I totally agree with Surfer88.

Please, please do not fall the "I must have been REALLY REALLY bad husband and man because my W had an affair" routine. A wayward would very much like you to think so. All she says right know is colored by trying to find a justification her own bad behaviour and should not be taken as solid truth. I guess you made mistakes but I seriously doubt that these were something so major like your WWs so called friends and counselors trying to preach.

You have taken the road for improving yourself - there are not many people out there who are able to do that. Be proud.

Great advice. She does tell me she owns her actions. She says "remorse, shame, guilt."
The more I listen and create a "safe, respectful, trusting" place for her to be O&H the better it gets. She said, "Who would have thought we would be talking this much on day 4?"

SO she goes to a place where she needs to really lay on the marriage history of hurt. She withstood some emotional neglect and painful words for years. I was dumb and clueless. She hangs on because she truly believes its unintentional. There are mean and bad people in the world and I am not one of them. My words and actions can hurt unintentionally. And I understand all of that. And its very true.

My little sister also has depression and she is a great resource I did not appreciate before. She says, "She remembers past marriage stories through the lens of current depression. Its the opposite of rose colored glasses."

Your advice up above is telling me that the fog does lift. The remorse, shame and guilt get worse as I improve the marriage.

Right now the emotional fantasy is not gone. She is still having the EA in her mind. She cannot promise NC. She emailed him Christmas Eve. (he never responds) But every six weeks she gets the urge to send an email. ANd she said last night, "I cannot promise NC." That led to some pain and anger. But she meant it like, "I am a drug addict trying to reform."

NC does not exist on day 4. There is no contact today. But no agreement to NC. This hurts.

From my big sister:

That is what I meant by "are your shoulders big enough?"
Can you take the deflection and stand stalwart and know the 180 is coming?
Can you continue to work on your behavior even though, at times, it will feel futile and that you've already lost?
Do you have the patience to give her the space she needs to make the transference at her own pace?
I think you do and your sisters are here for you. It sounds like your online friends are there for you, too.
And one day, you will be the "Seasoned Survivor"

Stretch - nice question from your sister about are your shoulders big enough!

Here's something to go with that - don't worry about if your shoulders are big enough because if it's too much - the rest will slide down and fall off!! Let God handle the rest.

I'm so glad you're finding those unrecognized sources of help in your sisters. Family is great!

So about NC. Talking to a friend today. He can't believe I am not more angry and that I have no considered kicking her out.

Last night, she could not commit to NC. Well, I think we cannot even take step one in recovery if she still has one foot in the affair fantasy. I need to hear: "I am so sorry. I will never do it again. Yes, I agree, I will never send him an email again. The affair is OVER."

If the affair isn't over, then how can we proceed with all this other marriage work?

If she can't end the affair (its of the mind for crying out loud. I am asking for a committment to NC. Never email him again!!!) If she can't... perhaps its best if she move out of the house. Leave hubby and kids. Go figure it out and come back when you figured it out. I can't go on working on this alone while you have one foot in the affiar fantasy.

stretch,

Plan A, Plan A, Plan A. Read up on the carrot and the stick of Plan A, and work that plan like crazy!

WW may be under the mistaken belief that if she uses this threat of continued possible contact, she can use this as a wedge against you. It would not surprise me at all, because your changes may be something she doesn't really believe will stick. Plan A is something that she has to believe will be a permanent change in you, so no LB'ing, and you need to be on best behavior to work this Plan to get her through the withdrawal phase. If she was still doing emails just a month and a half ago, that means she is still in withdrawals.

You have only just begun recovery, so read up on what you need to do for your Plan. Be sure to meet her EN's, and not make DJ's during your talks.

When she says that she doesn't think she can do NC, you could respond "Our marriage can survive your affair once it ends. It cannot survive having three people in the marriage. You must stop contact as a condition of our marriage recovery." Then, CHANGE THE SUBJECT. Be a broken record.

Plan A, but be preparing to go to Plan B if you have to. You don't know what might happen down the line. Watch what she does - spy on her - and do not listen so much to what she is saying. Waywards are liars. Watch her actions!

I read Plan A good and long. Thank you.

Right now on the rollercoaster... she feels hopeless. She is going to stay in a hotel a couple days. Bad chest cold and one theory is that grief is sitting in the chest. She needs to recover and get healthy. But emotional stress is making it impossible.

Her despair is deep. We were doing much better before I found out about the EA. And I thought counseling was finally really getting somewhere. She was closer to me. And as it turns out, hopeful enough that she was starting to work with her therapist about a plan (maybe many months from now) but a plan to expose herself.

But today, she feels as bad as it did when the A started. My interpretation: this exposure has taken her back to despair of back two years ago, when she believed everything was hopeless and could only see the hurt and pain in 14 years of marriage. Nothing redeeming or good at all in her memory. The hard work of the past six months and my awakening are back to zero.

She says, "I worked on the M all by myself for 14 years. I read books. I talked to counselors and loved ones. I threw rocks at your head. Your six months of awakening just aren't enough."

There must be a fog after exposure that reverts her back to this --- "just give up. Its hopeless." state of mind. Its comforting. Its an easy way out. It seems justified. She can run from her actions and infidelity. She has an excuse to quit. Easier on WW to throw it in because its her fault. I am absolved -- she got her ejector seat.

