I'm in desperate need of advice. I've been dealing with this issue for the past 4 years.

Basically my wife, in my opinion, is having inappropriate relationships with other men. Sexual and Flirtatious in nature. I've caught her telling other guys she wants to have sex with them, meet up with them, etc. She has never cheated on me but her conversations are driving me nuts. She is allowed to speak with other men like this but if I were to do this with a female friend (I wouldn't) she would castrate me.

I'm currently in Afghanistan and due to history with this issue I decided to check in on her to see if she still had the habit (despite her saying she didn't).

She plays an online game called World of Warcraft. Her conversations in this game, and out, to these guys almost divorced us two years ago. I told her it was me or the game and she chose me. We agreed she would never play ever again. Well, 1 week into my deployment she told me she was playing again whether I like it or not. I told her I was not okay with her playing, that she was breaking our agreement and she blew me off saying I wasn't trusting her (despite me having a legit reason) and that I was being controlling.

These are some quick excerpts from yesterday (I can only see her side of the conversation). I have logs for the past 8 days or so and back home (not here sorry) I have a bunch of previous logs from when she was really over the top with this. PLEASE HELP!!


...

...

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(this is her response after he said hi to her on facebook)

use your imagination on this one...

Sigh...

Unfair that she can't spend time with this guy? Getting shafted?

...
.


Please help, this is just ONE day!

Welcome to MB, Chris, and Happy New Year.

I don't think that there's any question that your wife is stepping over the line (in reference to your thread title).

Your wife's behaviour is not conducive to creating a happy, romantic marriage. She seems not to care about basic fidelity, nor to want to take your feelings of unhappiness into account. I am puzzled as to why she is married.

You say that you have been dealing with this for 4 years. How long have you been legally married? How old are you both? Do you have kids, and what are their ages? For how much of your marriage have you been deployed?

There are many articles and thread that you should read from this site. I recommend that you begin with Dr Harley's Basic Concepts, in which he gives his guidelines for a healthy marriage. The Policy of Joint Agreement is described by Dr Harley as

teach(ing) couples to become thoughtful and sensitive to each other's feelings when they don't feel like it. If both spouses follow this policy, they avoid all the Love Busters because they won't mutually agree to anything that hurts one of them. Demands, disrespect and anger are eliminated because even negotiating strategy must be mutually agreed to, and no one likes to be the recipient of abuse. Annoying behavior is eliminated because if one spouse finds any behavior or activity of the other annoying, according to the policy, it cannot be done. It even eliminates dishonesty, because a lie is certainly not something that you would agree to enthusiastically. It helps plug up the holes in the sieve of the Love Bank that cause most couples to drift into loveless incompatibility.

Your wife has no concept of POJA and she needs to be persuaded of its merits. The article Four Guidelines to Successful Negotiation tells you how to raise the issue of your wife's thoughtless, dangerous behaviour without causing her to withdraw from you.

There is a separate forum here called Military Marriages. if you read some of the threads there, like RIF's threads, you will see that Dr Harley identifies a particular problem with deployment, to which he has not found a satisfactory answer.

I recommend that you read as much as possible for now, and await further responses from posters here when the board wakes up.

Thanks for the response, I will read up.

But to answer your questions:

We're both 26. Married for 6 years, together for 12. We have 3 kids ages 5, 3, and 2. This is my first deployment so it's definitely not the originating cause of this issue.

Sorry you are here but welcome.

First, you may want to press "Notify" and have this moved to SAA.

Some questions:
All this chatting is with one OM, is that right? Do you have his name and do you know if he is married? Do you have access to her cell records, can you see if they have been calling and texting?

Hang in there.

Not sure what an OM is, but no it's not all to one guy. But it is the same guys from the previous issue I mentioned. They are not married, most are single or have girlfriends. I have checked the cells and since I don't know their numbers I can't see who she's calling. I just get numbers. Reverse lookups cost money that I can't discreetly spend. However, to my knowledge, she has not been calling or texting them.

An OM = "other man". We also use OM1, OM2, etc to denote "other man #1" and "other man #2" in chronological order for wayward wives (WW) who have more than one affair. Wayward husbands (WH) have other women (OW).

Please put your ages, length of time married, and kids with their ages in your signature block. It will save the veteran posters time when looking at your thread.

Please click on 'notify' and ask the moderators to move your thread to the SAA (surviving an affair) forum.

Sorry that you're here but you're in the right place.

I already notified the mods to move the thread. I added my info to my signature block, if I need to change the lingo let me know.

Uhhh I think your WW is 26 not 16

Might also want to explicitly state in your sig block that she's the WW, that will also help the vets.

You'll see other examples of sig blocks as you read more.

Updated...

Thought I'd add one more days worth...







Referring to my last name:

Not talking to me...

Hi Chris, sorry you have to be here. WOW had a hand in destroying my marriage, too. It became a huge source of female attention (along with others) for WXH, to the point where he refused to play the game with me even though I tried. Then my character mysteriously turned up BANNED shortly after and could not be played any more. Coincidence?

The point is: Don't let anyone tell you you're making too much of this because it's just a stupid game, etc. It used to be Everquest and now it's World of Warcraft serving as hookups for cheaters. Sorry this happened to you.

WOW also was the result of my infedelity, your wife will not change unless the fog lifts and the only way to do that is to expose these affairs telling everyone family/friends/neighbors/children/etc... even the om girlfriends. You need supoort from family and friends.

Your marriage can and will survive her anger but it will not survive if she keeps flirting with men.

Although we sometimes miss playing the game but we both know that it would be a HUGE trigger for wheels and so there for wow is not aloud in our home.

You are doing the right thing, and exposure is a must because it will often stop the EA before it becomes a PA. I had an Army friend that returned from deployment only to find out his wife was on a site called Ashley Madison which promotes affairs with other married people. He had to do alot of homework, but he was able to expose all of his wife's EA/PA and she stopped it immediately. He and his wife have gone to MC, and have been able to rebuild their marriage, but he said none of this would have been possible without him snooping and exposing the affairs. So, having heard his story I am beginning to believe in the Power that Exposure has to end PA. I hope this helps.

I just want to point out to you guys mentioning exposing her will solve this issue: I exposed her before and even though SHE was the one in the wrong, she hit ME with saying I had trust issues and was being controlling... even though I wasn't the on straying. I ended up telling her mom and dad, showing them the logs. She of course said she was just kidding, messing around, etc so her parents blew it off. She didn't quit easily the first time, it took 2 years of collecting evidence to throw in her face to get her to quit and I had to basically threaten her with divorce.

When she started playing again I was against it at first (well I still am technically). She said I didn't trust her and was being controlling. That by not giving her another chance I was automatically saying she would do these things again. Well, I eventually gave in. She promised me a lot of things would never happen again, that she made some mistakes (really?), and day by day the promises are slowly breaking (casual -> Hardcore, not-raiding -> Raiding, friendly talk -> Sexual/flirty talk, etc).

This time around the flirting isn't nearly as bad but it's still the fact that she's A) doing it and B) made a huge deal about me trusting her and has lied to me about it. Exposing her this time around won't work unless I have a ton of evidence and it'll likely end in divorce because of "trust issues" (even though she is the one straying).

Anyways, she's not physically cheatin, but she is emotionally/socially cheating and I just don't feel like exposure will work the same way this time around.

Chris, they ALL say the stuff your WW has said to you. They ALL turn it right back on you and try to make you feel guilty with "you don't trust me!" They are ALL talking right out of the same script.

And they ALL Lie, Lie, Lie, Lie and Lie some more.

You can't let this get to you. If you refuse to expose her behaviour to anyone who might bring pressure on her, then you may as well give up now and just accept the fact that you have a part-time wife who only stays with you as long as you don't interfere with her time spent with other men.

Appeasing her will not work. You might think she would be grateful enough to you for not exposing that she'll just stop this behaviour and never ever do it again.

You couldn't be more wrong. She is bullying you into backing off because that has always worked before and then she can enjoy her cheating in peace. As long as you let her bully and threaten you into being a doormat, THAT is what she will continue to do.

I wish I could be more encouraging, but we have seen this countless times with both WH and WW - and it's always the same thing.

Oh trust me I want to expose her and confront her, especially since she lied to me about this whole thing just so she could play again, I just want more evidence before I do. Thanks for all the information so far!

I have some questions:

1) How long is your deployment going to be?

2) Do the logs show how much time she is spending in play?

3) How much of family resources are being used to pay for her to play the game?

You could always have the net cut off.

A year
Sort of, I get a time stamp each time she swaps windows, so if she's ingame for hours I only get 1 time stamp.
It's $15/mo before expansions, transfers, etc

I do think she is crossing a line and she is crossing it when she is in a very vulnerable situation. Deployments are a time when extraordinary precautions are especially important.

Considering the ages of your children, I would try and find out how much time she is devoting to the game.

I would imagine the internet is your primary source of communication with her, but if she is paying for the service with a CC, you could contact them about refusing to accept charges for the game play.

Cutting off her game is a sure fire way to ensure I don't get to talk to my kids. If I piss her off that's how she would punish me. Plus, I don't want to give her any ideas because while I'm here I'm defenseless. If I approach her about this and she explodes then she has access to everything I own, finances, etc. I think collecting evidence, at this point, is my only option.

And doing nothing will get you a one way ticket to divorce is that what you want???

Ending the game now might upset her, but there are other options for her socialization needs... like your unit's family support network. The longer she continues with the independent behavior the harder it will be to stop it when you do return and address it.

If you do nothing else, you should at least use that CC to purchase His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters and have them delivered to the house. Tell her that you would like to use this time apart in a positive way to improve your marriage.

For now.

Did you know I bought a plane ticket for my FWW's guildie?

Don't feel bad, I didn't know either. It was one of the last discoveries that came to light. I could never figure out why whenever I went to a travel site the browser would automatically fill in my home city and a date one week in the future.

It's not really the game's fault. Playing together can count as quality time, but playing separate can lead to disaster..

I've tried books before and counseling. She won't do it.

You guys are right, I should confront her as soon as possible, but please remember with me so far away she has direct control over whether I see my kids or not. If she punished me by taking away my ability to see them I would be devastated.

And I know she will. As soon as open my mouth the first thing out of hers will be, "YOU WERE KEYLOGGIN ME!?" and then I won't get another word in. It'll be pointless trying to talk to her after that. She'll know I was because she would never talk to people like this infront of me. She only does it when I'm not looking.

This was my initial thought on this situation too. Given that she is so resistant to giving it up and that she shouldn't have the time to play with three young children, my guess is that she is addicted to the game and that is a bigger problem at this point than any one of the OM.

Also I may be biased as I know a handful of people who are addicted to MMOs...my H was at one point too.

Chris, do you think she is addicted?

Hey, I just logged off!

Ok.

A lot of that banter is... bleh. Normal banter. Happens male-to-male as much as male-to-female and vice-versa.

Some of it DOES cross the line. I have played with quite a few females, and they hush the guys when they get too out of hand.

Keep an eye out for the out-of-game contacts, however; FB, email, text, phone - maybe even guild forums if you can.

The larger issue at hand is the IB/AH (independent behavior, annoying habit) involved with her play.

WoW replaced my wife because she pretty much refused to give me her time - it was a placebo that distracted me enough to stop fighting for my M. The end result, not so good.

The game will meet needs; recreational companionship, conversation, admiration. It did for me.

In your case, this is exceedingly dangerous, as you are deployed and unable to meet some of those needs.

Normal banter?

"Not like your penis"?

"Eat me"?

Surely neither "bleh" nor normal.

She talks to several of them through facebook. The same guys who she said she wanted to have sex with, used to tell our personal lives to, finances, sex life, etc. These are the same guys that continuously flirt with her, call her sexy every day, make sexual innuendos (like the one above where she said to "Eat me" and then "go slow" she was promoting the conversation).

I can go on forever on what she does that is inappropriate. These are just the beginning, she was leagues worse before but this is only 3-4 weeks in the running so far.

Just to clarify I'm not allowed to talk to anyone like this. Hell last time I had a female friend, I only talked to her rarely about motorcycles, my wife got SUPER JEALOUS. She jumped my [censored] once for telling this girl I had a meeting... Wife said that was too personal. Keep in mind while my wife is saying this to me she's having these conversations with these other guys.

So I avoid having female friends now because the headache isn't worth it.

At the least this is imho, a gateway to a full blown ema. Sounds like the game gives her the addiction payoff that an ema gives. She seems to be enjoying the attention from the male players.

And yes, it is stepping over a line. I do not believe what she is doing is fine.

How can you begin a good plan A and work on getting her to give up her game (which is like the affair partner)? That seems to be what needs to happen asap.

Wish you both well!

I don't agree that the problem is Independent behaviour - unless HHH means that all affairs involve independent behaviour. However, we don't normally diagnose affairs as "independent behaviour"; we call them "affairs"!

The problem is that your wife is trolling for sex, which is an astonishing thing for a married person to do. Your wife not only seems to have crossed over appropriate boundaries in marriage; she seems to have ripped up the concept of boundaries and thrown it on a bonfire.

Having her needs met for recreation and conversation by other men is indeed a serious problem. Talking to men on Facebook is a serious problem, as is not spending time with you. However, while all those activities can lead to affairs, in your wife's case she is actively having sex, if only at the moment via the internet.

Talking to men about their penises is not a problem because it takes time away from you or her kids; it is a problem because it is a remote form of sexual fulfilment. She is having online sex with other men. This is infidelity and it IS the problem.

I too am a recovered WOW addict.

The stuff is like crack and I spent close to 18 months of being sleep deprived at work, hallucinating while I was awake, thinking about killing stuff and when stressed at work all I could think about was whipping out 2 swords and attacking whatever it was. I realized I had a problem when I was answering a chat at work trying to plug in the game commands and my boss asking me what the heck I was typing!

My wife stopped responding to me verbally and physically during this time. I could not see it due to the addiction fog.

She started a job during this time, opened up a new bank account and told me as soon as the kids were out of school she was headed to her mothers - for good. It took me a good 3 more months of going cold turkey to shake it. I don't play anymore. I still feel the pull but won't let it take me again.

I'm still recovering from this crap. My relationship with my wife and children is still strained and I'm thankful for this site.

Get her off this game if you can. I realize it will be hard to do.

FTR, I agree 100% this IS infidelity and that it is a problem...but I am thinking along the lines of when Dr Harley says his plans don't work on addicts, alcoholics, etc. That's where I think Exodus was spot on in terms of questioning how much she plays, etc.

Like SusieQ, I agree with you about the seriousness of the problem, Sugarcane.

I also think SusieQ is correct in that an addiction to the game would add yet another consideration.

I brought up IB because 2 years ago they agreed for her to stop. She stopped, then waited until he was deployed and told him she was going to play whether or not he liked it. IB is always a factor in affairs and a major love buster even if there is no affair.

Chris is half a world away from three young children that need a lot of care. If she is spending so much time with the game that her responsibilities as a parent are being neglected, then I think that is the most pressing issue. At least it would be for me. It is also an issue that would need immediate intervention, even if he doesn't want to confront his wife about her inappropriate behavior with other men at this time.

I hate to do this again but what is IB? Is there list of acronyms somewhere?


To everyone talking about how much she plays, if I had to guess it would be 6-10 hours a day. She frequently plays in the morning between breakfast and lunch, doesn't log off for lunch (just goes afk to do lunch for the kids) then plays till around dinner. She usually logs off around dinner then logs back on afterwards and plays till around 12am-2am.

How she can spend that much time a day on the game and not be neglecting the kids or the house is beyond me. My daughter wakes up around 6-6:30am for school so I don't know how she deals with the kids with only 3-4 hours of sleep.

Well, it sure looks weird when we get one half of the conversation, don't it?

So, why do I say something about the banter being bleh?

Um, because blessing of protection is a paladin spell. I'm familiar with the game lingo.

So, I'm assuming that since you are dismissing the entire statement here, you've done a lot of online gaming? Yes? No?

I've actually played with ENTIRE FAMILIES on this game; Husband, wife, and kids, all playing the game together. I play with my nephew and my cousin at times.

Granted, it can lead to addictive behavior, or abusive behavior. And there is a difference. Neither behavior is excusable. I fell into the trap myself, and allowed it to eat most of my time and attention.

Like punk rock, and piercings, and "those dang kids" it's rather difficult to understand the language and behavior of a culture you don't belong to or partake in, especially if that culture doesn't care about your perceptions.

So, yes. A lot of what he posted is typical banter in the gaming world.

Yes, "Like your penis" is a phrase that's uttered when you are interacting with a demographic predominately dominated by young males.

So, before we start stating what's "normal" and getting all bunched up, let's remember that "normal" is a subjective term.

So, what was the REST of my post? To further gather intelligence; email, phone records, and if possible guild forums, if she participates, which will have a private message system. Also check IM/FB etc.

So, let's review the banter here;


A heart, a thanks, and an emote. Someone enchanted her gear.


Someone saved her from dying in the game with the paladin spell blessing of protection. Someone compared it to a condom.


Banter - she's behaving/speaking like those she interacts with. Someone likely made a statement about something working/being big/being hard.


Translation: FU, second part - adding insult to injury, after, the ^ means someone posted something funny or that she agreed with.


um, was looking forward to playing with somebody - likely a good ally in dungeons or raids, mocking them about being off owrk or something - likely talking about in-game items or items in the guild bank or something.


Emote and trash talk.


Somebody stood in the fire (the were playing badly)


emote, dirty connotation added to be "funny," and a response most likely to being deflated.


All emotes in game.


Trash talk.


got hit with a spell or attack - turned to dirty trash talk.


A joke at the expense of her H's last name. Nothing banter or cool about it.


Worth wondering about.


Trash talk. Could have been actual sex talk... hard to tell without the other half of the conversation...


Not really talking about what kind of stimulation, or what's being stimulated. Could have been acting word, and been called overstimulated.


Internet meme. Often attached to images of animals pouncing, people approaching from behind, or people with wide-eyed expressions.


Is it appropriate? No. But it's common banter in the game. Having spent 4 years and extensive hours playing it, I know it is. However, I also know that you can play the game WITHOUT partaking in those conversations, just like you can go to work and NOT flirt with coworkers.

IB= Independent Behavior.

Normally I'd agree with you that it is normal banter. However this person she is talking to just so happens to be someone she talks to outside the game frequently, calls, texts, and was the guy she said she wanted to have sex with and offered to meet up with him in Minnesota or Vegas.

Also I disagree with it being normal because I am not allowed to do it. Their is no mutual agreement between us that conversations like this are harmless. I can't even talk to other females, let alone talk to them sexually. I'm not saying I WANT to, I think it's wrong regardless. She wouldn't do it to my face or infront of me then she is obviously hiding it.

Not to mention she is giving these men attention that I have been begging for, for years. I wish she would have sexually charged conversations with me, but it doesn't happen. She is anti-sexual with me. But when it comes to other men... yeah it's no holds barred.

Can you not change how much of the finances she has access to? Do you not have any family near her? I know you've said that you've told her parents before. But speak to her parents again. They can be really good allys to you. And be honest and let them know that she will prob manipulate teh situation through punishment to you by you not speaking to the kids.

You have got to do something before this gets more out of hand than it already is

You need to address teh situation as far as how much time she is spending absorbed into the computer screen. I have a 2, 4, and 8 year old at home...there is no way I could find that kind of time to sit in from of the computer without some form of neglect happenign to the kiddos.

And at some point you're going to have to stand your ground in that she cannot speak ot other men that way. It is innapropriate and she shoudl know that you will not tolerate that.

