Hello.
Lets just say my H is going to IC and we go to MC together. Our current MC knows about MB but uses many types of techniques.

He is going to IC, that I am thankful for, but I feel the IC is overriding the M advice.

His consept of "standing up for himself" sometimes overrides me. He just does not seem to care.

He walks away from any argument not going his way (to a ridiculous degree). There is never any resolution..

He proudly states; "I am standing up for myself".
"I am being honest and telling you my feelings."
"I am going to walk away from this conversation".

Which sounds very noble and good. How are you going to solve hard marital issues if you cant have the hard conversations?
any ideas?

Individual counselling is about putting yourself first. It isn't about finding a way to build a marriage - i.e. a relationship involving two people. It is about ONE person. IC is almost inevitably in conflict with MC, which is about becoming interdependent and always taking the other person's feelings into account.

Is your H's commitment to IC so entrenched that he will not give it up?

Could your MC explain to him the conflict that the IC is causing?

Standing up for himself, eh?

Codependency approach much?

Barbie, IC interferes with marriages in that it encourages independent behavior rather than the interdependant behavior that creates happy marriages. Independent behavior is a HUGE lovebuster as you have discovered. He is being taught to make decisions without taking your feelings into account, which leads to incompatibility.

From what you describe, a better solution for your marriage would be to learn the POJA which would involve making decisions that make you BOTH happy and benefit the marriage.

Thank you all for the reply. I know the IC is based on the self and one person immprovement, but I am supportive of him going.

Without giving details he really needed to go. I do not want to crush his good intentions, (beleive-u-me, he is showing positive behaviors now that are helpful.)

I know I have read other people who have done counseling (both IC and M), I wonder how they reconciled conflicting advice.

I would hate the first true positive behaviors I see (now I am not 100% at fault all the time, I am only at fault 84%) ;-)

Here is an example. I know that you are "in charge of your own happiness", but I contend that your spouse's behaviors and actions affects your "happiness", too.

small example, but a conflict.

HHH;
what?

"Put the marriage first" would seem to be simple advice that would make sure nobody benefits at anybody else's expense.

Another good policy to follow would be to always grant each other the right to say "Can we negotiate this?"

AGree. Putting the marriage first results in the greatest happiness for both. Historically, IC causes problems in marriages because it puts the idividual before the marriage, which conflicts with the goal of compatibility.

It depends on the background.

"I am standing up for myself" could mean:
A) You always get your way and I am going to take a stand for what I want for a change.
B) I think I am right and I like to win the argument at all cost.
C) I want my input to truly be taken into account and come up with a win-win solution.

"I am being honest and telling you my feelings."
A) I have not felt comfortable ever telling you my true feelings before because you don't provide a safe emotional environment.
B) I am saying what I want and I don't care if it hurts you.
C) I am trying to be Open and Honest.


"I am going to walk away from this conversation".
A) I feel that you are using Disrespectful Judgments/Angry Outburts on me and I want to remove myself so I don't do the same.
B) I don't like what you are saying so I am taking my marbles and going home.
C) I feel that we are not making constructive progress so I would like to defuse the emotional tension so we can address this issue again.

Being bipolar, I have received IC from time to time. But I have always made it very clear that any "guidance" that would be contrary to a good happy marriage is guidance I don't want. I had one counselor begin to try to explore the idea of leaving DH due to a couple of big issues, and I simply said, "I will not be leaving DH. He is my H."

There are some psychiatric issues that need IC from time to time, but I would make sure that any marriage-unfriendly advice was firmly shut out. When I go now, it is just do get meds looked at.

IC is risky business.

But it is my reality. I cant say "I don't like this", nor would I even want to.

Our MC is fine with IC,
But she has asked that we share any readings/info with each other.
I send him MB all the time! sure!
I found a 8 disc CD set about marriage that I liked and I shared, and I sign up for a weekly newsletter that I forward to him every week too.

I know that he has "assignments", I have seen notes but did not read them.... he complains that he is reading a lot of books.
He has not shared one flipping thing back.

He maintains that he wants the M. Will say it all the time.

But now he is putting himself first, saying things like;
"If I can't take care of myself, I can't take care of anyone else."

"I am making myself happy, because you are the only person you can make yourself happy."

That sounds good in writing but in reality I get shut out and ignored a lot. That is how I feel.

I usually let that slide right off.

