I still think that you should talk to his dad before she does. Otherwise she will give her twisted version of situation mainly focused on YOUR mistakes.


She still thinks that her affair was somehow justifiable and she will present this opinion to her dad also.

To clarify. Dad is coming over here. So we will both be present.
There is hardly anyone to expose to that doesn't know. Turns out just about all her family and friends knew except me. Very protective. I am glad that Dad will be "in the loop" now along with Mom, brother and sister who already knew. (My God!)

Right now, she is still angry with me. Punishing me. (WTH!) But you all told me that would happen.

She is mad that any of them should feel shame and guilt. Bunch of babies. Oh it makes me so angry but I am maintaining composure. I am angry here on this forum, and with my therapist and with my sisters.

Her apology isn't that good. And she admits it. She asked, "what else do you need to heal?" This morning I said, "I need some remorse, some guilt, some shame... I understand you are angry at me. I was told to expect that. But I was also told underneath it you want me to be strong for you. To fight for you / for our family."

I am struggling to understand her family and friends. Enabling. Love you no matter what. You can do anything and we support you. No judgment. No compass. I am confused by them.

Stretch just let exposure do it's job, you want her to be mad, if having an affair was okay she wouldn't be mad would she. Even she thinks it's wrong, and now having to be accountable for her decisions makes her self reflect and she is angry with herself as well, you didn't do this, you are just trying to protect your family.
Stretch her family loves her, they might not agree with her, but feel obiligated to stand by her, when exposure happened for my husband, not one person on his side contacted me, we have been together for 27 years, loyality is a strong bond, that hurt a lot......but don't let it bother you, they will respect you for being the strong one and the one fighting for what is right, even if they don't say it or show it.
you love your wife and family and anything that comes your way is worth it,
keep your eye on the bigger picture a life with a woman you love and marriage you both will cherish.

Jessi - that helped tremendously. Her family and friends probably have a load of respect and love for me.

This morning, she used the words, "Remorse, guilt" as well as "sad, angry, hurt"

She was very open with the details. Nothing I could verify was covered up. Things I did not know about were volunteered.

Guys, you know what really hurts? Hearing about how ENs were being met by this man. They didn't even have a PA (even though she begged and wanted it) he rejected her.
But it hurts to hear how much she loved talking to him. The obsessive, infatuation in-love state was there. The oooh ahhh googly eyes at a guitar performer and the alcohol too.
But she just loved talking with him. The way he listened.

Any advice? Probably almost time to move my thread to Recovery group, eh?

How much does it hurt to feel partly to blame? How much does it hurt to open your eyes and see the EN's you were not providing? How much does it hurt to see another man so easily stepping in and making her happy?

By the way. This is probably pretty big. But she said, "I am feeling this tremedous release of longing. My thoughts about "him" are suddenly evaporating. They were angonizingly slowly disappearing over the last year. So painfully slow to grieve losing OM. But today, they are rushing away."

Is that good? Is that BS? I think its true.

It hurts a lot. This kind of self-reflection is not easy, especially when you're already faced with the pain of betrayal. You want to wallow in your own hurt and start to heal from that, but now you're being forced to look at your own shortcomings on top of it??! Brutal. It really is.
BUT keep in mind it's also 100% her decision to have had this affair. People's needs go unmet all the time--for weeks, months, years, and most of them don't have affairs. You can be blamed for not meeting her needs, like the rest of us failed to do (otherwise we probably wouldn't be in this forum!) but you absolutely CANNOT be blamed for ONE SHRED of her actions. She is completely responsible for this affair.

Still...it hurts. I'm not over it yet. I don't know how long it takes to get over it. For me, when I start thinking about the painful details, I stop, take a deep breath, and remember... I am human. I did my best. I did not deserve this.


I don't think it's entirely BS. Affairs thrive in the shadows. Exposure is so effective because it shatters the fantasy world the WS is living in. My WS's feelings subsided really quickly once reality set in.

