I am very glad that MelodyLane linked that codependency article for you. "Codependency" and "Mid-life Crisis" need to be removed from the English language.

There are things in your M that sound EXACTLY like how my M was...and we weren't codependent. We were just lazy and scared. Both you and your WW have the tools or can easily (here) learn the tools for meeting each other's needs. But M takes WORK. And sometimes that work is challenging. And sometimes you need to CHANGE things about yourselves. And no, you don't always get everything "right" on the first try....so you try again.

You said something about exposing her A to a counselor....does that mean your W is a teacher? I am a music teacher, and my A was with the art teacher at my school. Now, I will say that I can understand (and I know that isn't exactly what everyone thinks and that's okay) your W finishing out the year because if she is like almost every other teacher, she signed a contract. HOWEVER, either she or the OM need to be applying for other teaching jobs for next year. Period. There is no situation "unique" enough not to do that.

Now remember I am speaking as a FWW...one who had allowed herself to become completely self-absorbed and had all the "psychology" in place to justify it. "Listening to her voice" is the last thing you need to do. Her voice is so full of skewed thinking, selfishness, and justification even SHE shouldn't be listening to it. That isn't mean. In fact, the unloving thing to do would be to LET her stay in this terrible deceived place. It's like letting a child play in the street because you don't want to "stunt their self-esteem" by yelling at them to get out of the road.

If she is preparing to file....YOU aren't the one who needs to find a place to live. The one who cheat and leaves the M leaves the house. She needs to feel every single consequence of her actions.

Now I am not the legalistic type. I freely admit that I have complemented MB with other places in some areas of my M. But the things you are trying to get around are foundational. I mean, it's one thing to use NIV instead of King James Bible. It's another to leave out half the New Testament, if you get my drift.

You should read SAA if you haven't already. And whatever counselor it is that has fed y'all this inward turned codependent stuff...fire them.

The A was between her and a consultant that lives in another city. According to OMS, he is also in intensive counseling, both medical and mental because of failure to take medication before and during affair. I really think I can move past worry about NC and move to saving the M.

I agree that her mind does not see things clearly now and that's why it is difficult to listen to a screwed up voice. But her reasoning for D is that she feels she cannot be with anyone anymore and just wants to be alone. She doesn't care what happens next, she just wants to be alone and not confront. She hates confrontation.

So my options are to scored LB points by giving her that space and time. Separation = Risky, painful, against advice. But what is the alternative?? Making her move out would initiate that phone call - trust me!

BTW, she just asked me what she should fix for dinner?? Today was supposed to be move out day?? How do I handle that one? Not looking for an answer, but just pointing out the eggshells of this period of recovery and the anxiety every word or action causes. What is going on in her mind?? Do I ask and put her back on defensive, or go with the flow and put off separation another day??

The formula works. Read enough threads, and you see that.

Find me one that covers this:

WW has ended A and agreed to NC.
Her method of dealing with the shame and guilt of the A is not remorse and reconciliation but rather a determination that the M must be flawed, so the best choice is to use the cleanup of the A as an opportunity to end M with a D to prevent future relapses. Her failure to seek D already has more to do with sympathy for me than desire for a recovery alternative.

My challenge is to end D plan without separation and encourage recovery efforts - or accept separation as an enabling step toward recovery.

I cant find a thread that deals with this scenario. Most talk about BS filing for D, not WW. I do learn from the WW threads, though, particularly about the duration and effect of the A fog.

This is very irrational in view of the fact that she is divorcing you. She is leaving you for the OM. So, no the therapist is not correct obviously. You are getting divorced. Maybe nothing could save your marriage but you really don't know because you didn't try to save it.


I don't believe this. I believe you are desperate for any plan that serves your main goal, which is to avoid conflict at all cost. The cost is the loss of your marriage. As you can see.

The "formula" that attracts people to this site does so because it works. So if someone is looking for advice that works, it will be relevant to them. If they are looking for a means to avoid conflict, rather than save their marriage, of course it won't be relevant to them.

Your way doesn't work. As you can see. Conflict avoidance and enabling does not work. But you already know that.


Apparently it wasn't "successful" because she had another affair and is divorcing you. Separation does not help marriages, it harms them and increases the risk of divorce.

PlsNotAGAIN, you are more foggy than most waywards who show up here. Your best thinking has ruined your marriage and there isn't anything we can do if your goal is conflict avoidance instead of saving your marriage. You can't save a marriage by avoiding conflict. As you already know..

I call BS on this. Her reasoning for talking D is to cow you into shutting up and allowing her to continue leading her independent lifestyle.

You scared her, Pls, when you stood up for your M. She didn't like that - it threatened her lifestyle. So she upped the ante by one-upping the card you played: "Oh, yeah, you think you can scare me with exposure? Watch this - I'm going to threaten divorce, whattya think of that?"

Separation is risky, yes. What's equally bad is for your WW to cower you into her continued IB. She's trying to shift the power back into her corner, and she knows that threatening divorce will accomplish that. Because she smells your fear.

Just about every other woman I know would fit the personality type you guys are describing and I would have much different options with them. My wife is not like them. What works with them will drive her away - forever. Conflict is kryptonite here and anything that looks like control and agressiveness will send her gladly running away to D content that she was justifiably escaping abuse regardless of the facts. If you look back, you will see me confronting a lot and winning a lot and following a lot of advice given here regarding many issues. Those skills are not useful here at this point in recovery. This is not a streetfight. This is mental health treatment. I need advice relevant to the facts. I can't change the facts to fit the advice.

