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You can counterfile in Virginia for adultery, which does get taken into consideration!

Use this to your advantage!

Good luck with Plan B.

The only thing is that you may need to change lawyers to a VA one if your lawyer isn't licensed in VA. But it will be well worth it.

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Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
You can counterfile in Virginia for adultery, which does get taken into consideration!

Use this to your advantage!

MJ, as of now, you are officially on defense in the courtroom. Very few football games are won solely by the defense, typically, you want to get your offense on the field as soon as possible and keep it there. If you have a chance to counter this by filing for divorce on the grounds of adultry, I'd dang sure do that and get your defense off the field.

I know you're wanting to hold out hope but you also have to be prepared for what could come. Maybe the thought of a long drawn out messy divorce is the wake up call she needs. If nothing else, doing this NOW would put you in the best possible position for negotiations when it comes to terms of the divorce. And despite what you see on TV, the majority of stuff ends up being negotiated in a divorce. So I guess you have to ask yourself, do you want to be on offense or defense? Personally, I think being on offense gives you the most power to end up with a settlement that is benificial to you when it comes to the kiddo's. If you're not wanting maximum time with them then play defense......


Hugz, Thoughtz, & Prayerz

Bill
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It�s a whole new ball game when D papers are filed. Many men, I�ll go so far as to say that most men, play this game very poorly. They give in on most things and most demands because there is this unrealistic holdout of hope that this is all just crazy and that she�ll return.

It isn�t going to happen through appeasement. It only happens through hardball.

The master of this was Mortarman. He played bigtime hardball with his WW in the courtroom and she realized, deep into the process, that not everything was going to go her way and that she was going to lose a significant amount of time with the kids.

The fog lifted and they are in recovery years later. He saved his marriage. Not by appeasing the WW but by doing everything to make the D difficult and by fighting for his kids.

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Let me get to the legal questions and the vets' comments later. For now, I will quote WW's latest email to me:

Quote
I will not have the girls dropped off at the babysitters, then picked up 15 minutes later by me. That is confusing for them, and exactly what I told you I was not willing to do. This is an untenable, unacceptable solution. I am also not willing to accept that you won't answer the phone while the girls are in your care. This is also exactly what I said I would not agree to.

I'm never going through a third party unless it's a court-appointed representative. IM should expect no emails from me.

Please send me your flight information for your trip with the girls to [your home state].

I will pick the girls up at your home on Tuesday, Dec. 28th, at noon.

I don't want The Alien coming to my place anymore. It's too painful and degrading. Would I run into any legal trouble by dropping the kids off at daycare for WW to pick them up?

-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10

Last edited by MichaelJan; 12/17/10 10:17 PM.
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I know that Plan B, like Plan A, is all action and little thought. But understanding the mindset of The Selfish One, and waywards in general, is helpful to me. She has filed for legal separation, and her lawyer's cover letter that this was "relative to your impending divorce." So why does WW insist on talking with me and seeing me? Is she cake eating or just trying to control me? ... Something tells me it's the latter.

-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10


Last edited by MichaelJan; 12/17/10 10:22 PM.
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IMVHO, yes, not talking to her about child related issues and not allowing for a civil drop off will hurt you legally if you are trying to get anything more than every other weekend. The court will see that if y'all have to interact more (ie more drop offs) that it is harmful to the kids with such drama. The reality is you're heading for divorce. You need to prepare for that. If by some chance your marriage gets saved, that's a bonus but you have to prepare for reality. Right now, it looks like to me, that your sacrificing toorrow to prove a point today. And as I said earlier your totally on defense.


Hugz, Thoughtz, & Prayerz

Bill
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Hi MJ.

Well, I can't really say that I am surprised that your ww has filed for sep, or that you are that surprised either. It may be a serious goal for her, or may be a ploy to try to control or test you, or a combination of the two - who really knows. IMHO the main thing right now is for you to be intensely prepared for the worst emotionally and legally. And, in my opinion, I would definitely at least get legal advice on the question you posed above, MJ, regarding the exchanges. I feel the answer to your question lies between your ww's demands and your requirements. I.e., a mutually agreeable exhange point - her place, a relative's or friend's place, whatever IS necessary. On other hand, I feel her demand for you to be available to her on the phone or whatever whenever she chooses to talk with you is total bunk! To communicate with her or not, except in case of an emergencey involving your kids (as stated by Helpforlostdads) is YOUR choice. I am not an attorney of course, nor have I gone thru this - just my gut feeling. That is why I feel you need local legal opinion at this point. You should explain to the attorney exactly what Plan B (no communication except thru an IM) means from the MB standpoint, and why you have implemented it (in view of her adultery.