Keep in mind, there WILL be relapses in her feelings--withdrawal--and it won't always be this easy for her. She might even say "I can't do this I'm not in love with you I'm in love with such-and-such a person!!" in the next day or two. It's a rollercoaster, and you just have to remember she's in the fog and doesn't even know how to sort out her own feelings. But her saying what she did, is a very good sign.

Hang in there. You're still on the rollercoaster ride, but you're gonna make it through.

Wow.

Stuck - you have earned some of your reward in heaven for that post. Thanks brother!

I swear to God I will pay it back to some other poor, hurting husband in the future!

Just to plant a seed for later, take cues from this on what you need to be doing in the future for her. Sounds like admiration, conversation, affection are all her top needs. You need to be thinking about this down the line in recovery.

We stood in the garage and told Daddy together. He was pretty busted up. So was I.
This should help have an effect on FWW. Break through the fog now that her Dad knows.
(Her brother and sister knew all along. Her Mom knew a year ago) So exposing to people close to her was hard. They all knew except me. Quite a support group.

But I am glad we told Dad together and we did it this way. This helps affair proof the marriage. Dad knows. He will talk to her and the other two about this and that matters.

I also know my part. I did not meet ENs. I said I wasn't always as best as I could have been for your litle girl sir. I am sad she went outside the marriage. I am hurt and betrayed. Please hold us accountable. We need your help too.

He was impressed we were on the right path.

But she admitted to feeling ashamed she had less remorse and guilt. She didn't cry as hard as her Dad and me.
Using the words remorse and guilt. But in a fog and can't feel it right now. I need to wait. Right?
It does not help that her support network's goal is to make her feel better ("you didn't do something all that bad.... just an EA.") Ummm. She won't heal my heart with their enabling. I think they are in a fog too. Because they were complicit and have to face some guilt too.

But let's avoid adjectives. How bad was the EA?
"Not that bad." "Really bad." "Fall on a big sword." "Fall on a little sword." Who cares? No adjectives.
Let's just use facts. She cheated. She kissed another man. She lied to sneak away and see him. She pursued him. She asked him to have an affiar. She wanted to start an affair. She wanted him to "come home with her / sleep with her / call her / date her / meet with her. She did all this outside of her marriage , lying to her husband. But telling her two friends and her siblings. She broke it off Nov 09. Snuck away to see him one time in Aug 10. She says she was sad because he rejected her and broke her heart.

No adjectives there. Just information. Is that "not all that bad" "really bad" .... Who cares? It is what it is. Just waiting for the fog to clear and the remorse and guilt to set in.

Tell me. When does the fog clear? When do you get deep remorse? I have heavy, heavy deep remorse for not filling her important EN's for many years. Filled with guilt and regret.

I think that listening her stories about OM is something that should be avoided at all cost. It has nothing to do with learning to meet her ENs. It can be done totally without "this was how OM met my needs" component. Praising OM in your presence is disrespectful and it will damage your further recovery by depleting your love bank. And it is some sick form of contact with OM for your WW.

IF there is total NC then fog can clear in months. You will get the remorse after fog is cleared, there is nothing you can do about it right now.

In addition, please stop accusing yourself that she had an affair. I can assure you that I had the same mindset initially. But lack of meeting ENs has nothing to do with the affair, it was her poor boundaries that helped her to have the affair. There was other choices than have an affair, thus the affair is 100% her choice and responsibility. The faster you recognize that the faster you can restore your self-confidence and by that start a real recovery.

No, I don't think you should move this thread to Recovery. Too early. Be very cautious.

Stuck,

Recovery is only evidenced by time that has gone by and having actions reveal intentions. This will not happen overnight. Like a drug addict, she will have flashbacks that remind her of the A. It will cause huge mood swings.

You have a rollercoaster ride as well: As the healing begins, you will be happy one moment and in tears the next. One moment, you will want to cuddle with her, and the next you will wonder if it is all worth it.

These emotions are very strong and make you feel like a leaf blowing in the wind. You must focus on the long term goal of getting back to a loving, safe relationship. You can get there by not acting on the crazy emotions that will surface every day.

Eventually over time, the strong feeling of emotions associated with all of this will lessen, and your head will prevail over your heart. You have altered your course, and it has the potential to be the result you were after. Proceed with both eyes wide open.

