He just spent over an hour on the phone with her supposedly telling her they shouldn't contact each other anymore (I have calling card information so I know). He hasn't called me yet to tell me how it went. He has made it clear that he won't lie to me anymore. If he says it was a 5 minute conversation how do I respond? I can't handle the continued lying and deception. It's tearing me up inside.

If he says it was a 5 minute conversation and you know differently, say "You are withholding the truth from me. Try again." Repeat as needed.

This is why it is a better idea to just write a NC letter. It doesn't take an hour to say one paragraph.

I am scared to confront him regarding how long the call was because then he will ask me how I know - and then I'll forever lose that source of tracking his calls.

I mentioned that if we did move forward with rebuilding our marriage that I'd like to travel with him on his business trips. He was not very comfortable with that idea. Again, I sense it's another sign of false recovery.

The problem is not that the call took an hour and that he might lie about its length.

The problem is that there should never have been a phone call at all.

His speaking to her was another form of contact. It was the opposite of NC.

During that conversation she told him that she loved him and that he meant the world to her. How do you think he responded to that? Do you think he said "well I don't love you"?

Hardly. He said that he loved her but could no longer be with her and it was breaking his heart. Is that what you wanted him to say?

She accused him of using her. He had promised to leave you and be with her, and she had waited patiently and faithfully, and now that you have found out he is leaving her. She sounded angry and hurt.

He grovelled that he had not used her and that he DID love her but he could not leave his kids. He played the "kids" card because most women - even skanky hos - will love and respect a man who will put his children first. He convinced her that he is not a user. He calmed her anger.

And so on.

This scenario is exactly why Dr Harley says that the WS must never see or speak to the "lover" (i.e. skanky OW) again, not even to say goodbye. In fact, he writes

How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone.

fa, I have linked some of Dr Harley's Q&A columns here for you to read, but there is no evidence that you have read them or any of the materials here on this site. As I said in an earlier post, we give you very specific Harley advice and ask questions, and you seem to ignore our posts and simply update on the latest events.

I will post Dr Harley's instructions on how an affair should end. It is common sense, really to see why sending a letter (approved and posted by you) and NEVER, ever, speaking to OW is recommended.

This phone call has given your H the fix of the affair addiction that he was craving, and has topped up her love bank balance. He has been shown a picture of a woman dying from the love of him, and he is comparing that to the (rightfully) angry and demanding wife at home. Which do you think he feels love for after that phone call?

OW now understands that he is in a tough spot and will wait and work to win WH back to her. Far from ending the affair, the call has strengthened her resolve. She has learned that despite his promise to you to end the affair, he will put her feelings above yours and speak to her lovingly and at length. She knows that, since he did that today, she will be able to make him do this another day.

I know this script, fa. I have lived through it, many times. I thought you would want to avoid the horrors that other lived through during a false recovery. Do you want to learn from our mistakes? Did you ever read the false recovery thread that I bumped for you last week?

If your H will not write a NC letter and then block OW from his phone and email, then you have your answer about his sincerity. You must not accept the next best thing - a phone call - if he will not send a letter. If he is also showing reluctance to the idea of your travelling every time he goes abroad, then you have more evidence that he does not intend to end the affair.

Do not threaten to leave him. Listen to what he says and tell him your requirements for the marriage to continue. Do not tell him about this website in case he reads your thread, but tell him about NC for life, openness and honesty, and how you must both protect the marriage in future.

If he will not agree to your Harley-led advice, prepare, quietly, for Plan B, in which he leaves your home and you have no contact with your WH.

Here is Dr Harley's advice on the letter:

My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent.

Coping with Infidelity: The End (Part 2)

Okay, he can ask you how you knew. And you can just say "I know." Don't divulge how you know. It's none of his business how you know.

If he's not comfortable with you travelling with him, consider it a .

Whether you call it a false R or no R at all because the A never really ended, your actions need to be the same.

Plan A for 3-6 weeks, and go to Plan B.

All the information is there. Do you have any questions about how to implement it?

I cannot get him to write a no contact letter. He absolutely refuses. How do I do plan A without it? WH claims he wants to work on marriage but says he ended it with OW over the phone. I have been adamant about the no contact letter, but he's incredibly stubborn. What do I do next?

Plan A is all about putting your best wifely self forward even though the affair is continuing. You can't make him go no contact with her and write her the letter. You can tell him that is what you need him to do for you and the family. It is time for negotiation.

You plan A for now. Assume the affair is not over and do show your best self. The woman he originally fell in love with and committed to a marriage with

and

if he is not able to end his affair, for sure, without a doubt end it

you move to plan B

which is where you are no longer negotiating for the affair to end but make your conditions to a marriage with him clear and you remove yourself from the drama and take control of your own self and your own life indefinitely until and unless the affair ends and he is willing to rebuild the marriage.

You can only control your own actions. Your own self. You do the best with what you have control of. You. (Showing improvement where you were lacking, showing strength to move onward with or without him)

It is tough stuff but better than other alternatives.

Exactly!

Need advice on how to respond to email from WH. I had asked him to send a No Contact Letter to OW. Is this a positive sign or just an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for the affair?

"I don�t think we have the luxury of letting things linger too long. A day or two sometimes is good to give everyone a chance to breath and be more reflective before responding to an email like you sent yesterday. But, I am sure we both agree that issues need to be addressed.

In terms of your no contact email request, here�s my view. I already ended my relationship with OW. It�s done and I assure you �no contact� is in place. I will not end it twice, once is enough. I agree to what you requested that all contact with OW is cut off which means no communication through telephone calls, cards, e-mails, text messages, or Facebook. I did this not just for you, but also for me. I think you should view that in a positive way. I did it because we need to figure out if we have a future.

