I like how you pointed out what my life would be like if I stayed with WH. Very bleak and sad indeed. I think the biggest thing that helps me most is knowing that someday soon my two boys will have lives of thier own and fall in love and marry. I DO NOT want them to be the kind of husband to their wives that their father was to me, and his father before him was to his wife(s). I cannot stand here as a grown mature woman and let them think it is "OK' to treat women in this manner. I would be apaulled at either of my DS's if they did to their wives what has happened to me. I want them to respect women, respect me.

I still love the H that was my H before he became WH.

I hurt because I cannot beleive how quickly I was replaced in his life. One day he's here with me (well I now know this has been in deceit for about a month beforehand)being intimate, being 'us', thinking we're doing fine and then the NEXT day he's with her 24/7 and I'm out of his life? Helping her move into her apt, sleeping over, worrying about her upcomming surgery, basically being HER husband! Wanting to be friends with me, give me a break.

Last night I had an interesting chat with an older woman who's son was in rehab twice for drug addiction, now recovering for 10 years. To make a long story short, it seemed to me the BS life is no different then being involved with a drug addict. The lying, deceict, dissapearing acts, promises, promises broken, the fog babble, the blame game, manipulation, telling you what you want to hear, etc...is basically the same. Must we treat the WS as an addict? The addiction being the OP? Cutting the addict off completely from their "comfort zone" seems to work for some, but not all. I guess the best thing to do is prepare myself for "No Recovery".

Yes Mitzie, they are addicts. Basically your WH (like mine) had been looking for his other dose (OW) for the whole 3 years in between affairs. It is interesting to notice that 3 years is what also my H took between affairs.
My gist is that they never recovered the love for us after their first A, and that they kept fantasizing about OWs all the time. They put up a facade with us and plowed thru the years hoping for things to magically get better. Then when they did not, of course they blamed it on us again and finally found another soul mate, this time one that they could leave their family for, a needy b@tch who is as close to trash as possible but who needs their help.
Look, your OW is about to have surgery and is very very needy.
My OW has a health condition and 2 impossible kids who drive her nuts and needs lots and lots of help. So they feel important they feel OW really cherishes them and admires them, makes them feel like real men, really needed.
It boils down to that.
I think.
Blessing

aetna, seriously. I wish you lived by me so we could meet and commiserate! MY WH OW also has 2 impossible teens(girls) & she needs lots & lots help with(driving them around, and school problems ect. fiancially ect.)

She IS needy. Her dad just died, her BS was awful to her(not really, I know him), she has health problems, she has depression problems, she has, she needs,she can't...always drama with her.

But here is the thing. My WH is needy also. Not in the sense like her, but he has emotional needs that I don't think 20 OW could fix, even if they tried all at once! I tried to get help for us, for him. He went a few time until the IC told him what he didn't want to hear, that he was clinically depressed and needed some additional help. He told me to stop my psuedo psycobabble and leave him alone.

Who will help the two needy people? My guess is, since she calls her BS everyday(and he kind of wants her back)and heis stable and has put up with her crap before,it will him she will run back too. That'll be something to wait for.

Its funny you say your WH never recovered from the first A.I was just thinking the same for my WH. I let him back in too soon, his NC with the first OW ended because SHE didn't want to see HIM. She went back to her husband(and still with him-I know cause I checked her on Facebook!!LOL)and broke contact. He has been searching since. Come to think of it, the first OW was needy also, she thought she had throat cancer or something and had to have all these tests done, and she could die, blah, blah,blah. WH never seemed to care about my health issues and didn't want me ringing up medical bills!!

The OW's only family that I know of is her mother and brother. Her father passed away two weeks ago.

I was told that her mother doesn't really care and supports her dau no matter what. I beleive this information is a lie as to protect her mother because of father's death.

I feel OW mother should know what her dau is doing. That she gave her dau thousands of dollars to sign a six month lease on an apt that she is co-habitating (to an extent) with a married man while her granddaughters are also living there.

I do not want to call this woman as I do not have phone number and she just lost her husband of 50 years. She was also a codependent/enabler so I am sure is of frail mindset now.

I could use a public computer and write a letter anonymously? How would I phrase the letter?

My WH I'm sure will know it is me as I wrote letter to his work and exposed first A.

Although I do not beleive OW mother can control or stop her sleazy dau from doing what she is doing, I think she should be told.

Any thoughts?

thanks, Mitzie

Yes she needs to know everything.