I can limit her access to finances but as soon as I do she's going to know something is up. She moved back to our home town to be near family while I'm gone so yeah she is near the parents and everyone else. The problem with persuading her parents, which is what happened last time, is she'll just blow enough smoke up their butts until they back off. She'll lie and deceive them the same way she does me. However, if I'm going to approach my wife to solve this issue I'm going to have to rely on them to keep her in line and make sure she doesn't punish me.

I have never played a game online. I wasn't dismissing the entire statement, but I was questioning it.

Thank you for translating, HHH. I had no idea that these phrases were used in a gaming context. I see now what you mean about "normal" and "bleh" and I withdraw my comment.

I would reserve withdrawing you opinion until you compare those comments with the context in which my wife is using them, how close she is to this guy, and the offers they have between each other.

She assures me she would never cheat (physically) with any of those "losers" but she still continues to have these conversations with them.

Chris, I don't think that Dr Harley's vision is that one spouse should control the other in a marriage as if she were a child. The links and recommendations that I gave you in my first post on this thread are intended, I believe, for a couple to follow TOGETHER. POJA, meeting ENs and eliminating IB (independent behaviour) are things that both spouses must use to make the marriage flourish.

The objective is to get your wife to AGREE to build your marriage into a happy and romantic one. If she will not, and if she stands her ground on playing games, asking to meet men for sex and taking minimal care of the children, then you will need to Call it Quits. I know you don't want it to come to that, and that separating will be difficult while you are deployed. You need to turn the marriage around before it gets to "calling it quits", but I can see that this will be hard with your wife's independent spirit.

Somehow you are going to have to tell her that you know what she is doing and that it is unacceptable. There is no point in your gathering this data if you are not going to use it to protect your marriage and your children.

Could you try getting her agreement to being monitored? I wouldn't reveal the keylogger, but I found out only yesterday when researching parental controls for my own computer that you can impost these via the computer's own programme. With an admin account, you can ban access on another account to various applications like multi-player games, and you can limit the amount of time that an account can be accessed (e.g. 2 hours per day). You can also check the sites that the user has accessed.

If you can get your wife to agree that games can be addictive and that she might be spending many hours playing, and that this is harmful to the children, you might be able to get her agreement to restricted access. Obviously, if she has an admin account she can undo the restrictions, but if you agree that you will also check her usage when you come home (via the PC, not via the keylogger; that is secret, remember) she will see that it would be futile to lie about usage.

This will only work if she agrees that her gaming is excessive and that she is addicted. The idea is to get her to agree to your helping her break the addiction.

If you cannot get her agreement that her usage is wrong and harmful, then I don't see any hope for the longer term. You cannot run your marriage by cutting off access to games (or the internet as a whole), as if your wife were your child. If your wife will not see that she is neglecting her children, then you will eventually have to take legal action to make sure they are cared for - which means a separation and residential custody with you.

Since the language of online gaming seems to include terms that sound sexual, but that are not intended as such, then I agree with HHH that the language is not in itself the issue. Contact outside the game is the greater issue. I worry, though, about her saying that she would like to meet men for sex. Is that normal gaming language?

I'm going to stay off the language issue, because I shouldn't talk about something about which I know nothing. I do understand the general issue of context, and I'll leave others to discuss the gaming world.

ITA. Chris, I wouldn't even bother trying to approach her re the inappropriate conversations/bad boundaries with men until you can figure out a way to get the gaming to stop while you are overseas.

6-10hrs a day w/three children 5 and under is alarming. Very alarming.

Do you have any friends or neutral family members that you can quietly ask to unexpectedly drop by during the day and evening to see how the kids are being cared for?

The parents-in-law stop by fairly frequently. My wife continues to play even while they are there but she typically gets away with it because she cooks dinner and because the in-laws are so accustomed to seeing her playing games, even when they are around, that they don't even give it a second thought (going on 5-6 years, just on WoW). They aren't my idea of a perfect marriage either because their views on many things are flawed also.

I agree with the previous poster that restricting her access to things "forcefully" like a child will get me no where. She will get defensive, shut down, and nothing will be accomplished until I turn it back on and wait the required "cool-down" period. Getting her to admit to having an addiction, neglecting the kids, etc is a fight I've tried before (when I had 100% proof she was) and lost. I don't expect the outcome to be any different this time around.

I am not convinced the game is her issue this time around. In my opinion all it is doing is giving her easier access to these so called "friends." It's her actions with these guys that is driving me nuts. No matter what I do, I cannot get the physically proof I would need to prove she is neglecting the kids or playing too much. I just don't have this capability 8000 miles away. What I can get 100% proof on is what she is saying. Everything else is approximations.

Yes, I can technically remote into her pc and set up certain things, check logs, etc but there is a VERY limited window (20 minutes or so) of my day where I can freely access her PC and her not be on it (during my lunch break, and the internet here is super slow). So no I can't really setup anything extravagant.

I appreciate everyone's advice, keep it coming.

*EDIT: I realize my "not convinced the game is her issue" paragraph may be taken the wrong way so I'm going to clarify a little. I cannot prove it is the problem so I cannot persue it . It's highly unlikely that I can get her to admit to playing too much. There's a million arguments we've already had over this game and she will never admit to playing too much. I KNOW she is neglecting the kids--I know this because I know my kids. She is denying them quality mom time by playing so much. This mom time is very instrumental to their development as children. They are so used to being ignored throughout the day though that they destroy stuff, make huge messes, etc because that's what they know will get them attention. Anyways, back on topic, I don't feel I can honestly persue something I can't prove, and if she won't admit to it, then I'm right back at square one. If I straight out accuse her and say I know she is doing it, then she'll ask how, and immediately know I'm monitoring her.

No, it won't be. Because you're not going to tell her how you know, just that you DO.

Never reveal your snooping sources.

Trust me, I don't have to admit to it. She will know. She'll run every spyware, anti-virus, malware, etc known to man and she will find it.

She's not computer illiterate...

No, she won't. Because you're going to direct her spyware/virus programs to ignore the application.

But - can you physically get to her computer? Did I miss that you are physically away from her right now?

Yeah, I'm in Afghanistan

Sorry, Chris, I re-read your thread but couldn't find it - I read too fast, maybe, but when will you be home?

10 months

Darn. Okay, here's my take on this whole thing:

Your wife is engaging in inappropriate behavior with other men. I don't care if it's the parlance of the game. Language that filthy, while acceptable during gameplay, can find its way into the 'real' world of the player.

Personally, I would have a real problem with my H being online in an environment like that.

Your wife is engaging in addictive behavior. Any addictive behavior is bad for a marriage.

Your children are being neglected. I am not saying they are being harmed, necessarily, or that their basic needs aren't being met. It is just simple math. There aren't enough hours in a day to be the healthy parent they need if she's spending that much time online. The fact that you are deployed makes it that much more imperative that she be available to your kids, and not sitting online, using inappropriate language with strangers.

You are in a bad spot because you're not on hand to physically address this. But I would suggest that you find some way to curtail her online gaming. I'd like to see you cut her off entirely, but I think you'll have trouble with that.

Chris, I would suggest you lock up your finances and put her on a short leash with this game. Talk to her parents as well. Let them know what you're doing and why. Let them know that the amount of time she is spending on her gaming is interfering with her care of their grandchildren. Ask them to help you with this and support your desire to end, or at least significantly curtail, the online gaming.

I know you're running up against the possibility that she'll be furious at being curtailed on the game, but I think you'll need to do so anyway. I wouldn't allow the threat of not being able to talk to your kids to prevent your action on this.

Chris, isn't there someone on the base you can talk to about this? You are deployed in a very dangerous job, but your wife is cheating and your kids are being neglected. This is going to eat you alive and no one can function properly in their job with that kind of stress - and you've already got far more "job stress" than almost anyone.

Can you talk to a chaplin, CO, somebody there? Unfortunately, this kind of crap happens all the time and it won't be the first time they've had to deal with it. They may have more resources and help for you and the kids stateside. I hope you will look into this.

Ok because I have been in this situation and I had an addiction of wow and it caused the result of my infefeility what you need to do is this....

Limit her spending money each month meaning only provide things you know your children will need
Cut off your internet if she needs to email then she can go to the library.
If you are afriad to do that then limit the time on wow get the parental password you need to do....

Get ur wifes account information username/password
Go to this site Https://us.battle.net/account/parental-controls/index.html do what it says to make parental controls on her account u do not need her computer to do this. My husband did this when I refused to quit and he would only let me play from 9:00-11:00 when the kids where in bed.

After you do this re-expose to everyone I mean everyone facebook it if you have to but family, friends, neighbors, children needs to know

When your wife screams and yells just say you are doing this to save your marriage.

But even two hours a day will not fix the situation it will only limit her to her gaming hours, she will still flirt, complain, and talk trash and dirty when she is on. It might even go to the extent where she will give them her number so they can text during the day while she's not on....hence why I said cut off the net first

You also need to remind your wife that she is on a dangerouse road and if she still wants this marriage she needs to change.

Sorry for the mispelled words on my phone

Good luck

Can you cancel her subscription?

If you can I highly suggest you do it but make sure your money is safe so she doesn't pay for it. Get another account and put it all in there.

Who pays for bills?

Fyi when you have the parental controls on her comp if ur too afraid to cut the net it will only let her log in on the tmes you want her in as soon as it hits the end time it will automatically log her off.

Good post and I agree. I'm just having a hard time thinking she's actually going to take any of this in a positive way. If I mention anything about her playing too much, neglecting the kids, inappropriate language/conversations, etc she is going to wall herself up and shut me out. She isn't going to hear what I have to say because if I disagree with something she does I'm being controlling and/or untrustworthy.

I think being there physically is going to be my only way of fighting this issue. Plus I don't exactly have the capability to just shut her out of the finances. If I somehow found a way to, and I did it first, she would know something is up. And if I didn't do it first it's likely she'll shut me out before I get a chance to.

She has a way with words and can easily make me out to be the bad guy no matter what I say to her parents. I am not confident that they will side with me no matter what I say--especially after the lackluster help I got from them last time.

I think my parents are a better route but they never come visit and I don't think he'll be reliable enough to actually work in my favor. My step-mom kind of knows what's going on, more than my dad and my wife's parents, but her being disabled she can't do anything without my dad anyways.

If I try to curtail her gaming forcefully she is going to wall up and close me out, call me controlling, etc. If I try to bargain with her she'll just tell me she doesn't know what I'm talking about and deny everything.

And it's not so much that I'm worried she will be mad at me for stopping her, it's that I'm pretty sure as soon as I put my foot down she will leave me. And that's going to give her 10 months to build up her defense, prepare herself, etc for the divorce/custody battle. I can't prepare while I'm here. And I'm not really in a good place to be controlling the finances since she needs ready access for the kids, bills, etc.

Trust me, I know what I want to do, which is basically what you guys are saying, but I just don't feel my current situation is conducive with doing it appropriately, timely, or accurately.

Sorry guys, I know it sounds like I don't want to do anything. But that's not the case. I've been with this woman 12 years, I know her inside and out, and this isn't the first time this battle has been fought. If I'm going to confront her the same way I did last time (ultimatum) I feel I'm going to need a stronger prosecution than a few one sided chat messages.

I can't cancel her account, I can't even log into it. She has an authenticator and I can't do [censored] about it.

I can't limit her financially because I don't have the capability to provide her with resources in a timely manner if things come up. She isn't blowing money, that's not my concern. WoW is cheap...



I've thought about this since I can do it through my router. But once again if she doesn't agree to it, it's going to end badly for me. It will be no different than me shutting her off completely. She'll still do what she wants, talk to them how she wants, etc except only now I'm the one who is suffering the most due to her punishing me. Cutting the net isn't wise since I need to have contact with them and she needs net for bills. I don't have the time to go through the parental controls and get that detailed with it.

Your either going to find a way...or your going to find the excuses.

And all I hear are excuses you think not doing anything for 10 months is going to help you? Then sir you are mistakingly WRONG!!

If you sit and do nothing then you will come home to a wife that is pregant with STDs.

So my friend I have know idea why you even came if all your going to do is give excuses and if you think because you are deployed you can't do anything then go read sickoflimbos thread.

We are here trying to help you giving you things you can do to help your marriage are we saying ''oh poor guy he's gone for ten months and can't do anything to save his marriage boo hoo'' NO!

We are saying YOU CAN SAVE THIS MARRIAGE but if your not willing to do the work to save it then you will lose.

Sorry to be harsh but I'm tired of hearing people wanting to save their marriage but won't do nothing about it its an oximoron because when that divorce day comes you will be one of the reasons why u didn't save ur marriage. You just sat there.

You and your wife have been together since you were both 14 years old?

ETA- I agree with Sapphire. Finding agreement that your wife is crossing a line isn't going to change anything. You need to DO something to bring about change.

Sorry, you're right. I need to man up and take control. If she's blatantly damaging our marriage and I'm not doing anything to try and make it better then I'm no better than she is. If it blows up and she leaves then at least I can say I tried.

I'm going to get an appointment with a chaplain and go from there. Thanks for all the advice MB'ers!


Correct.

Chris, if you continue to operate from a position of fear you will not end this addiction.

Of course your wife will be angry! Take an addict's crack away and they howl like a banshee! As a matter of fact, how much she howls may be a good confirmation for you and your ILs over just how addicted she is.

You're right. See above post.

Exacly atleast you can you tried

Chris, you are in a combat zone setting your own life aside in defense of others. It's almost ironic that you are afraid of tackling this situation. You're going to have to stand up for your marriage or it's going to get worse. As boundaries are crossed, that line gets blurred more and more. Teh hardest part is starting this. You know what will happen if you do nothing. Listen to the ones giving you advice, these are the ones that have been through this and are giving you what works.

You need to call her parents and tell them how you feel. Give them direct quotes from her playing log. Tell them whether it's game talk or not, the same talking is happening through off-game conversations. You also need to tell her that the way she is speaking to other men is innapropriate.

Exactly. And your children will know this, too. Right now they are helpless in the face of an addict's neglect.


Good, good, good - believe me, they see this stuff all the time (I know we sure see it all the time here) and they will certainly give you some concrete help and support. Let us know what happens.

If she is friending them on FB, it HAS. If she is calling and texting them, it HAS. That IS a problem - and later on you NAIL the actual problem.

As far as "language that filthy" , and sub-cultures really don't care about the judgment of outsiders.


Oh yeah? Enough to engage in angry outbursts and disrespectful judgments against your spouse? Because THAT'S where this line of thinking goes, dear. Using your "superior" position to educate your spouse.


BINGO!.. Kind of. If it isn't textbook definition of addiction, it is, at a minimum, the textbook definition of abuse! The OP is a further symptom of the problem, in ADDITION to being a problem on it's own.

In fact, Chris - if you were to snoop and find NOTHING giving solid evidence of anything other than gamer's banter - I would STILL say you have a situation that is EXACTLY as dangerous as an affair, and that in and of itself, exacerbated by YOUR behavior towards her, could easily lead to an affair.

You stated YOURSELF you have had several "arguments" about the game. Even were you to change the operative term here to "discuss" I know the deal; you engaged in Angry Outbursts, Disrespectful Judgments, and Selfish Demands.

It didn't have the desired effect, now, did it? I'm willing to bet the more you AO/DJ/SD about the game, the further she dug in.




Neglect, in operation, IS abuse - it is just a TYPE of abuse.


Moreso considering this possible attachment to an OM - HOWEVER, that must be CONFIRMED. If there is heavy evidence, then the game has to be left behind as a part of NC - just due to recent advancements in the game where players can track each other through any of the companies games at any time while they are logged on.

If she has taken this interaction too far, all Blizzard games HAVE TO GO.


This where things are going to come down to a harder line.

Is this actually addiction, or is it abuse? There are behavioral and physiological differences between the two.

Unfortunately, with Chris on deployment, he isn't going to be able to integrate behaviors of his own to fight the addiction and make more of a determination.


Due to your situation, Chris - I would absolutely recommend the eyes and ears of family members - no need to be pinpoint specific - just state there are some behaviors she is exhibiting which are causing you concern, and ask them to keep a close eye.

In the meantime, I suggest you do the absolute best Plan A that you can from where you are - phone calls, letters, pictures... whatever you can. You could really be a weirdo, and get yourself a copy of the game! You could hate it, you could like it - it would present an opportunity to interact with her, it would be you showing interest in HER favorite activity - and it would give you the ammunition you are going to need to draw her away from her drug of choice.

When YOU are more interesting than the game, when YOU are more fun to be with than being online - I predict she will come out. I predict that what is ACTUALLY going on is abusive play of this game, due to an empty love bank.

Of course, I'm making this prediction based on exactly how my last year has gone.

I quit playing for 9 months. Picked it back up in November - Not even sure I play in a week what I played in a day while FWW was ignoring me.

In all honesty, whatever the language, the fact that there is ANY CONTACT OUTSIDE OF THE GAME is a huge red flag, and a huge issue. The fact that it's gotten to phone calls and text is disturbing.

Those game logs are great for shock value, but absolutely devoid of any contextual value, or any sort of target.

In fact, reading through them and thinking about them today, they are all guild, party, or raid chat. Private messages would likely be preceded by an "r" keystroke. There is no way to tell who the actual conversation partner(s) are. Dropping game chat logs and going "SHE'S HAVING AND AFFAIR, SHE'S BEHAVING INAPPROPRIATELY!!!!! ZOMG I CAN HAZ CHEEZEBURGERZZZZ!!!!!!!" Is going to be nothing more than a gigantic disrespectful judgment.


So, yeah. Let's do some thought rearrangement here - this woman's gaming is a hobby, no different than; golf, sewing, horse riding, weight lifting, card collecting, reading that horrible author Stephanie Meyer, or anything else other people do to entertain themselves. All of those things have their own languages and expressions.

Oh yeah? Yeah!

If you are a Twi-Hard, I think you are retarded. Sparkly vampires, Volteary blah blah blah Edward and Jason... WHATEVER.

Quite honestly, I wouldn't be supporting your spouse in making further disrespectful judgements against you, rather I would be supporting them in ways to be more attractive than a book, and a more pleasant companion to your spouse.

Alright? Can we resolve this?

****EDIT******

I figured I'd be hearing from you on this, HHH. Allow me to address your rebuttal to my post.

"Filthy" is subjective. But it stands alone when it comes to two people who are married. If it's 'filthy' to a spouse, the gaming spouse needs to address that. I don't want my H to talk sex trash with strangers on the internet. I don't know any wife who does. Do YOU?
(And by the way, I will never back down on my opinion that referencing sucking a guy's d^ick during online gaming is just harmless gameplay.)

Nope. It's POJA all the way at our house. No AO's. No DJ's. We agree that we will not engage in any behavior that involves another person. That includes disgusting sex talk online. There is nothing good that will come from that. Pretty simple.

I'm going to disagree. Most of those comments are tells, and I know who to. I just took out the r's to not confuse those who don't know WoW. And yes she regularly chats via MSN/facebook to these guys outside of WoW, as well as phonecalls (obviously not with me around).

...

So I talked to her for a minute this morning. I was sitting online waiting for her to say something to me for 3 1/2 hours. She did not, yet she was playing the game.

So I confronted her about staying up so late (part of the addiction and one of the promises she broke).

