Yeah, I am always questioning my motives too. I think that is leftover from my X constantly questioning me. But I imagine we all try to be the 'better' parent in these situations. I mean, someone has to be the better parent when one of the parents has blown up the family. Plus it gives you (collective BS you) a productive place to focus during a time of unbearable grief.


Waves of emotions are not bad. As long as you can be honest with each other about your needs in a relationship.....

Happy for you.

wow. I love that you men on the boards are so candid about your motivations, thoughts and feelings. It gives me much insight to a man who thinks of others first(mainly his kids). I am baffled that my ws can walk away so easily from our five children(range in ages, but still) and yet he says how he doesn't want to hurt anyone. I am left picking up the crumbs and making a big ole cake out of it, frosting and all.
You are inspiring and I hope you and your lady friend end up exactly where you would like to!

Thanks for the kind words, MIP.

I'm far from perfect and have made more than my fair share of mistakes through all of this, but it's nice for the efforts to be appreciated.

Thing continue to go really well (and quickly) with the woman I'm seeing now. I talked about how we are spending every spare moment together, now we are really comfortable whether it's going out on the town or just hanging around the house. Last night we just had a simple dinner at her house, then we wrapped Christmas presents together for a couple of hours. Felt good and natural to just be together.

One of the reasons we're getting so close is because of undivided attention. We just enjoy being around each other, talking and really listening, showing lots of affection. She doesn't know about MB's, but totally gets the idea and calls it "being present". The TV is never on, no one is constantly on the cell phone, nor are we too wrapped up in domestic duties to pay attention to each other. Now I fully understand why the 15 hours of UA is so critical and I won't make that mistake again.

We've taken a big step in now she is introducing me to friends and family that are important to her. It's a huge step for her to come forward publicly as "seeing someone". I will also be bringing her to meet my family after Christmas.

I know that some of you, along with my family, are worried this is moving too fast and is just a rebound relationship. Believe me, both of us have had those same concerns. At the same time, it could also be the development of something really special, and I don't want to miss out on that, either.

So, I'm going to keep riding this train, take it day by day, hope it ends up at a good destination, but mindful that it may not in the end.

I for one am not worried about you going too fast, as long as you don't make any permanent (or semi permanent ) decisions while still being in the Infatuation Stage of the relationship. As I heard once in a seminar that I really liked, Infatuation is a great phase, and you should enjoy the heck out of it , but realize that it is just that - Infatuation. Infatuation will in time give rise to the Disillusionment Stage, followed by Negotiation, followed by Acceptance. If you feel good about things at the Acceptance Stage, then you are in good shape .

Enjoy the Infatuation .

AGG

So, shtoop, does that mean you haven't introduced her to the kids yet, like you were thinking of doing? Just curious. Since we're in parallel universes and everything...

Also, I could probably do more reading on this, but in the meantime, what kind of things do you look for to make sure you're not "rebounding?" I've read some threads were people simply ignored red flags and deal-breakers because they were so caught up in the euphoria of being with someone who appreciated them (since that hadn't happened in a long time, presumably). Is it more complicated than that?

I also have a question for AGG: With all this relationship chemical breakdown and stages of endorphins/neurotransmitters, isn't it also possible to simply stay "in love" with someone if you're meeting their needs and they are meeting yours? More like a Dr. Harley philosophy. IOW, why does there have to be a "disillusionment" stage? Can't that be avoided by consciously applying MB principles? I know, I'm a mess, lol; but I'm interested in what you might have to say about all that. Thanks.


Hey Schtoop, enjoy the buzz! She likes you, man. Nice feeling, huh?

Opt

As a newlywed still feeling very much in love, I'd love to hear this too. We spend a lot of time together, we are kind to each other, we LIKE each other, we have chemistry.

Why does it have to end?

Hey Opt, thanks for checking in.

I called it a "rebound" relationship because of the timing and the fact that it is my first since the divorce. Other than that, I don't think it feels like a "rebound" that's destined to fail.

It also doesn't feel like a rebound because of how disconnected I was with the WxW for years. I know we talk about the fogbabble and rewrite of history, but I am more and more seeing her side of things and just how empty our relationship had become. That's criticism I had of the mindset on the SAA board, where they totally discount the feelings that led up to an affair (and after) as having no validity at all. Sure, the WS is definitely viewing things through fog-colored glasses, but that doesn't mean they don't have valid points, perceptions, and most importantly, feelings and emotions.

My relationship was in a sad state, I was just too caught up in the idea of "family" to take notice.