Even though I know OW personally I cannot bring myself to say her name. When my WH says her name it makes me upset (I don't show it in front of him though).

I usually just say "her" as in "you said you were going where with her?"

If I use the names I would really like to use when speaking of her, like whore, [censored], homewrecker, slut, skank, skankho, ho, bar slut ect. is that a LB?

Just need to vent some. MIL called today. She wanted to know what was going on. My WH, her son, is very curt and mean on phone to mom & dad. She's worried about the kids. She realizes her husband(my FIL)was wrong to say what he said to me, but he had just had surgery and was in pain and having a bad day...whatever.

She cannot understand WHY her son is acting this way. Seriously? You raised him in an alcoholic home with a violent/mean alcoholic and you expect him to grow up normal?

Anyway, I told her that WH has cut me off from all communication with him. He is curt and quick on the phone with me also, even when discussing things for kids. I told her that when he closes the door he doesn't look back, that door is shut. She agreed and said she saw him do it with the mother of his oldest child(now27). He told her it was over and never spoke to her again! My MIL would pick her granddaugher up from the mother on a Friday and drop her back on Sunday. WH never had to interact with dau mother ever! Even to this day WH NEVER speaks of her, like she never existed, NEVER speaks of dau, like she never existed.

What causes people to be like that? Guilt? Immaturity? Sociopathic personality disorder?

When I asked WH yesterday if his moving day was going to be the 2nd of January, he said he was hoping for the 10th because he didn't know if he could afford it. What the heck? He's the one who brought up divorce, he's the one who comes over, does his laundry, goes on the computer here, spends a little time with the boys then leaves and sleeps at HER house! Does he think I'm just going to let it continue like that? He pays the bills and gets to do what he wants-like sleeping at her house?

The only good I could see comming from that would be being able to implement a good Plan A. But, he cannot be trusted. I think they would be making BIG plans together to screw me over. So I go dark in Plan B. So I never talk to him again. Will I die if I don't talk to him? Probably not. Will I grow as a person and get some self respect back? More than likely yes

Like I said before, I just have a hard time dealing with the fact that one day he's physcially here, acting like my spouse, and the next day he's THERE acting like HER spouse. That is weird. Like he's replaced me, but only with me that used to be me 20 years ago. Does that make sense? She acts now (even though she is 42 with two teen dau)like I used to act when I was in my 20's! I was a fun party girl. I didn't have any responsibilities, I was wild and free, WH and I had a lot of fun and a lot of sex. We were inseperable. It was majical and as a matter of fact we met early November(month out of when BOTH his A's started BTW)and by December we were madly in love.

Should I tell him this? Should I point this out to him, that he's just replaced me with me?

How does Plan B work if other person has totally shut the door on the relationship? It would seem to me better to have them stick around a month or 2 and try a Plan A?

Has anyone ever successfully come through a Plan B when other person is persistant on keepin BS away? I don't beleive absense make the heart grow fonder. I think absense make the heart forget.

Uhhh, Mitzie, given your husband's abandonment of his family, abdication of his responsibilities, and general behavior imitating a rabid goat:

LET'S CERTAINLY HOPE SO !

Stay strong, my friend. Better days are ahead.

"Let it go - this too shall pass", My mom used to tell me this ALL the time!

I hear it in my head a LOT now.

Wish my mom was still around, she gave great advice.

May not have my mom around, but I have all of you here on MB!

Love to you all.

How about just keeping it technically correct and call her "your adultery partner"?

He's stalling about moving out. Kindly and calmly tell him that you expect him to be out by the second. If he asks why, let him know, also calmly and kindly, that you refuse to continue to live with a man who is committing adultery, but that you know the 2 of you can be happy together once she is out of the picture, and he has dealt with his addiction.

He's likely to be very angry at being crossed, so do not allow yourself to be drawn into further argument. Simply repeat, "I expect you to be out of this house by Jan 2." Then walk away and do not engage in any form.

Two big "do nots":

1. DO NOT LET HIM CALL THE SHOTS OF WHEN HE WILL LEAVE. HE IS CHEATING AND ABUSING ALCOHOL, HE NEEDS TO MOVE OUT NOW. HE WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY STALL IF YOU LET HIM.

2. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME ON PLAN A. THIS WILL ONLY HARDEN HIM IN HIS CURRENT COURSE BECAUSE HE HAS A SUBSTANCE ADDICTION IN ADDITION TO THE A. SIMPLY RUN A GOOD HOUSEHOLD AS YOU NORMALLY WOULD, AVOID LOVEBUSTERS, AND GET HIM OUT OF YOUR HOUSE.