Me: Why you keep staying up so late? It's not good for you or the kids. =/
Her: ummm, I'm pretty sure I'm a grown [censored] woman
Me: You know you promised me you wouldn't get out of hand with wow. I'm pretty sure staying up till 2am when you have to get up with kids is out of hand.
Her: You told me you're not going to be a nosy little [censored] anymore too
Her: I still get up with the kids
Her: And yesterday I stayed up late so I could get up ontime today (**she didn't get up til 1130 am**)
Me: Nosey? "Wife last logged on 12 minutes ago" when I log on at lunch kind of gives it away (**I got to lunch at 12, she is 9 1/2 hours behind me**)
Her: Don't [censored] worry about me
Me: Why call me a [censored] that's not very constructive or nice
Her: I'm fine.
Her: Why try to tell me what I should or shouldn't be doing?
Me: It's my job to worry about you, you're my wife
Her: No it's your job to love me
Her: Not worrying about me staying up late
Me: It's hard to love you when you've broken every promise you've made me lately
Her: ...
Her: what the [censored] ever
Me: I have a right to express my feelings
Me: You think I'm lying about the promise? Name one promise you haven't broken since 2 weeks before I left (when I re-iterated our no WoW agreement, and she promised).
Her: I don't have time for this garbage
**Wife has gone offline**


I'm going to disable her access to the game. It's going to stir up a [censored] storm but whatever. Tired of her actions.

HHH, here's what you need to read.

Talking to her like one of your children who has misbehaved will get you... well, pretty much right where you are.

I called how she would act not matter what I said. I cannot talk to her about anything, no matter how I say it, without her walling up and shutting me out. I called it.

What are the <--- DJ things about?

Actually, thanks for that.


Chris... YOU PLAY?

So you posted all of this, half-conversation, out-of-context - AS SOMEONE WHO PLAYS THE GAME, AND KNOWS HOW THE PLAYERS BEHAVE?

SERIOUSLY?

Chris, are you here to try to save your marriage, or to gather amnmo and learn to control your wife?

Dude, I don't think that will happen. YOU CAN'T CONTROL HER.

You CAN control YOU - you need to work on being more appealing than the game, bud.

Who was playing first? Did you play together?

My FWW could have EASILY been following the same script YOU just posted.

All you are doing is telling her how wrong she is, and why she is so wrong. You are driving her further into the game.

Have you ever had success with getting her attention with this strategy?

I venture to guess NO.

She is your wife, not your child. You are her husband, NOT HER SUPERIOR OFFICER.

If you want to beat this thing, LEARN TO MAKE CONVERSATION PLEASANT.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html

Chris, if you want your marriage to recover, YOU are here, YOU need to be the light. To do that, YOU HAVE TO BE THE SOURCE OF YOUR SPOUSE'S HAPPINESS!

Disrespectful judgments. I linked them in my last post.

The harsh reality about DJ's is that we often make them without the intention of pushing our spouse away, BUT THEY STILL DO.

Simply stated "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Now, posters in this thread can make all the DJ's about your wife and her behavior that they want. Why? Because THEY AREN'T TRYING TO DEPOSIT IN HER LOVE BANK, BUT YOU ARE.

In fact, if you take those posts and decide "hey, I agree with that!" and try to turn it on your wife, all it is going to do is blow up right in your face.

That was the FIRST thing I had to learn about posting here - the opinions of other posters, if used, must be used in ACTION, and/or using EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATION. They are not ammunition for your love-buster cannon, bud.

Well apparently I'm really confused on how to handle this. Communication may not be my strong suit.

Even if I do communicate effectively she still won't admit to having a problem so what's the point?

Chris, HHH is correct. I suggested that you send His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters to the house and tell your wife you want to use this time apart to make your marriage better. I assumed that you had read the information here. If you are not familiar with the love bank principles concerning deposits (meeting emotional needs) and withdrawals (love busters) then you should familiarize yourself with that information.

You say that she won't read the books, but you don't know that until you ask her to respectfully. Something along the lines of... honey, I love you and our children. I don't like the way we have been treating one another and think there is something that could help us. Would you be willing to try something new to develop a marriage in which we could both be happy and in love?

I read the articles on this site. But putting those words into actions isn't easy. To me it's all things I've always been doing. I've always done things, said things, etc to build up my love points with her but the actual value in her bank is still zero.

I know because I have tried. She's intimidated and defensive about anyone else, including doctors and authors, giving her relationship advice. I've had several good books recommended to us and she has read none of them.

Then maybe you should read them and begin applying the principles. When she sees the change in you, maybe she will be more willing to join you in the effort.

You, and I'd gamble to say every poster here before implementing this program.

It's not you, it's a system of misconceptions that lead your M to this point!

Time to 180, dude.

Don't use your conversational opportunities to judge her, use them to TALK TO HER.

You are thousands of miles away for months, your contact with her should be pleasant, not about how she's screwing up.

Ask her how the day went, ask how the kids are, tell her you love her and miss her.

Think about that, Chris.

She's home while you're away, and rather than telling her you lover her and you miss her, you BAWLED HER OUT FOR BEING ON WOW TOO LONG!

Really? Is that how you would like her to talk to you? Probably not!

How would you talk to her if you were trying to make her want to marry you, if she wasn't the mother of your children?

How would you talk to her if you were trying to win her heart?

You aren't liking this interaction? Then lead the way!

Far easier than you think. You did it all when you made her fall in love with you.

Affection;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5010_qa.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5010b_qa.html

Conversation;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.html


The greatest thing you can learn to do, is to L-I-S-T-E-N. Don't offer your opinions on her thoughts unless she asks for it, and when you do, learn how to use POJA and "I love it when/I'd love it if" statements.

Knock her socks off, Chris. And when she stands agape, and asks you how you have changed into this amazing husband... well THEN bring her MB.

Before coming to this site this is exactly what I HAVE BEEN DOING. I've been telling her every day I miss her, I love her, she's beautiful. I've asked her how her days are (which she usually just tells me same ole), I've asked her what her plans are, what she's doing for Chrismas, New Years, etc. I am always interested in her and lavishing her with positive comments.

Do I get the same in return? No.

Everything she has told me she wanted me to be, I have been. Everything she has told me she's wanted me to do, I have done. Even letting her get away with stuff that I can't get away with just to keep her happy. My whole purpose in life, even at my own destruction, has been to keep her happy. No matter the cost. I guess now I'm paying the price for that.


For the most part I am this person. Yeah I say some stupid stuff ocassionally (as noted in my post above) but generally I'm always doing whatever it takes for her. I am dying because I want her to do these same things for me! She really doesn't look at anything I do as positive unless it's expressly stated up front that it is so. If I just talk to her casually she takes it negatively. When I talk to her online if I don't put an LOL, =), or =P on the end of every sentence she takes what I say as negative. She has this perception that I'm extremely negative when it is actually quite the opposite. I wake up at 2am to talk to her and the kids. And I do it regularly. How many people can say they would do that? I'm out here having custom jewelry made for her, buying her and the kids gifts, writing her extremely romantic or heart wrenching poems, constantly posting on her facebook page how awesome she is and how much I love her. But I never get any of this in return. It's like she has walled herself off from me and just wants to be left alone.

How are family members supposed to know what Chris is talking about, and what to keep a close eye on, if he isn't specific?

What is the point of being non-specific?

What is the danger of being specific?

What if they ask him, as they very likely would, what behaviours he was talking about?

Excellent point. While I agree with the previous posts about the DJs and trying to avoid them, I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that the W?W here is apparently addicted to WoW, and perhaps some of the principles for breaking up an A can also be applied here, e.g. exposure and basically doing what it takes to put a wedge between the addict and the source of the addiction.

Dr Harley gives specific advice for resolving conflicts, and it involves tackling the issue directly. If I read your advice correctly, it is that Chris should be woo his wife and win back her love. You seem to be against his addressing the issue of gaming directly, as if doing so is in some way a LB or automatically involves DJs. You tell him to get a copy of the game and learn about it in order to see what he is up against. You advise him to woo her as he did before they were married, and tell her how beautiful she is etc. This will break her interest in gaming.

In the article Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation Dr Harley makes recommendations for discussing an issue over which a spouse is unhappy. He clearly recommends that the issue be tackled head on, but in an environment of pleasantness, cheerfulness and safety, rather than one of angry outbursts and DJs.

In the article When should you tell your spouse "We have a problem"

First, state your complaint as clearly as possible, guaranteeing your spouse's safety by avoiding demands, disrespect or anger. Be cheerful as you discuss the problem, and try to make it brief.

Second, ask for your spouse's perspective on your problem. How does your spouse view this same situation and what might make it difficult for him or her to accommodate you?

Third, brainstorm possible solutions to the problems, looking for a plan that would solve your problem, and at the same time take your spouse's feelings into account. Avoid any solution where one of you gains at the other's expense. Don't give or expect sacrifice because that means that one of you will be losing love units so that the other can gain them. If you sacrifice for each other, in the end, you won't have the mutual love for each other that you want. But also recognize the importance of eventually finding a solution that solves the problem.

Finally, from your list of possible solutions, choose the one that has the enthusiastic agreement of both you and your spouse. That way, the solution will deposit love units into both of your Love Banks simultaneously. If you can't find one that meets that standard, keep brainstorming.

To guarantee your love for each other, you and your spouse must address each other's complaints as soon as they arise. Don't let your problems build up before you find solutions, because the longer you wait, the more love units you lose. But, if you're not careful, the way you go about presenting your problem and trying to find solutions can also cause you to lose love units.

You will not only deposit love units by solving the problems themselves, but you will also deposit love units in the very way you go about solving the problem, if you do it the right way.

Most couples lose love units whenever they have a conflict because they present their complaints with demands, disrespect and anger. And then they look for solutions that help one spouse but hurt the other. That's no way to resolve conflicts, and it's certainly no way to stay in love.

The better you become at stating your complaints with your spouse's feelings in mind, and then finding solutions with the same thoughtfulness, the more you will feel like getting to each problem immediately. But until you get to the place where you feel like presenting your problems as soon as they occur, do it anyway. Don't try to lower your expectations, and don't try to meet your own emotional needs. Instead, learn to become experts at meeting each other's emotional needs. That way you will have what you have always wanted -- a fulfilling and passionate marriage.

Depositing love units is crucial, but so is addressing the problem directly, as soon as it comes up.

Chris said this:

HHH said this:

6-10 hours spent gaming, while bring up three young kids on her own, sounds more like an addiction than a hobby. Chris's wife's determination that she is not giving up sound as if she is addicted.

The most effective way to get a spouse to face the fact of an addiction seems to be to stop supporting it, to the point of leaving the marriage if the addicted spouse will not seek treatment. Meeting ENs merely enables the addiction.

I am not certain that Chris's wife is addicted, and I admit that I am out of my depth when it comes to gaming. However, I don't think it should be accepted that this is just a form of hobby just yet.

Even if it is a hobby, Dr Harley does not support a spouse continuing any form of recreational activity that makes the other spouse unhappy. He recommends tackling the issue head-on, by brainstorming solutions in an environment of safe discussions.

Having been addicted to gaming at one point in my life, I'm pretty sure she is. The 6~10 hours a day is big red flag, along with manner with which she spoke to her H when he brought up the subject.

I think my habit broke when my first computer did. The break while waiting for the replacement gave me a taste of what I'd been missing.

I have no doubt that she is addicted, however, I believe she is addicted more to the social aspect than to the game itself. Although she has declined playing with me before stating that if it doesn't benefit her character she doesn't want to do it.

That 1 - 1 1/2 year break where our "No WoW Ever Again" agreement was in effect was the best time of our marriage. Neither of us had a game dictating our schedules, I didn't have to worry about her being too busy to do anything, and she definitely wasn't AS involved with the other men (she still had, and still does, have daily contact with one named Jon).

Being neither a physician, psychiatrist, nor a clinical psychologist, I'm not going to go as far as make an addiction call on this.

Considering the state of her marriage, and her age, I would edge closer to abuse than addiction.

Chris's last post here confirms it somewhat. I wasn't addicted to the game, I was abusing it - the social aspect became a substitute for FWW.

Addiction and abuse are vastly different animals - addiction is an actual physiological disorder, abuse is a behavioral disorder.

Many of the behaviors are the same, making it difficult to discern between the two. I"m working on something about addiction to post up, but I'm not sure how long that will take, because I'm not just regurgitating what's off the top of my head with it.

Fact of the matter is, that the closest to Plan A Chris can pull off, no matter the underlying cause here, is going to be his best bet. If it's abuse, he can draw her out. If it's addiction, then hopefully Chris can become the new addiction - transference.

Chris frankly speaking from the perspective of a FWW.... the talk and concentration on the game is just so much blowing smoke up the you know what.

The issue here is and has been your wife's inappropriate contact with other men. it really is that simple.

Her FB contact or email with this "Jon" is just not on. The 11/2 years of non gaming didn't worry her... why???? BECAUSE SHE WAS GETTING THE ATTENTION FROM "JON" by another means elsewhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chris this has been and is such a BIG RED FLAG

while I don't want to state as fact without some indication here from your posts..... I'm not at all sure.. and would not be greatly surprised to learn the contact has only been web based over all this time. Your wife has the attitude that as long as there isn't sexual intercourse then its not cheating.

WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Her weakness is attention from other men.. I mean if it was "only social" why aren't there a load more talks with women??..emails with women... FB with women ... there appears no talk in the extended period with anyone but MEN!!!

The game... like FB .. or email.. is only the venue for contact. I suspect that when you insisted it end previously she just switched to FB or email to get her fix from "Jon".

you need to treat this as any other affair.

I know where you are coming from on that - but in respects to what you will learn here, you will find out that some of that may have been off the mark. Either you missed on her most important needs, or you didn't meet them the way she wanted them to be met.

NOT YOUR FAULT. It was HER lack of HONESTY that you weren't doing things in a fashion that deposited love units most efficiently.

You also have to consider that if you were engaging in Love Busters, that your withdrawals outweighed your deposits.

When you say she walled herself in, that refers to the marital state of withdrawal. It's possible you have drawn her out from time to time (ever have those moments with her that seem to "shine?").

You are right that sacrifice has been a bad thing.

None of this justifies or excuses her seeking the attention of other men, even if she is insisting it's just "friendship," for her to do so when she is not happy is reckless, and dangerous even when she is happy.

No matter if she is embroiled in an affair or an addiction, to break it, and after you break it, and for every day after; you are going to have to learn to meet her needs, and to avoid love busters.

The absolute BEST thing you can do at this point, if you can't get her to communicate her needs better, is to do everything in your power to avoid love busters.

From your posts, your two BIGGEST LB behaviors are disrespectful judgments (which you probably do more often than you think, and have not recognized them as so; most people don't), and angry outbursts.

At the VERY MINIMUM, if you can't make large, efficient deposits, YOU HAVE TO STOP MAKING WITHDRAWALS.

I agree but how do I get her to understand this? How do I make her understand that her actions are destroying our marriage and pushing me away? How do I do it without pushing HER away (which is my current issue). To her it's just friendly chat, harmless talk, etc and as soon as I mention it (like I tried before) she says I don't trust her, I'm being controlling, etc. I want it to stop, I just don't know how to do it without making the situation worse.




Our relationship does lack honesty. I have had her tell me before that she is falling out of love with me, that our spark just isn't there. But she won't tell me this until we have a gargantuous argument that is really just her bottled up feelings, emotions, etc of things I have apparently done wrong for a while that she never confronted be about until tension is already high and a bunch of them have built up. I know in one of the Doc's articles he mentions addressing issues as swiftly as possible. I am trying to do this, but she doesn't. Not to mention getting her to accept that I have issues is a task upon itself. She does not feel that any of my complaints are justifiable but I am supposed to follow hers with 100% certainty and trust or she will think I don't trust her. This is NOT FAIR. Not in the least.

Proof she's playing the game while the kids are play unsupervised:

From 1 Jan 2011



From 2 Jan 2011

















And these logs range from [02/01/2011, 12:04] to [03/01/2011, 00:56]. She didn't even get out of bed until 11:30'sh. My daughter told me, lol.

Well, I'll take the plunge. I think common sense is all that is needed here, not school smarts:

This is an activity that is chewing up close to 50% of some of her days. 50%! With three little kids!

She continues to play, knowing the unhappiness she is causing her husband.

She continues to play while doing chores such as making dinner.

She stays up at night to continue to play.

She promised to stop or curtail her gameplay and broke that promise. She became belligerent when she was confronted about the broken promise.

I would call this an addiction. I told Chris in an earlier post that she will shriek and be beyond anger if it is. He seems to agree that she will react this way.

But does it matter how we define it?

Chris, she has no respect for you. One of the things I noticed when you express yhour concern for how much time is spent on WoW, she calls you a "little b1tch". This is how a teenager responds...this shows emotional immaturity.

Sorry, man. I gotta run to work. But thanks for your service to our country!

Thanks. I do it for my family. If I could just get my wife to understand she's not the only person in this relationship with feelings it would be 100% better from just that. But I can't express any feeling or opinion without being called controlling or selfish. It's driving me insane!

I hope u are saving these logs you can use it against her in court saying she is not a fit mother and neglects them because she is an addict of wow. You won't believe how many people destroy there lives because of that game.

Call a lawyer now and tell him what ur rights are regarding this addiction

In addition to what Saphire said, you can also use these logs when you talk to her parents about not only your concern with teh way she is speaking to other men but also about the sheer amount of itme she is spending in the game and not concentrating on the kiddos.

Chris, she does know this. She just doesn't CARE. She is behaving exactly like an addict: They care about nothing but their drug and they will do absolutely anything to protect it, from being sweet and manipulative to being emotionally and physically abusive.

She is abusing you through name-calling and abandonment, and she is abusing the kids through neglect. She's not going to change unless and until she breaks her drug habit. Have you talked to the chaplain yet?

I agree.

My appointment is tomorrow morning (my time obviously).

Another suggestion, Chris,
Dr Harley and his wife have a radio show. If you can't call in, you can also send in an email and I think they answer some emails on the show. You can listen in on the internet, either live or archive.

I thought this would be a good topic for him since Dr. Harley has a background in addiction and you have gotten different advice about tackling the addiction vs infidelity issues. I would love to hear his thoughts on this.

Chris,

Former AF pilot here. My WXW had poor boundaries with other men as well. There was no one specific OM. There were several she flirted with online through social networking.

What happened? She emotionally checked out of our marriage, used the internet to go on dates with men, got physical with one of them.

That's the path you're on.

You need an intervention to deal with this addiction because that is exactly what it is and it's going to take something massive to stop this.

Intervene through cutting off the internet and putting passwords on your computer, but you have a very serious problem on your hands and something drastic has to happen. You have a lawsuit waiting to happen when someone else's kid gets hurt because she was off playing a game while she was supposed to be watching them.

Um, because substance/behavioral abuse and substance/behavioral addiction are both different physiologically and in how they are treated. An ADDICT is a physiologically different person than an ABUSER.

Fun fact; YOU DON'T GET TO DEFINE IT.

If she is an ABUSER - then if Chris is able to restore his marriage, the game could be gone and the risk would be over

If she is is an ADDICT - Chris could very well be facing the risk of her experiencing transference to ANOTHER ADDICTION.



Chris isn't being honest with the board - he's got his own LB behavior to own up to here. He is willing and ready to tell us everything SHE is doing wrong, and provide evidence to support his fight against her, but he isn't entirely owning his own poop. He posts up a moticom of his own LB behaviors in the conversation, and then everyone demon-hunts the WW and ignores what he is doing. Hello? If your H/W spoke to you in that manner RIGHT NOW you would flip. BOTH sides of these exchanges are toxic.

Additionally, because of how the group-think on this board operates - everyone is all up-in-arms about the OM situation - or all up in arms about this or that - all ready to bicker blah blah blah...

Ok Chris - how long has this OM situation been going on?

The GAME has been going on, by your admission, for 6 years; THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF YOUR MARRIAGE.