As for meeting the kids, she has met them but only briefly. We had planned to it as a Sunday dinner or something similar, but it didn't play out that way. WxW has bought a new house in the same large development and it is close enough for my 10 year old to ride his bike to play with his friends next door. Well, I brought my lady over to fix dinner for her a couple of weeks ago and my son was playing with his friends in the street when I drove up. The cat was out of the bag at the point, so we were happy to see him and the introduction went well.

We will have to take it slow and easy with my 10 year old, though. We talked a little and he said how he doesn't want another mom or stepmom. I assured him that was not the case and that right now we just enjoy spending time together. He still seemed a little withdrawn a couple days later when the subject came up again. I was able to talk to him and come to the conclusion that seeing kind of destroyed the hope that his parents would get back together, which is a common reaction.

Moral of the story, we will go slowly and carefully on how to bring my lady more together with the kids. Just small bits at a time, mostly with fun activities, and keep it infrequent until they get more used to the idea. Certainly no playing "house" in the forseeable future.

I agree about the "disillusionment stage" sounding too strongly negative. I can buy a stage where you get much more familiar with the good and bad side of a partner which will lead to the "acceptance" stage, but not sure that should be characterized as "disillusionment".

Opt, I do believe that it's possible to stay in love forever, as long as you meet your partner's needs and vice versa. That is indeed the Harley philosophy.

What I was referring to was a little different; I was talking about the four stages of dating, not of marriage. It's been a while since I attended that seminar (almost 10 years!), but it made sense to me. The idea went like this:

Infatuation. You meet this new gal, and she just knocks your socks off. She is beautiful, funny, smart, she smiles at you, she wants to see you, wow. What's not to like. You love her laugh, you love how she throws her head back when you tell a good joke, you love how she puts her feet up on your lap when you cuddle up to watch TV. You get the idea. Your hormones go off the chart, you have met "The One". And as I said earlier, this is all fine, and you should enjoy this phase to the fullest, but realize that this is just the Infatuation Phase. Which is why you should not make any permanent decisions in this phase (I did in my first marriage, and look where it got me ).

Disillusionment So here you have known this new gal for a month or two (or three), and you are finding out new things about her. Some are great, some may not be. She is still beautiful and funny, but you find out she likes to sleep in till noon. Or her place is a bit of a stye. Or she doesn't like to go camping, which is one of your passions. All of a sudden, you start finding it annoying how she throws her head back when you tell a joke. Or you get tired of her stinky feet on your lap . Once in a while you even say to yourself, "Self, I wonder if this is the right gal for me? Maybe right behind door #2, there is someone who loves camping, will get up at dawn like I do, etc?". You get the idea. Again, all normal, now it's time to negotiate.

Negotiation This is not really negotiation as in tit for tat, this is more of an effort to figure out a way to make things work if you were to get married. Similar to Harley's POJA. So you may say to your gal "hey, how would going camping twice a year work for you?" It's simply an effort to work out whatever "red flags" or kinks there might be, and see if there is a way to make everyone happy.

Acceptance Once you get here, you have known your partner long enough to know where you are compatible, and where you may not be completely compatible, and you have worked through the concerns that are significant to both of you. You have found that although no one is perfect, you can accept this non-perfect person as they are, because either they have made efforts to to accommodate your needs (meeting your needs) or you have found a way to work around those areas where they won't meet your needs for whatever reason. Once you have reached this acceptance, and you still are in love with this gal, well then you are in a good place to make more permanent decisions about your future.

This is just my recollection of how the concepts worked, but it made sense to me, and still does. The point is that in Infatuation phase, it's easy to say that you are in love like you never have been before, and love will conquer all. But it does not. So it's important to give things some time, to let the hormones settle down, to get to know the person beyond the initial facade... And then see how you feel.

Hope this helps.

AGG

I don't quite get that, schtoop. It seems like you tried to talk past his concern - he doesn't want a stepmom, and you "assured" him that this is not the case, but is that true? You are not considering the possibility of getting married again?


I think we posted right past each other, so maybe what I said in my post above helps. I know the term Disillusionment sounds strong (doesn't help that is so close to "Dissolution"), but does not mean that you suddenly start seeing this new person as the devil incarnate. Just that you suddenly realize that they are only human, and are not perfect, and may even have some surprises for you that you did not expect. That's all. Just something to keep an eye out for.