Please help me with more words of wisdom about how its not my fault and they cannot be angry with me.

She gets to sit and have coffee with girlfriends on Saturday. I said I honestly have trust issues. (She misunderstood... as if they would go chase men at lunch.) No, I said, I have to get over their betrayal and lies too. I am uncomfortable with you and the girlfriends talking about what happened and spinning interpretations.

Right now, there is a thread of thought in their conversations about how: So much of the A is my fault. And because it was EA its not that big of a deal. This is really dangerous stuff.

SOme quotes:
"We are proud of your husband for recognizing 14 years of marriage led to this."
"You didn't do anything all that bad."

Neither of these help us to heal.

I want to send her with a note to her friends. In essence, all efforts focused against being angry at me, helping WW feel better about herself and what she did are not helping us heal. I would like them to help us by helping her discover and learn how to love me back, and figure out what we need to heal. We all have healing as the goal right? So efforts to minimize, make her feel better about the A, get angry with me... they don't help. They don't affiar proof.

Now, I believe that under Plan A -- she should eliminate all enabling activities, such as deep association with girlfriends that were enabling. Well, that won't happen. She will continue to be close to her brother, sister and grilfriends. And they should feel shame and some culpability. But that is a debate right now (Only 3 days since exposure. We can't sovle it all at once) But there will never be total removal from her support group.

If her friends are not a support group for your marriage, they are not a support group, period. If they are swaying your WW away from healing and strengthening your M they are misguided at best and need to be removed from your circle of friends.

I doubt that writing to them and chastizing them because they don't agree with your marital philosophy will do much more than alienate them and make them even less likely to come down in favor of your M.

Like you said, you're pretty early into recovery. (You are in recovery, correct? Not Plan A.) Don't try to rebuild the entire dam all at once. Yes, the 'friends' are not friends of your M and will need to go. But don't slash and burn your way through recovery.

In my sitch there was a male friend of ours who knew about H's A. He didn't encourage it, but he didn't discourage it, either. That's all it took for me, that he didn't discourage it. That male friend is no longer in our circle. He was not a friend to our marriage. No, I didn't chop him off the Friends List on d-day, but it did happen shortly after recovery began.

Thank you. I need patience.

We can't slash and burn our way through recovery. Thank you.
They are also in the fog is my mantra. They also have guilt about their affairs is my suspicion. In a way, my wife has been making a lot of new friends this past year. She might subconciously be doing that. Its healthier certainly.

My sister and brother in law are mad as hell. We've know these close friends for 18 years. And they want to kill them. The point about "did not discourage" is right on. That being said, from the email snooping I have hard evidence that one of the friends definitley "encouraged". Its really not debatable. Black & White evidence. But its a debate that does not need to be had right now. With time.

These women are godparents to our children. They are like aunts. Like family. Just as I need recovery with my wife and healing, they are family and need recovery and healing with them too. Remorse will come when the fog lifts.

I am going Sunday morning to sit and have breakfast with my two sisters who have much clearer heads. Big step for me.

Stretch,

As far as dealing with your wife's friends, you cannot control or influence what they think or believe by sending them notes. They will simply see this as your attempt to control your wife by controlling them - which, in a roundabout way, is what is happening.

It would never work, anyway.

What has to happen is that your wife


needs to control

herself.

Until your WW grasps the full understanding of how a marriage works, how her "little" affair actually was not so "little", and how her way of thinking is deeply damaging the relationship now and into the future, nothing you say or do with regard to her friends will impact anything. They are "on her side", because they do not understand or grasp how a marriage works EITHER.

You control only one person - that is YOU. Your work is to work on yourself. Your wife's understanding of how her affair impacted the relationship will come

as you change your relationship with her
as you work towards your understanding of how the marriage system works
as you improve your ability to set and enforce and improve marital boundaries
as you improve meeting her emotional needs
as you improve her understanding of her own needs AND YOURS
as the two of you start using the O&H system
and
as the two of you begin using POJA as a working system together in the marriage.


Once the marriage gets into gear with a better foundation, your wife will begin to grasp what she did - and what she HAS and nearly lost.


