I agree.

My appointment is tomorrow morning (my time obviously).

Another suggestion, Chris,
Dr Harley and his wife have a radio show. If you can't call in, you can also send in an email and I think they answer some emails on the show. You can listen in on the internet, either live or archive.

I thought this would be a good topic for him since Dr. Harley has a background in addiction and you have gotten different advice about tackling the addiction vs infidelity issues. I would love to hear his thoughts on this.

Chris,

Former AF pilot here. My WXW had poor boundaries with other men as well. There was no one specific OM. There were several she flirted with online through social networking.

What happened? She emotionally checked out of our marriage, used the internet to go on dates with men, got physical with one of them.

That's the path you're on.

You need an intervention to deal with this addiction because that is exactly what it is and it's going to take something massive to stop this.

Intervene through cutting off the internet and putting passwords on your computer, but you have a very serious problem on your hands and something drastic has to happen. You have a lawsuit waiting to happen when someone else's kid gets hurt because she was off playing a game while she was supposed to be watching them.

Um, because substance/behavioral abuse and substance/behavioral addiction are both different physiologically and in how they are treated. An ADDICT is a physiologically different person than an ABUSER.

Fun fact; YOU DON'T GET TO DEFINE IT.

If she is an ABUSER - then if Chris is able to restore his marriage, the game could be gone and the risk would be over

If she is is an ADDICT - Chris could very well be facing the risk of her experiencing transference to ANOTHER ADDICTION.



Chris isn't being honest with the board - he's got his own LB behavior to own up to here. He is willing and ready to tell us everything SHE is doing wrong, and provide evidence to support his fight against her, but he isn't entirely owning his own poop. He posts up a moticom of his own LB behaviors in the conversation, and then everyone demon-hunts the WW and ignores what he is doing. Hello? If your H/W spoke to you in that manner RIGHT NOW you would flip. BOTH sides of these exchanges are toxic.

Additionally, because of how the group-think on this board operates - everyone is all up-in-arms about the OM situation - or all up in arms about this or that - all ready to bicker blah blah blah...

Ok Chris - how long has this OM situation been going on?

The GAME has been going on, by your admission, for 6 years; THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF YOUR MARRIAGE.

Has she played like this THE ENTIRE TIME, or only since the OM came into the picture?

Has she ever suffered from depression?

You know this isn't what Dr H says about addiction, right? It has been said his plans don't work on someone who has an active addiction. Again, I would love to hear whether Dr H thinks this is an addiction and whether the same theory applies (addictive behavior vs substance addiction)...

Is this pattern of behaviour recognised by experts in the field?

Is it a medically-recognised fact that alcoholics who stop drinking transfer their addiction to something else?

Has it been extensively documented that "abusers" - e.g. sexual abusers - give up their abuse if other aspects of their lives are repaired?

Where can we read more about these patterns of behaviour, and the distinctions between addicts and abusers? Where do you get your information?

How can you tell that he "isn't being honest with the board? What knowledge do you have about Chris's behaviour that isn't written here?

As for demon-hunting the WW and ignoring Chris: how is encouraging Chris to stop his wife's wayward behaviour "demon hunting"? If that is what we are doing on this thread, then recognising the wrong of betrayal and the abuse of infidelity is always "demon hunting". If that's the case, then Dr Harley should not have set up his anti-infidelity programme, and society in general should not see adultery as a serious wrong.

Shouldn't they be? Is infidelity not so bad that we need to get up in arms about OM situations?

HHH, for some reason you are trying to persuade this board that Chris's wife's behaviour isn't all that bad. According to you:

-She is not an addict; she is an abuser, and the cure for that is for Chris to do a better job of meeting her ENs.

-Chris is not being honest with the board about his LB behaviours.

-Chris's wife is being demonised by this board. We are up in arms about the OM situation because of group-think.

All this is being said about a man who is serving in a war while his wife spends 6-10 hours per day gaming, while somewhat neglecting their children.

I like the idea of Chris emailing Dr. Harley for advice on the radio show. I too would be interested to know what his advice would be.

I don't believe that Chris is being dishonest. I do, however, believe he is unaware of his own love busting behavior. His wife needs to make some changes, but so does he.

You know what LB I saw? When he said "I wish she realized she's not the only one with feelings'. Or it was worded something like that.