Has she played like this THE ENTIRE TIME, or only since the OM came into the picture?

Has she ever suffered from depression?

You know this isn't what Dr H says about addiction, right? It has been said his plans don't work on someone who has an active addiction. Again, I would love to hear whether Dr H thinks this is an addiction and whether the same theory applies (addictive behavior vs substance addiction)...

Is this pattern of behaviour recognised by experts in the field?

Is it a medically-recognised fact that alcoholics who stop drinking transfer their addiction to something else?

Has it been extensively documented that "abusers" - e.g. sexual abusers - give up their abuse if other aspects of their lives are repaired?

Where can we read more about these patterns of behaviour, and the distinctions between addicts and abusers? Where do you get your information?

How can you tell that he "isn't being honest with the board? What knowledge do you have about Chris's behaviour that isn't written here?

As for demon-hunting the WW and ignoring Chris: how is encouraging Chris to stop his wife's wayward behaviour "demon hunting"? If that is what we are doing on this thread, then recognising the wrong of betrayal and the abuse of infidelity is always "demon hunting". If that's the case, then Dr Harley should not have set up his anti-infidelity programme, and society in general should not see adultery as a serious wrong.

Shouldn't they be? Is infidelity not so bad that we need to get up in arms about OM situations?

HHH, for some reason you are trying to persuade this board that Chris's wife's behaviour isn't all that bad. According to you:

-She is not an addict; she is an abuser, and the cure for that is for Chris to do a better job of meeting her ENs.

-Chris is not being honest with the board about his LB behaviours.

-Chris's wife is being demonised by this board. We are up in arms about the OM situation because of group-think.

All this is being said about a man who is serving in a war while his wife spends 6-10 hours per day gaming, while somewhat neglecting their children.

I like the idea of Chris emailing Dr. Harley for advice on the radio show. I too would be interested to know what his advice would be.

I don't believe that Chris is being dishonest. I do, however, believe he is unaware of his own love busting behavior. His wife needs to make some changes, but so does he.

You know what LB I saw? When he said "I wish she realized she's not the only one with feelings'. Or it was worded something like that.

He asked why she was staying up so late playing the game and she called him a little b1tch in return. He confronts her that he's concerned about her time and she rakes him over the coals. It's very very immature.

I tend to agree with SusieQ Chris.... and we here have far too little real knowledge to say its a separate addiction or not to the game site.

HOWEVER ....

we do have enough info from you to make a very good case that your wife is in the middle of a EA.... at least an EA.

My gut still says this all about the attention and emotional attachment she has for this "Jon" and perhaps a few other males she met on the game site.

WHY?

Ok you have told us she gave up this WoW ... is that right ...WoW? ... for a year and a half. Yes not excited about doing so but she did .... FACT.

Lets look at what she did not give up .....

continued contact with "Jon" and or the other males she had met on the game site via FB and email or text ...whatever. You have said this as well ... FACT

I would make a large bet that her FB and email and perhaps text contact with "Jon" and the other gamer males was daily and probably multiple times a day. Addicts DO NOT give up their fix so easily... yes you may think it was a hard fight om the WoW issue but to many here I would imagine the vets would say it was far too easy ..... again ... WHY????

because I feel she really only gave up a pleasurable and perhaps easily interactive method of getting her FIX ... that is the OM Jon and or the other males.

I wonder Chris.. did you ask her to give up contact with "Jon" and the other males the same time you asked her to give up Wow back then??? If you did I bet she gave a million reasons why not and that "she wasn't going to anyway so there".

Chris this has ALL the hallmarks of a typical affair.... the attachment to the OM or OM's as the case may be is as the good Dr has said.. very similar to addictive behaviour for drugs.. alcohol ... you name it... in form and behaviour.

I have read on this site over and over where a WS has spent hour after hour after hour on FB or email or text doing exactly what your wife is doing now on the game site..... its just another method to contact the OM. It may be that the interactive game system is just more attractive to her.

I really want to just ensure that you realise that it is not just the game....its also clearly the OM or men

I would encourage you strongly to get expert advice because we are not experts. Ring the good doc perhaps... or email ...

aussiewife, do you know anyone with a WoW addiction? The only reason I ask is I think my response would be in line with what you are posting if I didn't know anyone with this type of addiction...

From what I have seen IRL, it is different than FB/computer abuse. I researched it at the time my H was starting to become addicted to it and from what I remember it is a pretty well documented problem, people losing jobs, getting divorced, and just basically playing all day with these MMOs. I think they even have some rehab centers dedicated to this type of addiction...

His wife's responses were immature. Chris said that he and his wife have been together since they were 14. They were immature when their relationship began, and it seems possible that they could have developed some immature habits in their relationship.

I will not defend his wife's behavior, because I think she is crossing a line that shouldn't be crossed, and it needs to be addressed. However, when a spouse comes here claiming that they are doing everything correctly in the relationship, I can't help but wonder if they aren't overlooking something. Chris said a few pages back that he has always made regular deposits in his wife's love bank but it's still empty. If he is making deposits to an empty account, then there has to have been some withdrawals made. He is either underestimating his deposits, making deposits that don't register with his wife (not her emotional needs), or unaware of his withdrawals (the love busters that are pushing her away).

Plan A is a legitimate course for dealing with an affair. Plan A includes making deposits and avoiding withdrawals. I don't think suggesting Chris look at those things is contradictory advice.

Indeed, Plan A involves meeting ENs that the WS will allow the BS to meet. However, it also involves a "stick". It is not an unconditional meeting of ENs without directly addressing the affair.

The stick involves exposing the affair to key people - like this wife's parents - and demanding that the affair end. It involves pointing out that the behaviour is damaging to the marriage. The affair MUST be directly addressed.

I agree with you 100% SugarCane and said so in the first sentence of my second paragraph.

Yes, it's called smoking, and bad relationships. It's called social addiction within a 12-step program. The addiction is replaced with a healthier behavior. When the addict craves, they fill that craving with a sponsor or a meeting.


Out of context. You have abuse like sexual abusers, then you have abuse like alcohol/drug abusers - which is different than addiction physiologically.

This is the definition of abuse:


And that is the MEDICAL definition of abuse. Sound like this woman? Alrighty. Abuse is a behavioral pattern, which strongly mimics addiction, but addiction is a chronic, treatable, incurable disease.


http://www.slideshare.net/jschwartz/physiology-of-addiction-by-carl-christensen

It's an hour-long presentation with powerpoint by an MD/PHD on the physiology of addiction - in the presentation a link is provided for further sources of information. It briefly goes over behavioral addiction (food addiction/compulsive eating) but does give the above definition, and compares and contrasts abuse versus addiction.



Another poster filled it; maybe it's not direct "dishonesty" per se, but an inability or ignorance of his own LB behaviors - specifically DJ behaviors.


Because Chris believes his wife's behavior is wrong, because he already believes that this relationship of hers is adulterous, and through questions asked has provided his own evidence to support his feeling (which is unnecessary, if he feels it's inappropriate it is) what's needed isn't how horrible his WW is - there are a plethora of threads available to the despicable actions of waywards - what he needs is A PLAN. Or Plan A.

Shouldn't they be? Is infidelity not so bad that we need to get up in arms about OM situations?


- Abuser/Addict remains to be seen. The strategy is to litmus test through MB principals the best he can.

- Previously addressed; dishonesty either by omission or misconception. He probably sees DJ behavior as "loving correction." I'm sure if he were to take a good, hard look at what DJ's entail, he could provide his own examples for himself, as well as for her, other than his chat log.

- Group-think; staying in agreement with the majority of the group or it's perceived leaders as such to avoid conflict. Yes, I think that happens a lot. Every day, every where. It's much easier to run with the herd, than to be ostracized for saying "Hey guys! There's a freaking cliff in front of us!" All it really makes you is a normal person most of the time.

The closing paragraph of this reply... hmmmm. Fits the descriptors of abuse, no?

The rest of it comes from personal experience; I was a WoW abuser - fitting exactly the behaviors of the definition of abuse, as well as a lot of the behaviors of Chris's wife here.

I behaved that way because? Because my love bank was EMPTY, I was withdrawn and depressed. I turned to a game to find happiness. I quit the day I got ILYBINILWY, and didn't play ANY games until the end of November.

I went from 6-10 hours a day of play, to 6-10 hours a week... on some weeks. I've gone a few weeks without playing at all. I don't "miss" it when I'm not playing, no withdrawal - but having something to fill my time when I'm NOT with my wife has helped me not go bat-poo crazy any more.


SC - kinda getting disruptive here - if you have any more objections or questions, post it up in the thread linked in my sig. You or anyone else. I will be glad to discuss anything you like. And if I get annoying, or feel disrespected, please feel free to leave a note on my FWW's thread with a request to have me smacked.

Exodus, why are you beating this man up? Why are you insisting that he is doing something wrong?

This is how he describes his own behaviour:

His saying "stupid stuff occasionally" does not explain why his sterling efforts at being a loving husband are being met with comments such as "I'll do as I please" (or whatever it was). His angry outbursts are caused by her independent behaviour in breaking their agreement for her not to play games, and by her dangerous sexual "banter" with other men. The solution is for her to STOP these behaviours. They are wrong in a marriage, full stop.

You said

It is entirely possible that her involvement with other men on gaming sites and Facebook is blocking her reception of any EN-meeting that he does. This is what happens in affairs. A BS can go all out to meet ENs and yet will not succeed in making any deposits, because the WS is allowing her ENs to be met by someone else. While she is doing this, she is closing her love bank to her husband.

We should stop battering Chris, who is away fighting a war, about what he is doing wrong. His wife is on the internet conducting sex talk to men for several hours a day, when she is both MARRIED (i.e. not supposed to be doing that) and A MOTHER (i.e. she is supposed to be looking after her very young children).

Hey chris, I havent posted much but sapph keeps me informed on your thread.

I had to deal with her playing WoW too. We started playing together for UA time 4 years ago when we were stuck at home with an infant and no where to go. It slowly turned into the same situation you ar going through. I tried to play to meet needs, but even though I was sitting in a chair next to my wife I could not see the things she would type on her screen. I still had responsibilities so I limited myself to 2 hours after the kids went to bed, but sapph was on from about 4 in the afternoon, when I got home, to midnight or 1 am.

I had to treat this as an affair. She is not only addicted to the game, which has its rewards, but to the immature men living in their parents basement. This same situation changed my wife into a 16 year old girl with no responsibilites and disrespecting me also. I became a doormat trying to make her happy, but my plan to try and make her happy did not work.

This is what I did:
I cut off her WoW because I was paying for it. It took 3 months for the subscription to expire, but why would I want to pay for her adultery? I told my WW that she can pay for it if she wants it, but I will not.

I blocked FB using a browser blocker and my router.

I installed the keylogger, which you have, and I also installed the elephant add on to wow to get both sides of the conversations. (must have access to the computer and her account for it to work.

We mutaully agreed to limit her playing time to a couple hours. (even now I think I should have blocked WoW altogether by blocking a port or IP on the router and saying, huh, the server must be down.)

I cancelled our joint bank account and moved all the bills and direct deposit into another bank. I was only going to fund my family, not the adultery.

I figure these are things that I did to protect myself, not control my WW. My WW could still go out to the library and use FB, I couldn't stop her doing that.

I then did a massive exposure to all her family and my family and our friends online. I attached some conversations that I recorded from hacking into her FB account, but I HIGHLY suggest to not do that, just let others know you have evidence of her cheating ways.

Next I got rid of all my DJ's. Some of the subtle jokes that I would comments were just downright mean and nasty. I would also treat my WW like a kid. Then I turned on the charm trying everything to recreate that dating atmosphere that we fell in love with. I made her cookies and wrote her i love you notes. Made her breakfast in bed, and all those wonderful things.

If she stayed up all night talking to these guys online I would get up and let her know, with a smile on my face, that her actions are ruining our marriage. Then go back to bed. I would not condone what she was doing to our marriage and our family.

That there is how I implemented my carrot and stick. I tried my best to meet her needs, and still deliver the stick without being the bad guy. I was not the bad guy trying to save my marriage. I was protecting myself, my kids, and my family from adultery.

There are things you can do to deliver an effective carrot and stick. I left the bad guy image up to my MIL and SIL's, they have no reservations telling her she was throwing her life away, and I am thankful for them for doing that.

It's not about battering Chris, nor about justifying anything she is doing.

It's about him creating the biggest, juiciest Plan A "carrot" that he possibly can so applying the stick is effective.

I'm certain he recognizes AO behavior, but isn't quite spectacular at recognizing DJ behavior. As such, he sees himself seeing "stupid little things" (AO) here and there, and has missed the DJ behavior.

This IS NOT A JUSTIFICATION FOR HER BEHAVIOR, nor is it an excuse. He needs to recognize these behaviors SO HE CAN STOP DOING IT. He doesn't need to regret them, or apoligize. He didn't know. A lot of people didn't know. A lot of people pulled off several LB behaviors over and over, and when their marriage hit a crisis, they went "But, but, but... I was TEH BEST SPOUSE EVAR!?!?!?!"

I thought I was. I could describe myself before my withdrawal just as Chris does - but I missed the mark. A LOT OF PEOPLE MISSED THE MARK.

THIS DOES NOT JUSTIFY HER BEHAVIOR.

What is going on is unarguably horrible - but the best thing to do is not to wallow in his wife's actions. It is to arm him properly to fight the war at home as best he can in his current situation.

My intent is not to batter Chris, it is to help Chris improve his marriage by evaluating his own behavior. Don't most threads discuss that both spouses are responsible for the state of a marriage while only the wayward is responsible for an affair?

I know all about men fighting wars. I have been through deployments with my husband. His wife is NOT doing right, but I am not sure if Chris bringing the stick down hard on her is the correct option.

I have seen how some military wives take advantage of a husband being away. It can be ugly. She has a lot of power right now. His command is not going to shorten his tour so he can deal with this. He is not in the home. She has power of attorney to make any financial decisions she wants to. She has his children. It isn't a normal situation.

I am sorry if I offended you, SugarCane. I think we are both on the same side.

Bingo.

Making DJ's to my wife about her TV time DID NOT WORK. It failed over and over and over. It failed me for 6 years until I withdrew.

Until I withdrew, I made enough deposits to keep her in intimacy/conflict - but after I withdrew, all that was left were withdrawals.

You guys are both right. To get the best plan A you have to improve yourself. Stop the LB's and and provide the juciest carrot to the biggest donkey. I did alot to improve myself, to gain the respect from my wife, and I had to do it while enduring one of the worst pains of my life. I figured I had to learn how to be a better husband so if this marriage ends in a divorce then the next one will be better because i am a better person.

I think Chris gets the idea that he has to try to be better and he has to do it now, but there is this affair that needs to be addressed. All of which is encopassed in a successful plan A.

Exodus, you absolutely did not offend me! I have no personal investment in this thread, and I am not taking disagreements as a personal slight to me!

I only rebut arguments on a thread because I believe that if harmful, wrong or misguided advice is being given (in my opinion, of course), it must be challenged there on the thread. I don't think that such advice should rest unchallenged, because doing so gives the impression that the advice is sound.

I only make challenges if I can support my argument with extracts from Dr Harley's articles. It is not a matter of my personal agreement or disagreement. I'm not here to tell the poster what I think, because I have no expertise of my own. I am only here to help with the interpretation of Dr Harley's writings.

You said

Indeed they do. However, when a spouse arrives here because an affair is active, we must first stop the affair and THEN change the conditions of the marriage. The affair is an emergency. If it isn't dealt with urgently, the marriage will end, perhaps because the WS leaves or perhaps because the BS gives up. And since Chris's wife alone is responsible for the affair, then her behaviour must be stopped as a matter of urgency.

Dr Harley's Plan A strategy involves meeting ENs where possible, because it is likely that a void in that area contributed to the WS's decision to have an affair. Part of Plan A also involves a stick, though, because Dr Harley recognises that meeting ENs during an affair is futile 85% of the time. It gives the WS a sense of satisfaction by having the ENs met by both the spouse and the OP. It feeds cake-eating. It can actually prolong the affair.

The greatest importance of Plan A, according to Dr Harley, is to set the stage for Plan B, which will become necessary 85% of the time, because the WS will not stop the affair with Plan A alone. A good Plan A makes Plan B more effective. THAT is its main effect as a weapon.

Dr Harley does not give the advice that has been given here, that a BS should look only at his own behaviour and not make demands of the WS. I don't have time to link the newsletter now, but he has specifically said that a BS should demand the end of an affair. He also does not suggest that addictive or abusive behaviour can be stopped by a BS meeting ENs.

Dr Harley's work suggests that ending an affair is the priority, and that the serious business of meetings ENs comes during the restoration phase.

He does not say "you cannot control your wife" as has been said here. He says that if an affair does not stop, the solution is to separate. He believes in removing oneself from the source of abuse, and not in taking the focus off the abuse and placing it on oneself.

I see a lot of distortion of his advice on this thread. But of course we are on the same side, Exodus, and I appreciate your post.

Hi Chris....

I wish I had more time to offer some advice, but my plate is very full right now.

I did wish to point out that you need to get the book, "Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Willard Harley, Jr.

This book needs to be read cover to cover before you implement any plans.

Making a plan without reading this book is akin to a night mission without having night vision available. You can make too many mistakes.

The biggest disadvantage you have is that you are unable to provide ANY Undivided Attention. You cannot execute much of a Plan A without that being available. I'm sure from the many varied comments you've received that you can already see this obstacle.

There are two posters that I can think of that were military and had some great threads worth reading. One is "Mortarman" and the other is "Amazin". Do a search and see if you can find their names and then click on their posts and start going backwards to read their stories. They did a stellar job and delivered solid MB advice along the way too. When I have some more time I'll try to remember a few of the others that have been where you are and post their names or links to their threads..... I'm sure that would be helpful for you!

I would like to add that, IMHO, unless you ask your wife to STOP her EA behaviors, they will continue unimpeded. And until you ask her to STOP her WoW habits, they will also continue unimpeded. If she continues either of them after you ask her to stop....... You're best bet would be to cover yourself in any way possible while you're away. Then once you rotate home.... The MB plans will have a better shot at working! Best wishes!

Just my .02

I have not distorted any MB principle. Nor did I say this is Chris' fault or he should not make any demands concerning her online activies.

How does a person in plan A dangle the carrot if they don't know how to fill ENs or recognize LBs

Wow lot of replies while I was sleeping. Can't really hit them all so going to touch these last two.


Which is what I'm trying to do with evidence. Talking with her won't work, as already proven. Coming down on her hard and cutting her off will not work, tried it before. I think this situation is going to fall just like the last one. Giving her the evidence I have gathered and then asking her if she is willing to work on making our marriage RIGHT or if she wants out, because the evidence supports the latter.



Exactly. I'm at a severe disadvantage for fighting this battle. My wife has already stated that even though I have no intentions of her still playing when I come home from my tour (for obvious reasons) she would still like to play.

I want to try to curtail this issue way before that but all I have is time.

Will you get RR leave, Chris?

BINGO!! I am just catching up, but hfld is correct. It is impossible to meet the needs of an addict so your best bet is tough love. And that goes double in this case since she is addicted to online games. You need to take strong action.

This is a very tough situation because you are separated which makes it extremely hard to fix this situation while you are away. About the best you can do for now is bust up her bullcrap from afar and take steps to protect your kids.

Chris, I would most certainly not ask her if she wants out. I would focus more on stopping her destructive behavior. And I agree that talkig with her won't work. You can't reason with a falling down drunk.

