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WW27 #2445570 11/22/10 08:15 PM
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Please forgive the question, but is it possible that he is doing anything inappropriate with his male friends?


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2399446#Post2399446
FBS- me, 53
FWH-53
Married 34 yrs
DD 27 and 30, DS 19 (disabled)
after 2nd DDay, filed for D Dec 09 (me)
6-6-10 WH moved in with OW
7-3-10 WH returned home
taking recovery one day at a time

"Forget the former things;
do not dwell on the past.
See I am doing a new thing!
I am making a way in the desert
and streams in the wasteland."
Isaiah 43:18-19
EllenG #2445571 11/22/10 08:20 PM
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He is not doing anything inappropriate with him that I know of.

For me, I don't believe he is doing anything.

He said he felt like I ripped out his heart and stomped on it:'( He thought that I would never have slept with someone else and that if he never found out about it he would have been happy. It's the case that he's extremely hurt/betrayed. He can't believe the person he trusted the most could/would do something like that.

I should mention that this guy was actually his best friend in the foreign country we are living in. Not his best friend out of all his friends. But this guy was considered his BF until this all happened. So he feels betrayed by both.

As well, I was the one who decided he should have a weekend away as he talked about it but never did. He actually wanted to take a short trip somewhere in the new years. But because we had been fighting a lot last week I thought some time apart now instead of later would be nice.


Last edited by LL123; 11/22/10 08:26 PM.

FWW?
no children
D-day Sept 2010
Divorced requested by BH Jan 2011
Separated Sept 2011
OW discovery Oct 2011
Divorced 2012
WW27 #2445576 11/22/10 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by LL123
As well, I was the one who decided he should have a weekend away as he talked about it but never did. He actually wanted to take a short trip somewhere in the new years. But because we had been fighting a lot last week I thought some time apart now instead of later would be nice.

Did you read my posts about why this is bad for your marriage?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


WW27 #2445578 11/22/10 08:37 PM
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LL,, there could not be a WORSE time for you to be apart. Your marriage needs top attention. NOW. When the house is on fire it is best to stay there and save the house.

Why don't you plan to go somewhere TOGETHER this weekend?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2445579 11/22/10 08:38 PM
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I did read what you said.

But there is not much I can do. I am trying to meet his needs. His top 5 needs were (not in the order he listed): affection, respect, time to himself, honesty/openness and conversation.


FWW?
no children
D-day Sept 2010
Divorced requested by BH Jan 2011
Separated Sept 2011
OW discovery Oct 2011
Divorced 2012
WW27 #2445580 11/22/10 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by LL123
I did read what you said.

But there is not much I can do. I am trying to meet his needs. His top 5 needs were (not in the order he listed): affection, respect, time to himself, honesty/openness and conversation.

LL, spending time alone is not an emotional need! That is ridiculous. One cannot create romance if they are not together so that makes no sense.

Do you know this program does not work if you don't spend 20+ hours per week of undivided attention time together meeting the top 4 intimate needs of affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship. Unless you are spending your leisure time together you can't very well recover your marriage.
Quote
more from Effective Marriage Counseling:

From the book:
Dr Harley wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"When I see a couple for the first time, I let them know that my program will require a minimum of fifteen hours a week of their time. If they can't dedicate that much time while I'm counseling them, I suggest they find another counselor because my plan won't work without it."
In this quote he uses the figure of 15 hours, but he adds in other writings that it needs to be 20+ when a couple is recovering from adultery.

And sure, something can be done. Plans can always be changed.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2445590 11/22/10 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by LL123
His top 5 needs were (not in the order he listed): affection, respect, time to himself, honesty/openness and conversation.

This is not alone:
Originally Posted by LL123
I actually knows what he is doing as he is spends every weekend with a male mutual friend of ours or his boss.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2445594 11/22/10 09:49 PM
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I will discuss it with him this week on our discussion night. But we've talked about it before and he doesn't want to cancel the one night out a week. He wants time to himself doesn't mean he wants to be alone, he wants time to be away from the relationship to spend time with friends. This is something he wanted before....

I also talked to some of his siblings who I am close to. They said give him his space as that is the type of person he is. But they also said that the time we do spend together should be doing something healthy. We spend 6 nights a week together other than the night out. This week will be 5 nights.

Is having once a week discussion about the relationship enough? We decided there was unlimited time for discussion but that it was set once a week.

Last edited by LL123; 11/22/10 10:08 PM.

