I will have to look again...I am no Bible expert, by any means....but offhand one was Pauls letter to the Corinthians..according to Paul you can separate but not remarry. New Testament, Right?

You are right though I will read more....esp the Old Testament.

I seem to remember something about a man who marries the divorced woman commits adultery....was that Jesus....IDK....Back to the Bible....

Lol, "Back to the Bible" is a Christian radio show name too.

I will have to look up Pauls letter, and see if he was quoting the law for example, or supporting it. But yes it is New Testiment.

Paul said something that I can apply to myself now,..


I can't find the verse to quote, but I will do my best to paraphrase.

"It is better that a man not take a wife, because he will be consumed with the concerns for his wife if he takes one. but if he has no wife, he can be concerned then with the things of God"

Again it is not perfectly quoted, and much still be lost in translation even if it was.

I find I am in that place seeking Gods wisdom and guidance more than I was when I was married, where I was seeking his intervention, and desparetly holding on and staying as strong as I could. My ability to endure worked against me accually, as I had a marriage at any cost in my mind.

If I had come here then, the 2x4s would be worn down to toothpicks, as I was a great enabler, and allowed myself to be nuetered. But I wish I had come here long ago, for everyones sake.

I guess we will have to disagree on this point. It is real because it exists. The previous marriage no longer exists making the new marriage valid.

Yours is an intriguing question, and I hope you do right. I admit I have not read that much of your thread, but just wanted to offer you my view.

I know why you are asking this, but in my ho the answer lies in your relationship with your God. Period. A lot of bible references here, but they are meaningless in my opinion, unless you practice what is in your gut and your heart. I am catholic, okay, and yea I hear the Word, the Scripture, and that is a guide. You may think I am nuts, but what means more to me is Christ or Mary talking to me daily. Ya know, it is like a subtle voice deep down, and you can't get at peace umless you listen. So, if you have a doubt or uncertaintly in terms of spologizing to the OW, then listen to your heart and I think you will learn that you should apolosgize. It's call conscience - His voice.

*edit

You do what you want, but if you have the opportunity to face the pain of disclosure, and offer the offended party an explanation, then you have to look in your heart for the answer, and not put that qustion on a forum!

I wish you the best in making the right decision,

Tom

Oh Still, I forgot to mention two things.

1) If Jesus didn't say it, then I don't really put a lot of stock in it.

2) Your reading the Old testement, which is filled with Gods law, which is just, but God came to earth as a man and died to fufill that law which we cannot satisfy.(New testement)

The people asked for Gods law believing they could fufill it,(Ten commandments) and found out they couldn't, but still believe they are righteous if they keep a tab on how many they fill., (religion). Christ hated religion, because he wanted us to seek Him/God over the weak attempts of man to understand the beginning from the end.

Its interesting that when Mose brought the commandments down the first time to show them to the people, that he never made it to the bottom, because if man was to be judged right then by the Law of God, they would have all died. The second time Moses brought them down, he immediatly put them in the arc of the covenent, which was covered by the mercy seat.

Ok I am am not a scholar, and am not handing out this weeks lessons, and feel like I am being preachy here. I wish mans desire for relationship in the garden of Eden, (Blamed on the woman, but IMO the desire for relationship is present in both sexes, just stronger in woman), had not caused Man to eat of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil. But now we are stuck with it, and the judgements we must make.

May his mercy reign..

Hi Still,

t/j

Wow, I just want to say that this is the first time in like a long time that I have seen one of your posts.

It is sort of funny, but you do get impressions of people online. That is, the Internet can be misleading at times because anyone can post anything or represent themselves as anything on it. I think we are all aclimated to that.

But, on your behalf you simply come across as an honest and very sincere soul, and I wish so much the best for you.

I just had to sort of smile as I post this, because I remember way back almost like a year ago telling you about my interview with Lombardi way back when I was in college. I think at the time I gave you a website add that your son might enjoy about Lombardi, in terms of his values and philosophy. I hope that was of some value because I realize that it is so damned hard for any parent to raise their kids today (probably was true to a certain extent when I was a teen and used to try to sneak out of the house like at midnight to try to get with my 'wayward' friends and my gf....*s*... Oh so long ago.

Just best wishes Still...

