just do what you are doing, tell him it's up to him but you will never give up on him that you think he is worth waiting for and rebuilding with.
then get on with the new you........show him with actions..............
if he wanted to leave he would be gone wouldn't he, this is a sign for you, he is still trying to get everything straight in his head give him that time.

Thank you jessitaylor. I guess I haven't done it that way that he makes the decision and he will file if that is what he really wants, not the decision is mine like right now. He is putting me in a position where I decide if we file this spring on our visit home or after my next year of work. If I stay in this foreign country he would stay with me but as a friend. But he did say if he ever found someone he would pursue it (if it could be long term not one night).

He says he's only staying because he can't work in this foreign country right now and it's the only way he can stay here. I pay all the bills and I am helping him pay for his education.

I will write him a letter telling him how I feel and put the ball in his court.

You let him file for D. It's not over until that D is finalized. Don't let anything other than that day convince you otherwise.


That's just lip service. That isn't forgiveness. I will tell you straight up, right now, that I haven't forgiven my FWW. That was one of the first things that drove me NUTS.

How can I forgive this?

It's hard to forgive the person who cut your heart out while they are standing in front of you with the knife. They have to put the knife down, come at you gently, and help to tend the wound that they created. They can't be trusted while you are still bleeding... only after the bleeding has stopped, and healing has began can they be trusted to be close.




Again, he can't really see the future. Instead, he is making plans on showing you exactly what you screwed up, what you gave up with your choice to wander.

When he talks about having a life with someone else, what is unspoken is; "...and it could have been with you, but you decided to turn your back on me for petty reasons. Now I WILL be happy without YOU."

He is asserting that he doesn't need you in his life to be happy.

In a way, he HAS to. You have just demonstrated how little he means to you, how utterly disposable he is. To get his own feet back underneath him, he is going to imagine standing without you.


If you give up, you just prove he doesn't mean anything.


Or so he says. Understand that this is probably self-protective dishonesty. And he isn't just being dishonest to you, he is telling HIMSELF this lie to protect himself from YOU getting back inside.


Correct, and he may not. But you don't get to decide. You don't get to set that pace. He does. If you make the call for him, not only is that a disrespectful judgement, but if you make the wrong call (he won't come around) then again you show him how easy it is for you to give up, to walk away.





It gets much MUCH harder before it ever gets easier. Ask anyone in recovery, or anyone who has recovered.


As long as it takes. You aren't killing his affair, so the "6 weeks of Plan A for women" thing doesn't really apply in a dead-set manner.


You come up with a goal, you come up with a plan. You follow that plan until you achieve your goal. You will stumble, trip, and fumble... but that should not stop you from moving toward your goal... if you really want it.

HHH thank you.

I am going to hang in there. Thanks for the drama queen comment, that made me laugh and realize that sometimes I can be one.:S I need to stop feeling sorry for myself and keep moving on. I also need to get control of my emotions and stop flip flopping around based on his comments but on what I want and see for us.

I took jessi's comment and asked him tonight what does he want in terms of when he wants with this whole relationship and the divorce proceedings. He told me that it was my decision because in his mind/heart he has already divorced me. So I think I will be strong and stick by him with Plan A until spring 2012 or until he finds someone else that he wants to start a new life with. We spend 1-2 nights apart now after the recent development (his choice not mine). We had stopped that for a short bit till he changed his mind recently. Now he has opposite sex friends as well. I only have one opposite sex friend here and he is gay. He said if he found someone (which he doubts) in the next year he will be honest to me about it.

So I think my plan is to support the both of us for the next year, housing, food, bills, his tuition payments and try to be there for him as much as possible. Help him with his schooling which I have been the past couple of months since he started studying again. (I help him upload things, discuss things, edit) So I will pursue my own goals, better myself and help him with his goals the best I can.

I will take the friends with benefits things and living arrangement and see how it goes.

Tonight was pretty much the last talk we will have until I make a final decision about my work and what country I plan to be in this spring. He doesn't like to talk about anything relating to the relationship so I am backing off (makes him unhappy, uncomfortable, pain, etc).

So try Plan A until next spring...:)

Sorry one more thing.

How should I deal with the fact he is now open to a serious relationship with other women if he happens to meet one? (Even though he says he is not actively looking for one, and all he wants is a friends with benefits...no strings attached which he said he was willing to do with me if there were no strings attached). He basically said no I am not actively looking to get in a relationship with someone else especially something serious. But if I meet that someone who I can see myself with for a long time it's not fair for me to not pursue it and vice versa. What he looks for in a long term relationship is personality and knowing the person well.
He says we are starting over from scratch as friends. But it was more likely he would get into a relationship with another female friend than me b/c of our history.

What does that all mean and how should I take it?

Sorry I am trying to set out a proper plan and goals over the next few weeks on where to go from here...I think I got it figured out but need to finalize it.