FWW?
no children
D-day Sept 2010
Divorced requested by BH Jan 2011
Separated Sept 2011
OW discovery Oct 2011
Divorced 2012
WW27 #2445599 11/22/10 10:34 PM
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Quote
I will discuss it with him this week on our discussion night. But we've talked about it before and he doesn't want to cancel the one night out a week. He wants time to himself doesn't mean he wants to be alone, he wants time to be away from the relationship to spend time with friends. This is something he wanted before....

This is a very unhealthy, dangerous practice for any marriage. It leads to emotional detachment and often leads to affairs. Your marriage is already suffering from a lack of emotional intimacy, so spending time apart will only add to the problem.

And secondly, if you want to recover your marriage, you should learn to never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of the other.

Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
Most couples whose marriages begin the way mine did make a crucial mistake -- they go their separate ways. He joins his friends in recreational activities he enjoys most and leaves his wife to find her own recreational companions for activities that interest her. That's a formula for marital disaster. If someone else of the opposite sex joins either of you in your favorite recreational activities, you are at risk to fall in love with that person. Besides, if you are not together when you are enjoying yourselves the most, you are squandering an opportunity to deposit love units.
here

Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
When a couple spend their leisure-time away from each other, it is not only a breeding ground for an affair, but it can also be another clue to an affair. That's especially true when a spouse doesn't want the other to be present at their favorite activity. I counseled a man who went fishing every summer for a week with his friends, wives not invited. But they did invite a secretary from work who cooked their meals (and had sex with them all) during the trip.

Anything that takes one spouse away from the other overnight is an invitation for an affair. But when an opposite-sex co-worker tends to join a spouse on business trips, red flags should be flying in all directions. Any evidence that this relationship is anything more than pure business is, from my perspective, a gigantic clue that an affair might be in progress. That's also the case if a spouse and opposite-sex co-worker spend a great deal of time working together.
Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Originally Posted by Dr Willard Harley
One topic is loss of trust. How can a spouse ever trust an unfaithful partner again? My answer is that the spouse should never have been trusted in the first place. I shouldn't be trusted by my wife, and I shouldn't trust her. The fact is that we are all wired for infidelity, and under certain conditions, we'll all do it. The way to protect your marriage from something that has been common to man (and women) for thousands of years is to recognize the threat, and do something to prevent it from happening. Basing a marriage on the Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward preventing an affair. Being each other's favorite leisure-time companions, and not being away from each other overnight are also important safety measures. Meeting each other's most important emotional needs, avoiding Love Busters and building an integrated lifestyle, free of secret second lives, are all ways to affair-proof your marriage. With these measures in place, we end up trusting our spouses because an affair becomes almost impossible to achieve.
here



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


WW27 #2445600 11/22/10 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by LL123
I also talked to some of his siblings who I am close to. They said give him his space as that is the type of person he is. But they also said that the time we do spend together should be doing something healthy. We spend 6 nights a week together other than the night out. This week will be 5 nights.

What are their professional credentials at saving marriages?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2445650 11/23/10 06:49 AM
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They don't have professional credentials, they are just his siblings. One of them has been married for 20 years in a stable and loving relationship.

Anyhow, I will take to my husband about these things. But at the same time I can't push him to do what he doesn't want to or doesn't feel is comfortable for him. We do spend 10 hours of time together doing things together at home and such (conversation, recreation and affection, sex not as much..only been 1-2x a week). But I guess we'll up the undivided attention by some more. However, he thinks that as a couple you don't need to spend every spare minute together. There should be some agreed time apart.

Last edited by LL123; 11/23/10 06:50 AM.

FWW?
no children
D-day Sept 2010
Divorced requested by BH Jan 2011
Separated Sept 2011
OW discovery Oct 2011
Divorced 2012
WW27 #2445655 11/23/10 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by LL123
I did read what you said.

But there is not much I can do. I am trying to meet his needs. His top 5 needs were (not in the order he listed): affection, respect, time to himself, honesty/openness and conversation.

HUH?? Time spent alone?? This isn't a need, it's a want. doh2 And I fail to see where he's getting this 'need' met. Does he go out and sit all by himself in his car once a week to get this 'time spent alone'? No. Actually, you're saying he 'needs' time away from you. Why would he need time away from you?? Isn't being apart what got you into this mess in the first place?? faintYou two need to be together!

And what the heck is this about your H telling you if he's hanging with women?? How can this even be a possibility??

LL, you know what your posts are saying to me? They're saying that neither one of you is really interested in making any effort at all to rebuild your M.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

WW27 #2445657 11/23/10 07:13 AM
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However, he thinks that as a couple you don't need to spend every spare minute together. There should be some agreed time apart.