Tom

Still,

by the way again, another reason I brought up Lombardi is of course because my team - Green Bay - won the Super Bowl. And would you believe my son is a Chicago Bears fan. Go figure, you try to raise them right and they go wrong...*s*

Tom

Me too Tom..

Thanks MF...well said.

Hi Constant,

another t/j

"Christ hated religion,..."

Mmm, I don't believe He hated 'religion'. Christ was not capable of hating. I believe He was and still is concerned about organized faith - whether Jewish, Christian, or any other faith - being misinterpreted or standing in the way of the intimate relationship that He wants with every soul! Organized faith - whether the Jewish code and faith, the Catholic Church, or any other, is intended to be a conduit to that intimate relationship.

It is sort of like the gift of marriage. Yes, marriage is defined in human terms - the code of laws regarding common property, parental rights, etc., but it is much more. It is the gift to realize a totally intimate relationship with another person (soul). I know this would sound pretty stupid if I were age 22 saying this...but I am age 68 saying this. This intimate relationship should have room for a third person - always. Of course that third is God, Christ, a higher power, or however you define. Thru that triad, we would realize the intimate realtionship that God wants from each of us. Marriage is a gift to us of that magical and wonderous intimate relationship that God wants each of us to have with One other person, as well as with Him.

Just my thoughts...

Tom

With ya Tom,

Two together with Christ,

Ecclesiastes 4:12
And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

Him=(Satan)

Of course that is Old Testament, but the promise of a deliverer was all through the Old testament.

I see all kinds of reference like you said about how he hated the the practice as you have described above clearly. As far as Him hating things, I know he never hates us, but I was talking about what you said, when I used the word Hate.

So off to find what he said about religion again, to refresh my memory.

Good post Tom

Hi again Still...

This is such a thought-provoking thread. I realize that I am thread-jacking here, and probably not offering much at all in way of comfort or encouragement to the author of the thread.

It is interesting tho Still, your reference to confession. Yes, I suppose confessing does ease some guilt, but, and this is just simply my view per my faith, true reconciliation with God and the restoration of the intimate relationship with Him cannot occur without first reconciling with the person harmed. I.e., the purest level of O&H should exist with God. If there is something held back, hidden, or minimized for the sake of our comfort or supposedly for the sake of 'protecting' another person the O&H is not restored. I can't qoute a new or old testament statement to specifically back that up, but it is just a general understanding based on my specific faith and my own personal feeling of a sort of emptiness over the lack of true reconciliation. I think as far as any kind of testament reference it would be Christ explaining to the Pharasees something like if you come to the altar with your gift, and you realize your brother (sister) has something against you, first go and reconcile with him (her), and then offer your gift.

And to Constant, all I can say is again you seem very wise, and I don't say that lightly. One thing I have realized from participating here over the last ten months or so is that so many people - here I am referring to the people who seem to come for help but just flit in and out of here, and even those people who never heard of this site but ones you read or hear about (celebreties, polititians, acqaintances etc.) - seem to take marriage so lightly and do not seem to realize the sanctity and permanence of their marital relationship! Again, this is my own personal and narrow opinion. And, believe me I have been one of those - one of the biggest offenders in terms of Char, short of me having an affair, but there are many other ways to transgress on this sacrad relationship, which I have been guilty of.

Awhile back I went to confession, and one of my sins that I stated to the priest was how I had avoided visiting Char or having her here for a short period of time last year. I just became selfish and tried to avoid the effort of dealing with her. She was complaining alot at that time, but that gave me no excuse to not go out of my way to comfort her for the sake of my own comfort. The priest talked with me for awhile and told me something that I honestly had never been told before and kind of flies in the face of social beliefs. I think deep down I did realize this, but he told me she is your wife forever! That honestly blew my socks off. He meant not just in this life, but in the next. When I was late teens I was in the seminary and studying for the priesthood. I knew damn well then that the vows a man takes upon ordination are forever. It is a sacrament in my faith. Again my own narrow view. I know now that the vows I made in marriage to Char are forever as well, not just here but eternity. I am speaking of the sacrad and intimate relationship. Yeah, I know, death, divorce, etc., can end the physical relationship, but those can never end the intended intimate spiritual relationship.

