After three months of being divorced, I figured it was enough mouring time and I really would enjoy a woman's company again. I am in no way looking for "the one" or a serious relationship at this point, but just to meet some people and see where things might go.

I have to confess that I have entered the sordid world of online dating. I was very reluctant, but it is a much better alternative than bars and I was going to go a llllloooonnng time before meeting someone the conventional way, especially as shy as I am.

All I can say is WoW! It seems if you have all your teeth, most of your hair, minimal gut, and can string a few coherent sentences together, then you are a much sought after commodity.

Last weekend I actually scheduled two dates (it was xWW's weekend with the boys) on back to back nights. First lesson learned, probably bit off a little more than I could chew with the multiple dates. Should have gone a little slower considering I haven't been on a "date" in over 20 years. I did have whirlwind of emotions going on, everything from nervous energy to actually be doing this, to a nagging of guilt in the back of my consciousness. But, I don't think the guilt had anything to do with the xWW, it was that so much of my energy has been focused on the boys that it kind of felt like I was letting them down by doing something for myself.

Two in two nights was definitely too much, especially when I was up until 2:00 AM both nights.

The first date was intriguing, the woman was a former pastor at the church I go to and now has her own small church across town. She was also recently divorced. Talk about intimidating, how was I going to talk with someone like that? What if the subject turned to spirituality?

The second was with a very attractive lady I met online that has been divorced for 20 or so years. I felt good about going out with her because she was one of the most attractive women I saw on the site and she must get a lot of attention.

Guess which one went the best?

That's right, date number 1. Turns out the she is a very cool lady and likes living life just like anyone else, not to mention quite attractive. She's very into blues and likes to go out see local bands. We have kind of connected (don't want to go too fast there) and have seen each other a couple of time since for lunch. We have another date planned for tomorrow night that we are both excited about. Turns out that infidelity wasn't involved in her split up after all. Her children are all grown and out of the house, and she just realized how far apart she had become from her husband. Like many of us, their marriage had become the opposite of marriage builders, virtually no RC, no POJA on major decisions, little affection, etc. Hearing her view of things was very helpful in reinforcing what I already knew about where my own marriage went wrong. The way she painted her husband was almost like looking in a mirror. Good thing I know a better way now.

I know it can be a date-killer to talk too much about the ex's and your divorce, and we didn't, but it is helpful to know where the person is coming from in that regard.

The second woman was nice enough, she was attractive and quite talkative. But, most of the conversation seemed kind of empty compared to the first date. Maybe she really wasn't on a level playing field and things would have been different if I had seen her first, but I didn't sense any sparks. She also seems to date a lot, which isn't necessarily bad, but might not be for me.

This right here is why I became a believer in dating casually rather than looking for a "relationship" right away. When you meet several people, you can make the kinds of comparisons that you made above, and that is very healthy. If you hadn't met the first lady, you might have "settled" for the conversation level you had with the second, especially given how attractive she was. By having had several dates, you were able to trade the importance to you of looks vs. conversation. And in future dates you'll be able to do the same for other characteristics, until you finally meet the one who has the best balance of what you want .

Good work schtoop!

AGG

Enjoy yourself and maybe throw in a date with someone else just to slow things down and keep perspective.

Schtoop! Awesome to see you had a positive entry into the dating world. For both of us it's totally not where we wanted to be at this stage in our lives, and you probably expected it about as much as I did, say, a mere 24 months ago. But here we are, and making the best of it. This might not sound right, but after what we've been through with the "fairer" gender, a little redemption doesn't seem too out of place.

Yeah, baby, lol. I bet it's been awhile since you were up past curfew. Time flies...

I told you she wasn't out of your league!

Right. But you were sharing mutually and it doesn't seem like it dominated the night. I think you did it just right. She probably learned a lot about you by hearing about your situation.



Agree with AGG here. For me I was lucky Halloween Heartbreaker flew away on her own b/c she pretty much wrong for me, but that's not what the dopamine was telling me!


I have a second date coming up tomorrow. I met her online, which I agree is bizarre, but what the hay, right? Looking forward to it. See you at my "house."

Opt

Whoa! You guys are becoming dating machines! I wish I knew how you did it.

I'm more like KayC at this point -- part of me would love to spend some time in the company of a charming, attractive lady, but the other part just puts on the brakes and says "no...."

Fred, you'll have to move to Oregon.

Actually, I think it's great they're getting the dates in. I'm told that's the way to do it, I just don't have the time or inclination to do so. I bought a couple of sets of dating and relationship CD's and e-book from Christian Carter over a year ago before I met Jim, and learned a lot from it. They say it's a numbers thing, you have to go into the dating almost like a full time job. Honestly, I'm just not that interested in dating. I'd rather God just pick out the right one and drop him in front of me and say, "this is him", but I guess that's not likely to happen. Biggest mistake I made last time was going into the relationship too fast and hard. I let him lead me and I should have stuck to my guns. Live and learn! Ahh it was a whirlwind romance (at first) but then look where it got me. Fun while it lasted but definitely NOT worth the heartbreak. What a year! You'd think I'd get better at this!

I did see Jim last night and was very proud of myself for how far I've come and how I handled it (posted in my Life Sucks thread). So maybe I'm getting better at survival if nothing else!

Alright, for your amusement here's another one of my adventures in online dating.

The town I grew up in is just a couple hours away, so I was perusing some of the profiles over there. There was this one woman who looked vaguely familiar, but I couldn't put my finger on it. Anyway, her profile was kind of funny, but she was so full of herself that I just had to laugh. So, I sent her a sarcastic note.

Ends up she recognized me. Turns out she was a girl my brother dated seriously for a couple of years a long time ago. Talk about awkward!

Since then we've chatted quite a bit and she's really a cool woman. So at least I've made another friend. I'm pretty sure she would be interested in more, but that may be a little too weird for me.

Tell me about it! Definitely wasn't anticipating the drain on my spare time. (Duh?)
I still have projects to finish. After tonight's scheduled dinner/show I might drop it back a few notches. It's stressful too (in a good way, but still...). Maybe pick it back up after the holidays or something.

Opt

Yeah, that worked out real good. I drove 40 minutes to be with her for a couple of hours last night. What can I say? I can't get enough of someone who digs everything about me.
opt

Lol, update your thread buddy, the peanut gallery is curious how all this is going for you!

Travis

I know! The high-jacker is in. Sorry Schtoop, I meant to say "I hope you're doing better at this than I am."
I'll get back to my thread in a bit; off to work and then pool tonight.
...Trying to stay focused.

Opt

There you go again, Opt, with the "parallel universe" thing.

Glad things are going well with your new interest, it does indeed feel great for someone to really dig you.

Things are going very well with lady I am seeing. She's really a cool woman and we can talk and feel free and easy around each other. Not to mention major sparks.

Another thing that was noted by Chrisner, if you remember him, is that our newfound knowledge of MB principles can be a powerful thing. In talking with my lady friend about what happened with our marriages, I can easily point out how EN's weren't being met (in both cases) and how such things as affection, undivided attention, RC, and such are vital to a marriage. She is most impressed with my awareness now and desire to be different (and she is a trained counselor). Use the knowledge of MB principles with utmost care, or you will have all kinds of women falling over themselves for you, LOL.

Having her over for a quiet dinner tonight at my house.

One thing to keep in mind as we forge these new relationships, and I'll give an analogy my MC gave us. Forming a new relationship versus rebuilding an old one is like moving into a house. With the new relationship, you're moving into a new, clean house and you can arrange everthing as you like, or reveal as only as much of yourself as you move in and get comfortable. Rebuilding an old one is like moving into a house from "Horders". It's loaded with tons of old crap that has to be removed or dealt with before you get comfortable.

I am liking the "feel" of the new house, though.

Just keep in mind that the "new house" may be full of crap too, you just haven't found it yet because everybody is on their best behavior in a new relationship .

AGG

Very good analogy, AGG.

Yeah, you might open their wardrobe and have all sorts of things fly out at you. You could get buried in them if you don't do a thorough inspection.

I like the house analogy too. Although I think the MB philosophy might say you could theoretically move into a new house with the original spouse, leaving all the old baggage and hoarded stuff behind. Required: commitment to identifying and meeting each others needs, and restoring and maintaining the "in love" feelings. I was never big on psychoanalytic theory and cycling through old issues~ I say move on and adjust behaviors, life's too short for psychoanalysys. Anyway, My wxw wanted to move without me.
I hope you had a nice dinner last night schtoop.
Opt

I think there are difference between men and women in general. Guys, due to their DNA, prefer something new, get more excited about the prospective 'partners' and want to pursue more eagerly. Whereas women tend to 'protect' what they have or try to 'fix' things, especially when they have children.

Good point, I never thought of it that way but you may be on to something there!

Women may not be good at fixing cars (ok, that's a stereo type and I apologize for those who are quite handy in this arena), and if their shoes get old, they prefer just buying the new pairs, however when it comes to relationships, I cannot help but to notice the difference..., that women try to 'fix' or 'hang on' to broken relationships hoping that things could be different, while men won't like to fix them and just get the new one. I certainly fit this criteria and know many others who do too.....