The fog has been in place for a long time - her last contact was actually still just last August, so that fantasy flame was active then, and in her head still fanned only recently.

Exposure makes people uncomfortable, angry, and they will defend themselves. That's what her friends are doing. They don't "get it", and they won't - until your WIFE stands up for you. It will only be when your WIFE returns (and NOT the WW you have right now) and says to her friends that they were ALL wrong, herself included, and reclaims that history of the marriage that she has so conveniently rewritten for the time being (all to justify her ridiculous behavior).

Follow the MB plan. Your WIFE will return......sooner or later.....and she will ultimately defend you. Don't worry about those other people. Some will end up being friends to the marriage, others will not. Let them sort themselves out.

SB

Last contact turns out to be Christmas. She told me tonight she continued to write him silly emails and he would not write back. But even after my awakening Sep 1 and hard work on the marriage started, she has not let go of him. She told me she wrote him an email on Christmas Eve.

Tonight, I listened for a long, long time trying to understand how we got to the terrible place. She said she has so many deep scars from the marriage. I hurt her and hurt her for so many years. She gets through it by learning from her counselor and friends that I was just clueless. Bad training. No maliciousness. I never tried to hurt her. But my words, responses, actions.... always ended up hurting her. She hated talking to me. Couldn't stand me. So (I think we agree) that she is responsible for the affiar, I must own the culpability for where she was in so much pain when the affair started. And how even this month and last month I still revery to bad behaviors that hurt for so long.

The fog is deep. She thinks of him and feels happy. She contacted him in Dec and on a very bad day about a week and a half ago when she admits "hubby was being a perfect superman all day with the family" she sat down to write OM an email again.

Yes, I have emotional inventory to take. She was in deep pain in the marriage. I contend that I was clueless. But she did try to tell me over and over, year after year. I was a blockhead. But she gets into a place where no good can be seen. Some of the marriage history is conveniently rewritten. Some of her friends hear the monstrification of me. I am not the only reason she was depressed and unhappy. Could I be?

But I am deeply, deeply remorseful for every bad thing I have ever done. I can't think of any real grudges I hold for things bad that she has done. Maybe Me, the monster, didn't care to notice?

Stretch,

My former WW said the exact same thing. Exactly. I accept that I was not appreciative of her. I will admit that. But now, 4 months after NC, she wholeheartedly admits that she made a grave error and she is extremely remorseful. I did not cause the A. She did.

We both are in a good place now, and I look back and wonder if this was all a bad dream. Just keep working on your relationship with your W, and you will likely find that she will be the biggest defender of your M. It's really hard to fathom the 180 my wife did, after being an alien who had no common sense just a few months ago.

Stretch,

Just a quick comment...or, observation. You made mistakes. Check. Your WW made mistakes. Check. What marriage can claim these 2 facts to not be true? Um, none. What makes a man (in this case) is what you, and only you do about them. YOU are manning up, my friend. Take pride in that. Not dorrmatting up ("I was soo bad.."), but taking control of the situation, correcting what you are able to, and laying the foundation for your WW to do the same. And, ultimately to do what you both will do to recover. Not, "can". Will.

That's all you can do now (follow the PLAN which is not small task), so let's take "bad" out of the vocabulary when reviewing your history. Mistakes? Sure. Lots, tons, cargo planes full? Maybe (oh, c'mon). But, NOT an affair. That is where "bad" can be applied.

I don't suggest that you do this, but I just read your first post, and that was only 1/30. You were all over the place (understandably!!) Think about that. You read, you heard, you did, and now your posts are miles away from that first one. YOU are doing something and have a plan, and it's working toward progress. Just progress...and, however crappy you feel now, and though you have a very rough road ahead, you're 100% more composed than you were just a couple weeks ago.

For that, you have my admiration (like so many others). You are doing great. Hang in there. The folks here are incredible, aren't they?

You are not a bad husband, Stretch, but rather a husband that made some mistakes along the way that you see now and are willing to change for you so that you and others (kids) will gain benefit from, right? WW or not. And, I hope with a FWW one day.


Take care!