I am just catching up, but do you have any close relatives who can step in and help? Have you exposed the affair everywhere?

Yeah in June.

Since she is addicted to online games, I would go easy on the carrot part of Plan A since it is impossible to meet the needs of an addict. That is a giant sucking black hole. While he does need to avoid lovebusters, he needs to focus on the STICK part of Plan A. Need meetin a destructive addict is only used as an opportunity for more exploitation.

Parents are about it. Hers I have tried before an accomplished nothing, my dad is just going to tell me to leave her. He doesn't deal with b.s.

The problem is that they live apart. I doubt there has been much lovebusting at all. It is almost impossible to stay in love when you are separated like they are. Adultery is epidemic in military marriages for this reason.

Can you get an early leave? What do her parents say about it? Do they know what she is doing?

Agree. The affair/addiction needs to be stopped before he starts working on the marriage. THAT is where his focus should lie for now. Then once her affair/online addiction is arrested they can work on the marriage.


From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

No early leave and her parents will probably do the same thing they did last time: Nothing.

Can you tell me exactly what was said to them and what their response was? Are there any other relatives who could help? What about your mother?

I showed her parents the logs and where she was telling this guy everything from our finances to our sex life and where she was talking about them having sex, meeting up, etc, told them how addicted she was to the game, that she was neglecting the kids and I, etc.

No other relatives nearby and my mother is deceased. My step-mom is disabled so she can't do anything without my dad.

Did you ask them to help her and do something to protect your kids?

Of course I did. I already talked about this and what happened. She blew enough smoke up their butts until they backed off.

I went back and found a post where they blew it off, where she told them it was a joke. Why can't you contact them AGAIN and give them the facts and ask them to intervene?

Chris, since there may have been some confusion as we have talked about carrots, sticks, and Plan A, this is how Dr. Harley explains it:

So, then, what is plan A and plan B?

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse) helps identify and prevent instances of thoughtlessness.

A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.

In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.

I mentioned earlier that the betrayed spouse should avoid selfish demands, disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts during plan A. And I also suggested following the Policy of Joint Agreement. But when it comes to infidelity, I should clarify what I mean by selfish demands and describe a notable exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement.

How can a betrayed spouse insist that the wayward spouse end the affair unless a demand is made? The answer is found in the way I define a selfish demand.

Demands carry a threat of punishment -- an if-you-refuse-me-you'll- regret-it kind of thing. In other words, you may dislike what I want, but if you don't do it, I'll see it it that you suffer even greater pain.

To insist that the wayward spouse end the affair should not be made with the threat of punishment ("I'm make you suffer if you don't end it"), but rather with the simple fact that it's the most painful experience you've ever had in your life, and if the affair is not ended, your relationship must end with either a separation or divorce. To end the marital relationship is not punishment: It's to protect your own mental and physical health.

The most important exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement is that when your health and safety are at risk, the default condition (doing nothing until an enthusiastic agreement is reached) should not be followed.

As an obvious example of when the policy is inappropriate, if your spouse is threatening your life with physical abuse, you should not continue to subject yourself to that threat while trying to find a mutual enthusiastic agreement. You should leave your spouse immediately even though your departure would not be with your spouse's enthusiastic agreement.

The same type of problem exists when a betrayed spouse is subjected to the emotional suffering caused by infidelity. Plan A has emotional consequences that should not be ignored. If left in plan A too long, long-term mental and physical damage can occur.

Another exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement when confronting infidelity is what I've called, "exposure." I highly recommend that while in plan A you tell your friends, family, the lover's spouse, your pastor, and possibly your wayward spouse's employer that your spouse is having an affair. It's a very controversial recommendation, and a clear violation of the Policy of Joint Agreement. But I've found exposure to be one of the most effective ways to end an affair quickly while in plan A.

But your effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, and even exposure, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Chris, one important thing you should note in the article in that Exodus posted is that the goal is to "express a willingness to meet those needs AFTER THE AFFAIR HAS ENDED."


It is usually not possible to meet needs when a spouse is in an affair so the first order of business is to DEMAND she end her affair<s>. Demand she end the affair and expose it wide and far. Exposure



Since she is also addicted to online games, you have another dynamic here that places this in the same category as other addictions. In the case of alcoholism, for example, Dr Harley does not recommend Plan A AT ALL because it is impossible to meet the needs of an addict. You are in a sticky situation because you are not there and Plan B would avail you nothing so you have to be careful and ride this out without engaging in sacrifice, IMO.

Additionally, Plan A does not stand for [censored] kissing, nor does it involve SACRIFICE:

Most recent conversation (Bold is me, italics are my small input on her statements to clarify them):

In a related note to my messages (I asked her how I rate at meeting her emotional needs). Is there anything you do, that you shouldn't, because I'm not meeting one of your emotional needs? Like WoW, I know this has a huge social aspect. Did you start playing again because of your friends or because I'm not the conversationalist you want me to be?
I started plying again because I'm bored
I'm here all day by myself and I enjoy WoW.
It's an outlet for me to be retarded. For me to piss people off and for me not to care.
lol.
Hear me out. Why start playing again, when you the issues it caused us before, and knowing you would have to break a promise to to me to do it. One of the things I've been reading is the policy of joint agreement.
Where if one of us has to suffer or sacrifice or the other it shouldn't be done.
Because I told you what happened before is not going to happen again.
and you can't trust me.
We should only do things we enthusiastically agree on
keep listening
You just simply don't want m to play because you're being selfish
Didn't know you weren't done
You knew I was going to disagree but you insisted anyways, and with a "my way or the highway" attitude
These types of things are harmful to our relationship
You Know I'm not trying to be controlling, but instead I'm expressing my feelings and you are not giving them any merit
It's important for us to weigh all possible options
Just like there is no remorse for you and porn, Ifeel the same way about wow
But because you are you, you are entitled to have things back, when I cannot
It's not fair
I need you to understand that there are many situations in our relationship like this
These two just being the most obvious and pressing
This isn't compromising battle
You know how [censored] that crap makes me feel
Exactly
Yet you still press on
There was no compromise on either battle
And CLAIM to car
It was your way or no way
no agreement
No it was porn or me
And it as WoW or me
That was the agreement. That was BEFORE WoW.
You remitted, why can't I?
It's not fair
You have to understand this from my point of view
Because me playing doesn't have any emotional effects like porn does on me
Not as a victim, because you aren't one
YES it does!
You just ignore the emotional effects it has on me
I'm not sitting here jacking off rubbing myself in ecstasy to someone.
The fact that you didn't ask about how you are meeting my emotional needs proves this (referring to the email I sent her I mentioned above)
That is cheating to me
I'm done with this [censored].
I'm sick of you pressing this garbage
And you talking to other guys inappropriately is cheating to me
You're comparing oranges to green beans
No stop and listen, I'm not arguing
I haven't been
I HAVE NOT BEEN
No I'm done
All I want to know is why there is a difference in judgment
the punishment should be the same for both of us and we should both give up equally
otherwise it's not fair
Because if you still want to get laid with me then porn can't be involved (it isn't and hasn't been for years)
Because it breaks me
It tears me apart and makes me SO self critical
It kills you emotionally, I understand that.
That's why I stopped
IT [censored] DOMINATES ME
Why can't you understand that wow kills me emotionally
I would rather slice my wrists than watch porn
Am I not entitle to feelings also?
Why do your feelings get priority over mine?
We should be equal
I'm not having this conversation
They aren't equal
Like I sad
I'm not sitting here cheating on you and rubbing myself making MY significant other WHO HAS BEGGED FOR YEARS AND YEARS for me to stop feel like complete garbage.
It isn't my fault you can't have porn (umm ??)
I did beg for years, and I'm still begging
It's all the other [censored] that happened before with it
fine
You still continue to peruse this game and emotional connections with other men that destroy ME emotionally.
Take the only [censored] thing that I have to do
and shove it up your [censored]
Because that's the only thing that's going to make you "FEEL BETTER"
cause you're a selfish son of a [censored]
I Hope you're [censored] happy
Wanting equality is not selfish
Wife has gone offline


Then she sent me this message:


She keeps bringing up porn even though I gave it up years ago, FOR HER, because she said she would try harder to please my SEXUAL emotional need (which she hasn't). I still abstain from porn, but she still gives me crap for it. She doesn't trust that I have quit even though I have for years.

It's not that she doesn't believe you stopped, but that she needs to trot out your porn to divert your attention from her WOW game. It is a manipulative trick.

I think we can all agree that this is not a normal reaction for someone who isn't heavily emotionally invested in something.

This is what I meant by how she'll blow when you cut her off that game. And I really think you should consider cutting her off and getting your inlaws on board with this. Can you appeal to them as grandparents? Show them the letter she sent you and tell them that you believe their grandchildren are being neglected. Enlist their support to be on-site for those kids (AND their daughter and son-in-law!)

I plan to enlist the help of her parents and mine. I'm also printing all this stuff to take to the chaplain with me.

Oh, and I did cut her off:


The fact you are still dwelling on porn and actually think I'm still watching tells me YOU are the one still having trust issues. Time to move on babe. You can't hold something against that I don't do.
I didn't say you were still watching but that's your argument. Why else would we be arguing over something so stupid.
Are you pulling your [censored] again about not letting me connect?
Yep, you told me I could have it. So did you lie to me on that too?
I was being a [censored]. I don't know why I need to beg to play WoW. It's stupid that you'd rather me be bored to [censored]. [censored] I'm not doing anything but taking care of our family here. Not [censored] around like all the other military wives, etc... Give me a break.
You're not begging to play. You're begging to break a promise, to hurt my feelings, and ignore my emotional needs WITHOUT REPROCUSSION. When YOU stop being so selfish and realize I have feelings and emotions too, you MIGHT be able to understand why it bothers me so much.
You're being a controlling [censored] ignoring me too. SO?! This you can do alone. I told you I'm tired of this garbage. I WILL NOT stand for it. You fail to realize that I have your bank account. What's stopping me from skipping town to get away from YOU? Nothing. Not a [censored] thing. Straighten the [censored] up. I never said you didn't matter. Never. I just don't think that comparing this to THAT has any equality when THAT made your wife want to leave you, kill herself, or just [censored] run away from it all. To wear baggy [censored] clothes, not even eat, much less get out of bed in the morning etc. If you want your porn sure, have it. I'll go back to that person.
You fail to realize everything I have had to overcome despite you just wanting to [censored] jerk off. I told you I'm not bullshitting you. I WILL [censored] LEAVE YOU.
You need to get the [censored] on skype I'm tired of [censored] typing to your stupid [censored].
I can't I'm at work remember.
You seem to think the torture I put you through is worse than the torture you put ME through. I'm sorry I'm not ready to let go just like you aren't.
Expect papers. I told you a million times stop this [censored] controlling crap. I'm done. You're absolutely ridiculous. Have your porn but you will not have me.
I do not want the porn, and it seems to be your only defense. You have no valid arguments to justify why I cannot get equality in this relationship.

That was a better approach than your last posted conversation.

Chris, her parent's reaction is why I stated that those chat logs from WoW just aren't going to cut the mustard.

You say she calls/texts the OM, right? If you are exposing this, then what you need isn't the chat logs. Watch the FB account, and call your Cell carrier, and see what you can do about getting call/text logs.

I am with AT&T and I can review the current month online at any time - I still do.

Massive amounts of texts and/or long phone calls are going to be better evidence to her parents. Make it concrete that; you do not agree with this "friendship," that you have communicated it to her, and that she continues this friendship.

Does she use ventrillo or skype? If so that could provide a more difficult avenue to track.

Her respones:


What all can I see with the cell/txt logs? Majority of her talking to these guys happens through WoW, Facebook, or Instant Messengers. She talks to them through ventrilo daily, I doubt skype.

I will take whatever evidence I can get. It's apparent she is going to leave me for cutting her off from WoW so the stronger my defense the better.

Chris introduced the past porn issue.

She certainly jumped on it when he brought it up, and it may have been simply to divert and manipulate. It could also be that she misunderstood and felt he was wanting to be allowed to go back to viewing porn since she has gone back on her promise about WOW.

On the website, or ordering the logs, the most you can get is numbers that are called and/or texted - the calls include call length. That was enough evidence for me to bust FWW, though she was racked with guilt. She had all the same foggy excuses, but not all the resentment/anger that you are facing.

Ask your Chaplain about family hardship leave if you can. You could also weigh out the possibility of family hardship discharge. My nephew recieved FHD for his FIL's death. Since you are dealing with young children as well as your spouse, it may be an option. Worth investigating.

As for text contents - look into a SIM card reader - you will have to be home to get to her SIM card - which is currently impossible, but if she is exhibiting paranoid behavior - constantly deleting her texts - then all of those deleted texts will still be on the card unless they have been overwritten.

Have to apologize, Chris. I have a little bit of an ADD tendency, and when I get going on a post, sometimes I forget to GET TO THE POINT. I've had a few in your thread where I just never got to the point of what I was trying to explain.

I doubt that. She has stated that from her perspective his porn use was equal to an affair. She obviously hasn't recovered and is abusing him by constantly throwing it in his face.

It still doesn't excuse her behavior, and in fact in several ways, what she is doing is worse; she is behaving the way she is directly to inflict punishment.

Yeah I did bring up the porn, but not to say I wanted it back. It was just a comparison. I quit it for her and I will stick by it. I just wish she would do the same.



I can already see who she called or texted and length of messages. But I don't know who the numbers belong to. To me it's just a bunch of numbers. I can't discern their value. I may look into the family hardship leave, but I don't want a discharge. I would never be able to stay afloat if I quit the military. I don't have any other job options.

I hadn't seen the second exchange when I posted.

We all understand what you were saying, Chris. You were trying to make a correlation for her. I just thought it was possible that she could have misunderstood and felt threatened.

I doubt that. She was using it to justify her bad behavior. That is a typical trait of wayward manipulator. She is obviously very manipulative.

Chris can you do anything about the finances? So many things can be paid online. Your father can pay the bills online for you so that nothing is cut off. Move funds to an account she can't get to and only let X amount of dollars for certain necessities - food, etc.

I think you're doing well with keeping calm. Whatever you do, stay calm.

Most of my stuff is automatically paid online except things like rent, which I pay by check. I already have a private account setup and am ready to move all non-necessity funds to it as soon as I feel the need.

Agree with this. Is there any way you can cancel the internet so she can't play WOW anymore?

You can do a reverse-lookup for landlines at whitepages.com - cell phones are harder.

AT&T has a "phonebook" option - not really useful for you at this time.

Remove the funds before she does

All the calls are mobile so no dice unless I want to pay for a year of reverse lookup (which I may do if divorce is imminent).

I've already set my funds to go to my private account.

Chaplain told me basically the same things you guys have. That I need to break her abuse/addiction, reinforce that I love her and my best interest is for her and the kids, and that her actions are damaging our relationship (without giving away the fact I'm monitoring...)

See below:

Then there isn't any equality. I do not agree with WoW or your "relationships" with those guys.

How is anything equal when one punishes the other? When one person controls the others free time?

You are looking at it wrong, the same way you always do, to make yourself look like the victim. I am the victim here. You broke a promise (that was intended to save our marriage) FOR PERSONAL GAIN, no matter what the consequences were. Originally they were divorce and you were okay with that. You were willing to divorce me just to play a game. Now that I am putting my foot down and saying I'm not going to tolerate it you have nothing else to do except try to find ways to victimize yourself and make me look bad. It isn't going to work. I am enforcing this. When you can learn to respect my feelings and emotions we can work through this, but until then we can't.

You will never understand my side of this argument because you weren't the one getting cheated on (and yes you were cheating).

If you think I was cheating then how is that any different than you stroking your [censored] to other women? It's not. At all. I wasn't getting off AT ALL. I wasn't doing anything because I meant it. I was just messing around w/ ppl.

Look, I love you to death. I love the kids to death. I am doing what is best for you and the kids. I want to work this out. But I need you to realize you have a problem. You are addicted to this game and the emotional friendships that come with it. You are too close to these other men as proven by the fact that even after telling me you would cut all ties with them (part of our no-wow agreement) but never did. You remained attached to them.

You have no concern for my feelings as proven by the fact you never asked me to return the emotional needs ratings, even after asking. You have no interest in what I think or how I feel. If you did you would try to understand why this bothers me so much. I am very adamant and hurt (STILL) from the last time this crap happened and it's slowly happening again. I am not going to be hurt by the same thing twice. Every time you log in or talk to toliak/atook/raax/vegil all I think about are those [censored] conversations you had with them before. I don't care how real they were to you, they were VERY real to me. I am permanently emotionally damaged because of them and I need you to understand this. We will never be able to move past this issue if you won't give me feelings any merit.

The divorce [censored] wasn't about the game at all. You STILL fail to see the point. It's about the controlling [censored] that you FORCE down my throat like I'm a malnourished child that doesn't want to eat. THAT is the issue I have. For you to say I don't care about your feelings is invalid. I never said that. I'm not working through [censored]. I didn't do anything wrong here. I told you that I wouldn't be talking to ppl like that again. I haven't. You can't trust me AND THAT IS THE ISSUE. So just trust me. Like I have done w/ the porn. I didn't bring that up just to be a [censored] and focus on old [censored]. I brought it up BECAUSE OF THE FEELINGS ASPECT OF THINGS. It was with relevance on emotional discomfort.

I have given your feelings merit. I told you that it won't happen again. Yet you get pissed off because YOU ASSUME some [censored] is going on when it isn't. You not trusting me is causing US problems. I play because I enjoy playing. I enjoy playing with ppl I have experience PLAYING with. I haven't been explicit with anything. I've joked in guild chat but I wasn't talking to anyone in particular. Ffs I'm not allowed to be myself. I'm not allowed to joke. I'm not allowed to play a video game to ease everyday stress. I'm not allowed to do anything unless you approve it. Just because you think about [censored] doesn't mean it is happening.

Then don't work through it, that's your call. I still love you and want to work through it. If you are walling yourself off to the truth then that's your problem not mine.

This is not about being controlling, like I said you're victimizing yourself. This whole issue started because you broke our promise. Our promise that saved our marriage. It has nothing to do with trust or control. It's about enforcing something that nearly ruined us.

If anyone in this situation should feel [censored] over it's me.

Plus I don't know if you've noticed but our relationship has been nothing but downhill since I introduced you to online games. Coincidence?

I consider a couple of ppl friends. I don't tell you not to befriend girls anymore because I feel threatened by them do I?

our relationship went down hill with the porn comment.
not games

Fine then hold that against me, something that is 8 years old and doesn't even apply today. If that's what I have to deal with then you were obviously never worried about being happy with me. If you can't let it go then we can never move forward. If you can't let wow go, if you can't let these "friends" go, then we'll never be able to move forward.

I don't befriend girls because of the stupid hypocritical [censored] chewing I took from you during that time. I no longer do it. I avoid the situation at all costs to save myself the headache--because keeping you happy is more important to me than a female friend.

I can't change how bad something makes me feel about myself. It does apply today because it makes me SUPER self conscious and i beat myself up over [censored]. I don't know why you can't understand that.

I DO understand. I DO. I want you to DO THE SAME FOR ME! Understand my situation and how bad this makes me feel. I AM BEGGING YOU.

Under no circumstance do I want porn back. Please get that out of your head. I promise you I have no intentions of ever looking at it again!

Well I think it's probably official, she's divorcing me:

She removed my ability to log into her pc so what evidence I have now is it. She also apparently posted something about a divorce because she started getting messages about lawyers and people wishing her luck, etc. She also had a short conversation with one of those "friends."