He asked why she was staying up so late playing the game and she called him a little b1tch in return. He confronts her that he's concerned about her time and she rakes him over the coals. It's very very immature.

I tend to agree with SusieQ Chris.... and we here have far too little real knowledge to say its a separate addiction or not to the game site.

HOWEVER ....

we do have enough info from you to make a very good case that your wife is in the middle of a EA.... at least an EA.

My gut still says this all about the attention and emotional attachment she has for this "Jon" and perhaps a few other males she met on the game site.

WHY?

Ok you have told us she gave up this WoW ... is that right ...WoW? ... for a year and a half. Yes not excited about doing so but she did .... FACT.

Lets look at what she did not give up .....

continued contact with "Jon" and or the other males she had met on the game site via FB and email or text ...whatever. You have said this as well ... FACT

I would make a large bet that her FB and email and perhaps text contact with "Jon" and the other gamer males was daily and probably multiple times a day. Addicts DO NOT give up their fix so easily... yes you may think it was a hard fight om the WoW issue but to many here I would imagine the vets would say it was far too easy ..... again ... WHY????

because I feel she really only gave up a pleasurable and perhaps easily interactive method of getting her FIX ... that is the OM Jon and or the other males.

I wonder Chris.. did you ask her to give up contact with "Jon" and the other males the same time you asked her to give up Wow back then??? If you did I bet she gave a million reasons why not and that "she wasn't going to anyway so there".

Chris this has ALL the hallmarks of a typical affair.... the attachment to the OM or OM's as the case may be is as the good Dr has said.. very similar to addictive behaviour for drugs.. alcohol ... you name it... in form and behaviour.

I have read on this site over and over where a WS has spent hour after hour after hour on FB or email or text doing exactly what your wife is doing now on the game site..... its just another method to contact the OM. It may be that the interactive game system is just more attractive to her.

I really want to just ensure that you realise that it is not just the game....its also clearly the OM or men

I would encourage you strongly to get expert advice because we are not experts. Ring the good doc perhaps... or email ...

aussiewife, do you know anyone with a WoW addiction? The only reason I ask is I think my response would be in line with what you are posting if I didn't know anyone with this type of addiction...

From what I have seen IRL, it is different than FB/computer abuse. I researched it at the time my H was starting to become addicted to it and from what I remember it is a pretty well documented problem, people losing jobs, getting divorced, and just basically playing all day with these MMOs. I think they even have some rehab centers dedicated to this type of addiction...

His wife's responses were immature. Chris said that he and his wife have been together since they were 14. They were immature when their relationship began, and it seems possible that they could have developed some immature habits in their relationship.

I will not defend his wife's behavior, because I think she is crossing a line that shouldn't be crossed, and it needs to be addressed. However, when a spouse comes here claiming that they are doing everything correctly in the relationship, I can't help but wonder if they aren't overlooking something. Chris said a few pages back that he has always made regular deposits in his wife's love bank but it's still empty. If he is making deposits to an empty account, then there has to have been some withdrawals made. He is either underestimating his deposits, making deposits that don't register with his wife (not her emotional needs), or unaware of his withdrawals (the love busters that are pushing her away).

Plan A is a legitimate course for dealing with an affair. Plan A includes making deposits and avoiding withdrawals. I don't think suggesting Chris look at those things is contradictory advice.

Indeed, Plan A involves meeting ENs that the WS will allow the BS to meet. However, it also involves a "stick". It is not an unconditional meeting of ENs without directly addressing the affair.

The stick involves exposing the affair to key people - like this wife's parents - and demanding that the affair end. It involves pointing out that the behaviour is damaging to the marriage. The affair MUST be directly addressed.

I agree with you 100% SugarCane and said so in the first sentence of my second paragraph.

Yes, it's called smoking, and bad relationships. It's called social addiction within a 12-step program. The addiction is replaced with a healthier behavior. When the addict craves, they fill that craving with a sponsor or a meeting.


Out of context. You have abuse like sexual abusers, then you have abuse like alcohol/drug abusers - which is different than addiction physiologically.

This is the definition of abuse:


And that is the MEDICAL definition of abuse. Sound like this woman? Alrighty. Abuse is a behavioral pattern, which strongly mimics addiction, but addiction is a chronic, treatable, incurable disease.


http://www.slideshare.net/jschwartz/physiology-of-addiction-by-carl-christensen

It's an hour-long presentation with powerpoint by an MD/PHD on the physiology of addiction - in the presentation a link is provided for further sources of information. It briefly goes over behavioral addiction (food addiction/compulsive eating) but does give the above definition, and compares and contrasts abuse versus addiction.