You know, I'm reading this to mean that guys are genetically wired to bail on their spouse and family when things get bad.... I'm hoping that's not what you meant. Society plays a large role in accepted behavior including promoting the abandonment of families and relationships as long as you "pay" for it. The genetic argument to me implies a lack of choice or control that I find disturbing and a bit insulting. Hopefully I just misunderstood.

Travis

I may not be the norm, but I was the one who tried to hold our marriage and family together, while my ex was all gung-ho on bailing and pursuing her married OM.

AGG

I didn't mean to insult any of those men out there who are committed and continue to try hard to make marriages work. It was a generalization, and I understand that there are many women who cheat too. As you pointed out, I know many guys who feel 'justified' because they provide - speaking of Tiger Woods who admitted that while he knew that what he was doing was wrong he felt that a normal rule did not apply to him since he was so 'special'. Maybe not to that extent, but a lot of that is stemming from the environment, that is true. I guess I was just making a very broad generalization based on my personal experience.

Yup, I'm not normal either I guess.
Milkshake, I know you weren't trying to offend. No worries.

Opt

Very interesting debate, Milkshake, and no offense taken.

However, I don't think the stats back up you ascertion. Did you know that 75% of divorces in this country are filed by women? That's right, a three to one difference.

I can't find it, but there's a good article that's been posted here about the new propensity for "walk away mom's". I wish someone could find it.

On happier news, things are progressing quickly with the woman I've been seeing and are quickly approaching the "hot and heavy" level, lol. She's a very outgoing, vivacious, and beautiful woman and has scores of suiters hounding after her. Can't figure out how I happened to be the one to capture her fancy?

I made her a special dinner at my house two nights ago, then last night we had the leftovers at her's. We had planned to go out and see a local band, but we were both kind of tired and just stayed in for conversation and one-on-one time.

I think it's good that I have the boys half the time right now, it gives us a little breaks and some time apart to gain perspective. But, it is nice to have someone "really digging you" again.

Nice man, glad you found someone to be happy with!

Travis

Well, it's no mystery to us around here, sh2p, you're a great guy. She's lucky to have your attention as I'm sure you feel lucky to have hers.

Enjoy it.

Opt

This sounds great schtoop! Is this the pastor lady you mentioned earlier? As always, my advice would be "have fun but go slow", but you already know that .

AGG

tc, also a good point. I guess to every generalization there's always exceptions. I hope my experience is not the norm...for everyone else's sake. I know this much, everyone is different...my problem is in recognizing which is which. I look at past behavior as a predictor but often that's fooled me as well.

Ditto.

As to the 75% of divorces are filed by women...

It's not who files that's the indicator of who bailed.

In my case, my ex was living with another woman...the second time he did that, and stuck me with all his bills, he quit his job, drew thousands of dollars out of the bank and went into hiding with his young lady...so I filed for divorce. Later he said, "You didn't have to go and file for divorce!"

I didn't?

here is the issue, what does go slow mean?

ugh! everyone's go slow is different. . how slow is slow and how fast is too fast?

wiftty

Wiftty,

Good to see you here . My definition of slow is simple - keep your level of involvement in line with your knowledge of the person. Some random examples - don't make plans for next year with them on the second or third date, don't have sex with them if you don't yet know if you are exclusive, don't meet the kids until you feel you have a relationship and not just a few dates, don't talk about moving to their town until you have spent enough time with them to feel that your relationship will last, etc.

AGG

AGG,

that part is pretty obvious, a day or ski trip plan is a great idea for next year, that' nothing serious and can go by myself if she doesn't go. its only 2-3 hour drive to slopes.

ah, sex is the least of my issues, i have a hard time figuring out do yu kiss them when you part after a great date? that to me is the hardest.

We went to a patriots game, and had dumped my car in a public parking lot, after the game she dropped me off at my car, kissed me as quickly as possible, ran to her car and said "goodbye" and drove off.

umm, I didn't take that one well. no thank you and running off??

not sure what to think there. . .

I guess I'm old school...I still don't kiss on the first date...maybe fourth? If they can't wait that long and be respectful, they can keep on trucking! Maybe it's just how I was raised...

I'm sorry she ran off so fast that she forgot her manners...but think of it this way, it saved you another date. You'll find a good one yet, remember, it's about numbers...

The first date, I kissed her cheek at departure.
The second date, I pecked her lips at the restaraunt when I saw her and when I left, with a hug.

this was the third date. . .

I thought it was weird. however, she did have dark parking lot fright on our first date, so I chalked it up to that. We are still speaking, and I blew her off on the fourth date, not intentionally.

I do owe her a fourth date, though I am not sure how its going to go. We have spoken since, and she is friendly, so all is not lost.

I just can't figure her out right away. .

wiftty

Four Kacey!? Worth the wait, I'm sure. Lol
I'll wait that long if I'm having a fun time with someone and things are going in the right direction. The first kiss never comes out of the blue anyway, right?

Wiffty (love the name btw). Mens Health had a blurb about where your hands are during the first kiss. No particular suggestions, but you need to think about it because she'll definitely notice.
Of course I have minimal practical experience, just siting wat I've read.

Care to weigh in Schtoop? (We've jacked your thread again, lol)
Opt

I must be odd...my boyfriend didn't kiss me until at least the fifth or sixth date...

Been giving this a lot of thought.

First, Fourth, Seventh, Tenth. I don't think it's a question of being odd, or normal, or unusual, or right or wrong. Just a matter of what you're comfortable with and what two people are interested in getting out of a dating experience.

That's my perspective based on highly limited experience.

Opt

Personally, I think you want to feel he's somewhat special before kissing...I wouldn't want to kiss just anyone and everyone...and I doubt he'd want to kiss someone who had!
As to where the hands are, gosh, I never analyzed it! I remember my late husband's first kiss, he kind of pulled me towards him, I liked that, it felt kind of like a protective stance, I always felt that with him, like it was the best place in the world to be! Maybe where the hands are DO matter! I wouldn't get nervous worrying about it though, the most important thing is that you're in the moment, right there with that person, and you are both comfortable and enjoying it. It has to be a mutual want-to, and I think the vibes definitely come from the other person so you know it.

Hey all, thought I would weigh in on my own thread, haven't posted in a while (too busy).

On the subject of when to kiss, I doubt that I would make it to a fourth date without having some level of intimate kissing. I would interpret four dates without a kiss as indicating not much physical attraction and a relationship that was bound to end up in the "friends" zone. But, that's just me.

I'm still seeing the first woman I went out with and we've really hit it off. Seems like we are spending every spare moment together when I don't have the kids. Things are progressing quickly and we are both well aware of it, but neither of us is sure that we really want to slow it down, either.

We're kind of at the place where we know the situation, know there's a possibility that it could fall apart at some point, but we don't want to be overly cautious or afraid to take a chance.

I still have some weird feelings of guilt from time to time. The thing is that all through my XWW's affair and subsequent divorce, my sole focus was on the children and protecting my abilily to look after and provide for them. So now I have someone else to consider and I don't want that to ever take away from my responsibilities to the children. In reality it doesn't have to take anything away and can make all of our lives richer, but that self-doubt creeps in from time to time.

And, not to sound to high and mighty, I also have to look at my motivation for what I do for the boys. Of course their best interest is always my goal, but was I trying to be superdad just to show up their mother? I can't honestly say that wasn't part of it.

Anyway, enjoying the ride right now and trying my best to keep everything in balance. Not always easy to do when you're riding a wave of emotions.

Yeah, I am always questioning my motives too. I think that is leftover from my X constantly questioning me. But I imagine we all try to be the 'better' parent in these situations. I mean, someone has to be the better parent when one of the parents has blown up the family. Plus it gives you (collective BS you) a productive place to focus during a time of unbearable grief.


Waves of emotions are not bad. As long as you can be honest with each other about your needs in a relationship.....

Happy for you.

wow. I love that you men on the boards are so candid about your motivations, thoughts and feelings. It gives me much insight to a man who thinks of others first(mainly his kids). I am baffled that my ws can walk away so easily from our five children(range in ages, but still) and yet he says how he doesn't want to hurt anyone. I am left picking up the crumbs and making a big ole cake out of it, frosting and all.
You are inspiring and I hope you and your lady friend end up exactly where you would like to!

Thanks for the kind words, MIP.

I'm far from perfect and have made more than my fair share of mistakes through all of this, but it's nice for the efforts to be appreciated.

Thing continue to go really well (and quickly) with the woman I'm seeing now. I talked about how we are spending every spare moment together, now we are really comfortable whether it's going out on the town or just hanging around the house. Last night we just had a simple dinner at her house, then we wrapped Christmas presents together for a couple of hours. Felt good and natural to just be together.

One of the reasons we're getting so close is because of undivided attention. We just enjoy being around each other, talking and really listening, showing lots of affection. She doesn't know about MB's, but totally gets the idea and calls it "being present". The TV is never on, no one is constantly on the cell phone, nor are we too wrapped up in domestic duties to pay attention to each other. Now I fully understand why the 15 hours of UA is so critical and I won't make that mistake again.

We've taken a big step in now she is introducing me to friends and family that are important to her. It's a huge step for her to come forward publicly as "seeing someone". I will also be bringing her to meet my family after Christmas.

I know that some of you, along with my family, are worried this is moving too fast and is just a rebound relationship. Believe me, both of us have had those same concerns. At the same time, it could also be the development of something really special, and I don't want to miss out on that, either.