He's playing a dangerous game, and his vulnerability to an RA are tremendous.

After betrayal, contrast effect is huge.

I'd rather a longer-term vet answer on this, but I really think you should be somewhat assertive about his activity with opposite sex friends.

"I understand that I have hurt you, and I understand that you have decided to divorce me, but until that time, I want what remains of our marriage to be the best that it possibly can be. I cannot do that when you give your time and attention to other women, even if you only see them as 'friends.' I am willing to give up my opposite-sex relationships as well."

Dunno. Someone else might have a better plan...

Well I told him something along those lines but he said we're not in a marriage anymore:S

That's why I am having some issues making a decision about my plans.

He doesn't want a long term relationship at this point in time. But yes he is vulnerable. I know that he doesn't really discuss our problems with anyone anymore..even his family (maybe because I am so close to them as well).

But he's having these nights out apart. Female friends that he hangs out with. But he is not interested in any of them at the moment. Some of them are married or in a relationship.

He says he will do his best to try and not hurt me but no promises.

So where to go from here? He sees me as a friend right now...and that his friends/new friends ...well basically like this...more likely to start a relationship with someone else than me again...

confused!

Also would like to add that he had thought about an RA for a month or so but then decided against it cause that was not what he had really wanted.

I am just not sure where to go from here with all that he has said. I believe him when he says I am not looking for someone right now, and probably won't until a bit after we sign the papers. But he says that if he finds someone that he thinks he can be with for a long time then he won't give it up....What does it all mean??

As well, it should be noted he has passive aggressive traits.

All very strange. After I told him twice this week about the plans I have been making for long term goals for my career and individual goals in terms of personal growth. We've had SF way more than in the past few weeks and there was no awkwardness at all unlike the times I had pressured him about this relationship.

I told him I no longer hold high expectations for him to come around but would be very happy if he did. He knows that I will not have long conversations about this mess as it causes triggers for him, or force him to try things that I think may help us unless he is okay with it (basically stop being pushy). I have come to accept that he may never come around but that doesn't mean it can't happen and that I should stop trying on my end (still in plan a). But that I am making decisions based on what I think is best for the current situation and consulting him. I discuss these plans with him even though they don't include all involve him. I told him I accept the situation we are in, that he sees us as friends with benefits. I told him I am happy having his company around and enjoying the time we spend together despite the circumstances. I discuss the pros/cons of his choices for the future as well. I told him I am enjoying what I can get out of this situation. He knows that I am sorry I hurt him deeply and that I have been a terrible wife.

Am I doing the right thing? Even though we are discussing things like we're going to separate. I am still in Plan A and doing things on my side but no longer forcing him to participate or expecting him to participate and make this better. Seems like the whole idea of me making plans for my life as I see fit seems to have made him more comfortable around me. (or maybe he feels no pressure anymore now that he thinks I have come to term with the possibility of divorce). I am not trying to play games if that is what anyone thinks. Just planning for the best and worse case and being open with BH.


And talking to Harley this or next Friday...trying to change my appointment.

He's aware I am talking to Harley in the next bit. As well I told him that I still love him and care for him a lot. But that there is no pressure on him, in the end it's his decision and willingness. I am just deciding the length of Plan A now, another 3 months or 15 months (the job lately has been making me think i should leave it but it also means leaving this relationship...). Just the lack of boundaries he has makes me concerned about how likely he will turn it around. Is that selfish of me? Am I doing it wrong?

And hopefully I get insight into this with Harley.

Hi there again, I think you are doing a good job, this is all you can do right now, Plan A the best you can, be understanding with him and give him the time he needs to process, but you should set some kind of dead line to the Plan A and then if he still isn't responding then you have to think about Plan B.
Maybe this is the start of him learning to trust you again and feeling safe around you..........don't give him any reason to doubt your commitment, just keep saying the same things, that you are sorry and that you won't give up on the marriage, you will fight for what you think is important............My husband and I also discussed life apart I think that helped, he could imagine what a different life might be like with a different woman............giving up the history is a hard thing to do..........
Make sure he knows that you won't continue forever like this that he will have to decide at some point..........
I always told my husband I would make sure his last memories of me and our life together were good ones so we could move on as good friends if that was all we were to each other.......
It almost at times seemed like when I backed off a little he would start to reach out to me.....................they start to miss the new you, the woman they have always wanted.......be that woman............and be patient..........

Thanks Jessi for your words of encouragement.

I was wondering how do I decide how long for Plan A since I am not killing off an affair. What factors or things should I take into consideration? I don't want to go too long and have him start dating on me ...but I don't want to give up too soon and regret it.