It sounds like he is using advice to meet his agenda. Lots of people do that. A good IC would clarify what "making myself happy" means in the context of M.

Have you considered calling his IC? My DH has full permission from me to get any info he needs from my docs.

I mean, where does common sense and balance come in?

Even Dr. H says that no one should sacrafice yourself for a relationship.
I also know that my H has been at counseling about 4 months. This is new to him. He has never admitted that he had any problems before, (It was always everyone elses fault)

at least now he is looking at "fixing himself"

before compromise was pointless

Thaks T
No, It is not medical issue.

He therapist is a MSW, not a doctor. I have serious issues with social workers ( please no offense MBrs).

It seems the ones I know are all doctor wannabees.

But he seems to like her. He has stopped quite a bit of the passive agressive antagonising.

So at first I thought things were going to go well. Maybe it will.
Tuesday I have another MC appointment. I will try to bring up the fact he apparently ignores MC advice in favor of "self improvement".

Ahhhhhhh....social worker/counselor. That makes sense. My first counselor was a SW who worked at the area Mental Health center (it was free for teachers). Yeah, there was a lot of practical coping and empowering and stuff....which would have been great if I was an indigent abused woman. But it wasn't what I needed really.

Ugh. It's hard to navigate marriage/personal stuff/growing/changing/self-care/caring for your spouse sometimes, isn't it? Is there a way you think you could broach to him that you are so glad he is looking at himself and his life but you still want to be a team? I know it probably feels like a tightrope.

(((barbiecat)))

I see, this is difficult. My H & I went to IC & MC as well. The cool thing about it was that it was a husband & wife team who do IC & MC together, and talk about the cases together (w/your consent of course), so nothing is hidden, and, they'll ask you about bringing in some issues from the IC into the MC as well, because they know ultimately what happens in IC will affect MC. My H also sused the advice to his advantage - why? Well, two major components were/(and are, as he ceased to go to IC, 3 sessions were enough for him, or so he says. Now he blames everything about himself on "our" marriage... nice.) co-dependency and als othe fact that he was & is hurting, and wants a "safe" place to "share" (or now, as I have found out, to hide) what it is that he wants to share. Many people do this, especially if they are unfamiliar with IC and/or MC. I feel that both need to happen, so that each of you has accountability to a party outside of family/friends/etc.. that can have a true objective point of view & whom you allow to kick you in the rear-end if need be. I hope you can seek out the kind of IC & MC where they co-incide & also share vital information that will ultimately influence your marriage. MB's techniques, counseling, & help do all of those things as well. Hence, why I am here ;-)

He has gotten better talking to her. Really, she is sort of a former hippie type that had him doing meditation. ( yikes!!)
better than the emotionally distant engineer, who was very, very angry (but would not admit this)

Actually I liked the meditation class.

I don't even know what they talk about, but the few time I met her, she gave rapid fire excuses on my H's behalf. It did not sound like any accountability was happening at all to me.

I have asked for the "info" she is having him read. Nomoremrnice guy (now she claims that was not her idea, but his)
and Dr. Phil.
Not joking.

May I add this is costing $240 a week. Most covered by insurance, tho.

Thanks, L;
but he really seems to like her. But I feel she has diagnosed him and me bytheway, as ...drumroll please.... codependant!

My 25+ year experenced PhD. MC does not believe in labels like this- thinks they get in the way of recovery.

I like/don't like or MC (she does set ya back on yer azz in your thinking once in awhile)- but I think she is smart and has good positive expereince with MC.

I laid out all my concerns today. In a polite/ non judgemental way as I could. My point, if we are not going to follow MC acvice, why are we going?
She sees it as a who is in control thinkg... but did agree that we have to decide what we want and really commit ourselves to recovery.

Well, get your 2x4 ready.

I have decided I can not stand his counselor.
I feel she is diagnosing not only him but me (by what he says)

I do not beleive she is qualified to "diagnose".
I don't care what she thinks I am. I wish his counseling was about him, not "changing" me. But this is what he takes away from the meetings, maybe not what she says.

She is an older "hippie" type, and the temptation to call her counselor "huff and puff".

How, when I am having pop terms tossed at me, do I not LB back?
He seems to get real upset that I do not like her (I only met her 5 times at meditation class). Well, I do not.

MC says to exchange information that we are receiving, how do you do that when it angers you? He feels I flood him with MB (hehe) and I get nothing back.