So, I'm going to keep riding this train, take it day by day, hope it ends up at a good destination, but mindful that it may not in the end.

I for one am not worried about you going too fast, as long as you don't make any permanent (or semi permanent ) decisions while still being in the Infatuation Stage of the relationship. As I heard once in a seminar that I really liked, Infatuation is a great phase, and you should enjoy the heck out of it , but realize that it is just that - Infatuation. Infatuation will in time give rise to the Disillusionment Stage, followed by Negotiation, followed by Acceptance. If you feel good about things at the Acceptance Stage, then you are in good shape .

Enjoy the Infatuation .

AGG

So, shtoop, does that mean you haven't introduced her to the kids yet, like you were thinking of doing? Just curious. Since we're in parallel universes and everything...

Also, I could probably do more reading on this, but in the meantime, what kind of things do you look for to make sure you're not "rebounding?" I've read some threads were people simply ignored red flags and deal-breakers because they were so caught up in the euphoria of being with someone who appreciated them (since that hadn't happened in a long time, presumably). Is it more complicated than that?

I also have a question for AGG: With all this relationship chemical breakdown and stages of endorphins/neurotransmitters, isn't it also possible to simply stay "in love" with someone if you're meeting their needs and they are meeting yours? More like a Dr. Harley philosophy. IOW, why does there have to be a "disillusionment" stage? Can't that be avoided by consciously applying MB principles? I know, I'm a mess, lol; but I'm interested in what you might have to say about all that. Thanks.


Hey Schtoop, enjoy the buzz! She likes you, man. Nice feeling, huh?

Opt

As a newlywed still feeling very much in love, I'd love to hear this too. We spend a lot of time together, we are kind to each other, we LIKE each other, we have chemistry.

Why does it have to end?

Hey Opt, thanks for checking in.

I called it a "rebound" relationship because of the timing and the fact that it is my first since the divorce. Other than that, I don't think it feels like a "rebound" that's destined to fail.

It also doesn't feel like a rebound because of how disconnected I was with the WxW for years. I know we talk about the fogbabble and rewrite of history, but I am more and more seeing her side of things and just how empty our relationship had become. That's criticism I had of the mindset on the SAA board, where they totally discount the feelings that led up to an affair (and after) as having no validity at all. Sure, the WS is definitely viewing things through fog-colored glasses, but that doesn't mean they don't have valid points, perceptions, and most importantly, feelings and emotions.

My relationship was in a sad state, I was just too caught up in the idea of "family" to take notice.

As for meeting the kids, she has met them but only briefly. We had planned to it as a Sunday dinner or something similar, but it didn't play out that way. WxW has bought a new house in the same large development and it is close enough for my 10 year old to ride his bike to play with his friends next door. Well, I brought my lady over to fix dinner for her a couple of weeks ago and my son was playing with his friends in the street when I drove up. The cat was out of the bag at the point, so we were happy to see him and the introduction went well.

We will have to take it slow and easy with my 10 year old, though. We talked a little and he said how he doesn't want another mom or stepmom. I assured him that was not the case and that right now we just enjoy spending time together. He still seemed a little withdrawn a couple days later when the subject came up again. I was able to talk to him and come to the conclusion that seeing kind of destroyed the hope that his parents would get back together, which is a common reaction.

Moral of the story, we will go slowly and carefully on how to bring my lady more together with the kids. Just small bits at a time, mostly with fun activities, and keep it infrequent until they get more used to the idea. Certainly no playing "house" in the forseeable future.

I agree about the "disillusionment stage" sounding too strongly negative. I can buy a stage where you get much more familiar with the good and bad side of a partner which will lead to the "acceptance" stage, but not sure that should be characterized as "disillusionment".

Opt, I do believe that it's possible to stay in love forever, as long as you meet your partner's needs and vice versa. That is indeed the Harley philosophy.

What I was referring to was a little different; I was talking about the four stages of dating, not of marriage. It's been a while since I attended that seminar (almost 10 years!), but it made sense to me. The idea went like this:

Infatuation. You meet this new gal, and she just knocks your socks off. She is beautiful, funny, smart, she smiles at you, she wants to see you, wow. What's not to like. You love her laugh, you love how she throws her head back when you tell a good joke, you love how she puts her feet up on your lap when you cuddle up to watch TV. You get the idea. Your hormones go off the chart, you have met "The One". And as I said earlier, this is all fine, and you should enjoy this phase to the fullest, but realize that this is just the Infatuation Phase. Which is why you should not make any permanent decisions in this phase (I did in my first marriage, and look where it got me ).

Disillusionment So here you have known this new gal for a month or two (or three), and you are finding out new things about her. Some are great, some may not be. She is still beautiful and funny, but you find out she likes to sleep in till noon. Or her place is a bit of a stye. Or she doesn't like to go camping, which is one of your passions. All of a sudden, you start finding it annoying how she throws her head back when you tell a joke. Or you get tired of her stinky feet on your lap . Once in a while you even say to yourself, "Self, I wonder if this is the right gal for me? Maybe right behind door #2, there is someone who loves camping, will get up at dawn like I do, etc?". You get the idea. Again, all normal, now it's time to negotiate.

Negotiation This is not really negotiation as in tit for tat, this is more of an effort to figure out a way to make things work if you were to get married. Similar to Harley's POJA. So you may say to your gal "hey, how would going camping twice a year work for you?" It's simply an effort to work out whatever "red flags" or kinks there might be, and see if there is a way to make everyone happy.

Acceptance Once you get here, you have known your partner long enough to know where you are compatible, and where you may not be completely compatible, and you have worked through the concerns that are significant to both of you. You have found that although no one is perfect, you can accept this non-perfect person as they are, because either they have made efforts to to accommodate your needs (meeting your needs) or you have found a way to work around those areas where they won't meet your needs for whatever reason. Once you have reached this acceptance, and you still are in love with this gal, well then you are in a good place to make more permanent decisions about your future.

This is just my recollection of how the concepts worked, but it made sense to me, and still does. The point is that in Infatuation phase, it's easy to say that you are in love like you never have been before, and love will conquer all. But it does not. So it's important to give things some time, to let the hormones settle down, to get to know the person beyond the initial facade... And then see how you feel.

Hope this helps.

AGG

I don't quite get that, schtoop. It seems like you tried to talk past his concern - he doesn't want a stepmom, and you "assured" him that this is not the case, but is that true? You are not considering the possibility of getting married again?


I think we posted right past each other, so maybe what I said in my post above helps. I know the term Disillusionment sounds strong (doesn't help that is so close to "Dissolution"), but does not mean that you suddenly start seeing this new person as the devil incarnate. Just that you suddenly realize that they are only human, and are not perfect, and may even have some surprises for you that you did not expect. That's all. Just something to keep an eye out for.

I know that in my post divorce dating, I have met many women with whom this pattern repeated by the book. Each time the "disillusionment" was different, in many cases things that I have never dealt with before (the examples above were all real from my experiences, and in addition I met women who had serious financial issues, mental illness, serious family issues, etc). In most cases I tried to negotiate my way through the issues, only to find in the end that I couldn't. That all changed in my last relationship, which is why we are now married . But that is not to say that my wife and I did not have "disillusionment" moments here and there, we did. We were just mature enough to discuss them, process them, and accept or work around them until we were both happy.

AGG

Same with me AGG. I tried everything, but all she said was NO! NO! and NO! Marriage counseling - NO! Talk to our pastor - NO!

Interestingly, I later found out they had talked to the OM's pastor who encourged them in the affair, since he believed god was blessing them. It seems that the pastor had once had an affair but broke it off, and later regretted breaking it off! And this is the guy she was taking advice from. Oh well, water under the bridge.

They always say that "I never meant to hurt you (or the kids)". My reply is simple: You chose to have the affair, you knew it would hurt the kids and me, you did it anyway.

AGG put the phases into a very good summary.

I finally found someone who has everything i was looking for and the infatuation stage hit the max. I went a bit too far in a few emails, no "I love you" as I knew that was not true yet, and she was not happy on the third date, left me a bit strangely, and I just knew that I had to get a hold my emotions, so i just told her that I met her too soon, which was very true. A couple of kisses, no resistance from her, just that i was getting too serious to fast with words, not with actions.

tried to make another date, she agreed, but i found some good reasons to avoid it, and just told her i was making some improvements. . . and radio silence for a month. ..

had a couple of other dates, didn't work out past the first encounter, sent a christmas email to the infatuated one, and I have a much better handle on myself, and she responded with some flirtation, which is good, as the initial two dates did go well, and we have alot of potential together. . . just the timing is all off, very badly, and that has to be taken into account to NOT force the relationship.

My learning point is that understanding your ideal choice is very, very key to your own success, and that can only be done through lots of dating interactions, and lots of reflection and knowing what type of person you really want, and never, ever accept the first one after divorce, never, ever. . . because your frame of reference is so warped that making an intelligent decision is practically IMPOSSIBLE. self control is very, very important to be able to make early mistakes and not kill all potential.