I just feel MJ, that the lack of confidence by not taking the initiative legally (however you can swing it financially) causes you to be more susceptable to her whims.

Please look at it this way MJ - you are not only fighting to regain your lost love, your lost ww from a scum of an opponent (the OM and the affair), you are fighting to protect your nuclear family - the most important element of society. I know you realize this, but thought a reminder would be good at this point. A football team does not strive to win only for the edification of the individual players, it strives to win for the fans as well. W/o them the games and the strife would be meaningless. In a way, your 'fans' are your kids. Please don't disappoint them, and yourself by proceding with an imcomplete game plan.

Whew! Just wanted to give you a half-time speech!

Take care....

Tom

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A quick update: I exchanged the kids without seeing WW last week. She insisted on exchanging the kids the usual way: she comes over to my apartment and I present the girls to her. I insisted on the new way: dropping the kids off at the baby sitters and NOT seeing her. She complied. After I dropped the girls off, the baby sitter called her, and she picked them up.

-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10

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In case people are interested, below are some of the terms that my WW seeks in the separation agreement:

1. joint legal and joint physical custody

2. From now until DD3.5 goes to kindergarten in the fall of 2012, the same visitation schedule: I get them from Thursday evening until 2 or 7 p.m. every other Saturday.

3. Once DD3.5 starts kindergarten, I would get the kids every other weekend from Friday evening till Sunday evening AND one night per work week from after school until 7 p.m. AND two non-consecutive weeks of summer vacation with me.

4. I pay her an extra $275 a month to cover half of our expenses, such as day care and credit card dues.

I don't like #2,3, and 4, and I will fight them. Once DD3.5 begins school, I would like to get the kids two whole weeks a month. Driving her to school won't be a big problem. I'd much rather see and spend time with her. As for the extra $269 a month, I'm not going for this either. If WW wants the kids 4.5 days out of the week, she will have to pay for it. I want to see the girls more often, not less often.

In any event, I am sending the separation agreement back to her lawyer and not signing anything. I will talk with my lawyer or get a new one.

-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10

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Originally Posted by MichaelJan
In case people are interested, below are some of the terms that my WW seeks in the separation agreement:

1. joint legal and joint physical custody

2. From now until DD3.5 goes to kindergarten in the fall of 2012, the same visitation schedule: I get them from Thursday evening until 2 or 7 p.m. every other Saturday.

3. Once DD3.5 starts kindergarten, I would get the kids every other weekend from Friday evening till Sunday evening AND one night per work week from after school until 7 p.m. AND two non-consecutive weeks of summer vacation with me.

4. I pay her an extra $275 a month to cover half of our expenses, such as day care and credit card dues.

I don't like #2,3, and 4, and I will fight them. Once DD3.5 begins school, I would like to get the kids two whole weeks a month. Driving her to school won't be a big problem. I'd much rather see and spend time with her. As for the extra $269 a month, I'm not going for this either. If WW wants the kids 4.5 days out of the week, she will have to pay for it. I want to see the girls more often, not less often.

In any event, I am sending the separation agreement back to her lawyer and not signing anything. I will talk with my lawyer or get a new one.


Keep fighting, make this divorce h*ll for her, do not settle for anything less what you want! She thinks she's gunna get everything? HA let her think again laugh

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MJ.

It is so good to see you back here now. I realize you may not have been in either the mood or postion to comment here in the last few weeks, but good for you. And, good for you that you are refusing to accept your WW's demands! As I calculate, her proposed schedule would mean you would have your daughters 9 or so days per month. Wow.

I hope that you will be both understanding of and receptive of any advice you may now get from the veterans here. I know you have gone thru quite alot. I do have to say tho that it seems you are taking charge.

The best,

Tom

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Thanks, Sapphire. I appreciate the encouragement.