Another poster filled it; maybe it's not direct "dishonesty" per se, but an inability or ignorance of his own LB behaviors - specifically DJ behaviors.


Because Chris believes his wife's behavior is wrong, because he already believes that this relationship of hers is adulterous, and through questions asked has provided his own evidence to support his feeling (which is unnecessary, if he feels it's inappropriate it is) what's needed isn't how horrible his WW is - there are a plethora of threads available to the despicable actions of waywards - what he needs is A PLAN. Or Plan A.

Shouldn't they be? Is infidelity not so bad that we need to get up in arms about OM situations?


- Abuser/Addict remains to be seen. The strategy is to litmus test through MB principals the best he can.

- Previously addressed; dishonesty either by omission or misconception. He probably sees DJ behavior as "loving correction." I'm sure if he were to take a good, hard look at what DJ's entail, he could provide his own examples for himself, as well as for her, other than his chat log.

- Group-think; staying in agreement with the majority of the group or it's perceived leaders as such to avoid conflict. Yes, I think that happens a lot. Every day, every where. It's much easier to run with the herd, than to be ostracized for saying "Hey guys! There's a freaking cliff in front of us!" All it really makes you is a normal person most of the time.

The closing paragraph of this reply... hmmmm. Fits the descriptors of abuse, no?

The rest of it comes from personal experience; I was a WoW abuser - fitting exactly the behaviors of the definition of abuse, as well as a lot of the behaviors of Chris's wife here.

I behaved that way because? Because my love bank was EMPTY, I was withdrawn and depressed. I turned to a game to find happiness. I quit the day I got ILYBINILWY, and didn't play ANY games until the end of November.

I went from 6-10 hours a day of play, to 6-10 hours a week... on some weeks. I've gone a few weeks without playing at all. I don't "miss" it when I'm not playing, no withdrawal - but having something to fill my time when I'm NOT with my wife has helped me not go bat-poo crazy any more.


SC - kinda getting disruptive here - if you have any more objections or questions, post it up in the thread linked in my sig. You or anyone else. I will be glad to discuss anything you like. And if I get annoying, or feel disrespected, please feel free to leave a note on my FWW's thread with a request to have me smacked.

Exodus, why are you beating this man up? Why are you insisting that he is doing something wrong?

This is how he describes his own behaviour:

His saying "stupid stuff occasionally" does not explain why his sterling efforts at being a loving husband are being met with comments such as "I'll do as I please" (or whatever it was). His angry outbursts are caused by her independent behaviour in breaking their agreement for her not to play games, and by her dangerous sexual "banter" with other men. The solution is for her to STOP these behaviours. They are wrong in a marriage, full stop.

You said

It is entirely possible that her involvement with other men on gaming sites and Facebook is blocking her reception of any EN-meeting that he does. This is what happens in affairs. A BS can go all out to meet ENs and yet will not succeed in making any deposits, because the WS is allowing her ENs to be met by someone else. While she is doing this, she is closing her love bank to her husband.

We should stop battering Chris, who is away fighting a war, about what he is doing wrong. His wife is on the internet conducting sex talk to men for several hours a day, when she is both MARRIED (i.e. not supposed to be doing that) and A MOTHER (i.e. she is supposed to be looking after her very young children).

Hey chris, I havent posted much but sapph keeps me informed on your thread.

I had to deal with her playing WoW too. We started playing together for UA time 4 years ago when we were stuck at home with an infant and no where to go. It slowly turned into the same situation you ar going through. I tried to play to meet needs, but even though I was sitting in a chair next to my wife I could not see the things she would type on her screen. I still had responsibilities so I limited myself to 2 hours after the kids went to bed, but sapph was on from about 4 in the afternoon, when I got home, to midnight or 1 am.

I had to treat this as an affair. She is not only addicted to the game, which has its rewards, but to the immature men living in their parents basement. This same situation changed my wife into a 16 year old girl with no responsibilites and disrespecting me also. I became a doormat trying to make her happy, but my plan to try and make her happy did not work.