There is a possibility that I will be moving across country for work, and that can kill many people who are set in their ways. Ms Infatuation is the only person i have met so far who can actually deal with that very easily if she chooses, but getting past that infatuation stage is a beeyitch, i couldn't sleep for more than 5 hours a night for several months. . . and even now, there is no future guarantee of anything successful, just a potential, nothing more.

just saying, put re-marriage out of your mind for now, and just have fun meeting new people. . . meet as many people as you can WITHOUT sex, without commitment, and platonically as possible. BE HONEST with the other people, and you will come out the better person. Just because you now have relationship success knowledge doesn't mean every relationship will be a success. .

are you laughing AGG? you should be, it a huge bee-itch I am fighting the infactuation urge big time, and its only been 3 dates in the first month and its now 3 months later. . . am tempted to set up a January date with much more control, which means more fun. . .

wiftty

Hey AGG, thanks from Opt for the breakdown of the stages outlined above. I didn't take the time to say that makes sense even though I was kinda hoping the infatuation stage could just go on indefinitely, lol.

Soooooo, it's been about a week. What's up Schtoop?!

Happy New Year. I'll probably be texting the woman I'm sweet on at midnight since I have my kids through Sunday. That's okay, she gets it.

Beats last New Years Eve, though; wxw kissing gosh-knows-who 3 thousand miles away.

Opt

Wishing you all well in your New Year's dates...but somehow I'm kind of glad I'm not into all that right now, the breather feels good. I'll probably be home in my jammies enjoying a good cup of coffee, looking out the window at all the snow I already shoveled, a fire crackling in the fireplace, with my cute dog sitting next to me...I won't even ask you all what that says about me! LOL To all of us, a Happy New Year, may next year be better than the last and better than the one before that!

Personally I think 'all that' says a lot of good things about you KayC, not the least of which is that you seem to be a self-sufficient, confident woman who is satisfied in her own accomplishments. I hope you had a wonderful evening, the last night of 2010 and I'm certain 2011 will be better for you and with any luck for the rest of us as well!

Opt

Hey my friends, and happy New Year!

I have to admit that I am way past the stage of taking WIFTT's advice. The stages of a relationship make sense, but I have definitely violated the "never, ever with the first one" rule and I'm going to ride it out for good or for bad.

The whole last two weeks have been a whirlwind and kind of a coming out party. It started with my lady taking me as a date to a dinner party that was attended by many influential members of her congretation. Then it was for drinks at another dear friends house, another night cooking dinner for her, a good friend, and her father that had just arrived in town. Meeting her side of the fence culminated in Christmas Eve get together that I helped with the hosting at her house that included a few friends and her close family (her three children are grown).

Christmas morning I went to WxW's house for the present opening. I had a good selection of nice presents for the boys, but of course mine were outclassed by the excess the WxW bestowes on them every year. From there it was my turn with the kids for the next 10 days.

Then it was my turn, I brought my lady for an overnight visit to my mom's house where my whole family gathers for the holidays.

Everyone on both sides has been supportive for the most part, but it was kind of intense doing so many introductions to so many important people in such a short time.

My brother (also divorced) was the most cautious, and he warned me about moving too fast. He also cited himself as an example stating that he's been seeing a girl for 9 months and hasn't yet introduced her to his children or family. That may be fine for where he's at, but it is also a little devaluing to a partner to keep them quarantined from the rest of your world so long.

We are still strong in the "infatuation stage", but with meeting the families and my children a good dose of reality has come into the relationship. I don't mean "reality" in a negative connotation, just a clearer view of our current circumstances and what we want out of a long-term partner. There are some challenges to be sure, but nothing yet that screams this will never work. We are both fully aware that there's a chance that we can't successfully mesh, but that doesn't mean we are not even going to try, either.

One last awkward moment to pass along, my lady was at my house last evening having dinner with me and the boys. Guess who drops by to drop off some clothes and school stuff? That's right, WxW. I invited her in and there was a brief intoduction. WxW hung around a little too long telling me what needs to be done and talking with the boys, but everyone was cordial and respectful. One final thought, WxW did come by unannounced and my lady's car was in the driveway, so the awkward moment could have been avoided and she just call me later. What is the message here?

It sounds like she wanted to assert herself into the situation (kind of like a male dog peeing on his territory). Not that it matters...she's out and time she realizes it!

It sounds like you had a wonderful holiday season though!

I've heard it said that it upsets waywards when they learn the ones they left are rebuilding their lives -- without them. My guess is that they are so full of themselves that they expect their betrayed spouses to spiral down into depression, loss, and despair. Some do, I fear, but some don't.

Those that don't just become burrs under the saddle of the waywards who can't believe the loss of their presence can be tolerated, managed and even (gasp!) enjoyed!

To me it matters not a hoot what was going through the ex's feeble mind during this episode. Not a hoot. What I believe is more important is how your new GF felt about it and is she reassured that there is no issue there. My guess is you have spoken with her about it (MB: intimate conversation, I believe), but you didn't mention it so I bring it up.

I hear this and get it also. I also think AGG's assertion was pertinent: "don't make any long term plans," based on the infatuation stage. I suppose that can mean different things to different people, but I suspect you haven't proposed yet. And from her side of things it doesn't sound like she's measuring for furniture or naming children yet, so you're probably okay.

Of course I have no real advice but it's great to hear from you Schtoop. I'm very glad you're enjoying life and have some good excitement.

Opt

Great insight, Opt. You are completely correct that my concern was how my GF felt about the whole encounter, not the WxW. We did talk about it and everything was cool. She asked me if I still had any attraction or feelings for the WxW and I assured her that I did not. In fact, I really haven't been physically attracted to WxW for years. Together we were able to assess that I do still have a need for WxW's approval which I am working to shed. It's just that I spent my entire married life working to please her and win her approval (praise or admiration is my top EN, often neglected) and old ways of relating to people are hard to change.

No worries on the long-term plans. We have both been married for a long time and aren't ready to jump back into it. Just taking it day-by-day right now.

The biggest obstacle right now is my time with the children. In fact, her "checklist" for a potential partner included "no young children". She doesn't resent my time with the boys and away from her, but she is sometimes disappointed when I am not available and has made it clear that she doesn't want to "compete" with them for my time and attention. So our mantra and what we will strive for is for her and the boys to "complement, not compete". In other words, find a good balance between alone adult time for her and I, time and activities we can all enjoy together, and time for just me and the boys. What she doesn't want (and I don't blame her) is to be relegated to a clear second priority.

Anyway, if it doesn't work out we both know the reason will be that she needs more of me than I am able to give. Meanwhile, we can take it day-by-day and see if we can't find that elusive balance.

Hey schtoop, good to hear that things are still moving along so well! The paragraph above is definitely something to keep an eye on, and it sounds like you are doing that. But all the more reason to give things lots of time, as it is only after a long period of time that it will beocme more clear whether or not she can be content with having to share you with the kids - some folks do this easily, others don't.

AGG

Talk about you guys hitting the nail on the head.

I decided to resurrect and update my thread and amazingly enough this was the last reply.

This past weekend we�ve had the first big �adjustment� in our relationship since we�ve been seeing each other.

I�ve been seeing the same woman since October and we grew together very quickly and intensely. I know all the warnings about rebound relationships and not falling for the first one you go out with, but there has been such chemistry and things felt so natural that we have just let things take their course.

Well, we have been spending so much time together and have grown so close that we began to think along the lines of �what if� and �maybe� in terms of a long-term future. No making plans or anything concrete like that, but she did commit to being exclusive for the first time. �If we�re together, then let�s BE together� was how she put it, which was good for me too. I saw it as more actively building for the future rather than passively watching what develops. This new commitment also went hand in hand with spending more time with me and the boys.

Well, along those lines we had planned a dinner out with the boys and then maybe to a movie afterwards. My oldest son (who can be very self-centered and disrespectful at times) showed up in a foul mood and was really showing his butt. He wanted to stay and play with his friends instead of going out, so he voiced his displeasure and pouted to a degree at having to go. My girlfriend viewed this as lashing out at her and really got her feelings hurt. While that may have been a part of it, most of the hostility was that he just didn�t want to go out that night and is used to getting his way.

Anyway, dealing with all of this demonstrated to her what we both already knew deep down. All of her children are grown and out of the house and she doesn�t really desire to be that involved with young children again, which she certainly would be if we were truly �together�. That evening was like getting slapped in the face by reality to her and seeing the possibility of a long-term future kind of crumble. We took her home right after dinner and she spent the night crying with a good friend.

We have decided to pull back a little and just enjoy each other when we can. That doesn�t mean that a long-term future is now out of the question, just that we will take it more slowly and not push nearly as hard. And, also accept the limitations of our situation if they become limitations.
We have spent a couple of very nice afternoons and evening together since then, but I think we�re both feeling a little sense of distance that we haven�t before. I hope that feeling goes away with more time, this is the first time we�ve had to pull back. But, I am also a little worried that the distance could grow.

Is she familiar with MB principles? I understand that you've backed off but in reality is that what either of you really want? If not, time to POJA the kid thing schtoop.

schtoop,

I am really interested to see what kind of advice you get from the people here. The scenario you described with your son is exactly what I dread. My 10 yr old has said flat out that he is not going to be happy if I bring someone home and he will be rude to him. So I dread this....I guess it is lucky that I seem to chase off any guys with my own issues before I even have a chance to cross this bridge.

