Basically, my husband agreed to an open marriage (but don't ask don't tell:S). That should have been a warning sign but I take responsibility for all that has happened to our marriage. He decided to ask if I had sex with a mutual friend then everything fell apart. I had sex with a friend once and now my husband considers it cheating.

My husband and I have been married for 3 years, together for a total of 7 years. We have no children. We've moved to 2 different countries together in the last 3 years.

I cut off all contact with the friend as soon as I realized how my husband felt. I don't spend alone time with other men or with guys even in a group.

We decided to work it out. He moved out for a month and came back. We spend all but one night together now (he goes out once a week on D-day).
It has been almost three months since he found out.

We have done the marriage builder Emotional Questionnaire. We have a set discussion night weekly to talk about the relationship. I have been open, honest, and communicating with him. I have not blamed him for this and I take full responsibility for my actions and the damage it has done. I tell him everything he wants to know. Sometimes he thinks we spend too much time apart so now once a month we take a weekend apart.

We of course go through ups and downs such as last week we fought a few times. Or there is distance between us here and there. But both of us agree that overall things are moving along in the right direction. He feels more comfortable around me now. We talk more now, we are able to do things like cuddle on the couch, etc. Obviously things will take time to recover where there is love, trust, affection and such.

What other things can I do to help with the recovery process? I realize this will take time, I read it takes between 2-7 years to recover/heal.

He feels hurt, betrayed, angry and has a broken heart. I feel terrible for what has happened and I am trying all that I can to help heal our marriage.

He doesn't want marriage counseling. I initially had phone counseling since I live overseas. He didn't want to join so I stopped after a few sessions and the counselor was going off-topic.

So what can I do to help with this recovery? How can I help successfully help rebuild this marriage?

Welcome, LL. It sounds like you've been doing a lot of reading here, and that's good. It does take some time to heal the damage inflicted by adultery, but it can be done if both spouses are committed to recovery.

Questions: Your H gave you permission to have sex outside of your M. Why is he so upset that you did? What were the conditions in your M that would lead either of you to consider something so damaging?

Your H says he doesn't want MC. What does he want?

Yes, he said it was fine as long as we didn't discuss it with each other. The conditions was that I had a high sex drive relative to his. He said that it was fine if I sought a man or woman to fulfill my needs if it got me off his back for sex. But I could not let him know and vice versa. Obviously a bad sign as he was giving signs he did not really agree to it. I didn't push the issue only the issue that we were not having enough sex. Sometimes the issue of sex would get him annoyed. It had been like that for 3 years since we got married.

LL, did he have sex with other people, too?

Was the friend you had sex with one of his friends?

When a spouse permits/invites a third party into the M disaster usually results.

Have you talked with your H about the disparity in your SF needs? Have the two of you brainstormed ways to fulfill both of your SF needs? Do you communicate about this at all, other than how to avoid it?

"Basically, my husband agreed to an open marriage (but don't ask don't tell:S). That should have been a warning sign but I take responsibility for all that has happened to our marriage. He decided to ask if I had sex with a mutual friend then everything fell apart."

Whose idea to have an open marriage?

Where you attracted to the F/OM before this subject came up?

Who brought up the subject first?

How long did it take from the agreement was reached did you sleep with this F/OM?

Why did you tell your H, did H ask, did F/OM tell your H first, did you go out/do anything to make H suspect you did the OM?

Why would you want to be married to someone that didn�t care if you had sex with someone else in the first place???

I never hear about opens marriages fixing anything. Only breaking things.

Any way the point I have heard with open marriages is that there are usually rules laid out an agreed to before the games begin.

Also when only one spouse wants to have an open marriage the one that never gets any extra action starts to get very jealous because they ain't getting their fair share of the rewards even when they didn't want any originally.

Being that people don't go around telling every one they know that they have an open marriage they want it kept quiet.

So why would you pick your H's F to be your OM?

LL123: want to be my FBuddy
OM: yes your good looking, but your married
LL123: I need it more then H can give so H says we can have an open marriage
OM: H is not getting the job done
LL123: H say's it ok to get the job done with outside help
or you lied to OM and said what H doesn't know won't hurt H

You have humiliated your H because you have made someone your H knows that he is not satisfying you. Also you can not count on this OM keeping things quiet. Most OM like to bragg. Bragg who he is doing on the side and why.

Whose idea to have an open marriage? My husband had mentioned it before but I didn't do anything up until recently.

Where you attracted to the F/OM before this subject came up? No.

Who brought up the subject first? Husband.

How long did it take from the agreement was reached did you sleep with this F/OM? A few months. He talked about it earlier in the year around spring and in the summer when I complained about the lack of sex.

Why did you tell your H, did H ask, did F/OM tell your H first, did you go out/do anything to make H suspect you did the OM? He asked because we had all been out drinking and OM and I were flirting. I wasn't going to lie to my husband when he asked.


Have you talked with your H about the disparity in your SF needs? Have the two of you brainstormed ways to fulfill both of your SF needs? Do you communicate about this at all, other than how to avoid it? Well we have talked about it now but it's something that is going to repaired later as I earn his trust and love back. Right now sex is not a concern as I want to make this work and heal this relationship. I really don't want to push this too much right now. Plus he thinks if I can show that I won't sleep with another man while his sex drive is even lower than he thinks he can trust me more. I guess it's kind of a test.

We haven't brainstormed much about sex as he feels uncomfortable having sex or the subject. We did talk about what was missing from my end and what I wanted but that's about it.

So far it's just been about being honest, restoring trust and rebuilding the relationship.

I saw that I missed a few questions:

He didn't have sex with anyone that I know of.
Yes, he was a friend of mine and my husband's.

Other man was told that it was an open marriage.

The 2 most important things you can do right now is to a) affair proof your marriage and b) spend 20+ hours a week of undivided attention meeting the top 4 intimate needs of conversation, sexual fulfillment, affection and recreational companionship.

Affair proofing your marriage means creating transparency by sharing cell phone passwords, email accounts, bank accounts, etc. The other spouse should have complete access to every area of your life. Ending all opposite sex friendships and never spending the night apart again.

The UA time will do the most to restore the romantic love in your marriage.

Have you answered all your husbands questions openly and honestly about your affair? Have you both ended contact with this "friend?"

This doesn't excuse him. Adultery is adultery no matter what cute names you apply. He knew you were married and that is what matters. He is no "friend." If my friend was doing something destructive - drunk driving - and I give him the keys becuase he tells me it is OK for him to go drunk driving, I cannot excuse my part in that destructive act. "Friends" don't help friends harm themselves in destructive behavior.

He is not a "friend;: he is an accessory to the crime.

Have you answered all your husbands questions openly and honestly about your affair? Have you both ended contact with this "friend?"

I have answered all the questions he has asked.

We have both ended contact with this guy.

He actually is the one that wants nights apart. So we've been having one night a week out with our friends. As well, he wants weekends apart here and there. So this weekend we are spending it apart.

I answer any and all questions he has for me about what I am doing. He doesn't care about my email, cellphone and such.

We've been having conversation, SF to his level of comfort (don't want to push that unless he's ready or willing), affection and recreational companionship. He's not ready to be seen in public with me so we do things at home 99% of the time. We've only done a few things together out like attend a wedding and meeting a friend for dinner.

We are trying to affair proof by having conversations and trying to meet each others needs based on his level of comfort. We have discussions. But he needs his time and space.

Has your H ever seen a doctor about this? It is not typical to feel uncomfortable having sex, or even talking about it. This concerns me.

Has your H ever seen a doctor about this? It is not typical to feel uncomfortable having sex, or even talking about it. This concerns me.

I think it's not uncomfortable in the physical sense, more of the emotional sense since it had all happened.

does he understand how bad this is for your marriage? Having separate leisure lifestyles is a disaster that leads to affairs and a sense of detachment. That is not the way to an intimate, passionate marriage.


If your goal is to affair proof your marriage, then what you are doing by having time apart will achieve the OPPOSITE. I think it is cute and winsome to desire "space" but that usually is an indication of someone who is in an AFFAIR. I have been here for 10 years and have heard that silly excuse 100's of times. I don't know of any instance where it wasn't an affair. Just think about it, if someone needed "space" why would they have to leave to do it? If someone really wants to work on their marriage, as he says he does, they don't LEAVE, they stay and........work on the marriage.

Let's say your car is broken down in the garage and you want to fix it. Do you drive to Clevevand, Ohio [leaving to get "space"] or do you go in the garage and work on the car?

If I were you, I would hire a Private detective and find out who he is with when he is off in his pursuit of "space." OR..... go drop in and see yourself what he is doing. I ain't buying it.

This guy is having an affair:

1. He actually is the one that wants nights apart.

2. So we've been having one night a week out with our friends.

3. As well, he wants weekends apart here and there. So this weekend we are spending it apart.


4. I answer any and all questions he has for me about what I am doing. He doesn't care about my email, cellphone and such.


5. Doesn't want to have sex with her------------->We haven't brainstormed much about sex as he feels uncomfortable having sex or the subject.


6. He's not ready to be seen in public with me so we do things at home 99% of the time. We've only done a few things together out like attend a wedding and meeting a friend for dinner.


7. But he needs his time and space.


8. Basically, my husband agreed to an open marriage

Oh, gotcha. But his need for SF has never matched yours, correct? To the point where he told you to find another partner?

I actually knows what he is doing as he is spends every weekend with a male mutual friend of ours or his boss. As well, he comes every night after being out. I also have happened to have walked by areas where he has spent the night apart and it has been with male friends. He tells me if there are girls hanging out with him.

Even before this all happened, he always wanted a night apart a week as he thought we spent too much time apart. He wants to rebuild this with things he is comfortable with. We used to only spend 1 night apart every 2 months which was a lot less than he wanted.

The reason he doesn't care about my cellphone or emails is that he thought it through. He thought that I could use friend's cellphones or payphones. I can delete things that I don't want him to see so it's pointless from his point of view.

He says that as things get rebuilt in this relationship we won't be spending weekends apart and he will be more willing to do things with me outside of our home. Right now he wants to work on being able to spend time comfortably with me at home first since that is where we live. For him, he says he still sometime has trouble dealing with this or not picturing me having sex with another person.

LL, things will get rebuilt in your marriage by being TOGETHER, not apart. Being apart is counterproductive to recovering your marriage. I would not agree to this plan to spend time apart because it is bad for your marriage.


How does telling you remove the damage done by having opposite sex friendships? He should be with his wife, not other girls.

I don't think your H is serious about recovering this marriage because his actions don't support his words.

This is not convincing at all. You only know what your husband tells you he is doing.

Please forgive the question, but is it possible that he is doing anything inappropriate with his male friends?

He is not doing anything inappropriate with him that I know of.

For me, I don't believe he is doing anything.

He said he felt like I ripped out his heart and stomped on it:'( He thought that I would never have slept with someone else and that if he never found out about it he would have been happy. It's the case that he's extremely hurt/betrayed. He can't believe the person he trusted the most could/would do something like that.

I should mention that this guy was actually his best friend in the foreign country we are living in. Not his best friend out of all his friends. But this guy was considered his BF until this all happened. So he feels betrayed by both.

As well, I was the one who decided he should have a weekend away as he talked about it but never did. He actually wanted to take a short trip somewhere in the new years. But because we had been fighting a lot last week I thought some time apart now instead of later would be nice.

Did you read my posts about why this is bad for your marriage?

LL,, there could not be a WORSE time for you to be apart. Your marriage needs top attention. NOW. When the house is on fire it is best to stay there and save the house.

Why don't you plan to go somewhere TOGETHER this weekend?

I did read what you said.

But there is not much I can do. I am trying to meet his needs. His top 5 needs were (not in the order he listed): affection, respect, time to himself, honesty/openness and conversation.

LL, spending time alone is not an emotional need! That is ridiculous. One cannot create romance if they are not together so that makes no sense.

Do you know this program does not work if you don't spend 20+ hours per week of undivided attention time together meeting the top 4 intimate needs of affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship. Unless you are spending your leisure time together you can't very well recover your marriage. In this quote he uses the figure of 15 hours, but he adds in other writings that it needs to be 20+ when a couple is recovering from adultery.

And sure, something can be done. Plans can always be changed.

This is not alone:

I will discuss it with him this week on our discussion night. But we've talked about it before and he doesn't want to cancel the one night out a week. He wants time to himself doesn't mean he wants to be alone, he wants time to be away from the relationship to spend time with friends. This is something he wanted before....

I also talked to some of his siblings who I am close to. They said give him his space as that is the type of person he is. But they also said that the time we do spend together should be doing something healthy. We spend 6 nights a week together other than the night out. This week will be 5 nights.

Is having once a week discussion about the relationship enough? We decided there was unlimited time for discussion but that it was set once a week.