We were really getting somewhere. So how about that feeling of: "I wish I hadn't found out." Its powerful isn't it. But phony. I know. Our work really was going to stall as long as she had the secret.

no expert here stretch, I exposed the same day you did. I'll let the vets give you the action items, but I do have an observation.

It has been less than a week since she was confronted with the stark realities. Dispair and conflict are good, it says to me that the real world where actions have consequences are seeping into her thought process. She can no longer disregard them.

You are not done stretch, no ejector seat. If she leaves you fight every inch of the way. Do you want this marriage or don't you?

Stick to the plan, this is fog talking...yours and hers.

Obviously her comment about "feelings" for him are dissipating quickly were false. She is still lying to you. With no commitment of NC, you simply just don't know where you stand. This guy apparently doesn't even want to know her. She needs time alone. I don't think she will chuck it all in. But her friends will always be there to enable her feeling of "it wasn't that bad". And "You tried for 14 years with you husband and he never got it". I want you to think of one thing. I think she is just as guilty for the 14 years. Not in how she treated you. But how she talked to her friends and brothers and sisters about you. It is now accepted by her that they tear you down to her. She sincerely needs to take the step with them, by telling them "He is my husband and he may not be perfect but I don't want to hear another negative thing about him coming out of your pie holes". If she will not defend you and your marriage. She will always be rolling around in the mud with them over your past. HER/YOUR COUNSELORS NEED TO GET THIS THROUGH TO HER IF SHE WANTS TO SAVE HER MARRIAGE AND MOVE FORWARD. Otherwise she and you will be miserable for the rest of your lives together. YOU HAVE TO HAVE FRIENDS OF THE MARRIAGE. We all have a stake in each others marriages.

Stickin to the plan. This morning I came into the bedroom (I have not been able to sleep in bed with her every night. Sometimes sleep won't come lying there. Sometimes I sleep on the floor or the couch.) But anyway, this morning I came in and she reached out for a hug. We deeply enjoyed holding each other for half an hour. Lovely sweet talk about meeting needs. IT feels so good. I really, really want this marriage. She makes me melt.

But she said, "I don't want to go to a hotel. I really need to get over my bronchitis. I need to know that when I lie down or sit down this afternoon, everyone will be there for themselves. You will help the kids. I can't mommy everyone when I am sick."

So she will stay home. She is out at a meeting this AM, then lunch with her friends and brother (co-conspirators. I am not able to trust their advice right now. But read back a few posts. Gotta let that be. They'll sort it out. btw - she has reached out for new friends! Subconciously needed fresher POV's)

But when she gets back she wants to hold her kids and be allowed to rest and get over bronchitis. Plan A. Plan A.

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.
Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.
Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Exactly, you got the carrot, but where is the stick portion?

Stick:

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.
About a dozen close people now know)

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.
I will not / did not apologize for my plan of action on exposure day.)

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.
Yes! I have been saying. "I hurt." "That hurts." "That's painful." "This is too painful. I have to walk away now." This works! She hates the pain she caused on me.)

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.
(I WILL NOT. This one is hard. Because she and her peeps do seem to want to go to the place where we examine how bad she felt before the affair / reasons why she did it. (my faults of course) But I stand firm. The affair itself was HER CHOICE. I have a lot to examine about myself and who I was to her.(Carrot) But SHE CHOSE THE AFFAIR ON HER OWN. Her bad husband did not force her to do it.)

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.
(Hard one. I don't know what her consequences are right now. Watching me suffer? Guilt for my pain? Her family and peeps are sooooo supportive it bothers me. Fear of losing children? Forced to move out? (I am not leaving the house. Kids would live here with me if it came to that. She made the choice, she would be the one to move out.)

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financial security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.
(Yes. I must remind: we are protecting the children)

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.
(Help me: Do I say things to her like: "For the good of the family, I want to slay this beast.")

Hurts all over. I was hyperventillating today.

Hang in there stretch! I exposed about 5 days ago to about 60 people - I kind of carpet bombed the OMs side, co-workers and other miscellaneous email addresses I found in the emails OM forwarded to my WW. That'll teach him not to forward work emails directly any more, I suppose.

I'm in the same place you are, probably. It's tough, I'm tired and today, for the first time, I entertained the notion of divorce and what it would mean. I quickly snapped back from it, but I chalk it up to fatigue and being battle weary.

We are beat.
I am really focused on Plan A and owning my actions. I was not good to her. She was in a horrible place. Also, I have no intention of holding onto this against her forever. I know we can heal.

Good morning. Difficult food for thought...
There is a school of reasoning out there in some places that says: "Do not expose yourself just to ease your own guilt. You will damage your partner and it won't make it better."

In other words, if my wife had another affair... if I don't have suspicion and am not close to clues... don't tell me.

This is dangerous, sloppy thinking though. Let me rephrase this to show you why:

"I'm not going to be honest with my life partner. I will seek my gratification away from the marriage I promised to honor. What he doesn't know won't hurt him. I'll just have to hope that no one else ever tells him. I guess that means I'm not in control of my life, but that's okay."

Thank you.
This advice comes from Mira K's book. Sorry to discuss it here.

Also, pretty sure her therapist tells her or has told her, "Don't expose yourself just for your guilt. You will hurt him."

I told her I went to a strip club once and got aroused to the point of releasing in my pants. Her response: "I didn't want to know that."

I have deep suspicion there is another affair somewhere presently or in the past...

I don't mind seeing that reference here because it's so obviously flawed logic that it can't withstand scrutiny.

Don't go to any more strip clubs, stretch, you naughty boy.