I think taking a step back is the right decision. You are a package deal and if she can't adjust to that then ultimately she won't be good for you. Don't know the ages of your children, but mine are young so there really isn't the option of waiting til they are grown to date. I mean it is, but I would be so unhappy

A couple of answers to some questions.

One, she isn't necessarily familiar with MB's, but it has been easy to live by most of the principles so far. Undivided attention has been our strong point, RC is coming around, affection has never been a problems. We are both VERY open and honest with each other. I don't think POJA will be a problem, but we're close enough to being in the infatuation stage that our givers are still strong and it hasn't been a challenge.

However, she is a trained counselor (as being clergy) and is very well read in regard to relationships and such. She had me read some passages from "Soul Mates" by Thomas Moore, and it's pretty much on the other end of the scale from MB's. It's good to read other viewpoints and approaches, after reading what she pointed me to MB's seemed way too cookie-cutter or recipe like. So to answer the questions, I think she would be open to reading the books with me and taking what we can from them, but I would never try to force it to her as the only way.

AMMC read the situation wrong, or I'm sure I didn't write it up correctly, but I don't think my 10 year old was necessarily acting out at her. She has spent dinner and the evening half dozen or more times at my house with the boys and it went pretty well. It was more a case of her realizing that she would be back involved with everything that goes with kids, behavior issues, teen years, etc. I wouldn't blame anyone from being scared or not sure they want to get into that again, especially when there's complications of divorce in the background.

We can still see each other as much as we want when I don't have the boys, and pick our spots when I do. We're just going to take it much slower as far as her being fully involved with them.

Schtoop, this is one of the biggest pitfalls when dating with small kids, so don't feel bad about falling into it. Many of us have been there before you .

I read your post a few times, and I still am not sure what to say. To some extent, it's easy to "blame" your son for being a pain that evening. Only you know if this was him acting out of character, or if it was him just being himself. Depending on the answer, you'll know if this is one of those things that can be expected in the future, or was an unusual event.

I am more interested in her reaction. I think it should be telling you (and her) something, though I am not completely sure what . One way to view it is that she "forgot" what it's like to have kids, and got smacked with a dose of reality that she did not expect. Frankly, that's a bit surprising to me, since she is a mom, even though her kids are grown. So I would think that somewhere deep down inside she'd remember that small kids take work (and act out on occasion).

So I dunno. She said she didn't want to date someone with small kids, then she met you and got smitten, and presumably decided to ignore the kid issue - until it came into her daily life, which was bound to happen sooner or later. And she freaked. That's my read on it.

I guess it's OK to play "take it slow" for a bit, although I think the writing is on the wall. This is one of the biggest deal-breakers out there, and I am not really sure what there is to POJA. Your kids are not pets, and you will not do anything to compromise your bond with them. So if you and your kids (as a package) are a problem for her, then it is what it is. It does not speak badly of you, it does not speak badly of her - it's just a mismatch in expectations. Better to acknowledge it than to try to fit a round peg into a square hole.

See how you both feel in a few days, I guess. I'm sorry about this buddy.

AGG

We posted at the same time...


This is exactly how I read her reaction too... Not surprising, since she said earlier that she did not want to date someone with small kids.

AGG

AGG,

Your take is exactly on the money.

That's why she was so upset the other night, she had tried to convince herself that she could do the kid thing and got smacked in the face with reality.

You're also right about it possibly being a deal breaker, if we are both bent on having a "life partner" or nothing.

I think we are back to seeing if being with each other mostly when I don't have the kids will be satisfying for a while. Back to where we started, I wasn't looking to jump into another life-long relationship and she wasn't either. Think we're going back to just enjoying each other's company whenever we can be together. Nothing wrong with that for the time being, it doesn't have to be forever or bust right now.

How long can that kind of relationship sustain us? Will we grow together and her and the kids mesh by going slower? I guess we'll ride it out and find out.

I agree, there is no harm in trying to step back to something other than "life partner" dating. I do think that it is very hard to be successful at derating a relationship to a lower level than before, as I think there may be lots of confusion, and in fact may increase your sense of divided loyalties between your kids and her.

But it's worth a shot. You can deal with the issues as they come up.

AGG

How old is your son? He should always show respect to her and any other friends you have...I would have dealt with him on this, that is totally unacceptable. If I were her I would pull back too, but not because you have children, but because of how you deal with them...or don't. He is used to getting his own way? That is not good! He needs boundaries and discipline.

Count me in. I thought the same thing.

I guess your attraction to each other was pretty strong to continue to see each other, if you or she knew that she didn't want to raise kids again. What a bummer.

Hey Sh2p!
Good to see you're successfully navigating the single life and it's inherent dangers! You have good advice from the folks here, I won't even presume to add to it. I'm just glad to see you posting and to know that you are dealing with problems MUCH more reasonable than a cheating spouse, and that you've moved on.
I�ll update my thread pretty soon, but in case you�re worried about me, I�m still living my life in parallel with yours, lol. I think you may have pulled ahead of me a little. I�ve been dating a woman for over a month and since we knew of each other before, things have progressed pretty quickly. She has yet to meet my kids so reading your situation has been really helpful to me.
Well, I�ll see you over on Another AD Story~ I have the kids Wednesday through Tuesday this week so I�m not sure when I�ll get to it; things are going fine though. Real fine.
Opt

Wow,you guys know how to see right through to the heart of the matter.

Yes, Kay, this is a big part of what happened the other night. My oldest (10) has always been self-centered and demanding, probably because he has always been put first his entire life (including above our marriage, see how that worked out). I have had some really good conversations with my girlfriend on his behavior, how it got that way, and some great ideas on how to work on correcting it.

He was disrespectful to her and to me, and I tried to let it go so it wouldn�t upset the evening. Bad way to handle it, I know.

With going through the divorce, I think both parents have overcompensated with the kids in an effort to keeps the least upsetting as possible, I know I am guilty of this.
I won�t go into details, and I�m not doing it as a reaction to the other night, but I am implementing some new rules and new ways of doing things at my house. So far he is responding well, I just need to keep following through.

Opt, thanks for checking in. Will catch up to you on your thread.

Schtoop, I've been thinking about your situation some more. And I just want to remind you that just like you should not make any permanent decisions in the Infatuation Phase, you do not necessarily need to give up as soon as you find yourself in Disillusionment Phase either...

Your GF has gotten a good dose of Disillusionment, but that is par for the course... No harm in trying to slowly enter into the Negotiation Phase, as I described a couple of pages back.

AGG

Well at least you're dealing with it now, and it's also a good lesson to her to not date someone with kids if she doesn't want kids...they come with.

No real harm done except the pain of going your own ways after starting to fall for each other...and that's hard. Good luck to you!

I think we all experience some delusion after the infactuation stage wears off. And this is where the rubber meets the road, because now you are in the negotiation stage of the relationship, since no one is going to be completely equal matches.

If you can negotiate in a loving and mature way, that will be what makes or breaks a relationship. You also have to be aware that some things may not be negotiable, and you'd have to ask yourself if you can "live with that".

i prefer remaining in the infatuation stage, its fun, there is alot of adrenaline, i have nice dreams at night. . .

can I ward off the Disillusionment Phase, because that blew me out of the water last time?

I had my first good dating experience last saturday night, first time i did everything right with a new woman. Does take practice, especially if its been 10 years since dating new people. . .

so I get another date, most likely a bunch more, but i am going slow with the expectations. . . even though she looks and feels like she is my idealize match, or someone very, very similar to her.

its all in accepting the randomness of meeting people, and how to react and interact, while looking for the a great relationship. ..

wiftty

Wow, wiftty, talk about serendipitous!

I just responded to a remark you made on my thread very much along these same lines.

Going slow, learning about each other, taking a mental inventory checklist against Dr. Harley's ENQ.

Because we want to be wiser, more experienced, and better all-around.

Why be stupid now?

Glad you had a good time on your date. Sounds like you have the right mindset in your lastest post.

Enjoy.

Time for a brief update, nothing much to report.

Things still going very well in my current relationship. We had the big disillusionment issue with my kids, but have put that behind us pretty well. She is exposed to them periodically and everyone has gotten along well, but nothing is forced and we're taking it very slowly on that front.

She did begin to break out in hives just yesterday when I was giving her a rundown of soccer practice schedule, homework and projects due, and upcoming scout activities. She was very honest in saying she doesn't miss that at all. I told her I understood, but that I'm not going to insulate her from that part of my life, either. No rush for her to jump into being involved with children at that level, but it is my life and a big part of who I am.

We see each other practically every day now. If I have the boys, she will have dinner with us once or more a week, or just hang out and watch TV and put in a movie as they go to bed.

When I don't have them I am at her house a lot.

On all other fronts we are still firmly in the infatuation stage and our feelings for each other grow stronger and stronger.

We are still going with the mindset of just taking things day by day, enjoying being with each other when we can, and let the future work itself out. Seems to be working for us right now.

Something to consider Schtoop......

You may want to envision what your ideal partner looks like, and what you want out of a relationship. If you want a partner in parenting too, she may not ever want to fill that role. I can't see that working out long term.

I found out 12 years into my marriage, in a marriage counseling session, that my husband didn't feel at all responsible for my two children, his stepchildren. No wonder he was never supportive to me or the children all of those years. He only was supportive of us if he wanted to be. Not like it is for real parents who have the 24/7 responsibility of being a parent.