You will have to take my word for it, this is the best I can do.

I think it�s also time that you started to think more about our shared responsibility. This did not happen because you were such great and supportive friend who made me feel loved and worth more than two cents over many many years. I feel very put down, injured, abused and uncared and unloved for many years. If we will recover from this very severe situation of two very damaged and very injured people trying to see if they can each heal their wounds and find a way to love each other, then you will need to share in the responsibility on how we got to this place and how we might be able to move forward together.

I do care about you and will work on this together. We also have to give our maximum for DD and DS. We are both in great pain and neither one of us rang the alarm bell before severe damage was done and (you or I or perhaps both of us) may be beyond the point of being capable of recovering. We are both at fault for how we got here and we both can take the joint responsibility to go to counseling and try to see if there is still a path to repair, heal and rebuild our lives together. I�m in, if you�re in."

"Rather than take your word for it, I would feel safer if you sent a no contact letter to her that we write together and is mailed by me. That would make me feel safer and I would interpret it as a good will gesture from you. I need this kind of gesture from you right now as a demonstration of your sincerity. Since the affair is ended, as you say, you have nothing to lose - and everything to gain - by giving me this good will gesture. It would show me you are sincere and I desperately need to see that now in order to take you seriously.

And yes, I agree I was not the most loving wife and lacked in many areas. I am willing to change those things in our marriage as long as I am assured your affair is ended. I am willing to give you an opporunity to earn my forgiveness if you do certain things. Those things would be to assure me of safety and protection from your adultery and to commit to a program of recovery that ensures we restore the passion and romance in our marriage.

I want our marriage to be a happy, romantic, wonderful relationship and I am willing to work on that, if you are willing to protect me.

I love you, foreignaffair"

p.s. I don't think he is serious. His plan is to keep you online while carrying on his affair.

I would be very surprised if he responds positively to the above letter, but that's ok. If he still won't do it, assume the A is still going on, and carry on a great Plan A while getting ready for Plan B.

If he does respond positively, we can cross that bridge then. I think he will still make excuses and stall.

I like what Mel said, too.

okay - I'm writing back using the advice.

if he writes back with a new excuse to not send the letter, tell him:

"that is not very convincing. I need to see much more to convince me you are sincere. I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my trust, but it must be based on some real action."

Agree. At this point, H is not all that interested in ending the A permanently. Even if he verbally told OW not to contact him, in an hour long conversation, you can be certain that much more was said. The door is still open for the future and at the least, your H wants to leave it open. Or he is continuing the A, maybe after a few days of NC. In any case, as a survivor of a false recovery, I recommend you be firm about what your expectations are for ending the A and recovery. No contact should be number one on anyone's list. I am sorry. This is probably not something you want to hear, but it is reality.

AM

Just spent a week away with WH and the kids. We stayed with my MIL and her husband. She by the way spent the entire week pampering me with massage, manicure, pedicure, haircut, makeover, etc, but not once did she ask me how I was doing. I managed to stay pretty positive for the most part - trying my best to be as good as possible in Plan A. He still refuses to do the no contact letter. His idea of regaining my trust is that I have to believe that they aren't in contact. I do have access to his cell phone now and I think they were at least fully out of contact for the week.

I know it's only been a couple of weeks, but I'm still getting blamed for his affair. I feel no sense of shame on his part nor any real willingness to work hard. I think for him it's really all about the kids. He doesn't want to hurt them and/or have to share them with me. He wants to see them everyday and pretend that all is well in the world. He is intimate with me, but not affectionate - he'll hold my hand for a few seconds, but I can tell he's not into it. How long does the fog last?

Any advice on good conversations with WH who is not fully "present" and definitely not open about his feelings and or intentions?

Do not for a moment consider yourself in R. The A has gone deeper underground, and you need to be in a terrific Plan A.

Having a nice weekend at the IL's was a good start. My guess is that MIL is uncomfortable talking about things, so she did her best to show you support and comfort in ways that were easier for her than verbal communication.

Work on yourself, model your half of a good M, and know that in about 3-6 weeks you will almost certainly need to go into Plan B. Meeting his EN's the best you can is very important, and so is snooping. Each time you find something, let him know that you know, without revealing your sources. "I know you're in C with OW. Our M will not R while you continue to C her." "HOW DO YOU KNOW???" "I know. That's what's important."

Don't make threats, ultimatums, or anything of the sort. Just let him know that you know, and that you aren't ok with it. Action and consequences wait until Plan B.

So what do you think WH's top EN's are? Admiration is almost guaranteed to be one of them - be sure to notice and praise him for anything he does that is remotely nice or thoughtful, for you or the kids. SF is another likely one for the top 3, so even if you are not currently sleeping with him, make sure he knows that you find him attractive, and would like to meet this need in the future when you are R.

So read up on Plan A and get started.

What he is saying and doing are the acts of a WS. Even if he states that he has no contact his actions are contradiciting his words. He is still in an affair and is still acting like a WS no matter what he says.

When your WH shows absolutely that he wants to hold your hand and work hard at fixing the marriage then the fog babble stops. There is no time limit when this will happen, and that is why we have plan A and plan B. (I was really hesitant to take it as truth when my WW said that she wanted me and only me in her life.)

To skirt the fog babble you can always reverse fog babble, and to have meaningful converstations talk about the kids, buisness, and stuff you know he is interested in. Keep it light, there is no need to DJ, argue, or bring up the A in every conversation. There is no point in trying to converse about his feelings and intentions, I cant understand them fully but his feelings are the same as an addict, and his intension is to get a fix for his addiction. No point in talking to him about that.

It is really agonizing to not comment about his leaving you and the kids, but that is why plan A is temporary.