I know that in my post divorce dating, I have met many women with whom this pattern repeated by the book. Each time the "disillusionment" was different, in many cases things that I have never dealt with before (the examples above were all real from my experiences, and in addition I met women who had serious financial issues, mental illness, serious family issues, etc). In most cases I tried to negotiate my way through the issues, only to find in the end that I couldn't. That all changed in my last relationship, which is why we are now married . But that is not to say that my wife and I did not have "disillusionment" moments here and there, we did. We were just mature enough to discuss them, process them, and accept or work around them until we were both happy.

AGG

Same with me AGG. I tried everything, but all she said was NO! NO! and NO! Marriage counseling - NO! Talk to our pastor - NO!

Interestingly, I later found out they had talked to the OM's pastor who encourged them in the affair, since he believed god was blessing them. It seems that the pastor had once had an affair but broke it off, and later regretted breaking it off! And this is the guy she was taking advice from. Oh well, water under the bridge.

They always say that "I never meant to hurt you (or the kids)". My reply is simple: You chose to have the affair, you knew it would hurt the kids and me, you did it anyway.

AGG put the phases into a very good summary.

I finally found someone who has everything i was looking for and the infatuation stage hit the max. I went a bit too far in a few emails, no "I love you" as I knew that was not true yet, and she was not happy on the third date, left me a bit strangely, and I just knew that I had to get a hold my emotions, so i just told her that I met her too soon, which was very true. A couple of kisses, no resistance from her, just that i was getting too serious to fast with words, not with actions.

tried to make another date, she agreed, but i found some good reasons to avoid it, and just told her i was making some improvements. . . and radio silence for a month. ..

had a couple of other dates, didn't work out past the first encounter, sent a christmas email to the infatuated one, and I have a much better handle on myself, and she responded with some flirtation, which is good, as the initial two dates did go well, and we have alot of potential together. . . just the timing is all off, very badly, and that has to be taken into account to NOT force the relationship.

My learning point is that understanding your ideal choice is very, very key to your own success, and that can only be done through lots of dating interactions, and lots of reflection and knowing what type of person you really want, and never, ever accept the first one after divorce, never, ever. . . because your frame of reference is so warped that making an intelligent decision is practically IMPOSSIBLE. self control is very, very important to be able to make early mistakes and not kill all potential.

There is a possibility that I will be moving across country for work, and that can kill many people who are set in their ways. Ms Infatuation is the only person i have met so far who can actually deal with that very easily if she chooses, but getting past that infatuation stage is a beeyitch, i couldn't sleep for more than 5 hours a night for several months. . . and even now, there is no future guarantee of anything successful, just a potential, nothing more.

just saying, put re-marriage out of your mind for now, and just have fun meeting new people. . . meet as many people as you can WITHOUT sex, without commitment, and platonically as possible. BE HONEST with the other people, and you will come out the better person. Just because you now have relationship success knowledge doesn't mean every relationship will be a success. .

are you laughing AGG? you should be, it a huge bee-itch I am fighting the infactuation urge big time, and its only been 3 dates in the first month and its now 3 months later. . . am tempted to set up a January date with much more control, which means more fun. . .

wiftty

Hey AGG, thanks from Opt for the breakdown of the stages outlined above. I didn't take the time to say that makes sense even though I was kinda hoping the infatuation stage could just go on indefinitely, lol.

Soooooo, it's been about a week. What's up Schtoop?!

Happy New Year. I'll probably be texting the woman I'm sweet on at midnight since I have my kids through Sunday. That's okay, she gets it.

Beats last New Years Eve, though; wxw kissing gosh-knows-who 3 thousand miles away.

Opt

Wishing you all well in your New Year's dates...but somehow I'm kind of glad I'm not into all that right now, the breather feels good. I'll probably be home in my jammies enjoying a good cup of coffee, looking out the window at all the snow I already shoveled, a fire crackling in the fireplace, with my cute dog sitting next to me...I won't even ask you all what that says about me! LOL To all of us, a Happy New Year, may next year be better than the last and better than the one before that!

Personally I think 'all that' says a lot of good things about you KayC, not the least of which is that you seem to be a self-sufficient, confident woman who is satisfied in her own accomplishments. I hope you had a wonderful evening, the last night of 2010 and I'm certain 2011 will be better for you and with any luck for the rest of us as well!

Opt

Hey my friends, and happy New Year!

I have to admit that I am way past the stage of taking WIFTT's advice. The stages of a relationship make sense, but I have definitely violated the "never, ever with the first one" rule and I'm going to ride it out for good or for bad.