I'm not going to be aggressive with her, which is exactly how she wants me to act (besides being passive). I'll just be assertive and fight for my family.

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MJ,

I want to suggest the following schedule, which was recommended to me by my former lawyer.

Monday and Tuesday with one parent.

Wednesday and Thursday with the other.

Alternate weekends.

This is good for several reasons, though it sounds like a lot at first.

The biggest thing it provides is predictability. This will allow you to schedule events or things for yourself on the nights you don't have your kids and those nights stay consistent.

The kids will have a predictable schedule growing up, which will help them in terms of predictability. Kids associate certain things with parents. For example (for down the road), Monday nights is Monday night Football night with Dad while Thursday nights are American Idol night with mom.

My lawyer explained that stability and predictability like this is very important for a kid and that this schedule gives you that.

It also keeps you more involved in school. It's tough to stay as engaged when you don't see them during weekdays.

It also allows you to schedule the kids for out of school activities on the nights you have them.

Trust me, that is a big thing once they get older. My ex won't sign my kids up for stuff and I don't have the power to sign them up for anything on "her" time. So the kids sit in a daycare till 6:30 every night as a result.

When your WW gives you such a crap schedule, stay very calm. I use to get very upset. The fact is that the courts will give you a fair shake if you are a good dad. So simply turn down her offers politely.

If anything, turn the tables on her and suggest that her proposed schedule is a good one for HER to have.

Privately to her you should tell her that you will seek primary custody on the grounds of adultery.

Privately, know this: the courts don't care about her adultery. Short of her being a crack whore that has sex with other men while the kids are in the bedroom, the courts don't care.

Don't waste your money arguing stupid things like how often she brushes their teeth and that she puts on the wrong sized pajamas on them and feeds them cake and ice cream for dinner every night. The court doesn't care about such things.

They care about big stuff. If the court has an impression that you're both equally good parents, then you can expect to get equal time.

Are the kids primarily with you right now?

Is she out of the house? I'll re-read some of your recent posts just to catch up, but make sure that if she moves away from your school district that you note that SHE is the one who moved, not you.

Keep the faith, my friend, and get yourself some very good books out there. I recommend "Father's Rights".

But don't get worked up. It's easy to say, but I got waaaay too worked up in my own case. It was mostly out of fear that they would believe every crazy claim she made about me. That's not the case at all.

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help,

Thanks for your detailed post. You helped me.

Considering my ridiculous circumstances, I like your schedule. It's predictable and reliable. It would allow me to see my daughters during the week and weekend. That's good. I see them only 2.5 days a week now.

So your kids sit in daycare till 6:30? I'm sorry. What a waste. But you must be a good father. The same thing happens to my kids. They sit in daycare till 6 or 6:30 on Fridays when my WW lives down the block from them.

WW moved out in the fall of '09.

I will look for "Father's Rights."

I told her in the summer that if she filed, I would counter file on grounds of adultery. She huffed and puffed like the big bad wolf but didn't do anything.

One thought that's occurred to me: how to handle my reaction to her lawyer if he calls me. My gut tells me to impugn his character -- you know, he's representing an adulterous woman and helping break up a family. But my head wonders whether I'm wasting my breath on him.

-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10

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Originally Posted by MichaelJan
One thought that's occurred to me: how to handle my reaction to her lawyer if he calls me. My gut tells me to impugn his character -- you know, he's representing an adulterous woman and helping break up a family. But my head wonders whether I'm wasting my breath on him.
MichaelJan, I have never posted to you before, so excuse me if this seems out of place, but here's my tidbit of advice about the lawyer. It's in the form of a saying:

Quote
Worry is like paying interest on a debt you may never owe.
Deal with it if and when it happens. You have the high (moral) ground. That's all you need to know.


Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words.
St. Francis of Assissi
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Quote
One thought that's occurred to me: how to handle my reaction to her lawyer if he calls me. My gut tells me to impugn his character -- you know, he's representing an adulterous woman and helping break up a family. But my head wonders whether I'm wasting my breath on him.
Yes, MJ, you'll be wasting your breath on him. He's heard it a million times before.

My question is WHY her lawyer is contacting you? Do you not have an attorney to cover your interests? Are you not is a position to be ready to counter-sue for adultery?