Of course, it's all in what you want in a relationship. Even though my kids are grown now, I want to be with someone who knows how important my kids are to me, and is willing to try to establish a relationship with them.

Dating is the interview process as they say.

That is something to consider....what am I looking for in a partner?

When I first decided to start dating again, a long-term partner or (gasp) getting married again was the furthest from my mind. I just wanted to meet and enjoy the company of the fairer sex.

At the most, I envisioned finding someone to go out with once or twice a week and enjoy each others company, but still have our seperate lives. Didn't see a rush to exclusivity and certainly not a life partner.

That is what I set out looking for. I was not "interviewing".

Then I met this lady who has shaken all that up. I'm still not ready to say that I want a life partner, nor a stepmother for my boys. But, the relationship does have me re-evaluating my goals and what I want from a relationship. The ship has kind of sailed on the "casual" type of arrangement I described above, and I'm glad that it has. I'm also fairly certain that neither of us is ready to start considering a more permanent committment. That may come with time, but we are not there yet.

So, the taking things day-by-day is okay for now. How long will it be OK? I don't know, but it is fine for where both of our goals are at this time.

I also don't want to give the impression that she has no interest in my children or doesn't understand how important they are. She does and she is taking small steps at a time.

But, I do appreciate her honesty. Better to know up front, and all along the journey, exactly where she stands and feels about being involved in their lives. The worst thing for all involved would be for both of us to delude ourselves and jump into an arrangement that we really aren't ready for.

So to answer your question, her hesitancy with the boys is not a deal breaker for where my relationship goals are at this time.

Schtoop,
It sounds like you're on a merry-go-round and if she wants time with you she has to run and jump on for the ride! And there's nothing wrong with that, that is how it is when you're raising kids and you're an involved parent...I remember those days all too well and loved every minute of it. It could be that as she gets to know your kids better and if she becomes an integral part of your life, she may want to step up to the plate...but it's not something you can count on. It may sail along like it is for quite some time and then one of you may want something more, and that's when a decision will be made that the relationship may continue or end. In dating someone with different desires, that is a risk you take, just so you don't get caught off guard. What's hard is when you fall for someone completely and THEN it ends for whatever reasons...not something that can't be gotten through, but it's just hard nonetheless. Just so you never compromise (and I don't think you will) in a way that would be detrimental to your kids. It sounds like you're doing a terrific job with them. Let her be the decider if she wants to be along for the ride or not, you keep going the direction that you need to.

On a related subject...,

I was trying to decide between the hoodie-footie pajamas or the Vermont teddy bear for a Valentine's Day present. Looks like I don't have to decide!!

Pajamas

Sweet!

That is too cute! I like the cami's...add a pink zippered sweatshirt and you're set for any time of year!

Schtoop, day by day stuff is all fine and dandy... But I'd be a little concerned about your kids getting attached to her with so much time spent together, if she is not even sure she wants to do the kid thing again... I'd probably err on the side of seeing her more one-on-one, and leaving the kids out of it, I dunno.

AGG

Hey Sh2p,
Good to hear your latest update. I'm watching you very close and am grateful to all those with advice about mixing GF and kids. It's helping me a lot.
Opt
PS - Learning2Liv has a thread in the Divorce section entitled "should I marry again" (or something like that). SmilingWoman then posted a link to an article about things to look for in a marriage partner - you'll see it. I read it today and it was pretty cool. Another marriage is a long ways away but I, like you, never intended to be in a relationship like this at this juncture either. The woman I'm dating is so sweet and kind. I didn't know there were any out there like her .

That is a great article btw. I merged it with my 'top ten list' and when I met my dh I 'knew'. On our wedding day I gave him a copy of my top ten list and told him he was everything I ever wanted and didn't believe existed.

Sorry, didn't have time to look for your link.

But, GF did share her three-page handwritten list with me a while back. I pretty much nailed every item, except one.

Hey Schtoop! how's it going my friend? You havent' been around in a little while.
I am reading a book about compatability that someone suggested on my thread: "Will our Love Last"
It's been interesting not just from the dating perspective but it's giving me a new sense of just how off me and wxw really were. [not that there's an excuse for her wayward behavior or checking out of the marriage without discussing it with me first, sheesh... ...]

I thought of you and your above post about hitting the bullets on the list.
Is your lady hitting your bullet list, sh2p?

opt

Hey Opt and all, guess I have been pretty quiet lately and that's a good thing.

Things are still going very well with Preacher Girl(PG). I never really had a "list" of what I was looking for, just a few items that would definitely eliminate a potential partner. I think an extensive list is rather limiting, especially when we aren't even sure of what we are looking for.

My brother, who divorced several years ago, jokingly claimed he would never partner up with an intelligent woman again. Rather have someone simple who would always follow his lead. Well, PG is definitely not in that mold, she is extremely intelligent, well-read, and insightful. She actually humbles me at times.

On another front, my exwife had weight and self esteem issue and I really hadn't found her physically attractive in many years. Not to sound shallow, but it really is nice right now to be with someone who totally rocks my world as far as physical attractiveness goes.

As far as the relationship goes, we are kind of experiencing the ebb and flow of finding how we fit together. Some times it feels so good and natural that we get caught up in imagining a life together. Other times it's more in perspective and no one is in any rush to give up newfound feedom and independence. Remember, I had been married for 16 years and she had been married for 29. She has her children grown and out of the house and has dreams of traveling and exploring new paths in life. Because of my children, job, and situation, I just don't have the freedom to get up and go like that and she struggles with the idea of tying herself back down for another 12+ years. That is the long-term challenge, can we mesh these two realities together well enough to be fulfilling for both of us?

In the near future, we have 3-day camping trip planned for next week with the boys, and next month the two of us have a 4-day weekend planned in New Orleans.

We're not putting any pressure on ourselves to come to a "now or never" decision. We love being together when we can right now, so take it day by day and enjoy the moment.

Good to hear from you schtoop and I'm glad things are going well!

Doesn't sound shallow to me. It's an EN according to Harley. NG is in very good shape - she eats well and exercises. That means something to me as I try to do the same. PA fits in there somewhere.

Before MB I never knew how to look at physical attractiveness. It just always seemed important but I didn't know why. Anyway, I'm glad PG and you are enjoying each other; I'm sure you both feel very fortunate to have met each other.

Opt

Hi Schtoop,

Just dropping in to say "Hi". I'm glad you and PG are enjoying each other's company. Sounds like some fun times coming up.

Agree with Opt. I don't think it's shallow at all. I also have a high EN for physical attractiveness.

And I've always known that a lot of guys care about that. I was never delusional enough to believe that it didn't matter. I felt validated when that was listed as an EN.

Wow, has it really been two months since I posted on my own thread???

I have chimed in and shared what's happening on other peopls's threads, but have neglected my own.

Quick rundown, things are still going very well with Preacher Girl (PG). We just celebrated our 6-month anniversary. We went to New Orleans a couple weeks ago for a weekend and Jazzfest. We had a great time overall, but there was a little bit of discovery (won't call it disillusionment) on the trip, also. Just another step towards learning each other. We still value our time together and spend nearly every available opportunity to be together. She is also becoming more comfortable and integrated with the boys, from spending time with us out or at my house to having us over to hers on several occasions.

I've had a couple of interactions with xWW that are interesting. A few weeks ago she was very chatty when exchanging the boys, and the subject came up of them being welcome to come use her pool even when they are with me. She said just call first to make sure no one else is there. I didn't comment any further then to say "OK, no problem". A little later in the conversation she made another comment about someone hanging out. After a third mention, I took the bait and asked if she was seeing someone. Of course that's what she wanted and she gave me a few sparse details. But, she did reiterate how the boys don't know and she keeps it totally separate from them. I know that's a dig at me having PG around them as much as I do, but the great thing about being divorced is that her opinion is no longer of any consequence. I'm actually glad that she has someone to hang out with.

XWW has also been stressed because she is homeroom mom at their school and has been very busy with a summer carnival, field trip, etc. and her work. This is more of the same and I always told her she overextended herself trying to be supermom to the point that she was either absent or exhausted at home. I know she feels I'm not stepping up to the plate enough in this regard, but I do plenty for them and their extracurriculars. Again, her opinion has no bearing anymore and that feels so freeing.

Last weekend I took the boys shopping and made sure they had cards and gifts for Mother's day. I arranged for them to spend lunch and much of the afternoon with her, even though it was my weekend. I even include a card from myself that briefly thanked her for what she does for the boys. Haven't heard a word of thanks, yet.

One last thing, I had the boys for Easter weekend and we had a great time. Took the boys to Easter service at PG's church. This was a big step. I have been introduced to many of her congretation and come to her services from time to time and sit in the back. But, bringing in the whole clan on Easter is a bit more of a demonstration of us being together. After service we went back to my house for Easter egg hunts and a nice dinner. PG even found a few eggs of her own, a couple with a matching pearl and leather ring and earrings in them. Talk about home run!

Schtoop!!

Sounds good, man. I like your tone. It seems like you are comfortable with the way things are going. That says a lot and I bet the kids are benefitting from the calm and good vibe of it all.