My own recommendation is that you have him move out now, Christmas or no Christmas. His double addiction is crazy-making for you. Until you have some time and space to heal, you won't even begin to realize how damaged you are right now.

The sooner you get your time and space, the sooner you can begin to heal. That is what I want most for you.

NEAK, YOU GIVE THE BEST ADVICE EVER!!! YOU SHOULD HAVE A TV SHOW!

I have told him he should leave NOW. It's too weird for the three of us here with him popping in and out. He just says he has no where to go. I tell him, go stay with her. He says he can't. I ask why. He just says he can't. My guess is the kids will tell their dad that mom has a dude staying there and goodbye child support. Next time I tell him(prob today if I see him)I will drop that on him, I'm sure that's the reason. Well too bad. Of course he's been to an ATTY and knows he doesn't have to leave. I guess I could ask him to not drop by at all. He won't do that.

It should be interesting the week of Christmas he goes on 11pm-7am shift. He will sleep there, but where? On the sleeper sofa? She has 4 rooms, two are bedrooms, a living room and kitchen & bath. I don't see him getting much sleep. I always made sure the bed was made and the curtins drawn so it was nice and dark and he felt like he was actually going to bed. I would have a nice pot of coffee on when he woke up so he would feel like it was morning. That week we usually had breakfast for dinner nights, bacon/eggs, breakfast stuff. Betcha she won't do that!

***INSERT HERE: BROOKS & DUNN SONG: YOUR GONNA MISS ME*** boo hoo!


Yes he is stalling. I don't kid myself for one second that it's because he wants to stay. I know it's about money. Almost everything about the man revolves around HIS MONEY.

The one thing is now at night it is much calmer around here. Most nights I work pretty late, but it's nice to know that the boys don't have to see their drunk dad stumble in the door and I don't have to worry about him drinking and driving or worse having an A!(it's already out there!)

I'm off to see the dentist. Time to get my teeth capped while I still have insurance!!! SMILES EVERYONE! SMILES!

I believe the legal term is "paramour". That is how my lawyer defined her in the court documents. "(WH) has gone to live with his paramour, "POSOW name" at 0000 Bulls__t Drive, Loser, MN". It gave me a great deal of satisfaction to see her forever listed in court documents as the skankho she is. All I could think was, "Wouldn't her parents be proud!" (unfortunately I had no way to contact parents and friends for exposure).

It is not false modesty, but just the simple truth that I've been hanging out with the best for going on 7 years by now - some of it was bound to rub off.

Do you own your own home? Rent? It may be hard to get him out, but where there's a will there's a way. You leaving is the absolute last choice, when all else has failed.

There are plenty of things to try first.

WH took son to buy a car. Son & WH forgot license plate so returned home shortly after I did. Here is a recap of conversation that took place:

WH: I have to come back anyway to get some clothes (for work tomorrow)
ME: You should just get your clothes now, no need to come back here
WH: WHY? (in accusing voice)
ME: There really isn't any reason to come back
WH: Why? (accusing tone, like I'm up to something - Well, duh, PLAN B)
ME: You should probably just take all your clothes now. You should just live with her.
WH: (shakes head scrunches face)
ME: Really, why won't you just stay there until your place is ready?
WH: No (shakes head)
ME: Is it because she'll lose her child support
WH: She didn't lose her CS when she lived with BS that has nothing to do with CS
ME: (realizing this is corret) OH YEAH, your right. Then why won't you just stay there. It's just too painful for
me to have you here and then know that you go sleep with her. I really think you should just take your clothes
stay there until your place is ready.

He walks into bedroom, starts gathering his clothes for work tomorrow.

ME: You will never guess who I ran into while I was out. (told him who it was. A very dear friend who lives down the
road and belongs to the social club)WH: Yeah, what did she have to say
ME: Well not much and a lot. She said she thought you were doing a stupid thing (LB? shouldn't have told him that?)

