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Originally Posted by DJB1971
I don't know to what extent that is true. Yes you are correct, but I think it's more that she is scared to death of getting re-attached to me and then it happening again. I can see it develop. If she starts being loving and or gets that spark back in her eye for a couple days or sometimes even hours she gets mad for no apparent reason and backs WAY off.

As far as my last sentence it was probably 75-25 before with me getting to make most of the choices, what we watched, where we ate, etc now it's reversed. I'll go out of my way to get breakfast for her sometimes on my way home. Whereas if it wasn't on the way before I wouldn't do it, etc. Little things. But yes I tend to wait on her hand and foot at the house now.
Okay, thanks for your reply. Can you tell me how much UA time you spend together each week?


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Barring the 2 1/2 weeks vacation alone this summer, Less than 5 hrs alone time without kids or TV.

I think she avoids alone time as much as possible now because she knows it's going to lead to me wanting SF, and let me clarify...she does still want it, it just upsets her every time we do so she avoids it 90% of the time.

(Yes I'm well aware that I should let her come to me when SHE is ready, but apparently my needs overwhelm my brain)

Also can someone point me in the direction of Plan A so I can go over it again...thank you.

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Originally Posted by DJB1971
Barring the 2 1/2 weeks vacation alone this summer, Less than 5 hrs alone time without kids or TV.

I think she avoids alone time as much as possible now because she knows it's going to lead to me wanting SF, and let me clarify...she does still want it, it just upsets her every time we do so she avoids it 90% of the time.

(Yes I'm well aware that I should let her come to me when SHE is ready, but apparently my needs overwhelm my brain)
So you're spending no time together alone, and when you ARE alone she equates it to sex? Huh. No wonder she's avoiding you. You both have different ideas of what UA time should be, and SF is evidently not one of her most important emotional needs.

DJB, you're going to have to help her to fall in love with you again. This is going to require a concentrated effort to carve out 25-30 hours of undivided attention each week. You can't go thirsty for months (no UA time) and then slug down 10 gallons of water in one sitting (a vacation.) In order to successfully recover, you're going to need to commit to this time together as a consistent part of your marital life.

My H and I spend at least 20 hours a week of UA time. We are actively aware of UA and are committed to making that our priority. When we get busy with other things during the week and start to neglect UA time, we can see the difference. We get a little cranky with each other. smile When we try to pack it into a few weekend days and don't maintain it during the weekdays, we get cranky. When we are meeting our UA hours, we are loving and thoughtful. That's not an accident. It's a by-product.

It just works better to spread it throughout your days. Saving it for vacations will not work.

Do this: make a list of things you would like to do with your wife. Exclude any activity that involves electronics (computer, TV, movies.) Keep it simple; it should be something that is easy to implement. Keep your W's top emotional needs in mind while making the list.

Have your W make a list as well, if she is willing. (Do yours regardless.)

I'm going to give you an example of what H & I do, sorry for the wordiness, but maybe it will help you see what I mean:

H & I enjoy going through recipe books and finding a dish we've never made before that requires a lot of ingredients. The more obscure the better. We make a shopping list of the items we need. We go to the store to get the items. Often we will travel 1/2 hour to a neat little market in our nearest big city and will poke through the exotic spice booths, etc., to find the items on our list.

After we get all of our ingredients we'll hop across the street to enjoy a cold micro-brew at a well-known brewery in that town. We'll each try a different new brew and compare them.

That will total 4 hours alone (and we haven't even made the food yet!). During that time, we are chatting about anything under the sun. Think about when you were dating - you didn't drive places in grim silence. You were actively engaged with the other person and made effortless conversation. It's like that. I have a need for true conversation (not just check-ins throughout the day on the phone) and it's beautifully filled that way. H makes big deposits into my LB on those outings and while we're preparing our meal.

Makes me all warm and fuzzy toward him, KWIM? blush


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DJB, the key to falling in love again is spending undivided attention time. This program will not work without it. This step will make all the difference and it will do it quickly. I would get the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook [they sell it cheap on this website] and pull out the undivided attention worksheet in the back and make copies.