This is a very unhealthy, dangerous practice for any marriage. It leads to emotional detachment and often leads to affairs. Your marriage is already suffering from a lack of emotional intimacy, so spending time apart will only add to the problem.

And secondly, if you want to recover your marriage, you should learn to never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of the other.

here

Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


here

What are their professional credentials at saving marriages?

They don't have professional credentials, they are just his siblings. One of them has been married for 20 years in a stable and loving relationship.

Anyhow, I will take to my husband about these things. But at the same time I can't push him to do what he doesn't want to or doesn't feel is comfortable for him. We do spend 10 hours of time together doing things together at home and such (conversation, recreation and affection, sex not as much..only been 1-2x a week). But I guess we'll up the undivided attention by some more. However, he thinks that as a couple you don't need to spend every spare minute together. There should be some agreed time apart.

HUH?? Time spent alone?? This isn't a need, it's a want. And I fail to see where he's getting this 'need' met. Does he go out and sit all by himself in his car once a week to get this 'time spent alone'? No. Actually, you're saying he 'needs' time away from you. Why would he need time away from you?? Isn't being apart what got you into this mess in the first place?? You two need to be together!

And what the heck is this about your H telling you if he's hanging with women?? How can this even be a possibility??

LL, you know what your posts are saying to me? They're saying that neither one of you is really interested in making any effort at all to rebuild your M.

I don't understand. Do you mean that neither of you work and you're together all day and night?

Hopefully, you will help him get over this wrongheaded notion. Spending the nights apart and having separate leisure lives is a disaster for marriage.

Another thing, LL, and I can only speak for my marriage, but: FWH and I are forced to be apart because we work during the day. That's our 'time apart.' We don't like it. We want to be together. Isn't that how it should be?

An emotional need is something that causes you to fall in love with the person who supplies it for you. Time to himself may be some sort of "need," but it is not a Marriage Builders emotional need.

Emotional needs are things you need in order to fall in love, not things you need to stay alive or things you need in order to be "emotionally healthy."

10 hours is not enough. The Marriage Builders plan calls for 15 for a good marriage, 20+ for a rocky marriage.

And none of these figures is even close to "every spare minute together."

Did you know that for years Dr. Harley built a great marriage with his wife while working obsessive hours each week managing his clinic? All it took was the right amount and type of time with his wife each week. It was nowhere near the amount of time he spent working.

Personally, I'd rather spend that time doing something else besides working, but the point is that 15 hours a week still leaves room for a lot of other things.

15 hours a week can still leave you 50 hours a week to do what you want. So this is hardly "every spare moment" together.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_attn.html

Dr. Harley says he has no problem with couples doing some recreational things apart from each other, under the following conditions:

* FIRST, the couple needs to be each other's favorite recreational companions. If they are not, then they should be spending their time becoming each other's favorite recreational companions by following this program.
* The couple must be following the policy of undivided attention (Give each other your undivided attention for 15 hours each week, 20 if the marriage is troubled, meeting the emotional needs of affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment). If the schedule doesn't allow for 15 hours of UA time, then it certainly shouldn't allow for independent recreational activities.
* The independent activities must be subject to the Policy of Joint Agreement: neither one of you will engage in an activity if the spouse is not enthusiastic. For example, she may not like him going to play basketball but may be fine with him playing golf.

But all of this is for AFTER you've built a romantic relationship.

BUT....the separate activity should NOT involve spending the night apart. Her H says his favorite activity is to spend the weekends/nights with his friend or boss, and that sometimes girls join them. [but he tells her when girls join them]

Frankly, I this she is being gaslighted and this is all a ruse to cover up an affair or a swinging single lifestyle.

Right. Those are two other conditions Dr. Harley has stipulated. He doesn't favor nights apart, and he completely opposes spending your recreational time with people of the opposite sex.


Probably. I just want her to be able to respond to the "married couples shouldn't spend every spare moment together" strawman. In addition to my posts, I agree with those who pointed out that in a good marriage, you want to spend your time together.

I'm confused. Her husband has been betrayed (even though it was an open marriage-sigh) because she was with his best friend. Yet the advice here is to not separate. What about Plan AB? or is it different advice here because it's not the BS writing? I'm recently separated ("struggled for years" thread) and beginning to freak that it will further the chance of divorce.

Just another point of agreement: a working person typically has 50 hours left per week after all the stuff they "have to do".

15 of those hours should be spent giving undivided attention to your spouse, MINIMUM. Note the "20+ hours" thing is a forum-ism, not something Dr. Harley is usually quoted as saying. His advice is usually along the lines of 15 hours as a minimum, and those who's marriages are in trouble should be spending "much more". For reference, I work two jobs right now, and I still get this time in with my wife (though not much excess right now).

15 hours of those should be spent with your immediate family all together. This includes meals together and whatever other activities you do with your family as a whole. We eat breakfast together 6 days a week (3 hours/week), dinner together 6 days a week (4 hours/week or so), Family Night weekly (3 hours), and miscellaneous family activities on weekends that usually fill the rest of the time.

This leaves 20 hours a week for "me time" and "alone time". This is PLENTY of time for a devoted family man/woman, but usually NOT QUITE ENOUGH TIME for someone to successfully conduct an affair. Which is kind of the idea

The 20+ figure does come from Dr. Harley; I heard him giving it on an old radio broadcast sometime in the last 24 hours. It's in his writings somewhere, either book or website. I'll keep an eye out for it and try to get you a source when I see it again.

True. I think I usually hear him say "20-25 or even 30" for marriages in trouble.

I'd love it if you'd find the reference! And I'd stand corrected

I know he recommends 15 hours for currently healthy marriages, and "much more" for those in trouble, but I've not yet heard him recommend a specific number as a guideline beyond that outside of a case-by-case basis.

Here it is:

Almost every couple who has been to the MB weekend has heard him recommend 20-30+ hours per week to jumpstart it. He mentions this in several places. The quote above and also here, pg 85 Effective Marriage Counseling:

The number of hours a couple schedules together each week for undivided attention should reflect the quality of their marriage. If the marriage is satisfying to both spouses, they should schedule fifteen hours each week to be together. But if they suffer marital dis-satisfaction, they should plan more time until marital satisfaction is achieved.

I knew "dissatisfaction" was in it. I've been Googling all over this site for "dissatisfaction" and "hours" together.

Still looking for "twenty," though...

Why??? The quote I posted says 25-30, that is 20+!!

Okay so what I meant by 10 hours is the 10 hours of undivided attention. Otherwise we spend the rest of our waking non-working hours with each other. We have breakfast and dinner together. We spend like 6 hours a day away from each other because of work. (5 days a week)

We spend 2-3 hours in the morning together and then 4-6 hours at night. But whether we spend time doing something together is different. He spends a lot of time playing first person shooters or XBOX since we took a break from online gaming.


I'm putting in as much effort as I can on my part but can';t push him to do everything that has been said on the site or from the forums. As well, it seems like he likes to throw it in my face that I had sex with someone else every opportunity he gets:S I'm just a little frustrated at the moment.

LL123, the numbers that are being given to you are weekly figures. I'm a bit confused from the numbers you posted: how many hours do you spend together each day, and what are you doing during that time?

I agree you can't (and shouldn't) push your husband to do what is said on this site. However, you can persuade him of the value of recovery using this program.

So in an average work day we spend 6-8 waking hours together. On the weekends we spend about 30 waking hours together. During the time we spend together, we eat, have conversations about various things, watch downloaded movies/shows, play online games and do home workouts.

So you are saying that on average, you spend 65 hours a WEEK with your H?

Watching movies don't count towards UA. Online games, are they played together?

Are you meeting all four most intimate ENs? Tell us how.

So you are saying that on average, you spend 65 hours a WEEK with your H?
It depends on the week, on the low end we spend 52 hours together. On the high end, we spend up to 60 hours.
Watching movies don't count towards UA. Online games, are they played together? We play the online games together. I thought movies counted as RC. I had looked at MB's site where there was a RC list.

Are you meeting all four most intimate ENs? Tell us how.
For affection, we mostly cuddle during movies or while we hang out on the couch together.
For SF, we have sex just not often at the moment. This is something we are working on but will take time.
For RC,we do things as I listed in the previous post.
We have a few conversations every day about different topics from our day, to how we are doing, to life, etc.

DrH has said that movies don't count towards UA. I wish I could find that quote.

How were you able to have sex with another man and keep it from your H?

I found it. I still am learning how to search for things on here and actually come up with SOMETHING.


It can be found HERE

How were you able to have sex with another man and keep it from your H?
It was only kept for a week. I just didn't tell him because of the whole don't ask, don't tell. (obviously bad idea).

I'm just trying to work on the present. Obviously I made a mistake, and we had communication issues and expression of our feelings.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always understand UA time as time spent with your main focus on the other spouse. Like, if you're downstairs on the phone and he's upstairs playing a video game, that's not UA time. UA time isn't just being in the same house together. Going to a football game isn't UA time - your attention is focused on the game, not each other, KWIM?

I understand what you mean Martialbliss. We had our weekly discussion yesterday and we both followed the policy of negotiation. So we had a civil talk without things getting too emotional.
However, he says that certain activities just aren't doable at the moment for us because he has a hard time dealing with all of this still. He says he realized I am making a good effort and he is as well but that it's just going to take time (understandable). I guess each marriage is different... and people handle things differently. He says he wants to work things out but is still confused/hurt/sad over all of this. I guess wait and see and keep putting in the effort on both of our parts.

What I was trying to get at is HOW did you have an AFFAIR with you spending so much UA time together? How was it POSSIBLE to keep it a secret? Your BH should have known where you were.

Also, I don't really understand what you are here for? By that I mean, why are you on THIS forum? You seem to want to either argue with other posters and tell them how right YOU are, or you are explaining how you can't do things the way that it is set out. What do you want from this board?

If what you want is to learn how to use MB to save your marriage after YOUR AFFAIR, we can help you with that. If you want a place where you can journal, let us know. It's not wrong, we will just stop discussing your life in MB terms.

BUT........the steps for recovery are not different. And without a plan to recover, your marriage won't recover. No plan is a plan for failure. Here is how Dr Harley describes his plan for recovery:

here

What I was trying to get at is HOW did you have an AFFAIR with you spending so much UA time together? How was it POSSIBLE to keep it a secret? Your BH should have known where you were.
The thing is I work at a private school. So does the OM. We had breaks and would meet up for food and such. BH actually knew about it, I never hid the fact we had gone for lunch/dinner on breaks. We all have known each other for 1.5 years. (As a side note, there has been no contact after D-day with OM, just run ins as we live in a small city. No words were exchanged, I would just leave immediately). BS knows about any sightings I have had (total of 3-4x in the past 3 months)The OM doesn't work at my school but another one a block away.

Sorry would've responded sooner but our anniversary was approaching and passed and i felt kind of depressed about it.

What do you want from this board? I am not trying to show how right I am, just voicing my situation. I just want advice on how to handle it with the circumstances and how willing BS is willing to follow them. As well as getting advice on what to do when the BS doesn't want to follow the prescription of Dr. Harley and posters here. I am really not trying to argue but I realize that posting on forums you cannot hear the tone of voice or properly explain yourself. I have nothing against the advice that has been given to me, just giving information about his feelings, his family and what he is/isn't comfortable with. I am doing as much as I can from my end, but I can't force him to do something he doesn't want. He is willing to listen and consider things though.

So we are working on not love busting and policy of joint agreement. We are doing fine being open and honest, negotiations (we've been pleasant about it unlike earlier). We're spending time together doing things we both enjoy. The only problem is the not spending nights apart. I've brought it up a few times, he's been firm that he should have his time and space.

I realize that MB has a guideline on how things should be done to have a high success rate. I have talked to my husband about these things but there is nothing I can do when I have brought up the topic several times about not spending any time apart aside from work. I obviously don't want to push the issue with him if it makes him angry or if it makes him feel like I am rushing his recovery. We have been spending more time together lately and have done a few things together outside of our home which is a step forward.

He's been happier recently and more motivated. Well happier but not happy. Not sure how to explain it. Anyhow, he was in the process of working on his degree when things fell apart. Now 3 months later, he's been putting in effort and I am helping him with anything he needs like discussing his assignments together or looking over them. For 3 months, he didn't crack a book open nor did I pressure him.

I just want to know if it is normal for the BS to be confused about what he/she wants. And how do I help him when he won't share all of his feelings? Sometimes he just clams up and doesn't feel that he can trust me, other times he'll open up.