Hi again LL123,
Well I guess that is up to how long you can hang on to the feelings you still have left for him, there will be a lot of rejections with his attitude......
I did the Plan A for about 4 months, the spring was my deadline.......I figured that was enough time for both of us to decide if the marriage was worth continuing..
I approached like that a two way decision.......
It's not healthy for you to go to long, I would say if he starts dating someone else that this is where Plan B might have to happen.....I think he should at least respect you and your marriage vow until you two are not living together.
Tell him that if this is what he choses you will have to chose your own decisions based on that, that you feel you cannot work on a marriage when someone else is also involved, you have to still have self respect and integrity.........
He will understand and respect that about you.
Just keep Plan Aing and see if he comes around...

Yea I figured if he started dating that would instantly be Plan B. But I guess I need a little more time to decide how long Plan A. I think mine might be around that same time as I have been in Plan A pretty much from when he left the first time in Sept. But this time I have love busting less this month. So it would be about 4 more months in Plan A. I just don't know how long I can last at this job and country. I just don't want to seem like I am giving up but I think if he doesn't turn around in the next few months he probably won't...but I will be talking to Harley next week and get his input.

Could be the lack of pressure/expectations... very well could be hysterical bonding.

Continue to curb your expectations and do your best Plan A - continue to be open and honest and account for your time, and be transparent.


Partial PoJA, move it into full PoJA - even if he walks, it will be good practice for you moving forward.


There is a "stick" in Plan A, remember? This may work... for a while. You are going to have to draw him back into a marriage at some pont.


Careful with this - DJ-land. Kk?


The only reason for you to think about those past mistakes, is to make sure you never repeat them. No. other. reason.



Just my own opinion, but be careful with the demonstrations of "preparing with life without him." Marriage is about interdependence. As a man, what kept me in the home those first few months was the natural caretaker. I just couldn't walk unless I felt FWW could take care of herself without me. Of course, it was a DJ - she had to be able to take care of herself as I saw fit.

If it weren't for that, I probably would have been gone. Not to say I'd still be gone... that I can never know.

Remember, a good deal of men want to be needed and wanted. It's a dangerous gamble to demonstrate (again - the A demonstrated it once) that he is not needed.


And talking to Harley this or next Friday...trying to change my appointment.

He's aware I am talking to Harley in the next bit. As well I told him that I still love him and care for him a lot. But that there is no pressure on him, in the end it's his decision and willingness. I am just deciding the length of Plan A now, another 3 months or 15 months (the job lately has been making me think i should leave it but it also means leaving this relationship...). Just the lack of boundaries he has makes me concerned about how likely he will turn it around. Is that selfish of me? Am I doing it wrong?

And hopefully I get insight into this with Harley. [/quote]

To HHH. Thanks for your input. I am doing the best that I can to curb my expectations which so far has been helping. Hanging out with him has been more fun and the conversations have been better along with SF. I am completely open and honest with him and transparent. He knows what I do with my time and who I am with.

Trying my best for POJA. He was the one who came up with the all the options that I had and we discussed it and narrowed it down. We also did it for his as well, I tried not to display any DJ, just trying to be not bias and discussing the pro/cons of each of the options he was picking. Even when I talk about the plans I try to say something like if it comes down to this...so he knows I haven't exactly given up but in a non pushy way.

I don't know if I am doing it wrong but I was hoping that if he could see that I was strong, had a good self-esteem and set goals that would be part of drawing him back. I know he said recently when we discussing his class, he said was attracted to independent women (which I haven't been for a long time).

I am trying to show him that I have changed all the things about myself that led me to cheat on him. As well, I have been trying to clean the house, take good care of myself, be respectful of his wishes/decisions and be there for him. I try to make every minute we spend together enjoyable for the both of us...which we seem to be.

I am trying to find a fine balance between both ends. Still working on it..but hoping to show him I still want and need him. I think I show him that I want him but the needing part I have to find a fine balance because if I show him too much he tries to run.

So I've been doing Plan A and we've been getting along. But earlier this week, he came home quite trashed. He ended up starting a discussion with me. Still not understanding why. I tried to explain to him that various factors caused it, one of them being my lack of boundaries (spending alone time with men) and poor self esteem. It didn't help him any, he said he only sees things as black and white. I don't exactly understand to this day why I did something like that. (hurting the person I claimed to have cared about)

I told him he was not to blame. But he was quite upset because he said when it happened it was the best point in our marriage in his mind. That made be start crying for all the pain, suffering I have inflicted.

We talked about it, he is still angry and resentful. He hasn't forgiven me as I can tell by talking to him. He still gets the same physiological reactions he did when he found out. He has trouble breathing, it makes him feel ill.

I really wish I could help. I told him if he wanted he could join my coaching session with Harley this week but he refused. The worst part is that he mentioned that some point in his life he will need counseling, I wish he would try now. But I can't change how he feels.

What can I do? I wish I could do something to help as he's still at the same point he was when he found out. He's just better at keeping it bottled.

