JRHarris, I agree with everything you said and can even add to it. You pretty much described my first 10 years in AA so I know its true. I don't believe they used her, though. She did those things enthuiastically. We are compulsive individuals and I have no doubt that AA just became her new compulsion. She wouldn't have devoted that kind of time and energy if didn't love it.

Your wife did all this stuff willingly and did not have to do it. AA does not require that kind of devotion from any person. A person can volunteer to give rides and make coffee, but it is entirely voluntary. Nor do they require EVER that we use our own money for anything. That is not an AA thing. If I EVER paid for anything out of my own pocket, I was reimbursed by the treasurer.

Dr Harley touches on AA in his book Defending Traditonal Marriage and speaks about how many divorces take place AFTER the alcoholic joins AA.

My Journey, I sent the link.

Isobella, it's nice to hear from the other side of the fence - er- street!

Fred and MelodyLane, I especially didn't mean to put you in the position of "defending" AA. And you both seem to have a really good handle on using the positive aspects of AA. But you also recognize the sickness in AA. That's refreshing. Fred, I had never heard the comparison of the Elder and the Bleeding Deacon. Makes sense.

MY POINT ABOUT AA IS...I didn't know any of the sickness aspect before my husband joined AA. In the many yahoo groups that are full of ex AA people I learned of the sickness and was stunned. It was actually ME that led my husband to a 12 step program unknowingly. Knowing his personality, his failure to be held responsible and accountable, had I known this, I would not have celebrated his entry, but pushed him towards a program that EMPOWERED his life. He was a perfect pigeon....depressed and broken over the economy, dealing with mid life issues, lost! He and our marriage didn't stand a chance once he walked in to what appears to be a bottom feeder group!

I offer this in the spirit of lively discussion. I am not asking you to defend your choice of sobriety. I used to be Catholic and so I know what it is like to be challenged because of the sickness rather than the goodness of the group.

Fred, quite frankly, it was the letter to the wives that first set my stomach turning. First, Bill insisted HE write it rather than Lois. I'm not going to reprint the letter but I did find it rather condescending and chauvenistic. I just reread it, and I don't see anywhere in there that he says you're supposed to go to the Love Bank and expect that your spouse has put anything in. It pretty much tells the wives that they take the back seat to their husband's ways. Not the fulfullment of marriage that MB builds at all. Same with the family afterwards. I am sorry, I wasn't diseased, and I didn't need recovery! I needed my husband to grow up and put on his big boy pants. The children and I have recovered just fine without a program...again, I respect those that do Alanon the right way, but there can be sickness in those groups too.

The BB is in my opinion outdated, as is the Letter to the Wives, as many in AA are women...two have just posted.

The other issue that needs to be addressed is the autonomy amoung the groups and the fact that nobody is supposed to get in other people's or groups business. I don't think that is sound advice anymore. EVIL FLOURISHES WHEN GOOD MEN DO NOTHING!

Let's take it off AA for a moment as it appears to be a hot button, which is not my intent. Let's pick the Girl Scouts.
Now they don't get involved in each other's groups either. One group wants sewing for a craft, the other beading. But say child abuse, sexual abuse, predatory behavior existed? If your daughter was involved, would you not expect the National Girl Scouts to respond?

There actually is a wide spread movement in California as well as in the UK, of AA members working to change this system. Their biggest frustration to my understanding, is the court system mandating sexual predators and criminals into AA. I work with these folks to change AA. But the second biggest frustration is the refusal of the heirarchy and members of AA to even admit that this behavior exists....say what?

Remember I said I USED to be Catholic? I couldn't stand by and watch the Vatican deny the molestations any longer. I couldn't stand seeing 4 parish priests disappear only to later uncover a transgression on their part. I couldn't explain to my children our participation in a group that turned a blind eye to the transgressions of their leaders.

From a marriage standpoint, I wish I had known. I lost my husband, my children lost their father to AA sickness. Quite frankly, he wasn't a big bad drunk our whole married life...he DID turn to alcohol in the midst of his depression about 6 months before he realized he needed help. But when he went for it, he got swallowed up. My grown son, a Naval Officer wrote this to him. "Dad, when I look into your eyes, I do not even recognize who you are. When I hear your voice and the words you use, I do not understand who you have become. I just know this, I miss you and am very sad that you have chosen the program and your new girlfriend over your own children."