Right now he is not sure if he wants to work things out or not. He says things like if I didn't think we would have a healthy relationship again. So some comments he makes are on a positive note. On a social networking site he just listed me as a friend and another mutual friend as close friend. I asked him why it was that way and if his feelings would change about our relationship and friendship as we used to be each others best friend. He said he would've gotten a divorce if he didn't feel that it would change (that we would be close again). He told me I could be a 10 in his eyes again in the future but right now I am not. Personality is a huge factor for him. But then he goes to say that he is confused, he doesn't know what he wants. But in the same conversation, we were discussing with a our future plans for the next 10 years such as our moving plans (We are ESL teachers). So I am confused and so is he? Is this normal? Should I expect these things? Are they bad signs/good signs?

I do apologize if I have come off as argumentative. That is not my intention. As well, please realize I am doing the best I can. I am trying to let BS know about all this information. He is willing to listen but he disagrees with some of Dr. Harley's advice. I guess it's better than him not listening but I wish he would be more open to the advice I've read.

Also, I am not looking for sympathy. I just want to help my husband through this the best I can in a healthy manner
Sorry this is long...just been a while.

I am in desperate need of advice. My husband and I cannot afford the counseling that Hurley offers. We have been following his 15 hours of UA, being open and honest, POJA, making changes to our marriage that led to me having an affair. As well, we live in a foreign country where we don't speak the language.

But last night he said he didn't think this was going to work out, that he couldn't give me all the love, affection and attention I wanted. That he just didn't care. Does that mean it's over?

I feel like he is pushing me away which he used to in the first few years of our relationship where he would shut down for a day and try to push me away and get me to leave him. For example, one time when I was in school and he was barely making enough for us to live on, he planned a big move and told me he didn't think long distance would work. But all that stopped years ago.

Now I feel like it's back and he's shutting down emotionally. Or is this a normal reaction? He is telling me he cares for me a lot. But he just doesn't feel like he can put the time, effort that I want. Should I continue with Plan A ( I have to admit we had a bad last week as my PMS symptoms have simply made me more sensitive over the last 2 years which may have contributed to it as well...)
Any hope? Any advice from WW and their experiences?

Or have I just lost the best thing that happened to me by being selfish, stupid, inconsiderate....

I'm confused, and I think there is more to the story than we're hearing. Please update us on what's been going on.

In November, you told us your H was spending every 'd-day night' and every weekend with friends. Is that still happening?

In December, you said you were spending adequate amounts of UA time together. Doing what, exactly?

Can you give us examples of how you used POJA to strengthen your M?

And this confuses me. You said:

And then you said:

And now you say:

You guys have been married for three years, right?

I'm trying to figure out if there was ever a point where the two of you actually considered yourself in love?

Would your BH consider coming here? If not to post, at least to read Dr. Harley's concepts?

Have you considered emailing Dr. H. about the possibility of talking to him during one of his radio broadcasts? This is free.

Have you purchased any of the books on this site? Consider His Needs, Her Needs and Surviving an Affair. Click on the 'Bookstore' link.

It's not at all unusual for him to still be hurt and upset. If you could get him here we might be able to help him.

Sorry for the first few years he would be okay and then have a moment where he pushed me away...it lasted for an hour or up to a day and occured every few months. Halfway through the relationship he stopped doing that.

We haven't been spending D-day night apart in Dec after the first week.

For example, I have been wanting to do more things outside of the apartment so we picked a few things that we do that we both enjoy such as skiing (he will be my instructor), going for walks when it gets warmer and getting food together.

He won't come here and I haven't ordered the book. He won't even read the website. But he will let me summarize it for him.

My PMS symptoms make me moody so I get sensitive about things and start crying ...don't think that is helping any.

I still love him but I don't think he loves me anymore right now. His pushing me away he explained was because he was scared of getting close to someone (rightfully so since I hurt him in the worse way possible).

He does little things for me that shows he cares such as making me meals, cuddling me when I feel like crap, etc.

He isn't completely shut down but on his way...I want to help.

Anyhow, I am sending him an email in hopes to reach out to him so he can see it in front of him. We did so much talking last night...

Sorry if I am incoherent, didn't sleep well last night.

Except for the food, this is all stuff you're talking about doing in the future. What have you been doing for the past month?

And can you explain how you use POJA?

Why have you not seen your doctor about your PMS?

This is very good!

The country I am in doesn't take PMS seriously. I am on the pill and generally they think only girls who sleep around a lot take it:S

Past month we've been going out for food, movies and shopping.

When we have an issue we discuss it and try to come up with a solution where we are both satisfied. I was not happy about not doing things outside of the apartment and he was fine. So we came up with activities that would be be good for both us to start with. When we are unhappy about something we talk about it and consider the different solutions...it does take us days to finalize a solution though. Right now there is the whole moving thing and it's going to be a week before we finalize that.

So what do I do now...

He has told me he doesn't want to work it out but is sticking around here. That he might spend another year in this relationship if I take another contract. But he is telling me he can't make himself care, he doesn't want to put in time and effort...He just can't do it. He doesn't see it working out and the affair is no longer a problem...

Desperately need advice.

He said will thinking about couseling, think about giving this relationship another year

What do you do when the other person refuses to try, to put in effort, to give it a chance.

So what do I do now...

He has told me he doesn't want to work it out but is sticking around here. That he might spend another year in this relationship if I take another contract. But he is telling me he can't make himself care, he doesn't want to put in time and effort...He just can't do it. He doesn't see it working out and the affair is no longer a problem...

We've been married 3 years and together 7 years. It's been 4 months since D-day. But when things get tough the idea of divorce is thrown in my face. I've been reading Harley's books recently, just found that I could get e-books from Amazon. But he doesn't want to read them.

is it over?:(

Sometimes even if people want to feel something they just don't. All you can do is work on yourself and hope that he changes his feelings. I do think you have put in the effort, but the effects of cheating are never fortellable. Good luck.

I thought we could work this out but he slowly just gave up the last little bit.

I even suggested we get Harley's coaching which we could for a few sessions as I am working extra hours. But he said there is no point to it if he makes us a program and he refuses to follow it.

This week we are planning more activities like playing crib and other card games where we can have more conversation and time to do fun things together.

he says he's willing to put in as much effort as he does with friendship because right now I am just a good friend to him not a lover. Any advice? I am getting desperate here and know that it's my fault. I gave him a reason to give up.

In all the years we've been together, he goes through stages where he wants to give up the relationship but turns around in a couple of days. This isn't one of them He's been like this all week.

He says he cares, but not in the same way. We haven't really had much affection at all, he was never affectionate and feels like he practices it like Harley says it's just fake and not real.

What to do? My heart is breaking again...it broke when I realized the damage I had done and now that hope is lost it's happening again:(

LL - I'm glad you've found MB. This place can help you - can provide a plan. It isn't over, the fat lady ain't even warming up her pipes yet.

I suggest you hit notify, on your post, and request this be moved to the Surviving an Affair forum. Then read through your Harley book - pay attention to Surviving an Affair.

Some preliminary questions:

Who was the Other Woman (OW)?
How did they meet?
Has the affair ended?
Do your H and the OW still contact one another?
Was she married?
If so does her spouse/ significant other know?
How long was the affair?
Was it emotional?
Was it physical?
Do you have children?

I'm sorry - the affair IS a problem. 3 months is no where near long enough

Now some more questions for you to ponder, you don't have to answer these just now.

What do you want?
What does success look like to you?
If you want to stay in this marriage, why?
What are you willing to do to reclaim this marriage?
Recovery will take about 2 years - do you think you are willing to work at it for that long if you've only been married 3?


((((LL))))

^ That's a Hug.

People will be by to help. It may be tomorrow morning, the board is kind of slow right now.

We can help you. Read all you can here.

Here is a good place to start.

Vibrissa
What do you want? I want this relationship to work.
What does success look like to you? Where we are both fulfilling each other's needs and we are both happy.
If you want to stay in this marriage, why? I love this man and want to have new experiences with him, raise a family.
What are you willing to do to reclaim this marriage? Reading books, trying Harley's coaching alone to have a program created, asked him today what things he wants me to do that will make him happy. He said it probably won't help the relationship but it will make him happy. So I am hoping that will make deposits. He said give him his space, to not bombard him with talks, quizzes and lists all the time and to not make him do things he doesn't want to such as the counseling. What do you guys think about this?
Recovery will take about 2 years - do you think you are willing to work at it for that long if you've only been married 3? I am willing to do it but is he....

Can a marriage be saved when the other person is unwilling? When the other person has checked out the marriage or says it is like winning the lottery that we work it out...not because of anything I have done but because he is done with it and doesn't want to deal with a relationship.

I am really thinking of doing a few session of Harley on my own but seems like a waste of money on my own. I was thinking if I just don't love bust, and follow the things that will make him happy. He didn't say it would help teh relationship but that it would make him happy if I gave him space, not push him, not make him make lists, fill out forms constantly and talk about it and that I don't make him do anything he is not comfortable with such as going to Dr. Harley....

He tells me he can't give me what I want, his love and affection... I love busted by pushing him too much i think with all the talks about the relationship so much. It got pushed in his face too much and I think maybe I have lost him....he told me it would be good if I would just let go.

Sorry I guess I do have a thread over there and thought it should be moved here. And I was the one who had the affair:(

LL, I asked you this and didn't get a response:
What have the two of you been doing to get 25-30 hours of UA time in each week?

What have the two of you been doing to get 25-30 hours of UA time in each week?
We have conversations, lots of them such as world events, interests, our day, silly questions like what would you do if.... and discuss things daily, play card games weekly, SF 1-2x a week, cuddles rarely, cooking together, sometimes getting food together (only happened recently). I think we spend most of our time together at home though. Recently started going shopping together, not a frequent occurrence. Short walks and working out together at home. We usually do short workouts that range from 10-20min 4-5x a week.

We also spend some of that time discussing our relationship which I think has been making it worse:(

Would the online program that Harley offers be worth doing or better to try coaching?

I'm sorry, I might have missed this - have the two of you filled out the EN Questionnaire?

Yea we did that a month or so ago. He wanted me to be honest, open, respectful, time and his space as he put it, conversation.

But he's stopped caring, he is pretty much dead set on divorce telling me that it working out is the same as winning the lotto. That he's only putting in as much effort as he puts into this relationship as his other friendships. That I am just a friend....

He says he cares about me but only as a friend. That the chances of him falling in love with me again is so slim.

He said no more forms, lists, talks, he wants his space and he doesn't want me to ask him to do things he doesn't want to.

He says he is only here as he likes the country we are in and cannot afford to live on his own. I am the full time worker and he is a student/ PT working.

We still share the same bed and have sex sometimes. He spends most of his waking hours with me aside from work and school.

He thinks I read too much into things when I get him to get stuff from the store, or the odd time he initiates cuddling or when he is excited to be talking to me about something interesting that happens to him.

He basically has checked out I think:(

I want to try coaching or the online program but I think it takes two?

I wondered about that. It seems like everytime I asked you about UA time, your response involved talking. There are a lot of guys who don't have the need for all that talking. Especially relationship talk!

What physical things does he like to do? Bowling? Shopping? Antique-hunting? Let's figure that out first.

I don't want to be mean, here, LL, but it sounds to me like your heart is in the right place and you just can't figure out how to get your butt in gear to make it happen.

I am just sitting at home crying my eyes out. Going to meet a friend for a short time to get some air and do something that doesn't make me think about this for a short time.

I guess he doesn't mind things like bowling, playing pool but he likes playing against someone good and I'm not:S, a challenge I guess. Other things are watching movies, skiing. He's not a sports person or anything. So working out is the most physical thing we do. He prefer mental things for the most part which is why the card games and such.

I am just upset because he told me wants a divorce when we go back to our home country for a few weeks (this trip is happening in 4 months). He doesn't see it working out but he might consider staying with me another year if I continue this contract. If he divorces me I am not staying here (not as a threat but I would want to be around my friends and family). He has been so set that we will fail this week and there is no love and there never will be....

It breaks my heart.

I am assuming he knows about the affair? Well, you must stop contact with that individual and start focusing on your marriage. Good place to star! Once that is done I would try to understand your husband�s needs and really roll up your sleeves and start working on making him desire you again, which is going to take time. You have betrayed his trust and love, I would think he feels pretty hurt right now, so I can�t blame him for not wanting to try. I am sure you had your reasons for having the affair, but that is a big no no in a marriage and in the future you should find ways to communicate to your hubby what needs you have and how he can meet them effectively. Good luck!

LL, please stay on your original thread. It makes it easier for the posters to follow your story.

He knows. He knew a week after it happened. I have not contacted that person since a day after d-day. Total no contact was 1 week after that when he sent me a message and I had a friend tell him to never contact again.

We did the EN questionnaire over a month ago. He wanted honesty/openeness, space/time, conversation, respect. He knows what my needs are and said affection just isn't going to happen. He never was comfortable with a whole lot of affection but he gave me some before but now he doesn't want to give any as he cares even less about the relationship than before.