Sit down with your wife and schedule 25-30 hours per week of undivided attention time meeting the top 4 intimate needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. No TV, no kids, no distractions. <----that is the key

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
But fifteen hours a week is usually not nearly enough time for couples that are not yet in love. To help them jump-start their relationship, I usually suggest twenty-five or thirty hours a week of undivided attention until they are both in love with each other again.

Your time together is too important to the security of your marriage to neglect. It's more important than time spent doing anything else during the week, including time with your children and your job. Remember that the time you should set aside is only equivalent to a part-time job. It isn't time you don't have; it's time you will use for something less important, if you don't use it for each other.
Policy of Undivided Attention


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Thank you for the lengthy response Bliss, and thanks for coming onto the thread Melody...I've been waiting for you...lol.

This is going to be a chore because she recently started working at a Model home selling houses in a subdivision and the owner wants her there 7 days a week. Plus she is trying to juggle her own start-up business on the side. Add the fact we have a 4 yr old girl. I'm a fireman who's gone for 24 hours at a time..We have no hobbies to speak of besides TV we enjoy together. Guess I need to work on finding some cheap free hobbies for us O_o


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From Dr. Harley:
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Most men eventually learn that if they spend the evening giving their wife their undivided attention, with conversation and affection, sex becomes a very natural and mutually enjoyable way to end the evening.
DJB, re-read my afternoon with my H. Here's what happened:
We both have a need for recreation, and that was addressed by our shopping adventure.

We both have a need for affection and that was addressed by holding hands, paying attention to what the other person was saying, etc.

I have a need for conversation. Check.

H has a need for SF. No problem. We've both had a great day. We've spent the afternoon making deposit after deposit into each other's LB and are feeling pretty intimate toward each other. Right after dinner. grin Check.

One note: don't start UA time with your W and expect SF after the first few times. She's going to need some LB deposits before you get to that.


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Originally Posted by DJB1971
Thank you for the lengthy response Bliss, and thanks for coming onto the thread Melody...I've been waiting for you...lol.

This is going to be a chore because she recently started working at a Model home selling houses in a subdivision and the owner wants her there 7 days a week. Plus she is trying to juggle her own start-up business on the side. Add the fact we have a 4 yr old girl. I'm a fireman who's gone for 24 hours at a time..We have no hobbies to speak of besides TV we enjoy together. Guess I need to work on finding some cheap free hobbies for us O_o

DJB, let me help you get started:
Build On This. Skip No. 5


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Some daily things that sapph and I do for UA time are very basic things. Like going to the gym together and working out side by side, not separate.

I come home for lunch for an hour, and we eat together. Dinner together is good too. Always at the table with no TV and electronics. (kids are there, but we try to make the most of it)

Going out for hot chocolate in the winter, and smoothies in the summer.

Going to church together, although this is isnt totally undivided due to trying to keep kids quiet, but there are needs being filled there.

UA time should be easy enough to make a routine. I know it is tough with young kids, we have a DS4 and DS2, but we try our best.

Just today we were saying that we get most our needs filled except conversation, the kids always interrupt, it is something we are trying to figure out.

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Thank you for all the ideas everyone. I will work on it.

At least SOME of the problem isn't the Love bank deposits though. She gets plenty of those. It's just the fact that as soon as she starts thinking about SF or initiates it she starts picturing me with th OW. And either starts crying or lashes out at me before during or after. And for about the last month she has tried to avoid it altogether because she's sick of it making her upset.

The getting upset during kissing & SF seems to have gotten WORSE with time or maybe it's that it's not any better yet and she's tired of it. Either way it's getting less and less.

AS far as her cuddling or snuggling that has gotten a lot better over the last few months. (which is great, my top 2 needs) But It's like they are going in opposite directions.



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Originally Posted by Wheels_spinning
Just today we were saying that we get most our needs filled except conversation, the kids always interrupt, it is something we are trying to figure out.

Get a babysitter!! And deduct any time that is interrupted by kids or TV.