I wrote him an email the other day and told him it's not that I stopped trying and that I don't care. I am still trying and waiting for him to come back.

He told me throughout the marriage until last summer, he was always deciding whether he wanted to be in this relationship. That it was months before I cheated, he finally decided he was fully committed and I ruined it all.

What do you guys think of it all?

So I tried to give power to my BH to make the decision divorce this spring or stay another year and see. He refused and said since I made the mistake it was in my court. I even talked to Harley so I took his advice the best I could.

So we did go over the why's. But unfortunately BH thinks I cheated because I thought I could get away with it and I was presented with an opportunity. I tried to explain that I put boundaries in place now to reduce opportunities and to prevent males from building up a love bank enough to cause attraction. And that I learned I should have been open and honest about the situation then we could have stopped it. That I learned my lesson. But he doesn't think it's enough. He believes my words now that I will not cheat again, but he doesn't believe in the far future that is the case. He just can't/won't trust me.

He even went as far to tell me harm the OM. That would be a big step in earning his trust as it would be leverage for him if I ever cheated again....I told him I could never harm another human being even though I loved him and wanted him back, it just isn't right.

At first, I decided this spring but I felt wrong and sad about my decision. Now I am staying in this country for one more year, no more. I realized that if we separated I was financially stable for a bit, had an interview at an in-laws company for a very promising job and a place to rent from my in-laws at a low price. But my BH doesn't have any options for the most part especially with an unfinished degree. I guess this is my compensation is to ensure that he has potential and finishes that degree we said he would. I thought it would be best not to leave him with a broken heart and broken dreams. I am taking a huge risk though but we all have take risks sometimes right?

He told me he is giving me something to work with. He said what kind of friendship states that we don't date other people or to not have one night stand. He is giving me an extra year and what I do with that is up to me. He said he didn't want to make the hard decision cause it was a hard one and it meant ending the arrangement we have now. To be done and over. But he still isn't willing to try and still forsees a divorce next year. He said that my chances of making this work were low either way but lower if I left this spring.

So it's quite confusing. We spend 4-6 nights together. We talk about his school work, watch movies, play games, etc. But not much for outside activity and I've just stopped pushing and taking what he is willing to give.

Also, he said how much time should he give me to prove to him I could be trusted. He gave me 6 years and I threw it in his face. That he can't wait another 6 years to see if I do it again.He says he knows if he put in effort it would work but he doesn't feel like it.

He feels some guilt as well because he thinks I am giving up a lot in staying and that he may have manipulated me. But I guess this is the decision that makes me the happiest yet hurts a lot.

This is a confusing and difficult situation...

I'm confused by this... but, I'm a rookies, so who knows.

It seems like you were putting a timeline on recovery for him. I could just be reading this wrong.


The best thing he can learn, is that he shouldn't trust you, and that he should have total transparency from you - nothing less.

His thoughts about it are exactly what happened; you thought - in your foggy wayward mind - that you could get away with it. You had the opportunity, and you took it.

The reality was something completely different than what you believed - and even "getting away with it" was of no positive consequence, it brought only pain and guilt when it came into the light.

Add dishonesty (hiding what happened) to the mix, and you start to get an idea of where he is.


Harm the OM how? What he is asking for is a demonstration that the OM means nothing to you.

Exactly what harm did he request? Exposure? That's not harm, that's protection, that's honesty, that's integrity.


Your compensation is based on his behavior? What exactly are you risking here?

Your compensation has nothing to do with his degree, with his behavior. That's some foggy talk; "let's see if he will do what he said he would!"

Just compensation is in transparency, EP's, and radical honesty, not in how your presence or lack thereof affects his education.


He is giving you what he is capable of at this point while still protecting himself from further harm. He's a turtle peeking out of his shell - what has to be seen when he peeks is action, commitment... possibly remorse.


Good. Avoid LB's, meet EN's - be a pleasant companion. THAT is how you build a LB$ balance - not by leveraging expectations. Again, you are drawing him back in.


He can't know how long it takes. Maybe it would take 6 years. It will take 2 AT A MINIMUM.

Wanna know how you can know how long it takes? When you are looking backwards from a position of being recover-ed, not while you are recover-ing, or attempting to begin recovery.


Yeah, you are giving up the opportunity to continue schtupping other guys, which he thinks you want to do, because you did it.

He's trying to push you away. You can let him do it, if you want to prove to him that you don't want to be there, that it is all an act to get him to drop his guard again.

Or you can stand there firmly and say "I'm in this until the end, mister!"

I wasn't trying to put a timeline on his recovery. He is choosing not to recover and he brought up divorce. Harley told me I should let him choose between working the marriage or divorce this spring.

He wanted me to physically harm the OM, exact details I don't want to go into. For a long time, BH was going to harm the OM. But what stopped him the first time was that he couldn't get supplies. Then when he asked for a divorce he stopped caring.