I mean he asked for a divorce, is telling me there is no hope for us and he doesn't want to try. He did want to try even a month ago, maybe not 100% but now it's nothing. He just says we are good friends and that he cares about me in a friend manner.

How to save a marriage when the other person wants it to be doomed...

I hit the notify...hoping they will delete this one soon.

I don't think it is definitely over. I think at least you can show him your commitment if you two are still around each other. Try and find something that interests you both and make a point of doing it regularly together. Part of my problem was my H had very different interests from me and I resented him when he'd do them because I was so unhappy with myself for my own personal reasons. I took it out on him and made him unhappy and made it hard for him to do his things. I am trying to take interest now but it may be too late because he may not let me. You should find something your H likes and get into it with him.

Also, couples time that doesn't focus on the "problem" could be good.

Good luck. Keep posting!

Thank you everyone for any advice you have. I guess i feel like I have hit rock bottom.

I went and even bought a chess board to attempt to try a new game. I never played chess but know that my husband has played it, maybe not the best but that we could play together and challenge each other mentally.

The thing he used to love about me was my personality. But he feels like he doesn;t know me or can trust me or be open with me. He just says I am friend:( I really hope that will change. That it is not too late.

Tonight he told me is willing to stay married for one more year even though he doesn't see me as his wife:( He said that he told a close friend that he doesn't think it will work but that I am still trying (not we are still trying:(

I want some hope but I don't know anymore:( What if there is nothing I can do? I have been reading other threads and such but don't feel confident anymore:S

I am so sorry that your husband is not willing to stay married and work on it, it sounds like your husband made a decision and I doubt waiting a year will fix things, I'm just worried that he'll have an revenge A and make things more worse!

My mother in law said this to me after I apologized to her when I had cheated on her son.

"You can always choose your actions, but you can never choose the consequences."

Good luck.

LL, this is still pretty early in recovery. Take it slow. And let him take it slow. Of course he didn't say "we" - he's feeling pretty disconnected from you at the moment.

Just do the best you can do for today. Don't worry about tomorrow or next year. Those days will come soon enough. Today is what you need to deal with. Just be the best wife you can be today.

Thank you for all the support and information and insight.

I am trying to take it one day at a time but sometimes I fear the worst.

I am just scared as I have said before. He says he wants a divorce and he's telling his friend that he doesn't see it working out (which I worry will be a self fulling prophecy) He told his friend we were getting a divorce....that can't be a good sign...he's stepped out and away from me emotionally:(

I just set an appointment request with Harley although I can only afford 2 sessions.

Stop looking at this in a negative way. He hasn't filed for D, right? He hasn't moved out, right? He's engaging with you, right?

Of course he's stepped away from you emotionally. That's normal for a betrayed spouse.

Thanks for the positive light on things.

He hasn't filed it, but was thinking about doing it when we went back home for a couple of weeks. I managed to get to say he'll hold off for another year and see, at least give me a fair chance at trying. He hasn't moved out physically. He does spend a lot of time with me at home and is willing to watch things with me and play cards games and such.

Sorry I don't know what is normal and what's not. I just didn't expect him to ask for a divorce and set a time.

You cannot control him, LL. All you can do is control yourself. Keep doing what you've been doing. If he still decides he must go, you'll know you've done your best.

FWIW, I don't think he means it. I just think he's hurting.

I know I can't control him. I have read the 7 habits of highly effective people. You can only hope that through yourself you can have an influence on others as you can't control their thoughts or feelings but you can influence them.

Thanks again for the words of encouragement, I really need it in this time.

Be genuine, loving, and caring toward him (hopefully that means to just be yourself.) He may say many negative things when he is feeling low, so just expect that. Hang in there!

That's what I have been trying to do. To be considerate, to have pleasant conversations to not start fights. I sometimes cuddle him in the mornings even though he doesn't return it...which is fine. I try not to be overly affectionate as he never really cared for it much. I make him breakfast if I get up before him, etc.

It just is difficult because it feels like he has checked out of the relationship completely.

However, he said maybe if I could find a counselor we could go to one here if I could find an English speaking one. I would much prefer Harley but he doesn't want phone, etc. So I've been trying to find a good one that will try and help us fall back in love and get him to open up...Any thoughts on this?

How do I contact Dr. Harley to see if they will answer my question on the radio or something?

Sorry this is the place I come to journal as well.

It was a little awkward yesterday morning for me. My husband gave me some affection and it ended up leading to sex. He initiated all of it as I haven't been (I don't want to feel pushy). I only sleep close to him or against him. This was the second time we've had sex this week since talk of divorce. But this time, part ways through he stopped after he looked at me. It was awkward and I felt rejected. But I didn't want to pry as he thinks we're still headed for divorce. Is this normal?

I have been quite pleasant towards him and he's been to me as well. We did different activities this weekend like playing cards, he helped me hang up my paper cranes (I am trying to make 1000 cranes).

Also, we talked about counseling. He was willing to give it a try even though he isn't a big fan of them in general. We were going to go in the next week or two. In the end, we are putting it off for 1-4 months as he thinks it's a waste of time and money right now when only one of us is trying. (reading too much or maybe he thinks there is a small chance of change?) He still thinks we're headed for a divorce, but I have 16 months before that should happen. Also, before he had mentioned he doesn't like being pushed into things he doesn't want to do so I thought if he was willing to give it a try in the future it was better than nothing.

Right now I am trying not to love bust. I am showing him that I care through small actions, humor, conversations and helping him with his studies. I am also giving his space and not pushing him about this relationship and making him talk about negative things (ie relationship). He says talking about it makes him unhappy and that he is unhappy in this relationship.

Any advice? Sorry for all the posts, I just kind of feel alone in the relationship at times and being in a foreign country...

You and H did not really HAVE an open marriage.
It was your H's big fantasy that he thought would never happen.
Basically, he played a game of chicken with you, and you BOTH lost.

Anywho ....
Here is a *** LINK *** to my favorite post by Star*Fish on the topic.

Tell me what you think after you read it.

Based on this


I think you're doing OK.

HANG IN THERE.

Hi Pepperband,

I think you were right about the game of chicken. As well, I just read the link. I think it was destructive not only to our relationship, him but myself. I realize even it was truly open, I was in a fog just like other affairs. I was in that fog till the minute that BH found out and was lucky to be out of it that second.

I am not saying my actions were okay regardless of how our relationship was before. But obviously something was not perfect with the relationship and myself that led to this open arrangement occuring, I broke the relationship and now suffer the consequences. To have believed I could have maintained a sex partner without emotions was a bad idea. As BH said after, our relationship started purely on sex and simple friendship.

I feel after this mess some days my self worth is quite low but I am working on it. If I can't look myself in the mirror every day and feel good about myself, why would BH want to be with me...

I just keep telling myself it will okay and keep going at it...never give up when there is an ounce of hope. That hope is that he is still here and there is something I can do...

I am sorry but I today I am all out of hope. i am hysterial crying at home...I left my husband at the singing room. He told me we made excellent progress as friends but as wife/ or companion nothing. That it was not my fault...that it was because he was never really ready for a relationship he never wants to marry again or have anything serious. During the 16 months I thought we could repair he wouldn't do anything to hurt me because he would rather hurt himself than me. But he doesn't love me, he doesn't want to be commited, he wants to be alone and I gave him that excuse he wanted...how he felt all along and I don't know what to do...I tried..I did everything I could and he doesn't love me, he doesn't want me..
I totally failed and feel terrible...
I mean what do I do when the other person doesn't desire anyone or a relationship of any sorts with anyone...

I just feel terrible because it is 4am I am sitting at home crying my eyes out after what i though was a hopeful week...

LL,
Sorry for your pain. I would think you should take what he can give and right now he can only give you friendship. Things may change over time - nothing is cast in stone - remain his friend - try to be his best friend and over time who knows.

You didn't totally fail - he's accepting you as friend and since you are the wayward - that is much to be thankful for.

Gg

LL, trust me, I know it's hard. You want your H back, you see the glimmers of hope and it builds up these expectations within you. You can't place any expectations on your H - none. I kept doing that in recovery, time and time again and each time I'd build myself up and crash back down to earth. Those expectations and my Taker jumping out in frustration at recovery not happening fast enough (as if I have any right to dictate the speed of R for my BH) did more harm than good to our recovery.

You are very early in recovery. You're not failing, but it takes time for your H to see the changes in you, to believe they are genuine. Accept what he can give you right now. Like I said, I know it's hard! Some days - lately for me, every day - hurts like he77 but so far I have managed to keep going. So do you.

My H has moved out and right now has every intention of divorcing me. But hope is the one thing I cling to. It's the only thing I have. Some days it is no more than a tiny spark. I can't bear to listen to well-meaning folks who try to stomp that little spark out. Don't give up hope. If he's still there, in some form or fashion, you can still have hope.

I am curious - are you nihonjin?

I am not nihonjin.

Thanks for the hope. I am trying my best. It is a little difficult at times.

It's just that my husband has had lots of commitment problems in the past in our relationship where he mention us breaking up or that he would have to end the relationship (moving for a job, taking time for travel and because of these plans he was thinking about we would break up). These plans never panned out.

So what he is telling me that it's not about me. It's the fact he just never wants to be in a relationship again, be married, etc. That he felt this way for a long time but didn't want to hurt me. That he wants to live the rest of his life alone. He says he is not angry at me. He says that we've made friendship progress and yes I shouldn't have made expectations knowing the situation. I shouldn't have expected things to change in a week. My expectations gave me the painful blow not him...

Thank you for the recent posts. I am trying to take all teh advice and follow plan a the best I can. i think I did a good job following it until last night when we out with friends. Friends kept watching us, observing us. Friends kept asking me if I was okay. He was telling everyone who asked that we were getting a divorce in the future....So that didn't help me.

I will just follow plan a and see where it takes me. And prepare for the worst as well...

So I think I've made progress even though it is friendship. H has been more positive towards me and kind, etc. He still tells me we are just friends and nothing more. That we have separated but not legally.

We still do things like share a bed, have showers together. Eat breakfast and dinner together.

However, we had a talk yesterday and today. We said neither one of us would have a one night stand or get a bf/gf regardless of him withdrawing and not thinking this is a marriage anymore. I think he still cares because he tried to tell me he doesn't care if I have one night stands at this point, he just doesn't want to know about it( which is exactly what he said before this whole affair thing...so I know deep down somewhere he does care).
I made it clear to him that neither one of us would do such a thing and that it wasn't going to be like we turn back on our words and just keep it from one another (even though I have shown him otherwise in the past by having an affair). He agreed and seemed fine that we would not have sexual or emotional relationship with anyone else as long as we were living together and still legally married.

I tried to get him to see a marriage counselor but he doesn't think it's useful if he doesn't want to try, make this work or cares about it, he wants to see it fail right now...he said he refuses to be open to my efforts of making this work. But I am hoping in time he will change when he sees that we can have a healthy relationship again where I don't hurt him, and he can feel secured and loved.

Even though he says all of that stuff, I asked him if he was okay knowing that we would delay signing/filing divorce papers until 2012 he told me it would depend how our relationship by then... so maybe positive sign...somewhere there is that small glimmer of hope...

So I am trying to stay positive and be hopeful....

Thanks for the replies and advice/tips/help that have been given to me in this situation. I realize that as a wayward I have the one who has done wrong to the person I claimed to have loved the most...that I am lucky that he still around despite what he says and feels right now and for the past bit.

I just feel lost sometimes being in a country without my close friends and family ....

I just have to maintain these changes and show him it's not short term. I am trying to remain positive, as long as he is around me and living with me...there is something I can do and not all hope is lost especially when the papers have not been filed ...I won't let him push me away.

He just told me he resents me and can never trust me again. He won't go to marriage counseling he got angry about it and said that we are not a couple.

He said it can't work...do I just give up?

He is not open to me and hasn't been...he said he had been thinking about divorce for a while...

Honestly, I think I have lost him forever:( I broke him and our marriage.

Not so fast there, girlie. I may have missed it if someone else brought it up, but Dear Husband is sounding AWWWFFULLLY wayward to me. Have you considered the possibility that he is having an affair? Because even if you hadn't had the affair, a husband acting like that would put me on a LEVEL 10 RED ALERT for having his own affair.

He said that I can't change the past and the hurt/anger/resentment...

He says he sees me trying, that I have matured and learned from my mistakes. But he says he is angry, resents me and doesn't want to give a second chance to break him again.

I have doing so much but he won't give mea second chance. I know everyone said that I should be happy for friendship but I'm not. I broke it. It's unfortunate I found all this great marriage resources but he says it's great and too bad we couldn't have found it sooner. That the affair just was the straw the broke the camel's back. He won't let me in...what to do?