I guess we both understand the Infatuation stage can't last forever, so a little "discovery" or reality if you will, is a good thing. I'm sure PG is an awesome chick and I'm glad you found each other.

I credit you with your interactions with xww. They seem very mature, but you also portray a sense of detachment; that is very healthy for the kids not to think Mom and Dad hate each other. I never wanted to be there with xww either - not good for anyone. Giving her a card was a kind gesture, in my opinion.

Funny thing - I invited NG to church on Easter weekend (for one of the many masses I attended). It didn't work out because she was with her family and everything. I have to admit I was a little nervous. That would be a "big step" I'm not sure I'm ready for. It will happen eventually. In time - no rush.

Do you still feel a little "split" between PG and the boys? And do you ever get time just for schtoop? Have they asked if you intend to marry PG? Do they see her trying to fulfill any type of motherly role?
My 14 yo is having a hard time - I haven't brought it up in my thread yet, but he has said he doesn't like the idea of me marrying another woman. Funny because he was all gung-ho about me dating back in the beginning. I'm just taking it slow with him - I think he's afraid to "lose me" but it's hard to figure an adolescent.

Thanks for the update and I'm really happy for you.

opt

Thanks for checking in and for the support, Opt.

About PG and my boys,

When I first introduced them, DS7 was very open and friendly, but DS10 told me afterwards that he DID NOT want a stepmother or step siblings. We talked about it and explained how she didn't have young children, so that was not an issue. I also told him that we weren't even thinking of marriage now, we just enjoy being with each other. He resisted to some degree, not with open hostility, but just not being very present when she was around.

Now she has developed a strong warmth for DS7. He is the sweetest little boy and loves hanging around her. DS10 has transitioned to full-on acceptance and now acts completely normal around her and even friendly and engaging most of the time. I still hear a comment every now and then (in private) that she comes over too much, and I am careful to have a day or two out of my time with them when its just me and the boys. PG still likes and gets along with the youngest better, but is warming up to DS10 more and more every day.

Any talk about soccer games and practice, cub scouts, school projects still gives PG the hives (she says she's been there, done that), but she genuinely likes hanging out at the house, eating dinner, or going on fun outings with us.

She's not assumed a motherly role yet, but is getting more comfortable about correcting the boys when they need it or correcting me when I need it!

She still struggles from time to time with me being somewhat unavailable when I have the boys, but that is eased a little with the increased time she spends with us together.

You ask about any "Schtoop" time? Not really, or not at all is more like it. Cannot remember the last time I had a day completely to myself. I have missed most of the spring fishing season and hardly have put my boat in the water. That's going to change now that soccer season is ended. Time for myself is something I need to put higher on the priority list.

Yep, finding that elusive balance seems to be troubling most of us in the BH 'class' the most. Balancing time between kids, family, significant others (or dates with possible SOs), friends, work, and our own 'me time'. Not sure what the right mix is, but if you crack the code on it, let us know!

It sounds like you and Opt are getting pretty close to that balance though, and it's good to see.

This post was timely SOL. Not to t/j but it wouldn't be the first time for me and schtoop on that...

Friday I had a conversation with NG and it had been a few days since we had seen each other. My tone came through wrong on the cell phone and NG got to thinking all different negative thoughts. By the time I got to see her on Saturday she was in a bit of a state and we had to work through it all. [fortunately she's a very forgiving and trusting person and doesn't want to linger with any negativity so when it's in the past, it's in the past]. I have to say the way we talked through it was so refreshing - difficult at first, but still so much different than what I'm used to...

Basically it was a little communication issue. HOWEVER, it was also rooted in the BALANCE issues that we've been struggling with. Balance, and maybe lack of confidence rooted in both NG's and my history of being hurt/betrayed. We mostly only text when I have my kids (3-4 days/wk). But that creates distance. And the distance, we've found, has created a disconnect. We've decided to be a little more free with direct communication when I have the kids.

Sound familiar Schtoop? or what experience have you had with anything like this?


I know. NG encourages me to spend some time on my own doing things I need to do. I try but I'd rather be with her. It's not that I'm lonely, I just really like being around her. It's like I'm breathing different air or something. If I do get time on my own it's strictly for chores and things around the house. I would not enjoy going "out" without her.

I hope PG likes to fish!

opt

Oh yeah, Opt, very familiar. I have had several similar discussions with PG. She is very open and frank and says that she can�t help but be jealous or resentful of the time I spend with my kids. We will have a great 3 or 4 days together when I am without the boys, then see each other only a little when I have them. She can�t help but feel lonely because I have the boys to take up my time away and enjoy, where she only has a lonely house.

Of course she recognizes me as a great father and knows the children are my priority, and she wouldn�t respect or care for me if I didn�t treat them as such. But, that doesn�t make it easier when we have to be apart.

How do I deal with this issue? First, I make time and fun occasions where she can join me and the boys. Sunday dinner is a regular thing. We�ve gone hiking and even camping for a few days together. We plan on going out on the boat on Memorial Day. Including her in our Easter celebration was huge.

Secondly, I let her know through words and actions that the children are a priority, but that doesn�t mean that she is a distant second or afterthought. One way is to still be available for special events even when it is your time with the children. On several occasions I have hired a baby sitter so that we could go to a special show or party that PG wanted to go together to. Declining all such invitations because you have the kids is a good way to show NG that she is just second fiddle.

I�ll close with a recent story. Me and PG had a great weekend together last weekend. Monday started my time with the boys, but we had talked about me bringing them to her neighborhood pool that afternoon. Well, after I picked the boys up from school and got home, the weather had turned cool and cloudy and I had a ton of stuff that needed catching up on at my house. So I called and politely declined coming over to her pool. She totally understood the reasons, but the disappointment was still there and it reinforced the reality that I still have a somewhat separate life. We talked through it, and she adamantly told me I did nothing wrong, but it did bring the same old issue back to the surface.

Uh oh, we seem to have hit a bump in the road.

Not the first, but this one may be longer lasting or more significant.

A bit of history, Preacher Girl (PG) and I have known from the start that we are still fresh off our divorces and in no hurry to jump into another marriage. I never really spelled it out in this thread, but throughout our 7 month relationship we had never pledged exclusivity to each other. My position was that I was perfectly happy being with her alone, that I didn't feel the need (or the time, to be frank) to look elsewhere. Her position was that she wasn't actively looking for other dates, but wasn't ready to close off all other possibilities yet. We both knew where we stood and were fine with it. She always chose to be with me, there has never been an occasion when I was free to be with her and she had plans with someone else.

That changed a few weeks ago, we have grow very close and started actually thinking (or dreaming) about a long-term future together. She declared me her "boyfriend" and said that it would be only me now.

I knew this was moving along too fast and there would still be ebbs and flow in our relationship, but it felt really good to be getting to that place.

Fast forward to last Friday, PG got a call not from her ex-husband, but from her daughter informing her that the ex-husband was getting married (their divorce has only been final for a year). She was incensed and triggered at the same time, first for having to hear if from her daughter, and secondly because it was so soon. The news really put her in a funk, and now she's re-evaluating everything.

She says from seeing his situation that she realized we have been moving way to fast and she is nowhere near ready for this kind of committment or plans of a future together. So she is "pulling back" a little in her words, and that also means she's not ready to cut off the possibility of seeing someone else. She still loves me and doesn't want to "pull away", just wants to return to where we were just a few weeks ago, taking it day by day and enjoying each other.

I truly appreciate how she feels and that she is being completely up front and honest with me, but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. Boxing her in or making demands will do nothing but drive her away, so I'm doing my best to meet her where she is comfortable. The truth is that I got caught up in it also, but I am far from ready to consider a more permanent arrangement myself. I told her this, but at the same time I let her know that she is everything I would want when I am ready.

So, it sucks to move backwards instead of forward, but where we were a few weeks ago isn't such a bad place, either.

In a totally unrelated note, ex-WW has gotten under my skin this week. DS10 showed up on the changeover on Friday with a new prepaid cell phone his mom gave him and allows him to carry. I wouldn't have gotten him one yet, but no big deal especially if she is paying.

Only thing is guess what? It's her friggin' old affair phone! Complete with a history of calls to the OM back from before we had made the decision to divorce. I know it's just a piece of hardware and I'll just erase the call history, but what a thing to give your son.

Waywards do the damnest things.

Sorry if I am being out of line by asking, but have you and PG not been "intimate" so far? If not, then more power to you, but if you have, then isn't it a bit inappropriate to be pondering the possibility of seeing someone else after already taking that plunge?

AGG

I see no reason why you should have to constantly trigger just because your X is thoughtless...maybe you could get him a different phone and sell that one? Or at least clear the history! It'd be nice if the number was changed too. Grrr!

As for slowing down in your relationship...try to view it as a good thing, something protective for both of you, as a safeguard, rather than seeing it as going backwards. It's not a rejection of you, but rather a reminder (from the past) of what neither of you wants to happen. If it's meant to be, it will still work.

Thanks, Kay.

I'm not too triggered by the phone, it's just a piece of hardware. I'll just clear the history and think nothing more of it.


This is exactly how we are viewing it. The openess and honesty that we share is one of the things that is great about this relationship. PG said she could have spared my feelings and just kind of acted like things were still the same, but that she wasn't pretending for anyone ever again (after doing so long in her marriage).