She is not interested in others. She is interested only in preservation of self. Her heart is thawing a little but rock hard and her mind does not process like you guys want. She will flee, not fight the conflict, and only realize the consequences to her far too late to do either of us any good.

I agree 100% with your post. The smart play normally is to call the bluff and play my big cards of exposure and ultimatum, but that ends this game - it does not win it for me.

I am dealing only with the next issue which is the separation. I might be able to avoid separation today and that is good because we are having a lot of good LB things I cannot do in separation. That is as far as I dare push at this point.

Mel, it is not irrational. Please believe me, the OM is dead, dead, dead!!! That horse is dead, quit beating it. This went very quickly to D and me and the choice of being alone or with me, not with OM.

More than likely it's not dead. She is just getting you out of the way.

Someone is headed for the School of Hard Knocks.. Good luck, my friend.

Man, I wish I had a nickel for every BS who thought his or her wayward was 'different' or that their affair was a special case in some way.

Your wayward is so garden-variety that I can tell you what she will do next. We've seen this movie before. But you don't need that from me, because you know her better, right?

Good luck doing it your way. I'll not burden you with my thoughts since you already have it all figured out and don't need any advice. Gotcha.

Good luck. (And btw, pls? You're not in recovery. Just in case you weren't sure.)

Pls......I'm sorry, but y'all really aren't that special. I was just like your wife when I was wayward. The reason your wife is like this is not because she is "unique" but because she is wayward.

"So my options are to scored LB points by giving her that space and time."

The above quote makes no sense....you aren't going to feel her LB by being absent. That is hogwash....absence does NOT make the wayward heart grow fonder. It makes the wayward heart reconnect with the OM or find a new one. Period.

You are stubborn. You need to channel that stubbornness into strategy that actually makes sense. It's time to quit tiptoeing around your wife. Do not move out of that house. I do not believe NC is something you can count on. And as far as the OM and meds and all that stuff....if he has a mental issue, it isn't going to be fixed overnight.

I can't remember who it was here, but someone who was here for a long time used to ask: what would you do if you were not afraid?

WOW...he really has no clue...my oh my will he go bonkers when he finds out that she is still seeing the OM...after the divorce and see's their wedding pix in the news paper.

You my friend is a loss cause

You did nothing to save this marriage by avoiding conflict and nothing mel or anyone will say that will change your mind.

So divorce her and be done with this charade.

PNA, at least do yourself a favour, even if you take no other advice...

Start up or continue to snoop your butt off. When she contacts OM again if and when that happens, you need to know it.

At least do that.

All the best, sincerely.

Looking back, the best advice from this forum was - let's just call it "gathering truth", not "snooping". I am continuing that with the support of OMS. Thanks. Even as recovery might progress, I understand the fog and loss of perspective and compassion and the addiction involved so I can see a desire on both parts to communicate and end things "properly" even in the desire to "make amends". These are both people who have lifelong reputations of integrity and good so it will be tempting for them to contact each other in the name of integrity and good. That will be hard to prevent but I will try and full exposure is the consequence.

But back to my bigger issue, I'm still not certain where we are. There's been no talk of separation "implementation" but we meet with MC later this week and I'm sure that will be a topic. I'm trying to use this opportunity until then to show love without being smothering and without expectation of anything in return other than time to process and heal. Hopefully, time will help healing and the hardness and defensiveness will soften. I still think the most valuable thing we need is finding a path forward that gives her space to process without me having to leave and be partially removed from that process. But I feel helpless in making that happen. Anything I do to encourage it will be defended against and yield the opposite result - you hate hearing that as much as I hate saying it, but that's reality and not worth a "just try it" risk.

I am wondering sometimes why am I still posting here? She might even be reading this. I guess its because despite the fact that I have no clue who you are and what you have experienced, the reality is that you are the only people I know that have been through this and that I can learn from. I value your opinions even though I don't act on the advice the way you might prefer. I am reading more than I write and I do see how much you help others and understand how frustrating it must be when you reach out to someone that does not take your hand. I can only repeat that my W is my W because she was and is unique and that has brought us more better than worse in our M. What she felt in the A is less important right now than what she felt before the A and that is why I focus on that issue.

Ther is nothing more important to me than doing this right.

With a little luck your OM has moved onto less thorny targets. Sounded like he was a serial, so maybe you get lucky there.

Lets hope.

This is Pot/Kettle syndrome. It is not okay for you to do this, but is okay for her to.

You are doing Plan "Save marriage at all costs."

The first thing to do about your codependency issues is to set boundaries.


This is really LOL funny! On the one hand you say she is unique and on the other hand you came up with a formula for calculating the probabilities of saving your marriage with limited exposure. So which is it? Not so unique that she can be calculated or unique that she doesn't respond to normal MB principles.

Please stay around. Everybody likes watching a train wreck. And it looks like you're headed for a huge KABOOM!

You can probably get me to listen more closely and make your point better without the LOL nonsense.

I'm up to page 16 of the recovery threads and I have yet to find another thread where the WW met with a lawyer to D the BS one week after exposure of any sort with no plan of ever seeing OM (save the sarcasm, he's not an issue). . . find that and then we can talk about normal versus unique. Is there a reverse Plan B I'm missing?

I am trying to do Plan A and buy time to do more Plan A. I've done pretty well for 3 days and it looks like I get 3 more. After that ???

Isn't this what you've been doing in your marriage? And it hasn't worked, has it?