If I do the Harley coaching do you think it will be helpful when he shut me out? I jsut don't want to spend nearly 200 when I am strapped on cash but if it can provide me something to work with...

What do I do? I feel desperate and lost...

if you love something let it go, if it comes then it was meant to be...


We talked more...he doesn't want to work it out and says he is over me. Or at least he shall find out if he is really over me.

He says with time there will be forgiveness to move past this but without me. That the resentment and anger will fade. He said what made him feel secure was the fact he was the only man I had been with and now that was gone and could never be replaced.

I feel so stupid.

Now all I can hope for is he will come back to me after time...

LL, instead of focusing on how to change your BHs mind, why don't you work on yourself.

Honestly, if your BH had come here, telling us your story, we would be telling him that he should think about a D. That is because you two have not been married long, and from what I remember, you don't have children together. Also, with the attitude that you have right now where you MUST change HIS mind shows that you just don't get it yet.

See, you hurt him. I know that you think you get it, but you really can't. He is bleeding because you tore off his leg, and you are asking him to get up and walk. He CAN'T right now. So, where does that leave you? Stop feeling sorry for yourself that YOU ruined your marriage and work on YOU. YOU need to become a better person if you are ever going to be happy again. Even if THIS marriage ends, you can use what you have learned here and have a new happy one. Being here isn;t a waste of time or energy UNLESS you don't actually change.

You need to do the work. Clean up your side of the fence and stop trying to get your BH to join you.

I know I shouldn't expect anything. Just changing things not love busting, trying to fill up love bank but he he has walls up which I understand. I am trying to change myself but I don't know if that is enough. Being a independent not needy person. Being strong, working on my self esteem, etc....

He even said that if he happens to meet another woman who he could long term potential he would go for it....which is why I am scared.

I really want to save this despite what horrible thing I did...

LL123,

I agree with Scotland, it's time to step back and let your husband heal a little, he is in shock and doesn't know what he believes anymore, you have destroyed his belief and trust systems he has lived by.
Right now I would just try to Plan A him, look good, smell good, no love busters and be understanding and compassionate about his feelings..
Even if he moves out you can still get back together. You need to show him that you have changed and that you are worth giving another chance, that might not happen right away........it takes a lot of time to heal from this kind of betrayal.

If he is not responding to you in conversations then do little things for him that he will notice, ever so small.........you will slowly turn that hurt he feels into hope of a new person...........you...........
Patience and strength right now, remember in any marriage sometimes one person has to take the reins and be the strongest for a while even though you are alone fixing things............one person can turn things around, have you read the Love Dare yet, or 5 languages of Love............
Remember that he isn't the one that was out of love you were.........he still loves you, he is afraid of being hurt again, a second blow is what all of us fear......

So even though he talks about seeing in the far future moving on with someone else in the future that I should give him some space. He said he doesn't want to deal with the anger, betrayal, lack of trust, and having to be in a relationship, adapting to being a relationship sometime in the future. He is not seeing anyone now...but he did say if he met someone with long term potential he would go for it (but no flings). He is not actively seeking anyone. After this divorce talk, he has been having nights apart again. That worries me but again what right do I have after what I did...

So give him some space and time to heal. Back off. Be patient and strong. Maybe try and get my hands on those books. Plan A the best I can. And hope that he turns it around?

I know I will never understand his pain and thoughts and feelings. That I totally ripped his heart out, stomped on it and sent it down a garbage disposal. I just wish he wouldn't want a divorce...but I guess I will just hope that in time my changes will him that I am trying, they are true and that I can be trusted and someone he wants to be with...

If you truly turn yourself around and treat him with respect and honesty and you must show remorse for your actions and never blame him for any part of it, You must be compassionate and understanding with his feelings..
When I found out about my husband's affair, I took a strong stance but loving, I set him free and when I did that he was forced to self reflect instead of blame me for his affair, I think without me pressuring him and me showing him that I was accountable for my part in the marriage breakdown and me showing him that I loved him and if that meant being with someone else I would let him go.......
Our sit are different but I think the freedom in a loving way is what your husband has to self reflect about, he is mad right now so I wouldn't take to much of what he says to heart..........I felt the same way, it took probably 4 months or so for us to decide if we would try again, for him because of the OW and me because of the betrayal and the fear of being hurt again.........
It really takes patience, look at the big picture, the future together and don't get hung up on today and the words spoken during this trying time........
every person is different and he is still probably at the stage where he is still trying to hurt you a little for what you did, don't take it personally, there will be a lot of rejection..............but you can do, you have to be the stronger one right now............
hang in there, show him the woman you can be ........the life that is worth having.

He can't see that far ahead. I doubt if he can see 15 minutes from now.

You can't wall him in with your expectations; he has every right and reason to leave you and file for D. You gave him that reason. Staying close to those who hurt us so badly is not a natural reaction.

You really should take each and every moment you get with him, and every word, as a gift - he could instead erase you, but you get these little glimpses... each in and of itself a small chance.

The only way you will ever be believable is to be consistent, and to let go of your expectations with your words and actions.

Both your words and your actions are meaningless right now, only consistency and time will prove otherwise to him.

Thanks for the insightful thoughts and such. I will take it one day at time.

Take what I can get.

Expect nothing in return but I can hope to myself without pushing it on to him.

Be consistent with my actions, words and changes.

Be patient and waiting...not pushing.

Even after all the insight and stuff. How do I know if it is really over? That we should file for a D and give him the ability to truly move on as he talks about.

He says he has forgiven me but he just can't forget what I have done.

He is already making plans for the future without me. I can tell he is sad about leaving it as we talk about the mistakes we've made and how we are unable to make it work. But he keeps telling me he's been in love before and had to let go, that it gets better over time.

So should I let him go and not torment him any longer? I'm still in Plan A doing all the things, and of course self improvement on my end, working out, eating right, self esteem exercises, making individual goals, etc.

He just wants a friends with benefits and that is all while we are still living under the same roof.

I know I can't change how he thinks and feels. He has every right to feel the way he does but I get the feeling that he may not come around. Seems like those who recovered their marriage had both people willing to work on it, even if it was not 100%. I am not going to force him to work on something painful or that he doesn't want to, but I am scared it will be like this forever. I think he's really stepped away and I'll just live with the consequences of my action and learn from it.

I am sad and scared about all of this. I have this sinking feeling in my stomach, my heart breaks

He said as time went by after a month separation after the discovery, he felt it just wasn't working over time. Or maybe it's his way of dealing with things?

How long do I plan A before I let him go and let him find happiness elsewhere?

Sorry I am just quite conflicted. I am trying my best to be patient and strong. It's just the sinking feeling that he will not come around, that the damage has already been done by me. I do believe it is worth saving but I don't know if I can ...

I am trying to look forward but I don't think my spouse is joining me.....:(

i apologized for hurting him. He says he believes me and that I am still love him. He said he was sorry for being a bad husband but I tried to tell him that the problem wasn't his. It broke my heart. He said he was never good at relationships. That he had a mask on all this time.

just do what you are doing, tell him it's up to him but you will never give up on him that you think he is worth waiting for and rebuilding with.
then get on with the new you........show him with actions..............
if he wanted to leave he would be gone wouldn't he, this is a sign for you, he is still trying to get everything straight in his head give him that time.

Thank you jessitaylor. I guess I haven't done it that way that he makes the decision and he will file if that is what he really wants, not the decision is mine like right now. He is putting me in a position where I decide if we file this spring on our visit home or after my next year of work. If I stay in this foreign country he would stay with me but as a friend. But he did say if he ever found someone he would pursue it (if it could be long term not one night).

He says he's only staying because he can't work in this foreign country right now and it's the only way he can stay here. I pay all the bills and I am helping him pay for his education.

I will write him a letter telling him how I feel and put the ball in his court.

You let him file for D. It's not over until that D is finalized. Don't let anything other than that day convince you otherwise.


That's just lip service. That isn't forgiveness. I will tell you straight up, right now, that I haven't forgiven my FWW. That was one of the first things that drove me NUTS.

How can I forgive this?

It's hard to forgive the person who cut your heart out while they are standing in front of you with the knife. They have to put the knife down, come at you gently, and help to tend the wound that they created. They can't be trusted while you are still bleeding... only after the bleeding has stopped, and healing has began can they be trusted to be close.




Again, he can't really see the future. Instead, he is making plans on showing you exactly what you screwed up, what you gave up with your choice to wander.

When he talks about having a life with someone else, what is unspoken is; "...and it could have been with you, but you decided to turn your back on me for petty reasons. Now I WILL be happy without YOU."

He is asserting that he doesn't need you in his life to be happy.

In a way, he HAS to. You have just demonstrated how little he means to you, how utterly disposable he is. To get his own feet back underneath him, he is going to imagine standing without you.


If you give up, you just prove he doesn't mean anything.


Or so he says. Understand that this is probably self-protective dishonesty. And he isn't just being dishonest to you, he is telling HIMSELF this lie to protect himself from YOU getting back inside.


Correct, and he may not. But you don't get to decide. You don't get to set that pace. He does. If you make the call for him, not only is that a disrespectful judgement, but if you make the wrong call (he won't come around) then again you show him how easy it is for you to give up, to walk away.





It gets much MUCH harder before it ever gets easier. Ask anyone in recovery, or anyone who has recovered.


As long as it takes. You aren't killing his affair, so the "6 weeks of Plan A for women" thing doesn't really apply in a dead-set manner.


You come up with a goal, you come up with a plan. You follow that plan until you achieve your goal. You will stumble, trip, and fumble... but that should not stop you from moving toward your goal... if you really want it.

HHH thank you.

I am going to hang in there. Thanks for the drama queen comment, that made me laugh and realize that sometimes I can be one.:S I need to stop feeling sorry for myself and keep moving on. I also need to get control of my emotions and stop flip flopping around based on his comments but on what I want and see for us.

I took jessi's comment and asked him tonight what does he want in terms of when he wants with this whole relationship and the divorce proceedings. He told me that it was my decision because in his mind/heart he has already divorced me. So I think I will be strong and stick by him with Plan A until spring 2012 or until he finds someone else that he wants to start a new life with. We spend 1-2 nights apart now after the recent development (his choice not mine). We had stopped that for a short bit till he changed his mind recently. Now he has opposite sex friends as well. I only have one opposite sex friend here and he is gay. He said if he found someone (which he doubts) in the next year he will be honest to me about it.

So I think my plan is to support the both of us for the next year, housing, food, bills, his tuition payments and try to be there for him as much as possible. Help him with his schooling which I have been the past couple of months since he started studying again. (I help him upload things, discuss things, edit) So I will pursue my own goals, better myself and help him with his goals the best I can.

I will take the friends with benefits things and living arrangement and see how it goes.

Tonight was pretty much the last talk we will have until I make a final decision about my work and what country I plan to be in this spring. He doesn't like to talk about anything relating to the relationship so I am backing off (makes him unhappy, uncomfortable, pain, etc).

So try Plan A until next spring...:)

Sorry one more thing.

How should I deal with the fact he is now open to a serious relationship with other women if he happens to meet one? (Even though he says he is not actively looking for one, and all he wants is a friends with benefits...no strings attached which he said he was willing to do with me if there were no strings attached). He basically said no I am not actively looking to get in a relationship with someone else especially something serious. But if I meet that someone who I can see myself with for a long time it's not fair for me to not pursue it and vice versa. What he looks for in a long term relationship is personality and knowing the person well.
He says we are starting over from scratch as friends. But it was more likely he would get into a relationship with another female friend than me b/c of our history.

What does that all mean and how should I take it?

Sorry I am trying to set out a proper plan and goals over the next few weeks on where to go from here...I think I got it figured out but need to finalize it.

He's playing a dangerous game, and his vulnerability to an RA are tremendous.

After betrayal, contrast effect is huge.

I'd rather a longer-term vet answer on this, but I really think you should be somewhat assertive about his activity with opposite sex friends.

"I understand that I have hurt you, and I understand that you have decided to divorce me, but until that time, I want what remains of our marriage to be the best that it possibly can be. I cannot do that when you give your time and attention to other women, even if you only see them as 'friends.' I am willing to give up my opposite-sex relationships as well."

Dunno. Someone else might have a better plan...

Well I told him something along those lines but he said we're not in a marriage anymore:S

That's why I am having some issues making a decision about my plans.

He doesn't want a long term relationship at this point in time. But yes he is vulnerable. I know that he doesn't really discuss our problems with anyone anymore..even his family (maybe because I am so close to them as well).

But he's having these nights out apart. Female friends that he hangs out with. But he is not interested in any of them at the moment. Some of them are married or in a relationship.

He says he will do his best to try and not hurt me but no promises.

