological liar.

I don't think he's a pathological liar. I think he's an addict. What he is doing is typical for an addicted wayward.

fa, only you can decide what you want to do about this. I would totally understand if you chose not to continue with this drama. FR is hell on most BS's.

I'll tell you what, though - there is no way I would go down without swinging. I'd be on that flight NOW. I wouldn't hand him off to some woman. Huh-uh. I'd take his cell phone away once I got on that plane, too. And when OW called him to find out where they're meeting, I'd discuss that with her to make sure it's convenient for ME.

It hasn't been a false recovery cause you haven't even started girl!

You are in plan A.
The plan for laying your wishes out to be shown (you want no OW in picture) and you show your best wife self and KNOW that he will lie and still talk with her. The only expectations you should have right now are he will still be cheating on you. You plan A anyway (cause you know plan B is around the corner....he doesn't know it and you don't tell him).
You still be best wife.
You show him what he will be missing WHEN you go to plan B. That is when boundaries are really shown. No more negotiation about them.

Your Taker is riled but tell your Taker this is part of YOUR plan. To sit back and watch your Giver put on the very best show which is in Taker's best interest.

You also plan on going on the trip and when you are on it......look good.....are fun (even if his addiction is still playing out while you are there). OW will be bummed he is with his wife in their little part of the world. Again, a good thing once you go to plan B and go dark. Hehe(giggle).

This is not your H but a WH who appears to partially be your H. Your H is hostage down deep in there and may someday appear but you have to study plan A and plan B and not let your ego jump the gun.

Lay back in plan A time and know you are part of the competition for your H for now and will abruptly pull out to let them at each other later.

Do not have expectations of recovery for now. Hope for it eventually but not expectations. If he looks like he is for recovery, assume he is trying to mislead you and enjoy plan A for the good times you can have with your H whether you recover or not.

Hope it makes sense to you.

Let me get this right?

You are going on a business trip
Your husband booked the tickets
Then right after he calls the OW and talks for an hour?

And you are asking what to do now??

Simple

DO NOT GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They just talked an hour on the phone what they are going to do while YOU are gone!!!

Cancel your trip.

Write your plan B letter.

Find an IM.

Tell your husband to leave.

And

STAY DARK!!!

I missed a page so I guess he booked for you and him?

fa,

Your H will not end the affair if he continues to travel. He also will not do so without exposure to key people on OW's side. I forget now whether she is married and whether she is connected to his company? Even with exposure (or if that is ineffective), the EA part of the affair might continue for some time unless you go to Plan B. Your H needs needs to get to the point where the affair is not worth the trouble it causes him, and you should not Plan A endlessly while waiting for that to happen. I think you have been in plan A for about one month anyway, haven't you?

Please go back and read my first post (or two) to you on this thread, and my post on the False Recovery thread that I linked. I never heard from you that you were following my advice, and I gave up posting to you when you did not seem to be listening.

Your H will have to stop travelling altogether. I asked you whether he could hire someone to do that part of his job, but I don't think you replied. You won't be able to go on for long getting childcare and going with him on every trip. Even while you do that, will he be at your side 24 hours per day? Do you want to behave like a jailer in your marriage?

Your H has to want to stop the affair. He has to want to be transparent with his phone etc. Plan B is the solution for you while waiting for the affair to die.

I totally get what SugarCane is saying.

Here is my take on the situation though.

If it were me (reading) I would plan on going. Even if it is the last hurrah of the marriage cause I would plan that I would go dark after at some point and want to show WH that the planet belongs to wonderful me.

I (reading) can travel anywhere on it. (By the way...OW would see that I am comfortable in her neck of the woods for future reference).

I would go on the trip and be a really awesome wife. I would have plans for things I was going to do on the trip. Day excursions for myself that H could join me in and all sorts of amazing things to do on it. He would be welcome to participate with me. I would know he was probably messing around when not in my site. He would probably be instant messaging/texting her like crazy BUT I would enjoy my trip with my husband like a top notch wife would/should/could. Again, with full knowledge he was still lying/cheating/etc. Plan Aing my booty off and proving to M Y S E L F that I was capable of being my best self given this situation.