That's where I was coming from. Take Care, M

A.A. DOES require one to "pledge allegiance to the group before your marriage!"

It is the 1st Tradition that is usually chanted at the beginning of every meeting:

"Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon AA unity."

They make you put "common welfare" of the group before everything including your family. They want you to adopt them as the New Family and get rid of your Old Family.

JR, that is not what that tradition says at all. It is not asking us to put the common welfare of the group before my family. It is explained here:

here

I am trying to get my wife back. She has decided to associate herself with a very undesirable crowd of people that I believe have warped her mind. I am concerned because she hangs around a group of people who, as a vast majority, are divorced, have major legal and financial problems. When she needs help with our relationship she goes to them for advice.

In the past 5 years she has become close friends with ex-prostitutes, violent criminals, drug addicts, convicted thieves and many other very undesirable people. As the saying goes "If you hang around in the barbershop long enough you are going to get a haircut". They claim to be reformed, however I know differently because over the years many of them have gotten in major trouble again.

Should I just call it quits? Should I give up all hope that she will stop hanging around these people? Should I give up over two decades of marriage?

Or should I isolate them from her the same way they did to me? My wife has OCD and I really believe she is being used.

I am torn between bowing out of this discussion and letting it "die" (at least for me), or continue posting. That you're reading this suggests that for the time being, I'm going to continue...

There is a woman member of my A.A. home group (an open Big Book study). She is not an alcoholic but rather a 34 year member of Al-Anon. That she hasn't had a drink in that long is incidental. She does not self-identify as an alcoholic.

She brings a refreshing perspective to our study, and also has issues with the chapter, "To Wives."

Not only do we study the content of the Big Book, but we study the context as well. We understand that when the book was written (original publication date: 1939), society was quite different than it is today. Women had only gained the right to vote a scant 19 years earlier. They were not a significant force in the workplace. Modern conveniences such as television, cell phones and mass communication were non-existent.

Despite its title, we believe the chapter really addresses the alcoholic, as do all the others. Their intent is to reveal to the alcoholic the impact their drinking has had on others. Wives, employers, families all have chapters devoted to them. The chapters are literary vehicles, not stated fact.

However, every time I read them, I recognize me the alcoholic. The book's primary audience.

The Twelve and Twelve (Twelve Steps & Twelve Traditions) is much the same. The historical examples given time and time again are Bill W.'s own. But they are not presented as such, because the intent is to focus on "principles, not personalities."

However, MelodyLane made a very good point that I would like to reiterate in my own words: A.A. is not a bastion of mental health. There is a saying, "we're all here because we're not all there." Another running joke I've heard is that two subjects not easily covered in an A.A. meeting are financial stability and healthy relationships. It's no coincidence that addiction is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-IV) of Mental Disorders.

Some of the things I've read in this thread are truly disturbing. I've never heard any meeting started by reciting the First Tradition. In my experience, most A.A. members head for the doors when the Traditions are mentioned because "the Steps are about recovery and the Traditions are just politics."

Having a sponsor of the opposite sex is almost universally frowned upon (I've heard women advise other women, "men will try to grab your @ss, women will try to save it").

A.A. doesn't require one to stop drinking. Tradition Three states, "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking" (emphasis mine). The big book makes no claim that A.A. is for every alcoholic, as well. Or that is has the only solution. It even goes so far as to suggest that one continue to drink if one is not sure of their own diagnosis.

But most of all, there are no rules in A.A. Except one: Rule 62: "Don't take yourself so d@mn seriously."

I went to AA to stop drinking and get a better life there is no other option here if i want to stop drinking. i didnt go because i had a problem with my marriage it became a problem in AA my husband said i would be better drinking.I gaind a dozen other problems because of AA having to watch your back all the time for thirteen steppers,I wasnt mental when i went in, i had a drink problem i had to wash my brain because i had a disease and was powerless over alcohol i had to reprogram my brain i became as nuts as the person sitting next to me spouting out slogans its just plain daft.My friend had a female to female sponser her poor husband was on a rubber band and kept gettig kicked out off his own home because he didnt get it and he was affecting her sobriety advice taken from a woman who has 27years sobriety,2 failed marriages and hasnt spoke to her children for 20years,yeah i want what shes got NOT maybe the 27years sodriety she lives and breath the program but has nothing else.These people are not qualified to mess with other peoples lives like that.I am so happy to have my family back love them all.My father was in the masions they talk crap too!my dad done a couple off meetings to 1. to support me 2.he to has a drink problem.He never went back.