So where to go from here? He sees me as a friend right now...and that his friends/new friends ...well basically like this...more likely to start a relationship with someone else than me again...

confused!

Also would like to add that he had thought about an RA for a month or so but then decided against it cause that was not what he had really wanted.

I am just not sure where to go from here with all that he has said. I believe him when he says I am not looking for someone right now, and probably won't until a bit after we sign the papers. But he says that if he finds someone that he thinks he can be with for a long time then he won't give it up....What does it all mean??

As well, it should be noted he has passive aggressive traits.

All very strange. After I told him twice this week about the plans I have been making for long term goals for my career and individual goals in terms of personal growth. We've had SF way more than in the past few weeks and there was no awkwardness at all unlike the times I had pressured him about this relationship.

I told him I no longer hold high expectations for him to come around but would be very happy if he did. He knows that I will not have long conversations about this mess as it causes triggers for him, or force him to try things that I think may help us unless he is okay with it (basically stop being pushy). I have come to accept that he may never come around but that doesn't mean it can't happen and that I should stop trying on my end (still in plan a). But that I am making decisions based on what I think is best for the current situation and consulting him. I discuss these plans with him even though they don't include all involve him. I told him I accept the situation we are in, that he sees us as friends with benefits. I told him I am happy having his company around and enjoying the time we spend together despite the circumstances. I discuss the pros/cons of his choices for the future as well. I told him I am enjoying what I can get out of this situation. He knows that I am sorry I hurt him deeply and that I have been a terrible wife.

Am I doing the right thing? Even though we are discussing things like we're going to separate. I am still in Plan A and doing things on my side but no longer forcing him to participate or expecting him to participate and make this better. Seems like the whole idea of me making plans for my life as I see fit seems to have made him more comfortable around me. (or maybe he feels no pressure anymore now that he thinks I have come to term with the possibility of divorce). I am not trying to play games if that is what anyone thinks. Just planning for the best and worse case and being open with BH.


And talking to Harley this or next Friday...trying to change my appointment.

He's aware I am talking to Harley in the next bit. As well I told him that I still love him and care for him a lot. But that there is no pressure on him, in the end it's his decision and willingness. I am just deciding the length of Plan A now, another 3 months or 15 months (the job lately has been making me think i should leave it but it also means leaving this relationship...). Just the lack of boundaries he has makes me concerned about how likely he will turn it around. Is that selfish of me? Am I doing it wrong?

And hopefully I get insight into this with Harley.

Hi there again, I think you are doing a good job, this is all you can do right now, Plan A the best you can, be understanding with him and give him the time he needs to process, but you should set some kind of dead line to the Plan A and then if he still isn't responding then you have to think about Plan B.
Maybe this is the start of him learning to trust you again and feeling safe around you..........don't give him any reason to doubt your commitment, just keep saying the same things, that you are sorry and that you won't give up on the marriage, you will fight for what you think is important............My husband and I also discussed life apart I think that helped, he could imagine what a different life might be like with a different woman............giving up the history is a hard thing to do..........
Make sure he knows that you won't continue forever like this that he will have to decide at some point..........
I always told my husband I would make sure his last memories of me and our life together were good ones so we could move on as good friends if that was all we were to each other.......
It almost at times seemed like when I backed off a little he would start to reach out to me.....................they start to miss the new you, the woman they have always wanted.......be that woman............and be patient..........

Thanks Jessi for your words of encouragement.

I was wondering how do I decide how long for Plan A since I am not killing off an affair. What factors or things should I take into consideration? I don't want to go too long and have him start dating on me ...but I don't want to give up too soon and regret it.

Hi again LL123,
Well I guess that is up to how long you can hang on to the feelings you still have left for him, there will be a lot of rejections with his attitude......
I did the Plan A for about 4 months, the spring was my deadline.......I figured that was enough time for both of us to decide if the marriage was worth continuing..
I approached like that a two way decision.......
It's not healthy for you to go to long, I would say if he starts dating someone else that this is where Plan B might have to happen.....I think he should at least respect you and your marriage vow until you two are not living together.
Tell him that if this is what he choses you will have to chose your own decisions based on that, that you feel you cannot work on a marriage when someone else is also involved, you have to still have self respect and integrity.........
He will understand and respect that about you.
Just keep Plan Aing and see if he comes around...

Yea I figured if he started dating that would instantly be Plan B. But I guess I need a little more time to decide how long Plan A. I think mine might be around that same time as I have been in Plan A pretty much from when he left the first time in Sept. But this time I have love busting less this month. So it would be about 4 more months in Plan A. I just don't know how long I can last at this job and country. I just don't want to seem like I am giving up but I think if he doesn't turn around in the next few months he probably won't...but I will be talking to Harley next week and get his input.

Could be the lack of pressure/expectations... very well could be hysterical bonding.

Continue to curb your expectations and do your best Plan A - continue to be open and honest and account for your time, and be transparent.


Partial PoJA, move it into full PoJA - even if he walks, it will be good practice for you moving forward.


There is a "stick" in Plan A, remember? This may work... for a while. You are going to have to draw him back into a marriage at some pont.


Careful with this - DJ-land. Kk?


The only reason for you to think about those past mistakes, is to make sure you never repeat them. No. other. reason.



Just my own opinion, but be careful with the demonstrations of "preparing with life without him." Marriage is about interdependence. As a man, what kept me in the home those first few months was the natural caretaker. I just couldn't walk unless I felt FWW could take care of herself without me. Of course, it was a DJ - she had to be able to take care of herself as I saw fit.

If it weren't for that, I probably would have been gone. Not to say I'd still be gone... that I can never know.

Remember, a good deal of men want to be needed and wanted. It's a dangerous gamble to demonstrate (again - the A demonstrated it once) that he is not needed.


And talking to Harley this or next Friday...trying to change my appointment.

He's aware I am talking to Harley in the next bit. As well I told him that I still love him and care for him a lot. But that there is no pressure on him, in the end it's his decision and willingness. I am just deciding the length of Plan A now, another 3 months or 15 months (the job lately has been making me think i should leave it but it also means leaving this relationship...). Just the lack of boundaries he has makes me concerned about how likely he will turn it around. Is that selfish of me? Am I doing it wrong?

And hopefully I get insight into this with Harley. [/quote]

To HHH. Thanks for your input. I am doing the best that I can to curb my expectations which so far has been helping. Hanging out with him has been more fun and the conversations have been better along with SF. I am completely open and honest with him and transparent. He knows what I do with my time and who I am with.

Trying my best for POJA. He was the one who came up with the all the options that I had and we discussed it and narrowed it down. We also did it for his as well, I tried not to display any DJ, just trying to be not bias and discussing the pro/cons of each of the options he was picking. Even when I talk about the plans I try to say something like if it comes down to this...so he knows I haven't exactly given up but in a non pushy way.

I don't know if I am doing it wrong but I was hoping that if he could see that I was strong, had a good self-esteem and set goals that would be part of drawing him back. I know he said recently when we discussing his class, he said was attracted to independent women (which I haven't been for a long time).

I am trying to show him that I have changed all the things about myself that led me to cheat on him. As well, I have been trying to clean the house, take good care of myself, be respectful of his wishes/decisions and be there for him. I try to make every minute we spend together enjoyable for the both of us...which we seem to be.

I am trying to find a fine balance between both ends. Still working on it..but hoping to show him I still want and need him. I think I show him that I want him but the needing part I have to find a fine balance because if I show him too much he tries to run.

So I've been doing Plan A and we've been getting along. But earlier this week, he came home quite trashed. He ended up starting a discussion with me. Still not understanding why. I tried to explain to him that various factors caused it, one of them being my lack of boundaries (spending alone time with men) and poor self esteem. It didn't help him any, he said he only sees things as black and white. I don't exactly understand to this day why I did something like that. (hurting the person I claimed to have cared about)

I told him he was not to blame. But he was quite upset because he said when it happened it was the best point in our marriage in his mind. That made be start crying for all the pain, suffering I have inflicted.

We talked about it, he is still angry and resentful. He hasn't forgiven me as I can tell by talking to him. He still gets the same physiological reactions he did when he found out. He has trouble breathing, it makes him feel ill.

I really wish I could help. I told him if he wanted he could join my coaching session with Harley this week but he refused. The worst part is that he mentioned that some point in his life he will need counseling, I wish he would try now. But I can't change how he feels.

What can I do? I wish I could do something to help as he's still at the same point he was when he found out. He's just better at keeping it bottled.

I wrote him an email the other day and told him it's not that I stopped trying and that I don't care. I am still trying and waiting for him to come back.

He told me throughout the marriage until last summer, he was always deciding whether he wanted to be in this relationship. That it was months before I cheated, he finally decided he was fully committed and I ruined it all.

What do you guys think of it all?

So I tried to give power to my BH to make the decision divorce this spring or stay another year and see. He refused and said since I made the mistake it was in my court. I even talked to Harley so I took his advice the best I could.

So we did go over the why's. But unfortunately BH thinks I cheated because I thought I could get away with it and I was presented with an opportunity. I tried to explain that I put boundaries in place now to reduce opportunities and to prevent males from building up a love bank enough to cause attraction. And that I learned I should have been open and honest about the situation then we could have stopped it. That I learned my lesson. But he doesn't think it's enough. He believes my words now that I will not cheat again, but he doesn't believe in the far future that is the case. He just can't/won't trust me.

He even went as far to tell me harm the OM. That would be a big step in earning his trust as it would be leverage for him if I ever cheated again....I told him I could never harm another human being even though I loved him and wanted him back, it just isn't right.

At first, I decided this spring but I felt wrong and sad about my decision. Now I am staying in this country for one more year, no more. I realized that if we separated I was financially stable for a bit, had an interview at an in-laws company for a very promising job and a place to rent from my in-laws at a low price. But my BH doesn't have any options for the most part especially with an unfinished degree. I guess this is my compensation is to ensure that he has potential and finishes that degree we said he would. I thought it would be best not to leave him with a broken heart and broken dreams. I am taking a huge risk though but we all have take risks sometimes right?

He told me he is giving me something to work with. He said what kind of friendship states that we don't date other people or to not have one night stand. He is giving me an extra year and what I do with that is up to me. He said he didn't want to make the hard decision cause it was a hard one and it meant ending the arrangement we have now. To be done and over. But he still isn't willing to try and still forsees a divorce next year. He said that my chances of making this work were low either way but lower if I left this spring.

So it's quite confusing. We spend 4-6 nights together. We talk about his school work, watch movies, play games, etc. But not much for outside activity and I've just stopped pushing and taking what he is willing to give.

Also, he said how much time should he give me to prove to him I could be trusted. He gave me 6 years and I threw it in his face. That he can't wait another 6 years to see if I do it again.He says he knows if he put in effort it would work but he doesn't feel like it.

He feels some guilt as well because he thinks I am giving up a lot in staying and that he may have manipulated me. But I guess this is the decision that makes me the happiest yet hurts a lot.

This is a confusing and difficult situation...

I'm confused by this... but, I'm a rookies, so who knows.

It seems like you were putting a timeline on recovery for him. I could just be reading this wrong.


The best thing he can learn, is that he shouldn't trust you, and that he should have total transparency from you - nothing less.

His thoughts about it are exactly what happened; you thought - in your foggy wayward mind - that you could get away with it. You had the opportunity, and you took it.

The reality was something completely different than what you believed - and even "getting away with it" was of no positive consequence, it brought only pain and guilt when it came into the light.

Add dishonesty (hiding what happened) to the mix, and you start to get an idea of where he is.


Harm the OM how? What he is asking for is a demonstration that the OM means nothing to you.

Exactly what harm did he request? Exposure? That's not harm, that's protection, that's honesty, that's integrity.


Your compensation is based on his behavior? What exactly are you risking here?

Your compensation has nothing to do with his degree, with his behavior. That's some foggy talk; "let's see if he will do what he said he would!"

Just compensation is in transparency, EP's, and radical honesty, not in how your presence or lack thereof affects his education.


He is giving you what he is capable of at this point while still protecting himself from further harm. He's a turtle peeking out of his shell - what has to be seen when he peeks is action, commitment... possibly remorse.


Good. Avoid LB's, meet EN's - be a pleasant companion. THAT is how you build a LB$ balance - not by leveraging expectations. Again, you are drawing him back in.


He can't know how long it takes. Maybe it would take 6 years. It will take 2 AT A MINIMUM.

Wanna know how you can know how long it takes? When you are looking backwards from a position of being recover-ed, not while you are recover-ing, or attempting to begin recovery.


Yeah, you are giving up the opportunity to continue schtupping other guys, which he thinks you want to do, because you did it.

He's trying to push you away. You can let him do it, if you want to prove to him that you don't want to be there, that it is all an act to get him to drop his guard again.

