Exodus, you absolutely did not offend me! I have no personal investment in this thread, and I am not taking disagreements as a personal slight to me!

I only rebut arguments on a thread because I believe that if harmful, wrong or misguided advice is being given (in my opinion, of course), it must be challenged there on the thread. I don't think that such advice should rest unchallenged, because doing so gives the impression that the advice is sound.

I only make challenges if I can support my argument with extracts from Dr Harley's articles. It is not a matter of my personal agreement or disagreement. I'm not here to tell the poster what I think, because I have no expertise of my own. I am only here to help with the interpretation of Dr Harley's writings.

You said

Indeed they do. However, when a spouse arrives here because an affair is active, we must first stop the affair and THEN change the conditions of the marriage. The affair is an emergency. If it isn't dealt with urgently, the marriage will end, perhaps because the WS leaves or perhaps because the BS gives up. And since Chris's wife alone is responsible for the affair, then her behaviour must be stopped as a matter of urgency.

Dr Harley's Plan A strategy involves meeting ENs where possible, because it is likely that a void in that area contributed to the WS's decision to have an affair. Part of Plan A also involves a stick, though, because Dr Harley recognises that meeting ENs during an affair is futile 85% of the time. It gives the WS a sense of satisfaction by having the ENs met by both the spouse and the OP. It feeds cake-eating. It can actually prolong the affair.

The greatest importance of Plan A, according to Dr Harley, is to set the stage for Plan B, which will become necessary 85% of the time, because the WS will not stop the affair with Plan A alone. A good Plan A makes Plan B more effective. THAT is its main effect as a weapon.

Dr Harley does not give the advice that has been given here, that a BS should look only at his own behaviour and not make demands of the WS. I don't have time to link the newsletter now, but he has specifically said that a BS should demand the end of an affair. He also does not suggest that addictive or abusive behaviour can be stopped by a BS meeting ENs.

Dr Harley's work suggests that ending an affair is the priority, and that the serious business of meetings ENs comes during the restoration phase.

He does not say "you cannot control your wife" as has been said here. He says that if an affair does not stop, the solution is to separate. He believes in removing oneself from the source of abuse, and not in taking the focus off the abuse and placing it on oneself.

I see a lot of distortion of his advice on this thread. But of course we are on the same side, Exodus, and I appreciate your post.

Hi Chris....

I wish I had more time to offer some advice, but my plate is very full right now.

I did wish to point out that you need to get the book, "Surviving An Affair" by Dr. Willard Harley, Jr.

This book needs to be read cover to cover before you implement any plans.

Making a plan without reading this book is akin to a night mission without having night vision available. You can make too many mistakes.

The biggest disadvantage you have is that you are unable to provide ANY Undivided Attention. You cannot execute much of a Plan A without that being available. I'm sure from the many varied comments you've received that you can already see this obstacle.

There are two posters that I can think of that were military and had some great threads worth reading. One is "Mortarman" and the other is "Amazin". Do a search and see if you can find their names and then click on their posts and start going backwards to read their stories. They did a stellar job and delivered solid MB advice along the way too. When I have some more time I'll try to remember a few of the others that have been where you are and post their names or links to their threads..... I'm sure that would be helpful for you!

I would like to add that, IMHO, unless you ask your wife to STOP her EA behaviors, they will continue unimpeded. And until you ask her to STOP her WoW habits, they will also continue unimpeded. If she continues either of them after you ask her to stop....... You're best bet would be to cover yourself in any way possible while you're away. Then once you rotate home.... The MB plans will have a better shot at working! Best wishes!

Just my .02

I have not distorted any MB principle. Nor did I say this is Chris' fault or he should not make any demands concerning her online activies.

How does a person in plan A dangle the carrot if they don't know how to fill ENs or recognize LBs

Wow lot of replies while I was sleeping. Can't really hit them all so going to touch these last two.


Which is what I'm trying to do with evidence. Talking with her won't work, as already proven. Coming down on her hard and cutting her off will not work, tried it before. I think this situation is going to fall just like the last one. Giving her the evidence I have gathered and then asking her if she is willing to work on making our marriage RIGHT or if she wants out, because the evidence supports the latter.



Exactly. I'm at a severe disadvantage for fighting this battle. My wife has already stated that even though I have no intentions of her still playing when I come home from my tour (for obvious reasons) she would still like to play.

I want to try to curtail this issue way before that but all I have is time.