Then I told him how really hurt I was. That I was just starting to trust him. He told me I wasn't. I asked him how long he
and OW were conspiring behind my back. He said he wasn't conspiring. I told him that I was his wife and I was not consulted
in his affair. I asked him if he fell in love with her on [night he never came home & took her to the hospital], he said no. I
asked him if it was when he had sex with her, he repied "NO!" He didn't say he loved her, but he didn't say he wasn't in love with her either.There was more back and forth about not caring about how I feel, to which he replied "I DO care how you feel." Then I called the OW some nasty names, told him he was going to be sorry (LB?). Told him she was telling him everything he wanted to hear, but the truth was she's cheated on every guy she's been with.
He fluffed it off, saying I didn't know what I was talking about, and should not be listening to her BS.
Conversation in hallway:

ME: What's going on, really, WH?
WH: What do you mean?
ME: What's going on with this whole situation? You can't stay here and you can't stay there, what are you going to do?
WH: Kill myself
ME: Seriously, your the one that wanted this
WH: (shakes head)
ME: So you don't want a divorce?
WH: I never said that
ME: Then you DO want a divorce?
WH: (silence)(shrugs shoulders) yeah
ME: Good to know. At least now I know where I stand

WH puts clothes in bag, puts on table. Walks into bathroom. Downstairs in kitchen, I'm emptying dishwasher, he comes in.
I tell him: "WH, always know this, I love you, I will probably always love you. But, this isn't good. I'm too hurt. I would probably take you back in a heartbeat if you came back (the words fell out of my mouth too fast. He shut the door to the garage and left before I could say but there are things that would have be done before that. So he left thinking I would take him back anytime!)

So there you have it. I don't think he will pack his clothes and go. I think he will just avoid me. I hope Plan B soothes my soul.

I have a lot to say after reading that, but I have to get ready for class, so no time to dissect.

I will just say, some of that was good, some was not good. You can learn from it all without beating yourself up about any mistakes. They're a learning tool, not a bludgeon.

In short, although some of the things you said were good, overall you're bogging down in fruitless arguments and discussions. You can't reason with him, so you might as well give up trying. Fog responses can be lots of fun, though.

You know you can't go to Plan B till he's out of the house, right?

Tell me Neak, oh I do so want to hear your wise wisdom!

Yes, I know I can't do Plan B until he's out of the house.

Remember, I didn't do Plan B when first A occured. I used exposure, got OW fired and she ended A with WH. SHE had NC w/him. He was living with a friend down the road and then I let him come back home. That was dumb of me.

In talking with WH, We looked at each other intently for probably a minute, what to say in a moment like that? I don't know if he was waiting for me to say something. It was almost like he wanted me to say something derogatory, or tell him he was scum.

Tell me how I should have reverse babbled my way through convo.

The road was too icy to make it to class, so now AJ and I are home with no children. I'll check in with you tomorrow.

Last night when DS came home from going with WH to pick up his new car, DS said he thought his dad seemed sad. That was around 8pm.

I had a really bad URGE last night to get in my car and drive past the bar to see if he was there, if not, then drive past her house.

I heard a song in my head for some reason. Beatles, Let It Be.
"whisper words of wisdom, let it be". Song always had a special meaning to me because my mom's name was Mary. "Mother Mary sings to me, whisper words of wisdom, let it be".

I did not go. Got PJ's on, got ready for bed.

Kinda proud of myself.

WH: I have to come back anyway to get some clothes (for work tomorrow)
ME: Why not just get your clothes now, and take them with you?
WH: WHY? (in accusing voice)
ME: You're moving out in a few days. It will be easier if you don't have to take everything at once.
WH: Why? (accusing tone, like I'm up to something - Well, duh, PLAN B)
ME: Because I will not continue to live with you while you are committing adultery and drinking.
WH: I'm not leaving.
ME: I expect you to be gone by [fill in the date]. Would you like some hot chocolate to take with you?
~ End of conversation, do not re-engage. ~


That was a very good answer.

The rest of it, I kind of feel like you were following him around, bringing up different subjects that were bound to take a sour turn. Far better to be nearby, working on something and humming happily, not pushing R-talk or A-talk.

His suicide comment was most likely drama trying to get a rise out of you. This will have to be totally up to your judgment at the time, as obviously if he is making serious threats of suicide, and planning how to carry it out, you should call 911 and have the sheriff or police 5150 him.

If you sense it's merely more drama, consider calmly saying something like, "More likely you'll end up paralyzed, not dead. I wonder if OW will take care of you the rest of your life if you were paralyzed? Changing your diapers - how romantic." And change the subject. He knows good and well OW wouldn't sign on for that.

But again, if at any point you are even concerned he might be serious, call law enforcement and let them deal with it. Don't take any chances.

So basically, don't bring up the A or your M except on rare occasions. Far better to wait for him to give you the occasional opening to fog response, and talk about fluffy stuff instead.