Or you can stand there firmly and say "I'm in this until the end, mister!"

I wasn't trying to put a timeline on his recovery. He is choosing not to recover and he brought up divorce. Harley told me I should let him choose between working the marriage or divorce this spring.

He wanted me to physically harm the OM, exact details I don't want to go into. For a long time, BH was going to harm the OM. But what stopped him the first time was that he couldn't get supplies. Then when he asked for a divorce he stopped caring.

Hi HHH,

Sorry my response was incomplete. It was late for me when I responded.

About the time line, I was told that I should give him a choice that either he tries or walks away. I thought it was a bit harsh, but I tried it. It didn't work. He didn't want to make either decision. Nor did he want to decide when we should divorce as he was the one who asked for it. This advice was actually given to me by Harley and another marriage counselor I spoke to in the last few weeks that he should either walk away if he wasn't willing to restore the marriage. So that plan failed. I wasn't trying to put a time line on his recovery.

I am fine with exposure and such. But the physical harm was what got to me and I refused that request. Yea it would earn his trust back if I did something terrible to the OM physically, but some how that wouldn't feel right. I am just glad he is past planning doing something terrible to the OM as he was a month ago.

I have been honesty, taking EP and trying to meet his needs. But of course, meeting his needs is rather difficult when he is withdrawn still. We have lots of conversations, like last night we discussed a movie and then had discussion about the bible and God (neither one of u are religious...we're science people and like to discuss such things still). We did this while lying in bed for at least an hour or more. We have sex a decent amount, the same as before everything fell apart and there is no awkwardness like earlier in Jan.

The whole thing about the 6 year of trust and such. I wasn't putting a time line on the trust or expecting when he feels comfortable again. I was trying to explain that he was trying to tell me he couldn't invest that time into the relationship again because time was wasting away and he's not getting younger. That he doesn't want to make the same mistake twice with me and waste another 6 years when he thinks I will cheat again. His words were that once you cheated it was easier to do it again.

I am doing my best and just not fighting with him. Being pleasant and showing him that I have matured. He even made some comment tonight that I must be maturing but a kind of wait and see if it permenant or temporary.

I am not letting him push me away, I am sticking by him for at least another year. I told him I would unless something drastic happens.

I am really uncomfortable with the fact that he spends time with females going out drinking 1-3x a week. Sure they aren't one on one nor just a group of only girls but it makes me uncomfortable even though he says he will not do anything unless he falls in love with another female. He says that he is not looking for a relationship or even a one night stand at the moment. He does spend the most time with me and such. We have discussed it and I think it's his way of taking revenge on me. I think this because he will say why does he have to take special precautions or measures when I was the one who screwed up and that he hasn't done anything that is considered questionable.

So I guess I am doing my best to earn his trust and love back. I am trying to show him my changes are permenant and I am not that immature, impulsive person who had the affair in Sept. All of his family and friends back home think we should give it another year so that helps a .As well, his best male friend thinks he shouldn't walk away either and that we should stick together for another year to see what happens. BH is of course not positive about things but that's to be expected. I have to show him I have really changed.

so you think that you have to change.

********edit********

I'm the last one to judge for that. Was recently told by a proctor that I "think like a woman" and get easily distracted, because as a man, I need to learn to "think like a man."

O_o

This was a woman telling me this, by the way.


I guess I get that... I was wondering why it was stated as "divorce now or give it a year." He's putting the ball in your court. His mention of divorce may be genuine, or he may be testing the fences. I mentioned divorce and separation several times last year - all FWW had to do is say OK, and I would have been g-o-n-e. Testing the fences.


What kind of exposure has been done?


I'm in the same boat, though FWW is more of a Deist. I would say keep that up. Safe, pleasant conversation is a cornerstone of UA time.



And he is right. That is why things like EPs, including an opposite sex avoidance plan, are necessary.


Time and action. Of course.


I wouldn't add the "unless."


He's putting himself in a situation to create opportunity. You are right to be uncomfortable. And yes, he may be doing this to punish you - he is showing you how easy it would be for him to do the same thing.


2-5 and look for incremental changes, not monumental. Each day is a gift, and an opportunity. Relish it.

Thanks for the information and insight HHH.

As for exposure related to the OM, all of our friends who know him know about it. As well as his boss and co-workers.

I will remember to not put conditions upon staying in this country for another year.

Things are going well and I will take what I get as a gift:) If things don't work out then I accept that but in the meantime I will enjoy what I am getting and do whatever I can from my side. I am being consistent and showing him through my actions that I have made changes. (not just to save the relationship but to take care of myself and be happy with myself)

Have a good weekend!

I've been making new friends here in this foreign country after this whole thing. I have been honest with the new friends with what has happened (all these friends are female who sometimes come with their bf or husband) as they wonder why my husband doesn't join me for activities. My husband has no problems with me telling others as he does the same when questioned about the state of the marriage. I was just wondering what is the proper approach? I know there is the whole exposure thing and such but that is done by the BS to end an affair. But did you as a BS or WS tell other people your story?

I tell people that I had an affair. I regret that it ever happened and I am trying to make changes to save/recover this marriage. If it doesn't work out then I accept the consequences of my actions/decisions. (even though I hope it doesn't come to that)

Any opinions on on sharing with friends or am I making a mistake?

So just trying to get my thoughts out. Been reflecting as the past week it was approaching an important date (not d-day related or affair related, just other life events). I keep saying I made a mistake or bad decision but I realize it was not one decision or mistake I made, it was a series or decisions that led to a PA. At any point I could have stopped the series of events but chose not to.

Some days things are great but Friday night was a bad night as I had a complete meltdown in front of my husband. I totally blurted out absolutely everything I had been thinking and feelings:S I apologized for causing him pain even though he said it's okay he'll deal. That made me more upset. I even told him one of my students I teach has the same name as the OP, it makes me feel ill every time I see the name or call the student. Not the student's fault obviously.

In the meantime, I have just been trying to clean up my side of the fence, change what I can and accept the things I cannot. I just have to let go of all expectations of my BH. Sometimes I can manage some days, some days are more difficult when you get your hopes up.

We spend a lot of time together at home, talk, doing school work, etc. We get along fine and everything looks great. But we have our problems still that we don't discuss (Well except for my meltdown:S Been POJA what I can with him when it comes to decisions I am making and getting his input. Just taking things one day at a time and see where we'll end up next year this time around.

So over the next year my husband tells me that I am to prove that I won't cheat on him again. What steps should I take?
So far, he can have full access to my email/facebook/phone anytime. (note: I didn't have an inappropriate relationships over email nor facebook but he has full access to them as he pleases). Although, he's not particularly interested in any of those items. He's also not interested in keyloggers.

I have been open and honest about everything that I can be in terms of my life and feelings. He has been given full details on the affair. No contact has been in place since Sept. If I ever run into OM or see him I let BH know. OM and I work on the same block but have not spoken since the day after D-day. If I see him, I tell BH and I walk the other direction.

These are the following EP's I put in place:
1. No alone time with any males unless they are gay that we both agree to. (no lunches, dinners, drinks, etc with males)
2. Conversations with males do not involve personal life, etc. For example, co-workers, no more than hi, how are you and if I need help with something that no one else can help with. (like sometimes I have to talk to the head teacher for my books).
3. no flirting with males
4. limited drinking when out with friends (no more binge drinking)

Personal changes
1. working on self esteem
2. working on communication skills

POJA
He doesn't participate in these but I try to think about my decisions before I act upon them so I am not the source of his unhappiness (well anymore so than I have done in the past).

Any other suggestions? How did your WS show that they were sincere and that they would never have an affair again? Thanks

anyone have any more ideas about the above question?

He says I have only this year to show him that I will not have another affair.

Anything other suggestions for EP or other things that I may have missed? Any other actions that I can take?

Okay, since you asked

I think your H is being a bully. And I also think he's boxing himself in and doing himself a disservice by refusing to work on MB with you. It sounds like you're on probation! When the year is up, do you get to cheat again, is that what he's saying? Has he not figured out how silly this 'one year' thing is?

L123, you've been posting for awhile and you seem to be no farther ahead than your first post. Your H sounds like he has chosen to stay in a place where he is getting emotional feedback by keeping the A as a primary focus in his life. This is called 'secondary gain'. I'll see if I can find the article where Dr. H. addresses that.

I think that he is punishing you. Don't get me wrong - I am very aware of the desire to punish a wayward spouse. But he can't continue in this vein and necessarily expect a healthy outcome. I think that you may come to resent this and he'll start withdrawing from your LB. I'm not saying he needs to 'get over it' because that is an idiot phrase that does not apply to affairs. But I AM saying that IMO he is doing a disservice to both of you and your M by making sure that you know he is following you around with an axe over your head for the next year.

Can you counsel with the Harleys? I think they're your best bet to get him over this hump and on board with recovery.

Dr. Harley on Secondary Gain:


You need to help your H lose this UNuseful tool.

Check out the whole article on overcoming resentment here.

He isn't saying that after the year I could/would cheat again. He wants me to prove/show him that I am different person and that I will not make the same choices that led me to having an affair. Basically, he wants to be trust that I won't cheat on him or hurt him again.

After the year, if he isn't happy he will divorce me. He says it's not like he is looking forward to it. It's like looking forward to getting shot. But he's already been shot once, and staying with me might be risking more than one more bullet. So those are his words not mine.

Thanks for the information. I might try to get another session with Harley. I did it alone last time and will probably again. BH is not interested in the coaching and he feels no need for it as we aren't officially a couple (in terms of being in love, etc).

he says it's up to me to make him fall in love with me again and to trust me again, that I did it before so figure it out....so what is what I am trying to do....

Sorry my thoughts are a little disjointed.

To sum it up, he expects that I am the one to prove something to him. He doesn't want to work on the marriage and is seeking divorce unless I can convince him during this time. Yes, I do realize it is his choice if he chooses to divorce me as I gave him an extremely good reason. If he does leave, I can't blame him.

I am grateful that he is even open the idea of falling back in love with me and maybe being able to trust me (Even though I have shown otherwise and broke it).

I am trying to make the best of it right now and hope that one day he'll trust and love me again.

He's exactly right. It is your responsibility to make him be in love with you. And that begins with him feeling safe and secure enough to be open to that romantic love.

Some here might find it silly that he's placed a time frame on wanting to feel safe, secure and in love with you again, but I understand where he's coming from.

I strongly encourage you to do phone counseling with MB. They deal in length with this very issue and make sure both husband and wife are on the same page.

How is this set up working for your husband? Does it bother him that you could potentially run in to this guy any given work day? It wouldn't sit well with me.

My husband has actually been fine with it. He is no longer concerned anything will occur now or in the future with OM. He is more concerned about future OM. I have seen OM a total of 2 times in the neighborhood by my work since D-day (no words were exchanged and I think both times he didn't see me as I ran into other buildings or his back was turned). I only go the stores around my area before I start class and don't leave my work until I am finished (then I just head straight home).

Have you suggested a move to your BH?

Hi HHH,
I have suggested a move back in Sept and again in January. One of the suggestions was to go back home where the majority of our family and friends are. But he said if we were to that, we would only go back for a vacation (like we are this spring) or get a divorce. (unless he feels better about things then moving back home would not result in a divorce, but right now a divorce would be in the picture if we moved back home)

I also suggested a move within this country but that was nixed as well. He thinks the change of scenery might lead one of us (particularly me to stray again).

Ack.

A change of scenery will;

1) further ensure no further contact with POSOM, and
2) remove triggers, and allow the building of new memories.

Well, that is what I thought. I personally dislike all the triggers. My triggers don't actually bring back happy memories or the feelings I had for OM. It more makes me sick to my stomach and upsets me. It makes me think how could I have done it, and leaves me in a state of disbelief. I personally don't know about BH and his feelings towards triggers. He doesn't like to discuss these things with me anymore. I do however know that there is still lingering thoughts about physically harming the OM but the feelings aren't as strong as they were 2 months ago.

To add to that, BH works at a school where they share the same boss. The location of the two schools are on opposite ends of town but it was OM who got him this job.

L123, I'm not saying your DH doesn't have the right to be hurt and angry, because he does. I understand that, believe me. But it seems that he is refusing to get on board with recovering the marriage. It looks like he's putting up his own roadblocks, and I don't think that will help either of you.

Did you look at the link I posted, where Dr. H talks about resentment? Is there any way you can talk to your BH about a session with Dr. H to help him?

Dr. H. on Resentment (emphasis mine):

Thank you Martialbliss.

I did read the article. We talked about resentment a few times. We realized he has been resenting me even though he thought he had gotten over it. However, he refuses to speak to Harley. But when I did have my session last time he was all curious about what Harley had said and assessment of the situation and the plan of action he thought I should implement or the steps to be taken. That's about all I am able to get him to be receptive to. BH will not read the article or anything associated with MB or marriage related.