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Thank you for all the ideas everyone. I will work on it.
No, no, DJB. YOU are not supposed to work on this. YOU and YOUR WIFE brainstorm UA activities.

Get a babysitter and get out of the house, man! Or send the kids to Grandma's for the night/weekend.



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Originally Posted by DJB1971
This is going to be a chore because she recently started working at a Model home selling houses in a subdivision and the owner wants her there 7 days a week. Plus she is trying to juggle her own start-up business on the side. Add the fact we have a 4 yr old girl. I'm a fireman who's gone for 24 hours at a time..We have no hobbies to speak of besides TV we enjoy together.

DJB, if you schedule 20+ hours of UA time FIRST and then schedule everything else around it, you will find time. Put the model home job and the start up business LAST, hire babysitters for the 4 year old and avoid TV and I promise you can find the 20 hours.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? If not, I would get that, and follow the program in there. But more importantly, find time for UA time and you will start seeing a great change in your marriage.


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And if you are like most americans, you have been making HUGE LB deposits to the TV set for a long time! Just sit down, think about how much time you spend in front of the TV or Computer, etc., and substitute those hours with time alone with your wife.

You can put the kid to bed at 8pm and still have 3 hours before sleep every night.

As someone who works shifts (I'm a nightshift nurse), I know it can be difficult balancing it all, but you MUST!!! Make your wife a priority, visit her at the model home, bring her lunch and eat it with her, offer to go on walks with her after your 4 yo is asleep. Try one month of not expecting sex but just rekindling the flames with your wife. Think of it as dating again.

Those mind movies are a b*tch, and I don't have a perfect plan for your wife to defeat them, but you can help by telling her how much better she is than the OW, and then detailing in what areas she excels (her body, her laugh, her intellingence, whatever means alot to her). I cried the first time we made love after I found out about the A. I felt totally bereft that he could do that with anyone else, share that with anyone else. But he showed me by his actions that he was willing to do anything to help me heal from the trauma. That's what you need to do.



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Bliss - I just talked to her on the phone and told her to start thinking of some things she would like to do besides TV, and she said ok. Good start (if she does it)

Melody - I was positive I had SAA and looked for it this morning to no avail. I found the 6 or 7 other books I listed earlier but not that one? Is plan A just in the book< because I've read so much I honestly can't for sure now that I have read it.

Trust- The TV doesn't get much of my attention unless she's with me. The computer however...

I will definitely try to get off of it even more than I have.
My daughter goes to bed at 8:30 but we aren't strict with it. I will get on that as well. I will try the 1 month no sex again (grrrr)

I have already told her numerous times that she is much better in those areas. I don't think it helps because she knows that already (she knows OW too) which in turn makes her wonder why in the world I would do it, and no matter how beautiful she is or how well she treated me before I still strayed. So why would it be any different this time?

She also says why should I do the special stuff I used to do for you before when it didn't matter?

I really don't have much of a leg to stand on except she loves me.


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Originally Posted by DJB1971
Bliss - I just talked to her on the phone and told her to start thinking of some things she would like to do besides TV, and she said ok. Good start (if she does it)

Melody - I was positive I had SAA and looked for it this morning to no avail. I found the 6 or 7 other books I listed earlier but not that one? Is plan A just in the book< because I've read so much I honestly can't for sure now that I have read it.

You are in the recovery phase, so you need to follow the basic concepts that are in SAA. If you have Five Steps to Romantic Love, find the Undivided attention worksheet in the back, rip it out and make several copies. The key is to sit down and schedule out your time for the week. Write out the dates, times, and activities. plan romantic dinners, long drives, shopping trips, etc.

Quote
I will try the 1 month no sex again (grrrr)

huh?? What is that? Why would you go without sex?? crazy



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Quote
I will try the 1 month no sex again (grrrr)

huh?? What is that? Why would you go without sex?? crazy

[/quote]

Well this has been one of our biggest problems since getting back together in May. We had a good sex life before, but obviously the separation hurt it, and it has gotten steadily worse since reconciling.