She posted something on facebook about divorcing me, but I don't know what. She deleted it before I could see. However, I did get my dad's responses to the post and it makes me proud to have him as a father.

Dude, you MUST learn how to talk with your W without inserting a DJ in almost every other sentence.

The second thing to remember is, you can't "reason" or "educate" an addict out of their addiction, so stop trying to do that. You'll only end up with the type of conversation you've just had with your W.

Finally, her D talk may be happening because she is very angry with you, not only for removing the source of her addiction, but for having that type of conversation that you just had with her. She is likely feeling VERY resentful now. Time to practice Plan A as much you can, but know from now you're likely not to get a positive response from her for quite a while.

I'm not worried about it. If she wakes up and wants to work with me fine, if not I'm already preparing for a custody battle.

Chris, may I suggest that you stop these lengthy discourses with your wife? You cannot reason with her right now, and she'll only want to talk to you to unleash her venom.

It's good to hear that you've cut her off. Have you enlisted the support of her parents? How are you confirming the well-being of your children right now?

Have you exposed yet? If not then that is your next step, not custody battles do exposure first then worry about all that.

Yes I am planning to expose first thing tomorrow.

I agree. As you have seen, you are only running into the stone-cold blindness of the addict when you try to talk to her. An addict's first and only priority is their drug. And in her case, her drug is other men. WoW is one of the roads there, but it's not just the game she's hooked on - it's the attention from opposite-sex players (I had to live through the exact same thing at my house. It wasn't just the game - it was the female game players that he interacted with on line.)

Just put a stop to any interacting with her - as little as possible and then *only* about vital matters like the kids. You've got enough stress where you are right now without this on top of it.


What can you do to ensure that your access to your children remains open? Was the chaplain of any help on this? And I know you don't want to do it, but your children may well need you to get a Hardship Leave so you can get home and care for them.

Chris,

I agree with the others.

There is a saying here that is so simple but it really resonated with me: ACT don't react. There is a lot of integrity in that. Understandbly you are very frustrated with your W fogginess and bad behavior, but responding to that with lovebusters will get you nowhere. You can state your boundaries and feelings without them.

My H was a BEAR when I made him give up his MMO and he wasn't playing nearly as much as your W. Just expect that for a while now, keep the conversation to a minimum and use the "broken record" technique. Trying to reason with your WW while she is so foggy is just going to frustrate the heck out of you.

Hang in there.

ps ~ your dad is awesome!

She told me last night she wants to work this out and doesn't understand my frustrations and furiously denies having any IB with other men. Letting the cat out of the bag and exposing her is the only way I'm going to get an answer.

There's really not anything I can do to guarantee communication stays open with my kids. If she wants to be an [censored] there's nothing anyone can do to stop her. I can try to get people to help, etc and they may, but it's ultimately up to my wife to say yes or no to any kind of visits, babysitting, etc.

And no the Chaplain wasn't any help. I really don't know if I could get a hardship leave, it's just not looking like an option right now without me coming up with a REALLY good story.

She is attempting to appease you so she can get back to gaming business as usual. She senses that you are in the driver's seat on this and she doesn't like it.

Keep going. You're doing great.

Oh, dear. Chris, pls take that link off because it has personally identifying information attached. I am trying to read it but wanted to tell you that first.

Can you copy and paste that exposure post here for people to comment on? My first thought is that it would be better to email it to selected people.

I didn't get to read the whole thing but did see the angry comments flying around at the bottom. Please understand that she is going to be enraged at the exposure. Don't engage her right now and don't try to reason with her.

Enraged is an understatement...


She skyped me for all of 30 seconds, crying and bawling, cussing me out etc saying I've gone too far, now the whole world thinks she's a wh0re. That the kids will be fine without me, she is moving on, etc.

and on her facebook page:

It's what they do, Chris. Remember what we said? Picture Linda Blair's in The Exorcist, where her head is spinning around on her neck.

Stay calm. Let exposure work.

Your mantra: "I love you and our marriage and will do whatever it takes to save it."

It's OK, Chris. This is very normal. When my sister exposed, her H raged for about 3 days. It was pretty bad, he even did damage to some things in their home...but she didn't engage him. She kept saying she did what she had to help him stop and she had hope for the M if he ended the A. Calmly. Broken record.

I agree with what the others have said here, Chris. Just try to stay cool. It's what they all do - no different than if you suddenly stole the crack pipe from a crack addict.

And isn't is strange how WS insist to the bitter end that they are doing NOTHING wrong, yet go insane if anyone else is told about it? I mean, if she's doing nothing wrong and you're just crazy, then what's the problem with other people knowing about her gaming and texting and chatting activities with men? Won't they believe her and not you? What is she worried about?

I really hope you guys are right. I do not want this to end. But at this time it's not looking good =(

All family is telling us to work it out but she is raging everywhere.

In the face of her raging, be the rock.

Have you read up on Love Busters? Are there any that you have been guilty of committing that you can correct in yourself(hint, DJ's)? Clean up your side of the fence.

Let her rage. She'll eventually blow herself out. Then she'll start doing what waywards do best - think about the best options for her (since it IS all about her, don'tcha know ). She'll come to the realization that her best bet is to try to pull it together with you. After she's done spouting about how you're marriage is through, she'll wind down and then start trying to negotiate with you to keep her gaming/OM thing going. She'll swear that she'll only go online one hour a day, blah blah blah.

But none of that will matter, because you are going to have a list of requirements in hand. Those requirements will explain to her what you require in order to restore your M. Have you thought about what these will be?

Other than spying on her and not trusting her. Not that I know of.

I am not saying spying is right but I do not lack trust in her. She is honestly doing something that bothers me so I am calling her out on it. She doesn't think it's bad so that's the current battle.

Although she still holds this porn thing against me from 8 years ago. I made a stupid comment, something like, "my fiance's vagina looks like that, too bad she doesn't look like her too" about some porn star. I took the heat for it, apologized for it, still apologize today. I was stupid 18 year old kid back then. But she still has never forgiven me for that. I have always positively commented on her looks, body, sexiness, how beautiful she is, how much I love her, etc. I don't know what else I can do.

I don't have any huge desires. I want our affection/sexual time to be back to pre-wow days, I want her to play less, and I don't want her talking inappropriately to other men.

All of these issues stem from one thing

You have every right to know what your othe half is doing.

I welcome any snooping method my H would care to employ.

I was touching on the disrespectful judgments that you were using in your chat with her.

Have you read about Love busters? Can you recognize where you LBd her in that exchange? All of the deposits in the world are NOT going to matter if you continue to make withdrawals in her LB.

Your non-trust is NOT an LB because........dun dun dun.....YOU HAD REASON NOT TO TRUST HER.

Her WoW playing is considered an IB(independent behaviour). She chose to do it on her own and continued to do it even when it bothered you. Her LYING was also an LB. See?

You want her to play less? Do you think it is possible for her to play at all?

How do you think you can get back to the pre-wow days?

I do not normally do the DJ's or LB's so I didn't list them as common things. This whole freaking issue that is going on is not allowing me to think straight or make good decisions. I am NOT a conversationalist when I am emotionally hurt. So yeah, at this time, those DJ's are an issue for me, but not normally.

WoW IS an IB, I agree. Despite our agreement, despite the pain it caused me, she still did it.

I understand her wanting to have something to do in her freetime. I don't want to limit that. But I do have an issue with her playing during the day when the kids are awake and demanding her attention. More than her playing, the issue that bothers me most is the content of her conversations. They are primary reason I hate WoW so much.

Getting back to pre-wow days? We'd have to start our relationship completely over to get there. Before Everquest, before WoW, back before I made that stupid comment about the porn star, back before I kicked her out for doing drugs, back before we had kids. We'd have to go ALL the way back, figure out what it was that caused us to fall for each other so strongly, and enforce those actions, tendencies, mindsets, etc. Back when we were happiest and not putting on fronts.

I saw the post before it was taken down, but I didn't see the comments at the bottom. It got me to thinking, and this is more an open question to the forum...

Is there enough in the chat logs to warrant notifying child protective services (or whatever it is where Chris lives). Clearly the kids are endangered by her neglect; I mean one of them set a box on fire from the fireplace and then left it in the middle of the living room. It didn't seem malicious; it seemed like normal curious kid kind of stuff, but parents are supposed to supervising curious kids to keep them from hurting themselves or others.

What would be the probable result of notifying child protective services? And would that be enough to get Chris sent home?

Just thinking out loud..

Chris, do you occasionally view porn? Just when the kids are asleep, maybe? Just for something to do, perhaps?

NO, you don't. It was causing problems in your M! Like this is!

Are you really telling me that there is nothing on God's green earth that she can do besides online gaming? Nothing?
Nothing else on the World Wide Web but WoW???

My friend, you are setting this bar waaay too low.

Our agreement with the porn thing was that if she made an honest effort to please me sexually I would forever drop the porn. She hasn't upheld her end of that bargain.

But, no, you are right. I am setting the bar low. I have never imposed strict restrictions on her... as long as she took care of me and the kids like she is supposed to. Well the past few years she has taken care of everyone but me. I know it sounds stupid but we have no sex life. NONE. So that just amplifies my hatred towards her comments to these guys. I mean if she's not too tired, too busy, overwhelmed, frustrated, etc then I might get some attention once a month. It's frustrating to know she is giving this sexually charged/flirtatious attention to other men when I was declined it for one of a million reasons.

Back on topic, sex isn't the purpose behind my complaints. It's just an amplifier due to the nature of the comments. There are millions of things she could do: Get a job, go to school, open up an in-home daycare, get some hobbies, join some local groups/communities, go to church, etc. Trust me I know. I have made these suggestions to her and she had an excuse not to do everyone of them.

My jaw just hit the floor.

Chris, normal kids do not do this. It's not just "curiosity". Children who deliberately set fires, especially *INSIDE THEIR OWN HOME*, are doing some serious, serious acting out and often prove to be severly troubled by some kind of abuse.

You don't have to take my word for it. Get in touch with a child psychologist and learn about this.

This strikes me as a severely neglected child who is so ignored that he/she will set the house on fire to try to get some attention from Mommy.

Sure you don't want to look into going home? Chris, if your kids are setting the house on fire while Mommy is consumed with playing WoW with her boyfriends, you have a major problem. Please get some real pro help for this stateside. I agree that Child Protective Services should be called immediately. Tell them you are USAF overseas and need help with this right away.

Chris you are getting good advice.


I think you need to consider NO gaming... FBing to men... email/ texting to men... as a MINIMUM.

FBing... texting... IMing etc to be limited in any event .... not these long hours she is "gaming" flirting with OM's.

Chris the anger will go... her raging will stop ... mine did after about a week. But what then? please think about the good advice you are getting here.

Do not ask or expect so little... because then its what you will get and you'll be back here in 12 months .... or divorced or perhaps worse ... in a M where you are in absolute misery.

No not everything you may wish will come right away.. you will BOTH have to work hard on your M. Part of that will be to show her there is a path to happiness with you... and yes you will need to sound like a broken record as you were previously advised in the meantime that you will do all in your power for a happy m ...

Chris you also need to consider YOUR behaviour here as well. Think about what you say to your wife,,, how you say it .... do you 'lecture' constantly and not talk or discuss???

I suspect that both of you have for some time been guilty of love busters. I suspect you both do not communicate well between you.
You may need to both go see someone like the good Doc here and learn this skill.

You want a wife not another child... she wants a husband not another parent.

Don't get discouraged Chris you are doing ok ... exposure is one of the hardest things to do... if she was NOT angry and spiting fire and threatening this and that ... then you didn't do it right... sounds strange doesn't it?? but as she is so angry means you hit the right targets.

In the meantime ...Remember ... mind on the mission,,, thoughts on the task... when you are off duty and can contact/ email etc,, thoughts back on the M and your wife & kids as required.

God bless and keep safe!!

I know my kids are acting out. Ever since my wife's addiction started that's when the acting out started. The issue now is that it's been going on so long that my wife thinks it's their normal behavior. This is the reason she doesn't see it negatively or give it any second thought. If I have grounds to fight her on neglect I will, but I need someone confident and knowledgeable in the matter to inform me of this before hand. As for going home, I would love to. My kids need me. Mommy is playing games instead of spending time with them. You know, she may not want to do it, BUT I DO. I would give anything to be there and have the choice of kids or video games. Because my kids would win every time. I gave up video games for my kids a long time ago. When I come home from work I don't touch the video games, the computer, nothing. I'm 100% on my kids and wife until they go to bed, then I'm 100% on my wife. WHEN AND ONLY WHEN she wants to do something other than spend time with me, I get on the computer or do something else.

Regarding trying to let her keep the game but "play less",

First of all, to prevent another affair, she will have to give up online gaming. They are breeding grounds for affairs, nevermind that she has extremely poor boundaries & a history of problems in that area.

Secondly, and more importantly, she has proven that the safety and welfare of her kids fall to the wayside when she is playing. For that reason alone, I would make it clear that you never want WoW in your household again.

I agree. I never wanted her to play in the first place remember? But I gave in because I didn't want to deal with the "I'm playing whether you like it or not" drama while I'm overseas. It's just more stress I didn't want to deal with. So I trusted she wouldn't act stupid, but she did. Hindsight is a bi**h.

For someone who wants nothing to do with me she sure can't seem to leave me alone. Constantly posting on my wall, replying to my posts, etc. Hard for me to believe she "doesn't care anymore" or "wants me to die."

Chris,

My now XH is a recovering alcoholic - he works incredibly hard to maintain is sobriety and he is a completely different person than when he was drinking. The entire time we were married, his alcoholism raged. During that time, is when he had the A that ended our marriage after 3 years of my trying to save it. During the 3 years of my trying to save our marriage despite his leaving twice to live with OW in another country, the thing he constantly threw up in my face - especially if he was drunk, was how I was "trying to control him." This is part of the WS script and, more importantly, part of an addicts script. Your wife is addicted to WoW and her raging about how you are trying to control her is because you are threatening her "fix". Just let her rage on and try to avoid engaging with her.

I found the best thing I could do was to let my XH rage on and on and just sit there. In fact, one time, he came home drunk and woke me up to rage at me. I told him I would gladly listen, but he had to turn the lights out because I had been asleep and the light was hurting my eyes. He agreed, turned the lights out and kept ranting at me. As for me? The lights were out, he couldn't see me, so I closed my eyes and went right back to sleep! LOL! My point? Don't engage with her. Simply tell her you are doing what you are doing to save the marriage and ensure your children are being properly cared for (btw, I agree with Mulan, normal curious kids like mine, do not set things on fire - that's the sign of a child screaming for attention) - become a broken record....but don't engage. That's what they want.

I agree. The only thing she does I try to control is her WoW playing and her relations with other men.

How do I avoid engagement but at the same time not ignore her? Which will undoubtedly piss her off more.

Although if she holds true to her last comment I won't have to try very hard.

Non-engagement is probably the best approach here, but if someone told me that, I would have pointed out that my trust needs to be earned, not demanded.

You simply change the subject. Or don't respond at all.

I'm not quite catching the context or target of this. The only person demanding trust is her, but she's also the only person who is hiding something.

Exactly. Next time she does that, point out that your trust needs to be earned, not demanded, then move on to another subject.

K, was just making sure I understood you.

By the way, I don't remember who it was that called me out for setting the bar low so I gave it some thought today and I think I came up with some reasonable requirements.

1) No more online games (like WoW)
2) Discontinued relations with the people from WoW (and a caveat to this is Gaming Friends STAY IN THE GAME, do not bring game friends to the real world, and do not bring the real world to the game, aka personal information/flirting/sexual conversations).
3) We get marriage counseling, lots of it.

One major helpful boundary that sapphire and I gave ourselves was no friends of the opposite sex in any situation. Whether it is at work, online, or neighbors. It is something we should not be dabbling with. That is only one thing we do to set the bar higher. (sapph also said I was setting the bar to high for her, but I really had no expectations of her, extreamly low expectations and low bar at the time).

Another thing to raise the bar is 20+ hours of UA time each week. I would suggest thinking of more ways, MB ways, to raise the bar for you two to have a good recovery, and mark those as part of your plan.

A lot of this "raising the bar" and setting boundaries can only be done after the affair is over. It helps in the recovery, but right now they lines in the sand that your WW will have to meet in order for you to gain trust in her over time.

I like your ideas, only thing is in the 12 years I've known my wife she's only ever had one female friend. Is this something I should consider?

I brought it up, Chris, and I think you're on to a good start.
If your WW was an alcoholic, would you allow her to drink 'occasionally'? I don't think so. Alcoholics can't drink 'occasionally'. They have to stop, or their alcohol addiction cannot be eliminated.

It's the same with your WW's online gaming, IMO. She can't do it.

Two things:
Stop getting into those circular arguments with her. They will get you nothing as long as she in eyeball-deep in her addiction.

I was thinking about you last night, and I came up with something that I haven't seen here before (although I may have just missed it, don't credit me with an original thought ):
It will be difficult for you to help her with her internet issues while you're not physically there.

My thought is this: If I were in your shoes, one of my requirements for recovering the M would be that a disinterested third party (someone you trust) would take her computer to a tech guy and have a keylogger installed with email reports of her computer activities being sent to you. Obviously she would know that a keylogger was installed. This would be the equivalent of an ankle monitor for an alcoholic on house arrest, KWIM? There would be some accountability, and she would be on notice that her online activities are monitored by you.

I haven't thought out all of the ins and outs of this (that's when I fell asleep ) But I don't think there's a down side to it.

Of course, your WW has to be ready to get on board with recovery before that can happen.

Just my big pre-snooze brainstorm. I'm hoping we can get some opinions from some other posters on this.

It's a good idea, the problem with it though is she will just swap to using Ventrilo to talk to these guys (which she already has). She'll get hers no matter what.

You could possibly configure your Internet router (ADSL?) to block the ports required for Ventrilo to operate.

Don't roll over because you think she'll try to figure out a way around it. Do it anyway. Close as many open doors as you can. I suspect that a big topic of her chats with OM will involve their gaming, and if they're not gaming they'll lose their main topic of conversation.

Make it hard for her, Chris.

Chris Your wife having only one female friend is a problem. She may even use that same line as cannon fodder to throw you off. How would you respond to her if she said the same thing to you?

I would say something like: "Friends of the opposite sex cause jealousy and mistrust in a marriage, the same thing we are going through right now. I am trying my best to save our marriage and this will help."

Basically, give her the broken record.

This should only be one of many requirements for her.

I do not know the best way to present her with these requirements, or when to present them to her, but I have a feeling that now is not the time. Try to get the affairs taken care of first, but plan to give her a list of way to improve your marriage in the near future. Like when you are both ready to read SAA, HNHN, or LB together.

Originally Posted by Chris_USAF

I like your ideas, only thing is in the 12 years I've known my wife she's only ever had one female friend. Is this something I should consider?

Hi, Chris!
I've been lurking since you started your thread.
First, let me say:
THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY!!!!!


Are you saying that your W has NO same-sex friends where she lives?!? Does she live in her home town or a city where she is choosing to not make new friends? Do her parents/your dad live in the same city? Does your W have any siblings who would help you by being your W's "accountability partner(s)" in your stead? Are there any Aunts, Uncles, Cousins, family members who would come alongside your W, in your stead, in an effort to help her deal with urgent issues?

Maybe you have already answered these questions. If so, please forgive me...

I'm pulling for you! Your service to our country is important to me... However, your service to your M is more important!

God Bless, Sweetheart!