I did tell him that I would even pay for the session if he wanted to talk to him alone instead as a couple so he could perspective on things. But he refused. I even mentioned that it would be a good idea whether we stayed together or not so he can find ways to put this stuff behind so he can move on with or without me (of course I would prefer with me but that of course is selfish).

So I have pretty much hit a roadblock.

He calls me his ex-wife or soon to be ex-wife. Definitely not what I wanted to hear, but again I did this.

Just grasping at straws, but I wonder if his reluctance is based on the belief that MB counseling will only tell him to "get over it."

Would he at least read the articles from online with you if you printed them out?

Most of them print out to 2-3 pages.

So, what do you want to do now? You aren't happy with the 1 year arrangement. I can't say as I blame you. You have a broken marriage, and without actively trying to repair it, it could be beyond repair in a year. You seem to be committed to recovery and he does not. Your Giver is eventually going to give out, and you're going to start resenting him.

And then there will be two resentful people in a marriage that needs to be recovered. I'm not seeing this accomplishing much.

He calls you his ex-wife? That is abusive and unfair to you. He's telling you to stick around for a year and maybe then he'll see where he wants to be, but in the meantime calls you his ex-wife?

You know what his plan is. What is YOUR plan? Can the two of you establish some rules regarding this 1 year moratorium on recovery? Can you list things to honor that will at least create some precautions in your M while this clock is ticking?

As in no more references to his "ex-wife". If he wants an ex-wife he needs to file for divorce. He doesn't have to be on board with recovery, but he doesn't need to be digging its grave, either.

I have decided to stay for the one year and do my best. I've been doing most of the housework, cooking, cleaning, helping him with his schooling, fulfilling his need for SF, etc. I am trying not to let the taker side take over but sometimes it is hard and that is when I just kind of isolate myself so I am pull myself together again as I recently just went through a down spell after 2 months of giving. I know that sounds bad but I didn't want to have AO or DJ because my taker side was taking over.

We have some rules, such as no pursuing relationships outside of this marriage even though it is broken. He is to try and spend time with me whether it is UA or not.

He is not willing to read even a sentence of anything. He will however just let me summarize it for him. He told me no lists, no questionnaires, no reading stuff, etc.

I agree, that is abusive.

Where is he getting his infidelity recovery wisdom from? Friends? Books?

What happens when you ask him to please not call you his ex-wife?

Are you spending time together now, just the two of you? And what are those times like? Is there any pleasure and joy, or is he sad/angry/pissy with you?

If you haven't already shared with him your EPs and hope and dreams for the future of your marriage, I would do so. Even if he seems reluctant to hear or read them, attempt to share them with him. Let him know what your action plan is to ensure you will never hurt him in this way again. Repeat.

I bet he'd read a sheet of paper you print out or hand write that has some important points highlighted.

Maybe you can have them laying around on the kitchen table or something.

Make sure the first one you print out is not the one on overcoming resentment. It sounds like he needs to fully embrace his pain first, and then eventually move on.

Has anyone besides you ever acknowledge the deep pain he's experienced from the A?

The first chapter of the SAA book discusses the heartbreak. I think it's helpful to have the depth of the tragedy acknowledged when you're feeling so full of despair.

He is not getting any wisdom from anyone.

When he calls me his ex-wife or soon to ex-wife I tell him I would prefer not to be called that as that is not what I am right now.He doesn't refer to me as that in front of me, it's mostly to other people which I don't know.

I think in the initial stages he talked to a few friends, but because none of them have experienced betrayal such as this they think it is easy to get over.

We spend most evenings together during the week, lately it's been 5-6x a week. We spend it alone at home either watching shows/movies, exercising, talking, games, puzzles, etc. Mostly the time we spend together is actually pleasant. We have no problems for the most part.

I do have some difficulties with him though. For example, he came home after drinking and told me we are not a couple and we don't do couple things. One of the things I wanted to do later this year was to take a short trip somewhere outside of this country together. He always tells me he will think about it in a cold tone. As well, if I am upset he seems to think SF will fix how I feel. I told him it doesn't but he doesn't believe it.

I shared with him a couple of times, back in Oct and end of Jan my EP, plans and goals for the marriage. After talking to Harley, I tried to get him to understand the why's of what happened. I told him it was that I failed to protect him and our marriage. It was not that he had done or not done something.

How much does he drink, L?

I'm surprised that no one found this a little off-putting? I'd be downright scared to be with someone who would think this way, and ask me to hurt another human being.

You've been married three years, he offers an open marriage, just decides right around the time you cheat that it might work and he will now commit?

Personally, I wouldn't try to win this one back. I don't know what his deal is, but his thought process is not right. I would run, not walk.

.

Puh-lease.

He "offered an open marriage" like they allowed gays in the military. She just didn't get the fact that at the time he answered "don't ask/don't tell" that he meant "I'm not Okay with it, but I'll tell you that I am to keep you."

Let's not drag this woman back to that point.

I was being sarcastic, hard to convey in the written word.

He is abusive. Period. Before the affair, and since.

He asked her to physically hurt someone they both used to care about. He is enjoying tormenting her with his weird rollercoaster ride.

.

Just woke up. TO martialbliss, he drinks once a week on average.

I am not sure his thought process but I do love this man and he does have his good points. When he goes dark it is scary but I think he does choose to not be that way.

Anyhow, I sent him an email with the following but when I asked him what he thought of it no reaction. I asked him what he thought, felt, any comments, etc...he said nothing. I found this and modified the list that someone else had posted for EP's.
"A) I will protect my spouse, marriage and his feelings, number one priority.
B) I will not participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex.
C) I will not discuss my personal marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.
D) I agree to use POJA as a basis for all decisions. (making decisions that we both are happy with, or at least on my side of the fence, not making decisions that will make you unhappy or where you feel like I am doing something wrong)
E) I will be open and honest with my spouse at all times about the past, present and future without being angry or disrespectful.
F) I will provide my spouse a daily schedule of all appointments at request.
G) I will trade phones with my spouse at any time he requests, no questions asked.
H) I will leave my phone accessible to my spouse anytime I�m home.
I) Anytime I have the thought, �I don�t want my spouse to know about��.�, I will let my spouse know immediately and tell them my thoughts.
J) I will make decisions/actions that does not cause my spouse unhappiness.
K) Anything else my spouse wants as a boundary.
L) If I find any members of the opposite sex attractive in any manner, I will cut all ties immediately.
M) I will not flirt with members of the opposite sex in any way, shape or form (talking or text messaging)
N) If a member of the opposite sex comments on my attractiveness in any form, thank them, move on and cut ties off with that particular person.
don't expect you to stick around after our year contract is up either but you have given me this time to show you that I will not hurt/betray you again. That is what I am doing. I just want the time we spend together during this time to be the best we can make of it and not have either one of us unhappier than we already are.

Just because we are not a couple in your eyes does not mean we cannot do things together either. When I want us to do something together I don't have the expectation that it will turn into something couple-like nor romantic or that it will fix things or make things better. It is more I just want us to enjoy each others company during this potential last year together and making the best of the situation."

I don't think he is enjoying the roller coaster ride. He can be nice to me when we are not discussing the affair, our problems, etc.
I asked him again about the list, he coldly told me you can do whatever you want. I don't care. Then after the shower, he was all nice to me again.

It's just all very confusing because I think he cares but refuses to open up to anyone at all...I mean he won't talk to his family, friends or to me about his thoughts and feelings nor a counselor. This just made him shut down more. Maybe I am reading into things but the divorce is not something he wants, he just thinks it's safer (who could blame him).

I don't really know what to do right now. .

I am sticking to my plan and such (plan a, got him to understand the whys). He has all the details about what happened. I told him several times it was not his fault it happened, that it wasn't due to unmet needs or unhappiness. He understands that I had an opportunity and took it. I tried to explain why I have the EP's in place, to protect him and the marriage. I told him he can see how well I follow through with them to see if my word actually means anything.

Basically, plan A. Also reminding him that I am not his ex-wife until we get a divorce. We agreed that we would not have a one night stand nor actively start another relationship. But before that he tried to give me the same stuff I got this summer (I don't care who, how many or when you sleep with people I just don't want to know about it...). I am accused of playing games at times because I am not direct about my thoughts or feelings but sometimes I feel like he is (maybe he doesn't know it but he does).

Sorry had to vent. I do realize this situation is something I brought upon myself.

Maybe I'm just harsh... but this, and your original "he wants me to hurt the OM" comment... just smack of



Is he a mafioso? Drug kingpin? A member of MS13 or the Hell's Angels? A terrorist? A spy?

I'll tell you what, I'm sure if I had the proper time fall on me, I would probably tell FWW I'd like to see her neuter the OM.

What, exactly, is his "dark side?" Huh? Is it something truly frightening, as in only an immoral person would be married to this man, or is it a convenient manner in which to garner some sympathy?

Please, be honest.

Beyond that, you ARE doing good.

I am not saying my husband is crazy or some constant immoral person. Sometimes he just wants to choose the "easy" path. Ex. a life of crime instead of earning honest money. This is why I keep pushing his school work as well, it keeps him out of trouble and at least if we separate he'll have something to work with.

And I can't exactly say that I am moral person.

In addition, I am just stressed. He is taking off for the weekend. Not a MB thing to do but I can't stop him. Plus inside, the past couple of weeks I have been a total wreck but slowly piecing myself together again. As well, last weekend we had seen someone who knows the situation and OM (the person hates OM as well). But Bh told me today he felt embarrassed to be seen together and about the situation:S really took a hit to my self esteem.

You are very vague on the harm he intends to do to OM. I don't know if that is on purpose for affect or what.

If you are talking about him beating up, minorly injuring the OM or hurting his property there are some on here that would say let him go for it. (I am not one of them but I see their point)

HOWEVER...you seem to be alluding to some sort of life threatening behavior in which case you have a moral and legal obligation to contact the authorities.

You also say your husband isn't "immoral" but discuss him dealing drugs or crime versus getting a job. Most would consider that pretty immoral.

I understand that you are a WW and feel that you can't sit in judgement of your BH and that is fine; however, if he is engaging in criminal behavior and you are aware of it, you are an accessory.

He absolutely has the right to leave you for what you did...harming others or engaging in illegal behaviors is not a right from being cheated on.

I agree. It sounds like he's plotting illegal activity that needs to be reported.

What is he planning?

I haven't read that people on this board condone violence. I have only read that people understand the motivation/desire to respond violently to adultery.

Violence is definitely not acceptable.

I'll post my email address so you can send me the OM's contact info, and I'll call the cops and warn them.

A BH shot and killed an OM in my state last week.

You have an obligation to step in here so such a tragedy is avoided.

You are to blame. Maybe BH isn't responding to your pleas, because he sees that you aren't taking 100% accountability?

As WW's we've got to take complete responsibility before any hope of recovery can be made.

Exactly what harm does it do for you to lay it out, rather than double-speak covering it up?

I can tell you exactly what I would do if I ran into my OM; I would take him down to the ground, and swing until someone or something stopped me.

Luckily, he lives 2 states away now.

So in that respect, I am not a moral person. I want a little just compensation on the other end of things... a little primal satisfaction, I guess.

I've pictured it, I've dreamt it... I've crossed my fingers for it every time I walk into the place I picture it happening.

However, I am saying that you really should think about being married to a man who prefers "a life of crime instead of earning honest money." He obviously does not get that his actions affect his family - for example you, and any children you have, or will have in the future.

He actually sounds kind of like a freeloader.

I am being vague on purpose because I feel like I am betraying his trust already and by giving details is even more of it. You have to understand I betrayed him in one of the worst ways possible and to do it another way when I am trying to fix my marriage.... Right now I think he'll just probably beat up OM when he gets a chance. BH has never shown any tendencies for harming people or animals before.

I don't think he is a freeloader. He just has trouble deciding about things. I asked him about a time 2 winters ago where he said I should have slept with our neighbor and why he made such an offhanded comment. He said it wasn't actually that he would have approved, just more a get out of marriage card. He is just conflicted about important things in life and when things don't go well, it comes out.

Anyhow, I can tell everyone he has not committed an actual crime since we've been dating, only an attempt to deal drugs once. He was a trouble maker in school and was a HS dropout. But now is finishing a degree. He is changing.

I believe I have taken 100% responsibility for what I have done with regards to the affair. I told him that it wasn't due to unmet needs by him or unhappiness. I let my needs be met outside of the marriage and I failed to protect him and our marriage.

If you have knowledge that a crime is being planned, we would encourage you to contact the police immediately. You can possibly be held criminally liable if you do not.

Marriage Builders does not advocate violence and can't be a party to the planning of a crime. We are locking this thread.