and


Does this make sense to you? If it does, you are seriously fogged out and heading down the same road as your wife - the road that leads straight to divorce.

I'm sorry to see this happen to your family.

The above is how my H's EA started (OW met EN of conversation). They were "just friends", he was not even attracted to her. He wasn't expecting an EA to happen. In fact, his statement that he repeated over and over following dday was "I didn't want an affair to happen. We were just talking!"

In addition to Dr Harley's warning that this is how most affairs start, it is also well documented in the many threads here on the forum.

So I assume your assertion is that you are somehow different than my FWH and all the other F?WSs here? If so, how? Can you explain this to me?

So you're saying because your spouse cheated, or someone else's spouse cheated, I TOO will cheat? That's a bold assumption. I'm already leagues ahead of your spouses in admitting that I have a friendship. This puts me leagues ahead of your spouses in preventing anything serious. I don't care what Dr Harvey says about love banks; it does not guarantee cheating. There has to be a WANT or DESIRE to do it. I have neither. In 12 years of marriage to my wife there has never been desire or want to cheat, despite all of our problems and my close friends. I am not some weak minded individual.

I'm not trying to justify this friendship. I'm not. I'm merely saying that until my wife is willing to make the same sacrifice I have made TWICE (removal of opposite sex friends) I'm not going to do it a third time. I've already done everything I'm supposed to do: exposure, recovery, plan a, etc. My wife is not making any effort to meet my intimate needs. My wife is still making zero effort to stop talking to this Jon guy, nor will she ever. And unlike her, I have the willpower to resist temptations and put myself in a vulnerable position. We've always had opposite sex friendships but she's the only one who can't seem to keep her head on straight.

WOW. If this isn't some of the most wayward speak out of a "betrayed" husband's mouth, then I am going bonkers.

You are going to put your children through a LIFETIME of DEVASTATION because you can't stand up and show them what it means to be a honest man who lives his life with integrity.

Having opposite sex friends is BAD FOR MARRIAGE. Not about you being able to have a female "friend"(BTW, my WH said that OW was his FRIEND too until I installed a keylogger and SAW the truth) to get back at your WW for having an A. This is an IMMATURE response, like my one son justifying hitting his brother because, "HE HIT ME FIRST." I always say, "I DON'T CARE. It is WRONG to hit and you know it." Well, unless you are single it is ALWAYS wrong to have a female "friend" who would be in a position of meeting ENs. And if you don't believe in DrH's basic concepts about the Love bank, what are you doing here anyways?

Your whole statement assumes I find opposite sex relationships wrong. Which I don't. Never have. I find it controlling to tell someone who they can be friends with. If you can't control yourself then you don't deserve to be trusted. It's that simple.

It's when you CAN be trusted but your spouse refuses to do it that creates issues. It's when you beg for trust yet do stupid [censored] when no one is looking that creates issues. I agree a lot of these rules are the MB program is great. But just because I think it's great doesn't mean I have to agree with every single detail of it. It could be the best for me, just like that toyota could be the best for my needs. May not fit them 100%, but it's the best.

You assuming I'm not an honest man because I have a friend is a bit naive. I would never do anything to jeopardize my marriage. The program is about making each other happy. If she's not willing to give up opposite sex friends why should I? If she does I will gladly do it. I'm already two up on her so the proof is there even though proportionally my two is about 66.7% of my total opposite sex friends where Jon is only about 5% of hers. And I didn't just say I was going to stop talking to them but then start sending them emails or playing games with them. I cut off all contact 100%. Something she has never done or will ever do.

I don't even know what to say. You didn't seem to have a problem with Dr Harley or his principles for the first 20 pages or so of this thread until you realized he wouldn't approve of your relationship with your OW...

You are already in the beginning stages of an EA. I don't know what to say. I really do feel badly for your children. *sigh*

I don't remember ever saying I was against opposite sex relationships, or that I wanted my wife to give up hers. I strictly remember having an issue with WHAT was being said and HOW it was being said.

You're driving a dark, winding mountain path at night.

Other people who have traveled the same path are telling you: drive slow and stick to the mountain side.

You're saying: I'm an EXCELLENT driver! I'm going to drive as close to the edge as possible.

Those who've driven close to the edge and dealt with the destruction afterwards are saying: Please be careful! This is dangerous! We've fallen off the edge before, it isn't pretty.

You reply: How could you be questioning my driving!?!? You don't know me, you don't know what kind of driver I am! I'm going 70. You guys are just wrong.

The thing is... your kids are in the back seat Chris.

If you go full speed 70 miles an hour driving as close to the edge as possible, sure you COULD not fall off the edge. Your skills and luck may conspire to where you DON'T fall off the edge.

But, is it worth it? Is it worth the risk of careening off the cliff with your innocent kids in the car, just to prove how good a driver you are? Just to get the rush and thrill of pleasure?

Because if you DO fall (not saying you will, just that it is VERY likely) it isn't just you taking the dive. It's your kids - who are already falling because of the poor choices of their mother.

Is a friendship with a girl who stokes your ego worth it?

Is it worth the possibility of pain?