WoW communication port: 3724
Ventrilo default port: 3784, but the server admin is in control of which port it uses, and none are ever the same. These ventrilo farms will use the same IP address then rent out dozens of ports to users. Blocking these things is tough unless you know the specific ventrilo they are using, at least you can block that one ventrilo.

I can't. She had her REALLY good friend Jon uninstall all my remote desktop software. He's such a swell guy.

Unless there is some super secret way I don't know about, I no longer have access to my home network.


If there is still one open door, it doesn't matter. There is no point monitoring her if I'm missing majority of the conversation.


I gave up all female friends to prevent jealousy and issues. I had one before, she exploded so I ended it and I've never sought out another. The headache is not worth it.

The other thing is a good idea. I feel if my list of requirements gets too big though, she's just going to see me as a much larger control freak than she already thinks I am and it's going to backfire. Not saying I don't agree with you though, just throwing it out there.


She has no real female friends. She met a few women for playdates but I can tell she doesn't truly like them. She just does it to give our kids other kids to play with.

She has no family she can rely on for support. Most of her family is mentally challenged, druggies, most don't even have custody of their own kids, etc. The ones that don't have issues live in other states. Her parents are part of why she is the way she is today. I'm not blaming them per-say, but they damn sure haven't helped. She is a LOT like her mom. Her dad and I see eye to eye on a lot of issues because of this but he won't act against his daughter. I've already lost that battle before.

Here is an article from Dr. Harley on opposite sex friendships.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8119_friends.html

Jon also helped her regain connection to WoW.

Man I'm really loving this guy messing with my home network.

Put this option in your arsenal and be ready to use it anyway.

It's there, always has been. She even offered it to me and I told her the same thing I told you. She'll just log into Ventrilo to say her dirty.

Do you mean she's reconnected now?

How much access do you have to that PC? Perhaps the next step is to disable the applications themselves so they can't run at all. E.g. flag one of the executables as an unwanted file in your AV scanner, if it allows you to do so. Or insert a script in the startup to overwrite one of the needed DLLs with another file, so even if she does a reinstall, the script will corrupt the application during the next startup. Or enable the built-in Software restriction policies so Windows itself will block the targetted applications from running. Or if you want to REALLY lock it down tight, use IPSEC policies to restrict every request from the computer that does not terminate on Port 80, Port 443 or one of the ports Windows uses for local networking. This locks the machine down tight network-wise, it's silent and very few people know how to troubleshoot what could be causing the connectivity problems, as very few people know about this feature of Windows. I've only come across it once, and I'm an IT old-timer. .

You're missing the point, Chris.

This is action. Actions speak louder than words.
It confirms your intent with her.
It takes away the fantasy aspect of the game and the OM relationships within the game.
It removes the main topic of conversation with online OMs. That's HUGE. The game is their launch-point for conversation. It's the only thing they have in common!

These are powerful things. Please don't minimize the power of cutting off her online gaming!

Yes he removed my ability to remote into the computers, even my file server. He had her completely wipe out all software I use to connect and even reset my router so all those settings are gone too.

I have no way to connect unless you know some super secret way.

Yes she is reconnected. I'm currently on the phone with Blizzard to get the authenticator taken off the account so I can log in and cancel the subscription, change the email, and change the password. I'll probably end up changing the secret question to something completely off the wall too so she can't figure it out and call in and change everything back.

Wonder if you can press charges against him for tampering with your computer without your permission. Just a thought.

I agree they are. WoW is getting kicked out even if I can't login to my network.

What will stop her from opening a new account in her name?

Seems to me that it might be time to cancel the Internet service. Who's paying for it anyway?

Probably not if it's jointly-owned.

Hey, how about asking one of your family to swing by and re-enable the remote-access settings? Once that's done, reconnect, then remove her admin privs so she can't mess with the computer's config again.

This is assuming of course that she has not removed your admin privs already.

Yeah but the router can always be hard reset to factory defaults, and there are any number of ways to crack the admin password on a windows box.

Who is this guy Jon?

No, no and no. Again - they ALL say this. To restore trust, she will have to take steps to earn your trust once again. She had it once, and look what she did with it. The ball will remain in her court as far as "trust" is concerned.

And believe me - anytime a wayward says, "You should trust me!" what they really mean is, "You should believe anything I tell you and not ask any questions!"

Exactly, exactly. "You're Trying To Control Me" ALWAYS means, "You're interfering with my drug." I heard the same exact words.

As of this time all of my connections to home networks etc are terminated, she has changed all passwords, etc and I'm not going to go hacking [censored] to provoke her.

All I'm doing now is playing the waiting game. To see when she decides what she wants to do. Once I know I can go from there.

Who holds the purse-strings here? Cancel the bludy Internet service. No service = no game play. You're in a battle against an addiction now - do you think waiting until the enemy marshals its forces and entrenches itself is a good strategy?

I agree cancel everything internet, wow, cell phone, etc...just keep your home land line. Everything else CUT IT OFF!! And change the passwords so she can't get into them and turn them back on.

Admit that you don't trust her. Dr. H says we should NOT trust our spouse. Blindly trusting is foolishness. If she were trustworthy, she would welcome you checking up on her.

Don't let her manipulate you w/ this "you don't trust me" crap. Admit that you don't.

You shouldn't.

Of course you don't trust her. You wouldn't trust anyone who lied to you and sneaked around behind your back, so you don't trust her.

However - I think your problems are much bigger than just trying to cut off her game access. Since you cannot be there, she will just make an end-run around anything you try to do - get a new PC, get her own Internet account, whatever it takes.

Forget that Tom and Jerry game. Your children are what matters now. What can you do to intervene in their care, so that even if Mom wants to essentially smoke crack all day they will be safe and cared for instead of being ignored and setting fires in the house?

Your chaplain couldn't help with this? What about your CO?

Probably best to do both cancel the internet and cancel the WoW account - if he can have the account smashed, it will take buying the original game, plus all 3 expansions over again, and paying for game time. If the finances are squelched, that will be no easy task.

Internet has to go due to her FB/IM activity.

You really should tell the family what you are doing and why - it may lead to some crazy erratic behavior you won't be there to help contain.

If things go well, she would have to get a job to continue the behavior - and then that would cut down her playtime, and have the kids in the safer hands of a babysitter/daycare for a portion of the day.

Agree on canceling the net. I would also called Jon and tell him to stay far away from your wife and home

Canceling the net kills my ability to talk to my kids, not something I'm willing to do.

I already talked to Jon, and he, just like everyone else, is already brainwashed into thinking I'm an untrustworthy control freak.

Even with exposing her her friends and family are still on her side, and my friends and family are on my side.

Oh wow, I just found a message, which apparently came after Jon screwed up my network which reads:

"Hahahaha It's great having friends smarter than you."


With me 8000 miles away I don't think "being smart" has anything to do with it. SHE let him into the network with remote desktop software, it didn't take any brainpower to figure out. I know exactly how he got into my router, he hard-reset it.

But I now own her WoW account. ;-)

U can still contact ur kids through other means like....phone!:p I would cut it, did u cancel her wow account yet?

Yes I own the wow account. I don't want to use a phone when I can SEE them on skype.

Of course he's siding with her. He just wants to bang her while you're away, and GTFO when you get back. He doesn't want a wife, he wants an easy lay.

Or... he hasn't thought anything of it and now he will either; a) recognize and exploit a perceived opportunity, or b) run. Run far, far away.

I appreciate everyone's advice and opinions. I need to get off here for a bit and wait and see what happens. The more I think about this crap the less I am coming to terms with it.

Thanks.

The fact that he's gone as far as reconfiguring your PCs and the router suggests to me that a bit more is involved than just siding with the WW. I think he sees the possibility of an easy lay.

Good job getting control of the WoW account, BTW.

Chris, tell this POS Jon to stay the f--- away from your house and marriage. You're military. Make him afraid.

The only term to come to with adultery is that it is wrong, and can not exist to have a good marriage. I am just saying I don't want you to come to terms with an affair.

Small update:

I lost the WoW battle. I've fought and fought, took and took, but she won't give it up. Going to leave it at that.

She told me she wants to work it out though, and promised me the issues with these other guys would stop. I even talked to Jon and he said he had no interest in her other than as a friend. (whether I can trust him or not still to be determined).

We talked back and forth a bit, discussing random things. She told me she has been hiding her emotions for years (8) since the porn thing. Saying she cannot get over it and it's why we have been emotionally disconnected. She said she has been putting up a front ever since to keep everyone around her happy and to make everyone thing she's happy. So she's basically been lying to me about her feelings for 8 years...




The next day she sends me this:


I reply with:












So while she was sleeping I sent her a message and basically laid out my views/wants/needs on the following subjects: Affection, Sex, Intimacy, Humor, Communication, Undivided Attention, Kid Time, Date Nights, Respect, Support, Trust, Common Interests, Barriers, Me Time (You Time), Us Time, Bottled Feelings/Emotions, Loyalty, Devotion, Mutual Agreement (POJA), Temper/Anger, Understanding, Romance, Patience, Reasonable Sacrifice, Compassion, Adventure, Spontaneity, Making Time, Family Night, Monetary Allowances, Ambitions and Goals, Exercise, and Opposite Sex friends. (Yes it was a long message).

She replied with:



After asking her to elaborate a little (since some of my responses were asking for her feedback) she sent this:


After a few days of no elaboration, despite me asking again, I sent her this:


I have an upper respiratory infection, which I have been complaining about for days to everyone, and she hasn't provided the least bit of compassion on the subject. She sends me this:




And that's kind of where we're at. She is playing WoW still and apparently the parents have been over a lot. So between those two I have been waiting 3 days for a decent response to my original message (except for the last few, almost all of those conversations took place on the 9th my time, which is the 8th her time).

Forgot to mention I've introduced my wife to all of the Marriage Builders articles, worksheets, etc and have asked her to do Love Busters, Emotional Needs, and Personal History worksheets with me. I have started filling out my portions but I doubt she has started. Still waiting on a response on that front.

Chris, I don't she is going to be able to implement any of the MB principles and I don't think she will POJA anything with you. Also you are going to have a tough time meeting any of her emotional needs. I believe Dr Harley discusses the challenges of a spouse with an addiction under the alcoholic Q&A section.

I am aware, I have read the articles. I can only work with what I have. If she won't give it up then I can't MAKE her give it up. I do however want this to work and am willing to try to work it out despite this issue. If this game prevents further progression then so be it, if it doesn't, then we'll move forward.

How did you lose it? I thought you got control of the WoW account? Cancelling it would have been the obvious next step.



Translation: Let's pull yet another one over on the poor BH - we'll just be better at hiding it!



That's call blame-shifting. She's emotionally disconnected from you because she's getting her ENs met by other men.



In other words, she's not open to hearing any of that stuff from you, Chris, and laying it upon her is likely going to turn her off even more. And trying to reason with her or worse "teach" her MB principles is not going to work at this point. It's simply going to make matters worse.

I did, but it's in her name so she took it back. She has her own money so she is paying for it herself. Not a lot I can do at this point.


Without a way to monitor I can't prove anything.


This has been the case for a long time and is the primary focus of our recovery. I've told her if we can't repair the emotional connection then we can't move forward.


I'm already prepared for this to happen. I'm trying to work with what I have available and if it doesn't then I can't say I haven't tried. She is being extremely stubborn and selfish and no matter what will make me look like the bad guy. I'm already prepared for this and can't say I don't expect it to happen. I mean seriously, she's so detached from me that in 4 days of being sick the most she has said regarding it is "feel better." Gee, thanks?

I appreciate all the advice I've gotten here so far. I have been reading up on everything and am already applying the principles in my own life and am trying to apply them to my marriage.

You're entirely within your right to divorce this woman if she won't engage you in conversation. She sounds entitled and self-righteous - those are tough things to change.....

Sounds like she's going to take it a little more underground.

Keep gathering whatever evidence you can whenever you can. Continue your Plan A tactics. If she won't do "marriage stuff" don't oversweat it.

I'm thinking that your goal right now is to make sure she is home when you get home, that you have put down a good foundation - and then you can continue to gather evidence.

It's going to be easier to kill the WoW addiction when you are actually home, and those you have tried to enlist in the fight just enable her or ignore the problem.

Also, never believe the OM. As if he would tell you that he is diddling your wife... that would require something resembling testicular fortitude. Men possessing that can get their own dang women.

I've been sick the past 4 days yet still trying to work on our issues. Yet now that she's sick she gets a bye?







At least 1/3 of the topics in my long message to her asked for her opinion on them, which she hasn't done. And so now wanting to discuss these things is "forcing my opinion on her."

Okay?

DO you see what she is doing??

The reason why she does not want to talk about it because she DOESN'T want to FIX anything!!!

She is happy exactly where she is at, getting her needs met by other men, you gone, house, kids, money, etc...why would she change that???

What you needed to do when you found about those dirty conversations with OM was to expose, have you done that yet?? I can tell you haven't.

Until you get your balls back from your wife and expose then you will lose her.

She is a WW she will....

LIE
CHEAT
LIE
REWRITE HISTORY
LIE
MAKE IT SEEM EVERYTHING IS FINE (until you bring up fixing up your issues...haven't you notice??)
LIE
SELFISH
LIE

oh and one more thing

LIE!!!!

I bet you a million dollars she skimmed read your email, and the only part she wanted to read was about the children...HENCE why she only mentioned about the children...

Sigh...

Just expose all ready, seriously what are you waiting for?

Are you waiting to find out that she is pregnant with and STD??

I did expose, I posted about it a few pages back. Didn't accomplish anything. What I said would happen, happened (her family friends were on her side, my friends family were on my side).

My balls are fully intact but I'm limited by this crazy thing called SEVEN THOUSAND MILES of distance. I have no way into my home network, no way to stop her from spending her OWN MONEY, etc. All I can do from here is talk. That's it.

ok ya I read it...

Are you willing to work plan A until you come home?
Do you still love her?
Are you willing to be in pain for how ever more months you have and work on plan A?

If the answer is yes then you need to have no more expectations read up more on plan A, I think in part of plan A you don't really talk a whole lot about relationship talk example...

"I don't appreciate you playing WOW when the kids are up....how was your day??"

Quickly remind her of the things you do not appreciate and change the subject if she brings it up...change it again.

If you can't endure the pain I suggest filing for a Divorce.

But maybe someone else has better advice, I'm sorry for everything I can't imagine being so far away and this happening.

No, but I'm willing to give it some more time.
Yes, always will.
No, that's why I said I'll give it a some more time, but not 10 more months.


I do. Doesn't work.


Hasn't slipped my mind.


I appreciate any advice. And yes it sucks being so far away.

Will you be able to find a lawyer if you do decide to go with a divorce that way to protect you?

In your start can you file for AOA? If so I would recommend it.

Just remember to fight for your kids, I do not think your wife should have them.

I'll use the lawyer my sister used in her divorce, he's a good guy and I already got him on our side due to previous family business.

AOA?

I will definitely fight for my kids. At that point the gloves will come off and I'll get dirty (and she will too).

AOA= Alien of Affection

You can sue the men for breaking up the marriage.

Wow really? That's crazy.

Edit: Just looked into it, alienation isn't persued in GA.

Ya read up on it and see what you can do...if she wants a single life then you will give it to her...but NOT before you come out with a fight

Yeah my state doesn't allow AOAs. Most don't actually.

Try anyway..it's worth a shot, some judges might be in your favor knowing she has been talking to other men just keep all the evidence. I know I would.

This is why I have followed the route with you that I have followed.

The distance and length of separation are very difficult, if not impossible. I want to believe that it is not impossible, but the normal tactics for these situations are very difficult to pull off when you are so far away, and don't have good family support.

Make yourself a honey pot in a bear trap. Make her get careless and lazy so that you can gather your evidence, and when the time is ripe, you can STRIKE.

Gather what evidence? All methods of gathering have been removed. All I can do is talk to people. That is it. No one around that knows enough to help me install programs/spy software, and if they did she wouldn't let them. Phone logs aren't telling me much, and she's barely texting anyone.

Chris, you're still trying to "educate" her, and she's not open to that! She's going to see you as boorish, controlling, overbearing, etc...

Let me ask you this, if she was a single woman that you're trying to attract, what would you be doing now?

Talk to her.

This allows you to meet two of the four Intimate ENs, Conversation and Affection.

Do you see how the Relationship talking has been a huge LB?

I know how you feel about being separated from family. I have a Sea Counter of 3yrs, 10mths, and 21 days. The only contact I had was letters and phone calls when in port.

Don't be disheartened by this. IMHO, you have been so wrapped up in breaking up this Affair/Addiction from a long distance that you see as impossible. Accept it! At this moment in time you can only use the Carrot and Stick of Plan A.

Do you understand how to use the Carrot and Stick?

Apparently not.

**DJ incoming, please don't remind me**


So she sent me a message telling me she's going to a birthday party at 6. I log on around 8:30 and see her on FB so I shoot her a message, "thought you were at a bday party?"

Her: I was
Me: Who was it for?
Her: Perry. That's why I didn't stay long
Me: lol. Any other big plans tonight?

There is about a 30 minute gap right here. So I log into WoW to see what's up.

Sure enough she is logged in and playing.

She sends me a message.

Her: Hey babe, give me a minute in boss fight
Me; yeah sure np
Her: =(

Sometime during this I notice she replied on facebook

Her: No, just gaming

So I swapped back over to WoW and sent her this message:

Me: I'm still trying to figure out how you're too tired, too busy, too sick for me and our marriage, but have plenty of time and energy to do everything with everyone else.

Then logged out. I'm about this | | close to just giving up and moving on. This seems so hopeless.

That depends on the contents of the conversation. And that's what I'm getting at here. Hey, I can start rattling off about nuclear physics to my FWW, but that sure ain't gonna make deposits into her LB for me.

Content counts.

Have you really given a Plan A a chance?

It is really FOXTROT UNIFORM CHARLIE KILO INDIA NOVEMBER GOLF unfair that the BS has to do the heavy lifting. And you have it really bad, that you are over their sacrificing. Military service is about sacrifice. And right now the things that people normally can do, you can't.

Nobody is telling you what to do. The choice is all yours. No matter what you decide I believe the people here can help you. Including me.

Have you spoken to a chaplain?

I agree it is unfair. Unfortunately, communicating has been our weakest point lately and with all these issues, and me being so far away, I don't think I'm going to be able to rely on communicating to fix everything. I'm at the point where I'm ready to just sit around and see what happens and work this issue in person when I get home.

And yes I've seen a Chaplain, accomplished nothing.

What do you know about the Love Bank and Love Busters?

I'm not re-answering questions. I've read all the articles and have said I am incorporating them into my daily. My wife is not accepting them.

It doesn't matter how much I know about these processes if she doesn't want to use them.

Simple yeah?

What is ur plan? This is ur decision, if u think u can't do this anymore then file for a divorce.

But if u feel like u can stick with all the lieing, and cheating and wait till u get home then....

If u r willing to stick to it I would consider doing plan a with no more relationship talk, no more expectations, etc...

If u start getting upset with her then exit urself from the conversation so u do not lovebust, or do any disrespected judgements, etc.

Can u do that till u get home?

Or if its too hard to talk to her have u considered plan b? I'm not sure how much plan a u have done but it sounds like u need to control ur emotions and have no more expectations.

At the moment, I think you should be using the techniques without expectations, e.g. "Plan A". The idea is to show your W your best side. Keep this in mind whenever you engage in any communication with her.

One more thing...

You can not educate with a WW anything u say about recovering ur marriage....fixing ur issues...helping the marriage/relationship, will go in one ear and right out the other...

She will be more annoyed at you so no more teaching a WW got it??