This is what I did:
I cut off her WoW because I was paying for it. It took 3 months for the subscription to expire, but why would I want to pay for her adultery? I told my WW that she can pay for it if she wants it, but I will not.

I blocked FB using a browser blocker and my router.

I installed the keylogger, which you have, and I also installed the elephant add on to wow to get both sides of the conversations. (must have access to the computer and her account for it to work.

We mutaully agreed to limit her playing time to a couple hours. (even now I think I should have blocked WoW altogether by blocking a port or IP on the router and saying, huh, the server must be down.)

I cancelled our joint bank account and moved all the bills and direct deposit into another bank. I was only going to fund my family, not the adultery.

I figure these are things that I did to protect myself, not control my WW. My WW could still go out to the library and use FB, I couldn't stop her doing that.

I then did a massive exposure to all her family and my family and our friends online. I attached some conversations that I recorded from hacking into her FB account, but I HIGHLY suggest to not do that, just let others know you have evidence of her cheating ways.

Next I got rid of all my DJ's. Some of the subtle jokes that I would comments were just downright mean and nasty. I would also treat my WW like a kid. Then I turned on the charm trying everything to recreate that dating atmosphere that we fell in love with. I made her cookies and wrote her i love you notes. Made her breakfast in bed, and all those wonderful things.

If she stayed up all night talking to these guys online I would get up and let her know, with a smile on my face, that her actions are ruining our marriage. Then go back to bed. I would not condone what she was doing to our marriage and our family.

That there is how I implemented my carrot and stick. I tried my best to meet her needs, and still deliver the stick without being the bad guy. I was not the bad guy trying to save my marriage. I was protecting myself, my kids, and my family from adultery.

There are things you can do to deliver an effective carrot and stick. I left the bad guy image up to my MIL and SIL's, they have no reservations telling her she was throwing her life away, and I am thankful for them for doing that.

It's not about battering Chris, nor about justifying anything she is doing.

It's about him creating the biggest, juiciest Plan A "carrot" that he possibly can so applying the stick is effective.

I'm certain he recognizes AO behavior, but isn't quite spectacular at recognizing DJ behavior. As such, he sees himself seeing "stupid little things" (AO) here and there, and has missed the DJ behavior.

This IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION FOR HER BEHAVIOR, nor is it an excuse. He needs to recognize these behaviors SO HE CAN STOP DOING IT. He doesn't need to regret them, or apoligize. He didn't know. A lot of people didn't know. A lot of people pulled off several LB behaviors over and over, and when their marriage hit a crisis, they went "But, but, but... I was TEH BEST SPOUSE EVAR!?!?!?!"

I thought I was. I could describe myself before my withdrawal just as Chris does - but I missed the mark. A LOT OF PEOPLE MISSED THE MARK.

THIS DOES NOT JUSTIFY HER BEHAVIOR.

What is going on is unarguably horrible - but the best thing to do is not to wallow in his wife's actions. It is to arm him properly to fight the war at home as best he can in his current situation.

My intent is not to batter Chris, it is to help Chris improve his marriage by evaluating his own behavior. Don't most threads discuss that both spouses are responsible for the state of a marriage while only the wayward is responsible for an affair?

I know all about men fighting wars. I have been through deployments with my husband. His wife is NOT doing right, but I am not sure if Chris bringing the stick down hard on her is the correct option.

I have seen how some military wives take advantage of a husband being away. It can be ugly. She has a lot of power right now. His command is not going to shorten his tour so he can deal with this. He is not in the home. She has power of attorney to make any financial decisions she wants to. She has his children. It isn't a normal situation.

I am sorry if I offended you, SugarCane. I think we are both on the same side.

Bingo.

Making DJ's to my wife about her TV time DID NOT WORK. It failed over and over and over. It failed me for 6 years until I withdrew.

Until I withdrew, I made enough deposits to keep her in intimacy/conflict - but after I withdrew, all that was left were withdrawals.

You guys are both right. To get the best plan A you have to improve yourself. Stop the LB's and and provide the juciest carrot to the biggest donkey. I did alot to improve myself, to gain the respect from my wife, and I had to do it while enduring one of the worst pains of my life. I figured I had to learn how to be a better husband so if this marriage ends in a divorce then the next one will be better because i am a better person.

I think Chris gets the idea that he has to try to be better and he has to do it now, but there is this affair that needs to be addressed. All of which is encopassed in a successful plan A.