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Originally Posted by MichaelJan
help,
One thought that's occurred to me: how to handle my reaction to her lawyer if he calls me. My gut tells me to impugn his character -- you know, he's representing an adulterous woman and helping break up a family. But my head wonders whether I'm wasting my breath on him.

This shows that you don't understand the law, which is ok. I didn't either.

He can't contact you directly. Things have to be filed in court and the only reason he would possibly interact with you is in the context of legal proceedings.

You can't take anything lawyers do personally. I did and it was a mistake.

The truth is that they're hired to fulfill their clients wishes to the best of their abilities and to advise their clients.

Family law lawyers don't care if the client is an adulterer or anything else. They've heard it all before.

Experienced ones will try to get you to settle out of court and craft a fairly equitable agreement.

Your own lawyer might ask you to settle as well.

The reality is that fathers who do well are ones who don't settle.

I would encourage you not to settle for anything else than 50/50. If that is put up for settlement, then take it. Odds are low you'd get better in court and you could very well get worse.

A 50/50 arrangement often means no CS for you. That's not your motivation, but it's a side benefit.

Your WW would truly be on her own.

Deal with a lawyer as you would with any professional. That's the key to family law as a dad. Be above the fray. You must be James Bond, especially when dealing with a lawyer.

If you attack the lawyer, it will reflect badly on you.

It's easier said than done, but you can't take anything personally.

I'll give you an example of a mistake I made. My ex's lawyer was attempting to get a rise out of me while negotiating outside the courtroom. He succeeded.

He said, at one point when I wasn't taking the settlement offers they were making, that perhaps I'd feel better if my children were dead.

I blew up at him and his comment really angered me. I blew up at him to the point where the bailiff came out of the courtroom to tell me to calm down. Big mistake.
I ran it by my IC. She told me the better response would have been to act shocked and appalled and incredulous that someone would say something like that. That would have made HIM look like the POS he was. Instead, he got me ticked off and my outburst could have really cost me in my case.

It didn't. But that's the lawyers job. Especially against men. They want to get under your skin, get a rise out of you, and portray you as a short fused man who is clearly not worthy of having custody. In fact, your wife needs protection from you and you should only have supervised visitation.

That's what his job will be.

So the secret is to not engage in the game. Answer questions truthfully and professionally and remain cool at all times.

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maritalbliss writes,

Quote
My question is WHY her lawyer is contacting you? Do you not have an attorney to cover your interests? Are you not is a position to be ready to counter-sue for adultery?

I have a lawyer. My WW knows that. However, I may find another lawyer, who would be more affordable.

Following the lead of others on the MB site, I am attempting to drag out her legal maneuvers. I haven't even returned the documents to her lawyer yet. The longer I wait, the more difficult it is on her bizarro A with her AP and the likelier it is that reality will prevail.

My WW filed for legal separation. In Virginia, a person can't file for legal separation on the grounds of adultery; only for divorce can he or she. And I won't file for D first. Now if she files for D, I will counter-file on the grounds of adultery. Does that make sense?


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Quote
I have a lawyer. My WW knows that. However, I may find another lawyer, who would be more affordable.
The attorneys are the ones who should be communicating. Her attorney should not be in direct contact with you. He knows that. I don't understand why her attorney isn't talking to your attorney?

So give the separation agreement to your attorney at the last minute and tell him to pull it on the bottom of his out box.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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According to DD3.5, my WW is buying a house or condo. She mentioned that they had seen the house. She's not even 4 years old, so details were sketchy.

My main question is this: Does owning property help a spouse in a custody dispute?

-----------------------------------------------
Me: BH, 40 (and no longer jobless; just broke)
Her: WW, 33
Never lived together
Married 6 years; together 10 years
2 young kids (DD3.5 and DD1.8)
Her EA: Fall '08
She moves out of our home: 10/16/09
Informally separated
D-day: 01/22/10
D-day #2: 06/28/10
Exposed to 12 of my WW's and the OM's friends and family members plus all of my immediate family members and some extended family
In plan A at Dr. Bill Harley's advice since May '10; about to go to Plan B
Have talked with lawyer twice; hate it
Her region is a 50/50 custody area
OM stopped working with her 08/10
Wife asks lawyer for legal separation 12/10

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