Im sorry if i have upset anyone but that is my experience it has left me with a bitter taste in my mouth.I know some people need this group but i dont, i really dislike the methods used as a program off recovery.

I have no first hand experience with AA; however, I am always wary when someone blames a person, group or ideology for the downfall of their marriage.

I believe all of those things happened. I believe there are bad people in AA. I also believe their are bad people in churches and synagogues. There are bad mothers in the PTA and bad fathers coaching baseball.

We are responsible for our own boundaries. An example was giving of 90 meetings in 90 days. Nothing was said about 3 meetings a day and accepting calls at all hours of the night. That was a boundary issue.

I would imagine bad marriages and unemployed people would be prevelant at an AA meeting. It is the nature of the beast. That isn't to say those people don't deserve a chance.

There are people who have lost their spouses because they have become too religious, or a workaholic, or too philanthropic....it happens. It isn't the institution....it is the person's inability to balance.

Bingo!

Exactly what I was thinking. It's a choice, just like other choices in life.

I've had two experiences with AA. First, my own experience. I got involved with some serious partying back in my early 30s. Believe it or not, the legal field is a hotbed for that kind of thing. Lots of camaraderie and commiserating. Any occasion calls for a drink. I got in over my head and ended up checking myself into a rehab for 30 days.

Part of that included AA every day. I resented being forced to go. It reminded me of being forced to go to church when I was a kid. I saw people people work the program and get better. I saw some "hook up" and have "relationships" (some married, some not), and some (like me) who were just doing the time. I never worked the program completely but I'm okay. I don't drink at all and haven't for a long time.

The second time was when my DH was first coming out of his craziness. One of the first things he did was go find an AA group. I admit that I was resentful because of his meetings and because he made some friends that I really didn't care for. I thought it was going to turn out like it did during our false recovery. Thank God it didn't.

He didn't attend long, and it did help him get started on the road to recovery. He didn't remain in contact with the people he met in AA. Occasionally he will run into someone from AA and say hi, but that's about it. The thing is, my husband could never understand SOME of the people he met in AA who ended up making AA their god.

During our false recovery (before AA) he and I went to this weekend deal called "The Road". It was there that he met some new friends who encouraged him in his waywardness. It didn't take much and he was gone again. They all bonded and called each other all the time. Eventually, they all started going out drinking together.

I guess my point is that you only get out of any program what you put into it, including AA. There are good and bad people any where. Some are looking for a new target, some are stuck in their victimhood, and some are for real.

In the end though, it's our own individual choices and boundaries as to how we let ANYTHING interfere with our marriages and families.

A little common sense helps too.

Oposo, is that your situation Dr Harley is discussing on the radio today? He is discussing alcoholics who go through treatment.

Sunnydaze, I totally agree with you that people have a responsibility to keep their lives in balance. But most people that join a church or synagogue or the PTA don't enter it sick, scared,and broken. There is a medical term named PAWS or Post Alcohol Withdrawal Syndrome, which describes the inability of a person to function clearly in the first months or year of sobriety. I'm not sure that my husband or JR's wife made the "choice" to be immersed in the group to the exclusion of the responsibilities of their daily life. It seems that if our spouses had found Melodylane or Fred's groups, the advice they might have been given would have helped them attain balance. That's what is supposed to be, people helping people get out of a problem situation...not getting deeper into a problematic life.

Darn, I missed that program. I'll have to find the link and listen. I have written to Dr Harley but only to question how often he sees this in his practice. Who know's though, maybe he reads these threads. Thanks for the heads up!

The show will replay until 12:00 cst today: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=12

After that, you can download it on the archives section. But he does talk about this very issue on his show.

What were you doing while this was going on???

There are good AA groups and bad AA groups and know an outsider would not even have a clue.

Instilling family values-Repairing a M - A sponsor giving Marital advise is not part of the Program of AA. Its nowhere in the first 164 pages of the Big Book. This is not part of the program of AA. I challenge you to show it to me.

As a result of working the Program of AA a M may be saved-ammends may be made.
Simply put your H got involved with a sick group. The Fellowship your H went to calls itself an AA group-which they are entitled to do. My measure is do they adhere to the original information found in the 164 pages. If they don;t then it is Bull sheet.