I would do this while planning on my plan B (unbeknownst to him).

Really, if you go on the trip plan on it being sort of reverse honeymoon. You are there on a possible end of the marriage but you are aware of it and going to leave the best impression possible before you go dark and must create your future with or without him.

I hope this makes sense and I understand if you are not in the frame of mind to do this. It would take a lot of resolve and ability to not react to some potent triggers to lovebust.

Just wanted to add my input.

How you implement your marriagebuilders plans is unique to you.

I am taking Sapphire's advice. I am not going on the trip. I am moving to Plan B fairly soon - need to talk to an attorney because my WH won't move out without a separation agreement. He made that very clear when we almost separated last month. I haven't obviously said anything to WH. I have not confronted him with my information yet on his phone call. I just said the trip was too expensive.

So he's not going either right??

Cause I thought you were going on a trip a lone...if he's going on that trip bet your @$$ you should be there!! >.<

I would call his company and tell them to cancel his business trip. Can you do that?

If he will let you, go. Absolutely go. If you can go without his ok, go.

Perhaps I haven't made my situation clear enough. WH has his own company. He genuinely needs to be overseas one week every 4 to 6 weeks. He doesn't have anyone else he can send. He will not quit his job, because it's his and his alone and he stands to make a good living at it. Plus he loves it more than me! That's part of our marital issue beyond the affair. He loves his work and doesn't even consider it work and there's not a chance in hell he'll ever give it up. He's ruined his marriage as a result of this. Even if I went on this trip (which I am not going to) I'd have to babysit him 10 times a year and leave my kids with a sitter or family, take time off of my work, my life.

I feel like I have no choice other than to consult an attorney and get separated. I really don't think we have a chance anymore.

I agree, might as well start the divorce process, if he is willing to lose everything all for his work then by all means let him.

It does appear that you are in a lose/lose situation as far as saving your M goes, foreign. Sorry.

Good luck.

I get it.

It is sure one of the choices to make and yours alone to decide.

Okay, I haven't posted my saga in a while. I was about to start a thread in the divorce area. Since I last wrote, WH said he no longer wanted to work on the marriage so we started to discuss divorce. I got an attorney (though haven't paid him a dime) and WH paid a large retainer on another attorney. We discussed going to a mediator to discuss custody issues - and I even came up with a proposal that he said worked. He said he wouldn't move out of the house until we had a written separation agreement, so I made him move to the basement.

He went back to the country of the affair last week (the trip I was going to join him on) - and met with the OW a couple of times. He supposedly didn't sleep with her but didn't deny that there was some physical contact. He claims that their relationship is now over (once again!)

Today he asks to have lunch with me and says he was up all night because he can't imagine life without me! Yes - reality set in for Mr. cake-eater when I kicked him to the basement and started to get serious about custody issues.

I told him I'd think about it. Has anyone been in this situation before and successfully headed toward recovery? How do I respond?

From all the reading/studying I have done, given his career and travel, if he doesn't either rebuild a career minus the travel or you don't decide to give up yours to keep him company on trips....I don't see how it will work.

Hopefully others will give you more insight or input.

That is very true.

For the immediate future, I would advise you to do Plan A, followed by Plan B. (And the B is not for Basement.)

This is not likely to work for R if you freelance your own plan. Plan Me generally ends up as Plan D. You've been on here a while now. Have you read Dr. H's articles on surviving infidelity? Read SAA? Read some of the very good posts by members here on Plan A and Plan B?

If not, that's where I'd start. You need to be able to see where you're going, and how to get there. Your current course of action is likely to take you to a D, and by a much more painful route than necessary.

I'm trying not to freelance my own plan, but my attempt at Plan B is impossible if I can't force my WH out of the house. I have the best attorney in my state (he's a close friend of the family) and he's advised me that I can't do anything to get WH out of the house. He has to move out on his own. I was in Plan A for while - for four months until he told me he hired an attorney.

Once WH told me about his attorney, I could no longer sleep in the same bed with him. I thought I was heading to plan B/D, and ended up with plan B/Basement.

I have read SAA and understand what's supposed to happen, but unfortunately circumstances haven't allowed me to follow along exactly.