If you care about yourself, and your kids, and you're stuck driving down a dark mountain path, you drive as close to the mountain as you can, as slow as you can, and if it's possible you BUILD A DANG GUARDRAIL so there is no chance of falling.

Don't play chicken with your family.

Be the parent they need.

SOMEONE has to think about these kids, put their needs and desires first. It's left to you, since their mom sure as heck isn't.

Is a 'friendship' with another woman worth it?

If she is a true friend, and you tell her you need to be there for your kids, you can't invest emotionally in a friendship right now, she'll understand.

I have done this. I'm not emotionally connecting with her. It's surprisingly easy to just TALK to someone you've known 18 years. There is nothing invested in this relationship. She was a friend and family years before she became an ex and years before my wife entered the picture. And after she became an ex she remained a friend and family one who understood that I'd rather be there for my kids than remain her b/f. She knows my kids are my life and I gave HER up for THEM.

See the trend here?

This person is not someone I'm willing to take out of my life. They mean way more to me than as just a friend or ex-gf. I probably never should have crossed that boundary into a relationship but I did. Can't take it back now. Kicking this relationship would be akin to one of you telling your brother or sister you can no longer be friends with them, because they are opposite sex. I'm sure they would look at you like you're stupid.

Dr Harley says that everyone is capable of having affairs. Only proper boundaries around opposite sex is the key for staying faithful not some magic willpower which you claim to have.

Chris,
I am really repeating what others have said before me, but I wish someone had done this for me when it wasn't too late...

I had been married 9 years with no desire or want to cheat. I thought we were doing just fine, better than most couples, actually. Just these itzy-bitzy needs for conversation, affection and admiration had been neglected for some time (I wish I had had the tools to recognize them for what they were and communicate them to my H).

So when this person turned up who was nice to write to - about everything from just everyday stuff, weather and such, to the deeper topics of cultural differences, societal systems etc, I thought it was a win-win-win situation: H didn't have to chat with me, I got my conversation needs fulfilled, everybody was happy. He knew from the beginning of our correspondence, so no secrecy. Besides, what's the difference whether you write to a woman or a man, right? It is not like you get to meet each other again (different countries), so I treated it as a totally safe friendship. (I had never thought opposite sex friendships wrong. Until now.) And I was absolutely not trying to jeopardize my marriage. Well... you can check out my sig line to see what it led to.

See my point? I deliberately used some of your sentences.

I am saying that in my view, your marriage is in so much worse shape than mine was at the time, that every closer relationship with other women is just a timebomb already triggered - and it is not counting years, it is counting minutes. And when it comes to the point where you say that you cannot kick the person out of your life, then she already has acquired a higher position in your life compared to your wife. If you had to choose today - GF or wife, one can stay, one must go: which one would it be?

Seriously - be honest with yourself, acknowledge this other friendship for what it is and keep your side of the garden clean. "But she does it too" or "She did it first" is not a valid argument for grown-ups and I sensed quite a bit of revengeful thinking in your posts.

Uh-oh. This is a typical first step in an affair.

Am I reading this right? Chris, have you begun an EA?

Side note to Chris: were you using disparaging comments like this when you came to us, desperate for help? Do you notice your defensiveness, when you come to us to talk about something that you know we will have some concerns about?

And those concerns are for YOU, Chris.

Okay. That's fine. Keep your sisterly friendship. We're not your moral compass. We're just survivors of a deadly bombing.

But do one thing, Chris, for this 'sisterly friendship.' Go to her husband and tell him everything she's told you about how bad her M is. Offer your support to HIM, as well.

Have you done this? Because if this is true to form, I suspect he has no clue about the things his wife is discussing with you, and that his M is that 'bad'.

Opposite sex 'relationships' are pretty much unavoidable. No one is suggesting you be a monk.

They are relatively safe when the friendship is conducted within the presence of the two people's spouses and all parties are strongly aware of boundaries and respect them. I don't see this happening here, unless you've neglected to tell us that her H is along for all of these discussions about her M? Did I miss that?

Question: do either of you keep the extent of your friendship and conversations a secret from either spouse?

Chris, you are already further down this path than you think. You seem to think we're some crazy alarmists who've had too much of the MB Kool-Aid, but we are just speaking from experience - some of us as the victims, some as the perpetrators.

If you do nothing else, please look at your posts from when you first got here 'til now. Also, please think about what maritalbliss has brought up re: your conversations w/ your ex-GF and her (B)H's role in that.

Willpower is exactly what it is. Weak minded people subject themselves to situations they cannot overcome. It doesn't take a marriage building program, a psychiatrist, or a counselor to know this. Anyone can be friends with anyone. If you WANT to cheat you WILL; If you DO NOT, you WILL NOT. It's that simple.

Her H is not in the loop because they are separated, not living together, and in the middle of divorce. My wife does infact know about this relationship and our conversations. I made it VERY clear to her that I was talking to her and the topics of our discussions. My wife made it very clear she does not care as long as I respect the boundaries and don't go to her for advice--which I am not.

So to answer your question: No, I do not keep this a secret from my spouse.

My Formerly Wayward Husband said the same thing. Before his affair.

Why don't you go to him and explain that his wife has been confiding their marital issues to you, and you'd like to extend a hand to him to give him support if he'd be interested in having it.