Of course, what frightens me terribly is the possibility of PG meeting someone wealthier, no kids, charming, and I get left behind. But, I guess that's always a possibility regardless...

I don't know if you saw my post/question just before kay's post, but I don't understand this at all... Who the heck goes looking for other prospects after several months of a monogamous relationship, even if it is "just dating"? Looking for other people to meet is not the same as "slowing down", so I don't understand what she is trying to do.

AGG

I think she's trying to back up to where they were prior to entering into an exclusive relationship...it's not easy to do this and I'm not sure everyone could. If someone is interested in someone, I have no idea why they'd want to date someone else, esp. if they've already gotten to know them and been seeing them exclusively. Keeping your options open is usually at the beginning, not midway into a relationship.

Exactly. That's why I am puzzled as to how/why she wants to put the genie back in the bottle.

AGG

That had been our understanding the whole 7 months (that we weren't officially "exclusive"), it only changed two or three weeks ago. And it's not like she's dating around while we've been going out, she hasn't been out with anyone else since early in our relationship. And it's not like she is out there actively seeking others, she just doesn't want to be boxed in so soon after her divorce.

Kay is right, it is definitely hard to go back.

Very easy to explain: She got very scared at how much she cares for you. She revisited the pain her XH caused her when she found out he was remarrying. This caused her to panic. Give her time...it will go back to the way it was. Trust me, BTDT!

I might not have much helpful to add to astute comments of my colleagues here, but I just wanted to chime in with support for your stuggles and make a couple of observations.
~good to see you schtoop. I'm always interested to hear how things are going with you.
First I have to say - another uncanny paralell: my DD10 just acquired a phone over the weekend too, compliments of exFIL during a shopping trip with exww. spooky.

I don't know about the exclusivity thing. Nature Girl and I made it pretty clear early on that we weren't interested in seeing other people. We just had too much fun together. I don't think our realtionshiop would be the same if we didn't have that understanding.

The only thing that jumped out at me schtoop about PG is that she has feelings one way or the other about how soon her ex should tie the knot again. Something's off there, in my mind...

opt

I understand that part, which is why I think having a relationship (as opposed to just dating) soon after a divorce is never a good idea.

Still, this state of mind is very odd for someone who has been involved in a relationship for 7 months:



Maybe I am getting caught up in semantics.. Obviously no one ever "cuts off the possibility of meeting someone else" until a ring is put on... So what is she trying to say with this comment?

AGG

Thanks for chiming in, guys, everyone has valid points.

I believe that what Brits is saying is true at more than one level. It also scares her to feel as strongly for me as she does knowing my situation (young children, tied to this town).

She is also very outgoing, loves the attention and flirting, and has scores of suitors who would love to step in. This was OK for a while, felt really good for my ego that I was the one she chose to be with. Not very safe now that she is "pulling back", and I don't need you guys to tell me this.


Definitely says she's not ready for a ring! But, neither am I in spite of the recent "imagining" of more.

Where this leaves us and where will we go from here, I am as confused as you guys.

She is leaving tomorrow for three weeks at her father's place in New England. I will be joining her in a week to spend 7 days there with her. Maybe a little time away, then time for just the two of us, will clarify things a little. Maybe not.

I'm going to try not to overanalyze things and just have a good time when I'm up there.

After that, we'll see if I (or we) can be happy with just taking it day by day.

Funny, I had a very different image of her until you said this. I saw her as a more pensive and reserved kind of person, shows you how much the internet leaves out.. Ya think ya know someone and then...

Anyway, the reality is that life is full of "other prospects"; some folks are better than others at resisting them. It's how folks handle these "other prospects" that really matters. Some tend to avoid and ignore them, others attract and enjoy them. I can see how being involved with someone who is flirty and outgoing can be disconcerting, especially when they tell you that they are not closed to the idea of meeting other people. If it helps, I was married to a woman just like that, thinking (mistakingly) that once she was married, the flirting and the awareness of other men would stop. Even after divorce, I initially ended up dating a woman like that. Then I realized that I don't want to always have to worry about who is chasing after my wife, or whom my wife is eyeing. Life is too short to have to put up with that, I decided. So I became more and more attracted to women who did not need men's attention for validation, which is exactly the type of woman I am married to now, and couldn't be happier.

Coming back to your situation schtoop, it seems like there is not much you can do at this point. We all know you can't keep someone against their will (with or without a ring), and if they need to pull back, pull away, or whatever, that is their prerogative. All you can control are your reactions to their actions. And here I would urge you to take the longer view of things, not just "how do I not lose this great woman?", but take a long hard look at whether this is the right woman for you, and especially if the reverse is true. Since someone for whom you are not right is by definition wrong for you too, you might want to think about those things you mentioned above, the stuff about small kids and being tied to this town. If she does not want that, then best to deal with it sooner rather than finding out later that those were big issues for her.

Still, I'm not sure how the idea of "taking it one day at a time" can work for someone who has been involved in a relationship for 7 months already. It's very hard to go back.

I hope everything works out for you and PG, schtoop.

AGG

Now you've got it, AGG. Pegged her and the situation perfectly.

Like your story about being with the flirty women whe need attention. The vivacious outgoing personality is one of the things that so attracted me to her, but is also a negative once you start talking about lifetime committments, boundaries, and EP's. If we got to that point, it would have had to be addressed. Good comments about finding someone who doesn't need that kind of attention.

You are also right about not controlling her, only myself. I've had a ton of fun and fullfilment to this point being with her.

If we can return to where we were just two or three weeks ago, then I'm great with that and will continue to enjoy her company. We can be together without the pressure of having to build to the ultimate goal of a lifetime committment.

If its too hard to go back, or if she pulls back too much farther, then we may have to re-evaluate. Like you say, better now than later.

Thanks for the perspective, it jives pretty well with my own thoughts.

good insight from AGG as usual. Thanks AGG - goes to me too...
........."clarify", or obscure?.........
This picqued my interest. I've had a couple getaway weekend with NG, just me and her. Very romantic and with $LB deposits going sky high. But then reality hits on Monday am: work, kids, schedules. Makes it hard for me to see the TRUE nature of the relationship. IE: are we REALLY in love, or just floating on the feelings of exclusive attention for a couple days? Is this normal? Maybe it's not recommended by MB/relationship epxerts to set up these kinds of "dates" until cartain points in the relationship have been reached....

Just thinking out loud schtoop - shamelessly borrowing your thread for my own selfish purposes once again.

opt

Sure, I'm happy to offer perspective any time . That's the "beauty" of having dated for 10 years before remarrying - experience .

You are right, vivacious and outgoing are very attractive qualitites in a partner, especially to someone who just got divorced and has become used to being "neglected" in the marriage - nothing like someone "exciting" coming along and choosing YOU - what a great esteem builder! And again, there is nothing wrong with that, it just has to fit in with what personality type is right for you.

For me, I learned painfully (through my marriage/divorce) and quickly (through dating afterwards) that the outgoing and flirty women were attracted to me because of my stability (and hopefully good looks ), but in time they got bored with me. Moreover, even if they did not get bored with me, their boundaries of interactions with men were totally different than what I would have wanted. That was an issue with my ex and me throughout our marriage. So, since you can't change 'em, I decided to stick to women more like me in that sense - someone who is comfortable with herself, and does not need to be validated by men all the time. Because the reality is I knew that I could not change them, and yet I would not be comfortable "sharing" or having them flirt or be flirted with... So I realized that for me, the more reserved personality type was more appropriate. It was a very big and useful learning experience, because as soon as I started dating the less "exciting" women, I was instantly much happier. In fact, nowdays, when I see those outgoing and flirty women (like my ex ), I tend to shudder, because they truly make me uncomfortable. It just took some looking and trying to see what worked best for me.

I am not saying that the same will work for you, since you are not me . I will however say that flirting (with people other than your partner) is not consistent with the MB philosophy, so that is something that you might really want to evaluate at some point - would PG be comfortable with the "limits" that you think are appropriate in a relationship, EPs, etc.

I know you are worried and somewhat afraid of losing her, and I understand that... But remember, if she decides that you are not the one for her, then most likely she is not the one for you either. It's a two way street, and you want to find someone who will think that you are the cat's meow, and vice versa.

AGG

Schtoop, do you have any updates?

Thanks for checking on me and dragging up this old thread!!!

Not much to update...still doing well.

I'm still seeing Preacher Girl nearly every day and we thoroughly enjoy being together.

Still just taking it as it comes, neither of us ready to jump back into the marriage boat after being on our own a relatively short time. She is still not ready to take on the role of stepmother for younger children, and I don't blame her one bit and the truth is that I'm probably not ready either.

I still think she's the most beautiful, passionate, and fun woman I've ever been with and is certainly someone I would consider marrying and would be proud to call my wife.

Boys are doing well and seem pretty well adjusted to having two households.

Hey Schtoop!!!

Glad to hear things are going well! Thanks for the update.
I wrote Dr. Harley on the show about something that might relate to your situation. I'll put his email response on my thread a little later.
Take care.

opt

Well this forum doesnt get visited to much, so yours wasnt really that far down. Your story interest me because my life is much like yours except i have 4 boys, soon to be full custody and not dating yet.