I don't understand. Do you mean that neither of you work and you're together all day and night?



D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

WW27 #2445683 11/23/10 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by LL123
However, he thinks that as a couple you don't need to spend every spare minute together. There should be some agreed time apart.

Hopefully, you will help him get over this wrongheaded notion. Spending the nights apart and having separate leisure lives is a disaster for marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2445684 11/23/10 09:18 AM
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Hopefully, you will help him get over this wrongheaded notion. Spending the nights apart and having separate leisure lives is a disaster for marriage.

Another thing, LL, and I can only speak for my marriage, but: FWH and I are forced to be apart because we work during the day. That's our 'time apart.' We don't like it. We want to be together. Isn't that how it should be?


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

WW27 #2445756 11/23/10 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by LL123
I did read what you said.

But there is not much I can do. I am trying to meet his needs. His top 5 needs were (not in the order he listed): affection, respect, time to himself, honesty/openness and conversation.

An emotional need is something that causes you to fall in love with the person who supplies it for you. Time to himself may be some sort of "need," but it is not a Marriage Builders emotional need.

Emotional needs are things you need in order to fall in love, not things you need to stay alive or things you need in order to be "emotionally healthy."


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
WW27 #2445767 11/23/10 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by LL123
They don't have professional credentials, they are just his siblings. One of them has been married for 20 years in a stable and loving relationship.

Anyhow, I will take to my husband about these things. But at the same time I can't push him to do what he doesn't want to or doesn't feel is comfortable for him. We do spend 10 hours of time together doing things together at hand such (conversation, recreation and affection, sex not as much..only been 1-2x a week). But I guess we'll up the undivided attention by some more. However, he thinks that as a couple you don't need to spend every spare minute together. There should be some agreed time apart.

10 hours is not enough. The Marriage Builders plan calls for 15 for a good marriage, 20+ for a rocky marriage.

And none of these figures is even close to "every spare minute together."

Did you know that for years Dr. Harley built a great marriage with his wife while working obsessive hours each week managing his clinic? All it took was the right amount and type of time with his wife each week. It was nowhere near the amount of time he spent working.

Personally, I'd rather spend that time doing something else besides working, but the point is that 15 hours a week still leaves room for a lot of other things.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2445770 11/23/10 01:57 PM
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15 hours a week can still leave you 50 hours a week to do what you want. So this is hardly "every spare moment" together.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_attn.html

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
You have 168 hours every week (24x7) to schedule for something. I highly recommend 8 hours of sleep a night, so that leaves 112 waking hours. Getting ready for the day, and going to bed at night may require, say, 12 hours, and work plus commute may take another 50 hours. That leaves 50 more hours to spend doing what you value most, and 15 of those hours should be dedicated to maintaing a passionate and fulfilling marriage.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
WW27 #2445774 11/23/10 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by LL123
They don't have professional credentials, they are just his siblings. One of them has been married for 20 years in a stable and loving relationship.

Anyhow, I will take to my husband about these things. But at the same time I can't push him to do what he doesn't want to or doesn't feel is comfortable for him. We do spend 10 hours of time together doing things together at home and such (conversation, recreation and affection, sex not as much..only been 1-2x a week). But I guess we'll up the undivided attention by some more. However, he thinks that as a couple you don't need to spend every spare minute together. There should be some agreed time apart.

Dr. Harley says he has no problem with couples doing some recreational things apart from each other, under the following conditions:

* FIRST, the couple needs to be each other's favorite recreational companions. If they are not, then they should be spending their time becoming each other's favorite recreational companions by following this program.
* The couple must be following the policy of undivided attention (Give each other your undivided attention for 15 hours each week, 20 if the marriage is troubled, meeting the emotional needs of affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment). If the schedule doesn't allow for 15 hours of UA time, then it certainly shouldn't allow for independent recreational activities.
* The independent activities must be subject to the Policy of Joint Agreement: neither one of you will engage in an activity if the spouse is not enthusiastic. For example, she may not like him going to play basketball but may be fine with him playing golf.

But all of this is for AFTER you've built a romantic relationship.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2445805 11/23/10 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by markos
But all of this is for AFTER you've built a romantic relationship.

BUT....the separate activity should NOT involve spending the night apart. Her H says his favorite activity is to spend the weekends/nights with his friend or boss, and that sometimes girls join them. [but he tells her when girls join them]

Frankly, I this she is being gaslighted and this is all a ruse to cover up an affair or a swinging single lifestyle.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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