The whole last two weeks have been a whirlwind and kind of a coming out party. It started with my lady taking me as a date to a dinner party that was attended by many influential members of her congretation. Then it was for drinks at another dear friends house, another night cooking dinner for her, a good friend, and her father that had just arrived in town. Meeting her side of the fence culminated in Christmas Eve get together that I helped with the hosting at her house that included a few friends and her close family (her three children are grown).

Christmas morning I went to WxW's house for the present opening. I had a good selection of nice presents for the boys, but of course mine were outclassed by the excess the WxW bestowes on them every year. From there it was my turn with the kids for the next 10 days.

Then it was my turn, I brought my lady for an overnight visit to my mom's house where my whole family gathers for the holidays.

Everyone on both sides has been supportive for the most part, but it was kind of intense doing so many introductions to so many important people in such a short time.

My brother (also divorced) was the most cautious, and he warned me about moving too fast. He also cited himself as an example stating that he's been seeing a girl for 9 months and hasn't yet introduced her to his children or family. That may be fine for where he's at, but it is also a little devaluing to a partner to keep them quarantined from the rest of your world so long.

We are still strong in the "infatuation stage", but with meeting the families and my children a good dose of reality has come into the relationship. I don't mean "reality" in a negative connotation, just a clearer view of our current circumstances and what we want out of a long-term partner. There are some challenges to be sure, but nothing yet that screams this will never work. We are both fully aware that there's a chance that we can't successfully mesh, but that doesn't mean we are not even going to try, either.

One last awkward moment to pass along, my lady was at my house last evening having dinner with me and the boys. Guess who drops by to drop off some clothes and school stuff? That's right, WxW. I invited her in and there was a brief intoduction. WxW hung around a little too long telling me what needs to be done and talking with the boys, but everyone was cordial and respectful. One final thought, WxW did come by unannounced and my lady's car was in the driveway, so the awkward moment could have been avoided and she just call me later. What is the message here?

It sounds like she wanted to assert herself into the situation (kind of like a male dog peeing on his territory). Not that it matters...she's out and time she realizes it!

It sounds like you had a wonderful holiday season though!

I've heard it said that it upsets waywards when they learn the ones they left are rebuilding their lives -- without them. My guess is that they are so full of themselves that they expect their betrayed spouses to spiral down into depression, loss, and despair. Some do, I fear, but some don't.

Those that don't just become burrs under the saddle of the waywards who can't believe the loss of their presence can be tolerated, managed and even (gasp!) enjoyed!

To me it matters not a hoot what was going through the ex's feeble mind during this episode. Not a hoot. What I believe is more important is how your new GF felt about it and is she reassured that there is no issue there. My guess is you have spoken with her about it (MB: intimate conversation, I believe), but you didn't mention it so I bring it up.

I hear this and get it also. I also think AGG's assertion was pertinent: "don't make any long term plans," based on the infatuation stage. I suppose that can mean different things to different people, but I suspect you haven't proposed yet. And from her side of things it doesn't sound like she's measuring for furniture or naming children yet, so you're probably okay.

Of course I have no real advice but it's great to hear from you Schtoop. I'm very glad you're enjoying life and have some good excitement.

Opt

Great insight, Opt. You are completely correct that my concern was how my GF felt about the whole encounter, not the WxW. We did talk about it and everything was cool. She asked me if I still had any attraction or feelings for the WxW and I assured her that I did not. In fact, I really haven't been physically attracted to WxW for years. Together we were able to assess that I do still have a need for WxW's approval which I am working to shed. It's just that I spent my entire married life working to please her and win her approval (praise or admiration is my top EN, often neglected) and old ways of relating to people are hard to change.

No worries on the long-term plans. We have both been married for a long time and aren't ready to jump back into it. Just taking it day-by-day right now.

The biggest obstacle right now is my time with the children. In fact, her "checklist" for a potential partner included "no young children". She doesn't resent my time with the boys and away from her, but she is sometimes disappointed when I am not available and has made it clear that she doesn't want to "compete" with them for my time and attention. So our mantra and what we will strive for is for her and the boys to "complement, not compete". In other words, find a good balance between alone adult time for her and I, time and activities we can all enjoy together, and time for just me and the boys. What she doesn't want (and I don't blame her) is to be relegated to a clear second priority.

Anyway, if it doesn't work out we both know the reason will be that she needs more of me than I am able to give. Meanwhile, we can take it day-by-day and see if we can't find that elusive balance.