Everytime wheels brought up anything about what to do to fix out marriage I got mad. This is hard for u I know because u are soo far away, so think it in another way......

Send her good morning texts like have a nice day today
Send her flowers or her fav desert
Send her pix of u and love letters
Write her letters and remind her of good happy memories
Etc...

Can u do that till u get home?
Remember no expectations if she doesn't care about the gifts just keep doing it.

I AM currently working plan A and it went from being partially started a few days ago to being 100% full motion this morning. I am willing to work on this if I feel like I'm getting something in return. If I still feel ignored then I'm going to think she's not interested and probably move on.

We had a long talk this morning after the other post and have fully implemented plan A. We both talked about some issues that were bothering us, nothing was really "solved" per say, but we agreed to work on positives and quit mentioning the negatives.

This was the last thing I sent her before she went to bed. It mentions the two biggest issues my wife has with me. The porn thing I've already mentioned and the one female friend I briefly mentioned, but here I mention it a bit more indepth because she was asking me if I had feelings for her and a physical attraction to her. The key thing to note about this "relationship" was that my wife was telling our whole life story to 3-4 other guys, emotionally disconnecting from me, etc so I sought another female to give my attention to. I didn't emotionally connect with her and I never physically met her. As soon as my wife expressed that she didn't like the relationship I ended it immediately (point proven) and have never contacted her again (not something my wife can say she's done).

(Toliak is Jon)

Almost every day I tell her good morning and good night, and always say I love her, hope she feels better, ask her what she's doing, if she's feeling okay, etc.

I have been doing the gifts. I sent gifts for Christmas (His & her watches). I sent Flowers for Christmas (candy cane roses). I already had her Anniversary gift made (custom made, engraved, jewelry box), her birthday present made (pendant with the birthstones of us and our 3 kids in it), and have many more plans for more gifts (including a Pink Topaz Necklace/Earring Set). And I just recently sent home a care package with some Afghan scarves, some Afghan purses for the kids, candy, letters, colored pictures, etc for everyone.

Recently I planned a vacation for us in June. I told her I wanted it to be a game between us, no googling, asking for help, etc. I would post clues on her facebook page or mine every so often with random facts or pictures of this place and her task is to try and figure it out in 6 months. So far I've given her 3 clues and this is the enthusiastic response I got after the third one:



She never expressed to me that she DID NOT want to play so I thought she was all for it. Should I stop this game or continue on with it? If she's not enjoying it should I do it anyways just to show I am trying and care. She knows I mean well...

An exampple of some of the poetry I've written her. There's a bunch:


Throughout II

Five long years ago,
I wrote "Throughout" part 1.
I was facing some hard times,
But for you, I stopped for none.

Today I progress our story,
I write you another rhyme.
To let everyone know I love you,
And forever, you are mine.

The last few years have been rough,
I was lost on what to do.
But we battled through the pain,
And we fought to pull through.

Just when I thought it was over,
We came to an agreement.
You assured me of the mistakes,
How you said, was not how you meant.

Since then things have been great,
Until one day a call on the line,
Informs me I have to leave,
For a year, that's some time!

We prepared and we readied,
But in the bitter end,
Nothing can prepare you,
For what lurks around that bend.

More hard times are upon us,
But we both remain strong.
To give up on ourselves now,
Would do our babies wrong.

You now hold the homefront,
The problems never seem to stop.
Even when you feel caught up,
Issues arise, and you want to drop.

You tell me of your pain,
You tell me of your worry.
The stress builds high,
So for you, I write this story.

Now just like last time,
I will help you when you're down.
I will kiss away your tears,
And take away your frown.

For no woman stands,
Nearly as tall as you.
Unlike most of the others,
You now do the job of two.

You have a lot on your plate,
But you manage it well,
If it was any other woman,
They would have cursed to hell.

But you hold strong,
You're an inspiration to all,
You keep it all together,
Without you, we'd fall.

I thank you for all you do,
I love you very much.
I miss your bright smile,
And your soft touch.

When that day finally comes,
We will finally have reprieve.
I want you to know,
I love you more, than you can believe.

Your lips upon mine,
My arms around you.
I'll whisper in your ear,
"I missed you too."

Can you see a difference?

Lovely poem, Chris!

I agree with you difference in posts, other than the porn one. It wasn't the porn itself that created issues. I made the stupid 18 year old mistake of comparing my (then fiancee) to a porn star. I didn't go to another woman because I wanted to. But I needed that outlet and my wife was ignoring me. Does it make it right? No. I know this. I didn't want the relationship and had no feelings for her, part of why I gave it up so easily.

Thanks for the comment on the poem. There's more, but I just wanted to give an example. I do these a lot. She used to do them all the time for me but she doesn't anymore. A lot of the sweet romantic, lovey-dovey stuff she used to do for me she doesn't do anymore, yet still expects it from me =(

@USAF -

How is it going?

See sig

Been looking at your thread periodically, glad to see some progress! And glad you exposed!

Just checking in to see how things are?

Going good. A week into Plan A so far. She seems to be responding better, acting nicer, paying more attention, etc.

Is she reading the MB books?

Nope. And I told you guys she wouldn't. She's intimidated by "outside assistance." AKA: Books, Counselors, etc.

Then, can I ask in what way is your Recovery "going great"? Cause it doesn't sound great from over here......

And you're entitled to your opinion.

Do what you can do. Your situation is tough. Read up and learn so that when you do return home you have a good foundation laid and a plan of attack to prevent recurrence.

Hmmm.....not trying to be rude, just curious. Sounds to me like she's still Wayward, still playing WoW, still stepping all over you, refusing to accept any help.... still lying to you.... all taken from your posts.... and yet, your recovery is going great?

I just thought there might have been something you didn't mention that would make that a true statement.

Or perhaps you mean that from YOUR end, you're Plan A'ing well?
I'm just confused, that's all. Here to help.

How are things?

I think that is the doing great part. He is implementing the thoughts and process of Plan A. Gotta lay out the feast before you can snare the dragon(lady).

Exactly, I'm doing everything "I" can by implementing Plan A. There's not much else I can do.

You did already cut all the purse strings that you could, didn't you?

Anyway, I think considering your situation, you are setting up nicely.

Count down that deploment clock, then when you get home, time to do some affair slaying - 40 man heroic hard-mode style.

Hi, Chris ~
God bless you for what you are doing for us in Afghanistan! You ARE precious to me, Sweetheart!

Your poem is beautiful!
It reminds me of the poems my H used to write to me!
Keep your head high!
Keep your focus on the love that you want to restore in your marriage...
You are on the right track!
God Bless ~
I am praying for you...

Thank you, and I am. Old school BWL style?



Thank you. That is just one of many. And part of Plan A is focusing on the positive--So I am.

Wielding Thunderfury, and wearing a full Fogbabble resistance set.

Small Update:

My wife finally admitted to being depressed. That she's been in denial about it for 5 years.


On the other side, she seems happy enough to send some pictures to the Jon guy.

Good day

That's because she's self-medicating her depression with the high of an affair.
Of course, we know that it will only lead to more depression in the long run.
How are things going? How are you feeling about your marriage at this point?

I'm doing fine. Ready to bail though.

I got chewed out yesterday over some old [censored]. I made mention to a video my friend posted on his wall, which was of his girlfriend DJ'ing (I like music) and she thought I was drooling over the girl. That errupted into a 3 hour session of her accusing me of wanting this girl, lying to her, hiding something, etc. I've never met this girl. I only know of her through my friend.

So yeah, tired of the B.S.

Chris, you do realize she is attacking you like this because she is blameshifting - right? She immediately comes out yapping and snapping like a terrier, backs you into a corner, and prevents you from saying anything about HER actions. She forces the focus on YOU and what she says YOU have done and makes the problems all about YOU.

She does this because it works.

Oh I know and agree. When I finally make progress she always switches it to, "Fine, whatever. It's always my fault anyways" and storms away (or logs off, whatever).

Major dilemna: The ex-gf that I left so that my wife and I could get back together (we were separated, she told me she was pregnant, I wanted to be a good father, so we reunited) has re-entered my life; and in an extremely positive way. I know it's wrong of me to get close to her while married and I'm not trying to, but I find it quite the coincidence that both of our marriages are falling apart simultaneously.

Could it be a sign? My wife says she wants to get help, fix her issues, etc but after years of lies and empty promises how can I trust her?

Chris, please understand that 'round these here parts, unless there is a finalized divorce, any relationship outside the marriage is considered adultery. Your wife may look at it the same as you... or she may not, and it may be another piece of the puzzle about her behavior towards you. It does NOT excuse HER ADULTERY.

A sign? Chris, is this Jon guy a sign for your wife? It's not a sign, Chris. It's you doing something you shouldn't; talking about your marital problems with a woman who is not your wife.

Put the breaks on, and cut her out.

You aren't evil, or strange, or weird. I felt this temptation myself at one point, but recognized it early, and ran for the hills.

Chris, you are not single so STOP acting like it.


Any woman that is willing to "reenter" your life while you are still married is someone with big and someone I would stay far away from.

My wife was just a girlfriend back then and we were separated. As it stands the ex-gf is just a friend. I'm not talking about my marital problems with her and I'not trying to hook up with her. Like I said, "I know it's wrong and I'm not trying to."

Didn't realize talking to someone was acting single. To get technical I've known this person for 18 years or so. Longer than I've known my wife. She was a great friend and basically family before she became a g/f. She isn't just doing this because of my marital problems. I've actually been giving her advice on hers so our communication has basically opened back up after a year or so of not really talking.

Huh? This "someone" is an ex GF...which is a big NO-NO! And this "talking" is about your troubled marriages which is another NO-NO!!

Stay away from this MARRIED ex-GF or you will be heading into your own affair! You are already starting to sound foggy, Chris...seriously.

Your W was RIGHT to be jealous. Married people do NOT have opposite sex friendship. You need to work on your boundaries!

Chris, in the interests of heading you off at the pass:

EVERYbody has an account in our Love Banks. Their account may be in the negative (e.g., the crummy neighbor who lets his dog poop on your yard), or it may be in the positive (e.g., your W when you two first got together).

This includes your ex-GF. The scary thing is that her balance has been proven to be positive in the past, and every time you and she talk, you are both making deposits into each other's Love Banks - thereby boosting whatever balances were there already.

The tricky thing about this is that we don't come programmed with a Love Bank Balance Meter. You don't know what the magic number of Love Unit deposits is until you're past it - the point where you feel warm and fuzzy thoughts toward this person.

THAT'S why boundaries are important. Since you DON'T know when someone's going to tip their Love Bank Balance with you into "love" feelings, you have to maintain strong boundaries to protect your Love Bank - to effectively close it to any deposits other than those that are rightfully made: e.g., your wife's.

Sure, your (W)W isn't stellar at meeting your needs right now. That's why you have the board here, safe outlets in real life, etc. - NOT ex-GF's. That's got to have a huge "DANGER DANGER DANGER" sign flashing over it.

Even if your (W)W hasn't protected your M, you can.

Are "Friends" a Threat to Your Marriage?

ITA!!!

Appreciate the constructive post, instead of the accusations everyone else is throwing out.

I do look at it like this and I'm not trying to hit the "love threshhold." She's a lifetime friend, and yes even an ex-gf, but that doesn't mean we can't remain friends. I do not tell her my marriage problems, I'm not shooting her compliments and or trying to gain support. I'm just a friend and we just talk. The dilemna I mention is the fact that she is providing that need to me that my wife is not (communication), which at this time is one of the largest of my needs due to the physical distance. Does it deposite love units? Sure. I know this. But will it ever go past a friendship? Nope. Not unless my wife and I divorce, and it won't be because I have another girl lined up (which I don't, she's married too). I'm not okay with the "no opposite sex friends" marriage rule, it's probably the only one I don't agree with. It creates opportunities, but what doesn't? Put on some makeup, dress up nice, talk to your waiter at the restaurant, pay a cashier at a store versus buying stuff online, etc; it all creates opportunies. It's on the individual to not put themselves in a bad situation and resist temptations. If my wife can't resist temptation then she will obviously be highly encouraged to move on. To me this rule just seems like an excuse to not trust your spouse.

One thing my wife will never get rid of is male friends. I'm more than happy to give up my female friends, and I have, but she isn't. So, given that fact, I'm not going to go to any great strides to discontinue this relationship. I've already exposed it to my wife and made sure she was okay with it. I've explained to her the details of our conversations and limited information sharing. My wife is fine with it.

I know you MB worshippers will hate me and criticize me for saying that but oh well, it's not the end all be all of rules and my wife isn't part of the MB program nor will she ever be. I've looked through it, read up on it, studied it, presented it to my wife, and tried to incorporate it, but it's not happening. If only one person is on the program it's pointless.

This type of thinking is why affairs start. Once you start letting someone else meet your ENs, it is a slippery slope, Chris. You are already starting to rationalize with some foggy thinking, I think you contradicted yourself a few times in this last post.

Please don't do this. Conversation is one of the four Intimate Needs. It will soon follow that you will need to have the other three met.

You are already in your mind trying to justify this relationship. You are comparing XGF with WW.

Take care of your marriage first. R or D. Get this done first before adding this other drama. Take it from me, this is not a road you want to be traveling.

Chris, none of this is easy, regardless of the details - EA, PA, LTA, RA, you name it. It's even worse when the BS is asked to go without his or her needs being met, and their Taker is just waiting to be set free.

But no one ever said the right thing to do was also the easy thing to do. As you mentioned, this ex-GF is meeting a need for you, and I bet it feels really good to finally scratch that it, so to speak. Does that mean you should do it, though?

If you can't continue on with your (W)W's behavior, if you can't remain committed to the M and live it how she, you, and it deserve it to be, then you need to leave. You may not want to see it this way right now, but you are incredibly vulnerable and are playing with fire. You are justifying your continued need-meeting with the ex-GF, you are going outside of your M to get your needs met JUST LIKE YOUR (W)W IS (which is why you came here in the first place, remember - her betrayal of you and the M), and you seem like you're about to flip the bird to your ideal M.

I may be wrong, but please: I think more often than not it's an old flame that becomes the AP, and, as Susie said, it's a slippery slope. Once you start down it, you won't know until it's too late to turn back.

and


Does this make sense to you? If it does, you are seriously fogged out and heading down the same road as your wife - the road that leads straight to divorce.

I'm sorry to see this happen to your family.

The above is how my H's EA started (OW met EN of conversation). They were "just friends", he was not even attracted to her. He wasn't expecting an EA to happen. In fact, his statement that he repeated over and over following dday was "I didn't want an affair to happen. We were just talking!"

In addition to Dr Harley's warning that this is how most affairs start, it is also well documented in the many threads here on the forum.

So I assume your assertion is that you are somehow different than my FWH and all the other F?WSs here? If so, how? Can you explain this to me?

So you're saying because your spouse cheated, or someone else's spouse cheated, I TOO will cheat? That's a bold assumption. I'm already leagues ahead of your spouses in admitting that I have a friendship. This puts me leagues ahead of your spouses in preventing anything serious. I don't care what Dr Harvey says about love banks; it does not guarantee cheating. There has to be a WANT or DESIRE to do it. I have neither. In 12 years of marriage to my wife there has never been desire or want to cheat, despite all of our problems and my close friends. I am not some weak minded individual.

I'm not trying to justify this friendship. I'm not. I'm merely saying that until my wife is willing to make the same sacrifice I have made TWICE (removal of opposite sex friends) I'm not going to do it a third time. I've already done everything I'm supposed to do: exposure, recovery, plan a, etc. My wife is not making any effort to meet my intimate needs. My wife is still making zero effort to stop talking to this Jon guy, nor will she ever. And unlike her, I have the willpower to resist temptations and put myself in a vulnerable position. We've always had opposite sex friendships but she's the only one who can't seem to keep her head on straight.

WOW. If this isn't some of the most wayward speak out of a "betrayed" husband's mouth, then I am going bonkers.

You are going to put your children through a LIFETIME of DEVASTATION because you can't stand up and show them what it means to be a honest man who lives his life with integrity.

Having opposite sex friends is BAD FOR MARRIAGE. Not about you being able to have a female "friend"(BTW, my WH said that OW was his FRIEND too until I installed a keylogger and SAW the truth) to get back at your WW for having an A. This is an IMMATURE response, like my one son justifying hitting his brother because, "HE HIT ME FIRST." I always say, "I DON'T CARE. It is WRONG to hit and you know it." Well, unless you are single it is ALWAYS wrong to have a female "friend" who would be in a position of meeting ENs. And if you don't believe in DrH's basic concepts about the Love bank, what are you doing here anyways?

Your whole statement assumes I find opposite sex relationships wrong. Which I don't. Never have. I find it controlling to tell someone who they can be friends with. If you can't control yourself then you don't deserve to be trusted. It's that simple.

It's when you CAN be trusted but your spouse refuses to do it that creates issues. It's when you beg for trust yet do stupid [censored] when no one is looking that creates issues. I agree a lot of these rules are the MB program is great. But just because I think it's great doesn't mean I have to agree with every single detail of it. It could be the best for me, just like that toyota could be the best for my needs. May not fit them 100%, but it's the best.

You assuming I'm not an honest man because I have a friend is a bit naive. I would never do anything to jeopardize my marriage. The program is about making each other happy. If she's not willing to give up opposite sex friends why should I? If she does I will gladly do it. I'm already two up on her so the proof is there even though proportionally my two is about 66.7% of my total opposite sex friends where Jon is only about 5% of hers. And I didn't just say I was going to stop talking to them but then start sending them emails or playing games with them. I cut off all contact 100%. Something she has never done or will ever do.

I don't even know what to say. You didn't seem to have a problem with Dr Harley or his principles for the first 20 pages or so of this thread until you realized he wouldn't approve of your relationship with your OW...

You are already in the beginning stages of an EA. I don't know what to say. I really do feel badly for your children. *sigh*

I don't remember ever saying I was against opposite sex relationships, or that I wanted my wife to give up hers. I strictly remember having an issue with WHAT was being said and HOW it was being said.

You're driving a dark, winding mountain path at night.

Other people who have traveled the same path are telling you: drive slow and stick to the mountain side.

You're saying: I'm an EXCELLENT driver! I'm going to drive as close to the edge as possible.

Those who've driven close to the edge and dealt with the destruction afterwards are saying: Please be careful! This is dangerous! We've fallen off the edge before, it isn't pretty.

You reply: How could you be questioning my driving!?!? You don't know me, you don't know what kind of driver I am! I'm going 70. You guys are just wrong.

The thing is... your kids are in the back seat Chris.

If you go full speed 70 miles an hour driving as close to the edge as possible, sure you COULD not fall off the edge. Your skills and luck may conspire to where you DON'T fall off the edge.

But, is it worth it? Is it worth the risk of careening off the cliff with your innocent kids in the car, just to prove how good a driver you are? Just to get the rush and thrill of pleasure?

Because if you DO fall (not saying you will, just that it is VERY likely) it isn't just you taking the dive. It's your kids - who are already falling because of the poor choices of their mother.

Is a friendship with a girl who stokes your ego worth it?

Is it worth the possibility of pain?

If you care about yourself, and your kids, and you're stuck driving down a dark mountain path, you drive as close to the mountain as you can, as slow as you can, and if it's possible you BUILD A DANG GUARDRAIL so there is no chance of falling.

Don't play chicken with your family.

Be the parent they need.

SOMEONE has to think about these kids, put their needs and desires first. It's left to you, since their mom sure as heck isn't.

Is a 'friendship' with another woman worth it?

If she is a true friend, and you tell her you need to be there for your kids, you can't invest emotionally in a friendship right now, she'll understand.