It was a topic at almost every one of our counseling sessions in which the counselor would tell us to try and refrain from it (because it was such an ordeal for her)

The poster above you said to refrain from it for a month.
Like I said in an earlier post We probably averaged about 3 times/week before this. After separating and then getting back together it was about once a week. And even then she would get upset or mad in the middle of it. We had sex the 1st week of december and then not at all until the 29th. 25th through the 28th she was more loving and happier than she had been in months so I approached her for sex the next morning. She said NO, and that she didn't have any desire to do that with me any more. dontknow I was obviously crushed by this asked her how we were supposed to live like that, etc and she left for work mad. Calls me 10 minutes later and apologized and said sometimes she's just a crazy b****. So that night we have sex and she starts crying in the middle of it, and says we'd just be better off if she moved back out. I got upset and went to sleep in the other room. She comes in there an hour later begging me to come back to bed with her where she rubbed me and snuggled me 1/2 the night. The next morning she woke up "mad" at me again.

So the sex subject didn't come up again until last night. I asked her if she wanted to and she said "yeah maybe" ( I have to ask now, if I just start rubbing her she just throws my hands off) So I'm thinking "Great!" I lay down next to her for about 5 minutes giving her time, and I'm like "well?" She said "Nah I'm too tired, why would you want to do it with me if you know it's just going to upset me?"

I said I don't want to upset you honey, and left it at that.

So what exactly am I supposed to do? If I approach her I get rejected (which I'm not good with) If I wait for her to approach me, it's never often enough and when we do she gets crys or gets mad which isn't good for either of us.


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Originally Posted by DJB1971
So the sex subject didn't come up again until last night. I asked her if she wanted to and she said "yeah maybe" ( I have to ask now, if I just start rubbing her she just throws my hands off) So I'm thinking "Great!" I lay down next to her for about 5 minutes giving her time, and I'm like "well?" She said "Nah I'm too tired, why would you want to do it with me if you know it's just going to upset me?"

How affectionate are you with her?


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[/quote]

How affectionate are you with her? [/quote]

VERY.

Much more than I ever was before. She will readily admit that she wishes I was this way the whole time we've been together. (8 years) This whole thing has really showed me what I almost lost, and I REALLY want to show her how much she means. I'm TOO clingy if anything.

Tell her I love her all the time. Leave her notes. Send her songs, bought her a rose today and left it on her car while she was in a meeting. I tell her how "hot" she looks when she's dressed for work, and how "beautiful" she looks at night or in the morning (with no makeup on)

She even says there's nothing else I could possibly do to try and make her happy. She's just plagued by what happened. Every time I do something like send her a youtube song, or write her a note, etc. She thinks about me doing that stuff to the other girl or wonder if I did.


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So what exactly am I supposed to do? If I approach her I get rejected (which I'm not good with) If I wait for her to approach me, it's never often enough and when we do she gets crys or gets mad which isn't good for either of us.
How often do you stroke her skin, brush her hair, or do other physical acts like that without expecting it to lead to sex and without asking to have SF? In bed, before you go to sleep?


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DJB,

I think you have to understand that you have given away a sacred part of how your wife views marriage and your relationship, the most intimate thing you could give to someone you love you gave to someone else...........that is a hard process to deal with........all you can do is give her time, however much time she needs.
Don't make the mistake of confusing affection with sex...........right now she needs to feel important to you and not just in the bedroom, she is comparing and wondering about everything, have you answered all her questions, give her permission to ask, maybe there are things she wants to know..........
Be loving and caring when you answer those questions, she needs to know that you don't think the OW is better than her in any way..............
It helped me when my husband always added me in the mix, like I was thinking about you, what do you think, I need your help things like that, made me feel worthwhile to him. All the things she thinks you did for the OW, make sure you add I was thinking of you.............thought I would do something for YOU......
All I can say is it takes time, she is afraid to give herself to you, she doesn't want to take the chance of getting hurt or feeling 2nd best.............once you have been replaced it's a tough road back.........
Patience my friend......Time heals all.............................
Good luck


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