MB's could become a sick group in a real hurry if Vets didn't jump in on some of these threads and guide the person through DR H's advice the right way. Point to articles-show what Dr H said here or there. Occasionally moderators jump in.

The trouble with any or most groups out in the real world is that a Moderator is not present to correct misapplication of the information that is to be used for the group. In AA at some groups there are no Vets there to moderate or draw the group back to the original principles of the program.

I don't represent AA but I am a long time member.

The lapse of misinformation with the Program of AA-(This the first 164 pages of the Big Book) is great and wide out to the Fellowship-the meetings..

If a group is not using and adhereing to the Program then it is a sick group. They can call it a AA group or anything they want to.

AA's singleness of purpose is to help the alcoholic that still suffers. Thats it. No dues-no have tos. No group demands. I do not have to do anything that I don't want to do. He11 theres no CEO or GM?? How does that work??

nESRE

From a Psychology Today article:

Ironically, the months following intensive treatment can put more strain on a family than years of chronic alcohol abuse. About 25 percent of marriages break up within a year of one partner's joining AA, says Barbara McCrady, Ph.D., clinical director of the Rutgers Center for Alcohol Studies. She cites three reasons:

o Traditional AA protocol calls for meetings -- lots of them. "Spouses often say, 'First I lost him to alcohol, now I've lost him to AA,'" says McCrady. The alcoholic's reliance on fellow program members, rather than family, can foster considerable resentment.

o Some families have for years blamed all of their difficulties on the alcoholic's addiction. Only when the drinker is no longer drinking do they realize that long-established alcohol problems do not just vanish overnight.

Read the full article here:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199409/back-the-drink?page=5

Oposo, I spent over 18 years working with addictions counselors in a treatment center. This does not provide me with "credentials," but it has given me a lot of experience.

Psychologists call addiction (alcoholism is an addiction) a "bio-psycho-social disease." More simply, it is a "family disease."

In my years, this is what I have seen: when one person in a marriage goes into recovery, the family dynamic changes. Relationships either get much better or much worse. They never stay the same!

The counselors with whom I've worked have unanimously recommended to spouses of their patients that they begin attending Al-Anon meetings.

It's been my experience (and the Big Book addresses this) that without getting support for their own recovery, the family of the addict often responds with unrealistic expectations.

If you ask me, I think the 25% figure is actually a bit low.

WOW
Only 75 years or so and phychology is catching up
nESRE

Fred, I do not subscribe to the diseased family concept. I was not an enabler and I don't have any drunkalogue stories since my husbands alcoholism was a single binge period toward the end of our marriage, I suspect as a result of depression and of guilt over a brief affair I suspect he had prior to joining AA as well as the one in AA. I tried Alanon but found I think more like Dr Harley in this article http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

What some describe as codie, I call compassionate interdependence.

Nesre, I did educate myself and that's when I learned that AA was not the only way, nor was it the right program for my husband's personality....you can't give him the out of "leaving the rest." Obviously he left a lot of the important stuff out and skirted right to the feel good of replacing one addiction with two. Meetings and Sex.

Please don't quote the Big Book to me. If you want to debate the glories of AA there are plenty of sites that do entertain many spirited pro vs. Anti AA discussions. That's not what this board is for. I would be happy to direct you to these other forums.

At least 2 of us had spouses that got lost in the program, be it the groups fault, their own, or both. Mine had an affair. And touting a Big Book written by a man with less than admirable behavior is not helpful. When Bill died the majority of his estate went to his mistress and not his loyal wife Lois. I find both "To the Wives" and "The Family Afterward" to be outdated, chauvenistic and personally insulting. It's a love busting rendition of what really happened in my family. Neither myself nor my children were sick or nuerotic, but all healthy well adjusted members of society that were abandoned by the very man that was supposed to love and support us. Bill W knows nothing of my family.

I listened to Dr and Joyce on the radio program Monday. It WAS my email they were discussing. They unequivocally said co-ed meetings are disastrous to marriages. AA has had a long known problem with 13th stepping. They also discussed putting more into the recovery groups members love bank than the love bank at home. Fred, I suspect that you are entirely correct that the statistics of divorce in AA are actually much higher, unfortunately they don't divulge this information at the central office in New York. That's why marriage busters has a concurrent treatment and marriage therapy program for addicts. Both must survive for the family to be whole.