Will you get RR leave, Chris?

BINGO!! I am just catching up, but hfld is correct. It is impossible to meet the needs of an addict so your best bet is tough love. And that goes double in this case since she is addicted to online games. You need to take strong action.

This is a very tough situation because you are separated which makes it extremely hard to fix this situation while you are away. About the best you can do for now is bust up her bullcrap from afar and take steps to protect your kids.

Chris, I would most certainly not ask her if she wants out. I would focus more on stopping her destructive behavior. And I agree that talkig with her won't work. You can't reason with a falling down drunk.

I am just catching up, but do you have any close relatives who can step in and help? Have you exposed the affair everywhere?

Yeah in June.

Since she is addicted to online games, I would go easy on the carrot part of Plan A since it is impossible to meet the needs of an addict. That is a giant sucking black hole. While he does need to avoid lovebusters, he needs to focus on the STICK part of Plan A. Need meetin a destructive addict is only used as an opportunity for more exploitation.

Parents are about it. Hers I have tried before an accomplished nothing, my dad is just going to tell me to leave her. He doesn't deal with b.s.

The problem is that they live apart. I doubt there has been much lovebusting at all. It is almost impossible to stay in love when you are separated like they are. Adultery is epidemic in military marriages for this reason.

Can you get an early leave? What do her parents say about it? Do they know what she is doing?

Agree. The affair/addiction needs to be stopped before he starts working on the marriage. THAT is where his focus should lie for now. Then once her affair/online addiction is arrested they can work on the marriage.


From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

No early leave and her parents will probably do the same thing they did last time: Nothing.

Can you tell me exactly what was said to them and what their response was? Are there any other relatives who could help? What about your mother?

I showed her parents the logs and where she was telling this guy everything from our finances to our sex life and where she was talking about them having sex, meeting up, etc, told them how addicted she was to the game, that she was neglecting the kids and I, etc.

No other relatives nearby and my mother is deceased. My step-mom is disabled so she can't do anything without my dad.

Did you ask them to help her and do something to protect your kids?

Of course I did. I already talked about this and what happened. She blew enough smoke up their butts until they backed off.

I went back and found a post where they blew it off, where she told them it was a joke. Why can't you contact them AGAIN and give them the facts and ask them to intervene?

Chris, since there may have been some confusion as we have talked about carrots, sticks, and Plan A, this is how Dr. Harley explains it:

So, then, what is plan A and plan B?

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement (Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse) helps identify and prevent instances of thoughtlessness.

A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.

In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.

I mentioned earlier that the betrayed spouse should avoid selfish demands, disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts during plan A. And I also suggested following the Policy of Joint Agreement. But when it comes to infidelity, I should clarify what I mean by selfish demands and describe a notable exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement.

How can a betrayed spouse insist that the wayward spouse end the affair unless a demand is made? The answer is found in the way I define a selfish demand.

Demands carry a threat of punishment -- an if-you-refuse-me-you'll- regret-it kind of thing. In other words, you may dislike what I want, but if you don't do it, I'll see it it that you suffer even greater pain.

To insist that the wayward spouse end the affair should not be made with the threat of punishment ("I'm make you suffer if you don't end it"), but rather with the simple fact that it's the most painful experience you've ever had in your life, and if the affair is not ended, your relationship must end with either a separation or divorce. To end the marital relationship is not punishment: It's to protect your own mental and physical health.

The most important exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement is that when your health and safety are at risk, the default condition (doing nothing until an enthusiastic agreement is reached) should not be followed.

As an obvious example of when the policy is inappropriate, if your spouse is threatening your life with physical abuse, you should not continue to subject yourself to that threat while trying to find a mutual enthusiastic agreement. You should leave your spouse immediately even though your departure would not be with your spouse's enthusiastic agreement.

The same type of problem exists when a betrayed spouse is subjected to the emotional suffering caused by infidelity. Plan A has emotional consequences that should not be ignored. If left in plan A too long, long-term mental and physical damage can occur.

Another exception to the Policy of Joint Agreement when confronting infidelity is what I've called, "exposure." I highly recommend that while in plan A you tell your friends, family, the lover's spouse, your pastor, and possibly your wayward spouse's employer that your spouse is having an affair. It's a very controversial recommendation, and a clear violation of the Policy of Joint Agreement. But I've found exposure to be one of the most effective ways to end an affair quickly while in plan A.

But your effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, and even exposure, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.