Well, long winded myself here..*s*

Tom

Originally Posted by Tom2010

Hi again Still...
...It is interesting tho Still, your reference to confession. Yes, I suppose confessing does ease some guilt, but, and this is just simply my view per my faith, true reconciliation with God and the restoration of the intimate relationship with Him cannot occur without first reconciling with the person harmed. I.e., the purest level of O&H should exist with God. If there is something held back, hidden, or minimized for the sake of our comfort or supposedly for the sake of 'protecting' another person the O&H is not restored. I can't qoute a new or old testament statement to specifically back that up, but it is just a general understanding based on my specific faith and my own personal feeling of a sort of emptiness over the lack of true reconciliation...
Tom

Wow!
Between you, Tom, & Constant ~
Well, let's just say that I am so very grateful to read your thoughts, feelings & beliefs!
When I read this part of your post, Tom, I remembered Jesus' words:

Matthew 5:37 (New King James Version)
"But let your �Yes� be �Yes,� and your �No,� �No.� For whatever is more than these is from the evil one."

When I confess my sins, I have two choices:
I must either
Acknowledge my sin (Agree with God)
OR
Deny it. (Disagree with God)
God does not allow me to be "lukewarm"!

Revelation 3:16 (New King James Version)
"So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[a] I will vomit you out of My mouth."

The same is true when I sin against someone with skin on!
When I "feel" that "twinge" of guilt in my gut, I know exactly what that means!!!!!
Humbling myself before God & those I have sinned against goes against every fiber of my being!
YUCK! I hate the taste of "Humble Pie"!!!
Yet, I KNOW what God "expects" of me...
A funny thing happens when I humble myself in my confession before God's throne of love, mercy, grace & compassion...
He restores me in my right relationship with Him...
Sadly, sometimes, the people with skin on, whom I seek forgiveness from, refuse to extend their forgiveness...
It is only then that I crawl up on my Daddy's lap and cry!
He assures me that He will take care of the person who withheld their forgiveness...
I have done what He expected of me...
My job is "done"...
The rest lies with Him...
I just love the fact that God has such a sweet sense of humor!
It's like, He's sitting up there on his throne with a big smile on His face, looking down @ me...
In my frustration of not receiving someone's forgiveness, He's just sitting there, knowing:
"LIAC4M" simply needs to "let go" of trying to be in control of other people!!! Goodness! Look how frustrated she is! But it's okay! Sooner or later, she'll 'get it'! I AM STILL IN CONTROL!"

Thanks & God bless

It seems like you believe in the Blue Eyed Breck Girl kind of Jesus that really didn't exist.

You say Christ was incapable of hate. Yet I believe that in many cases we are told that God hates sin, hates certain attitudes, etc. If you believe in the trinity and that Jesus is God incarnate, then your statement does not stand logically.

Jesus wasn't some sort of Lamb Carrying, smiling nice guy. Jesus was a very rough, no-nonsense guy.

Some examples:




So right there from Jesus, we learn that we are to Love God and Hate the ways of the world. Since Jesus would not tell us to sin, hate itself is not a sin. Now certain manifestations of hate would be sinful, such as hating good, loving evil. But hate itself is not necessarily a sin.


Seems pretty clear God hates sin and is willing to punish those who are engaged in unrepentant sin.

Jesus didn't always speak in a gentle fashion. Look at how he called the Pharisees whitewashed tombs and broods of vipers, etc. That's the example of hating religion. It's not that Jesus hated God, he hated how mankind has perverted religion.

See Zechariah 8:17, God clearly says he hates certain behaviors. Since God cannot sin, hate is valid in some circumstances.

I can't recall the scripture where God says he hates the way folks were practicing religion and how he hated how the Pharisees were oppressing the people with their rules and laws, missing out on what God wanted which was a people who loved Him.

We are not to hate people, and if you had said it's a sin to hate people, then I'd agree. However, your words said Jesus cannot hate (and I presume you mean that to mean hate is a sin), and clearly that is not true in all cases since God says He hates certain things.

Therefore, God and by extension Jesus can indeed hate and therefore, hate alone cannot be a sin.

Now I would agree that Jesus could not harbor a sinful hate, but is indeed capable of hate.

I think your priest gets it wrong with respect to being married forever. We are told that in the Kingdom of Heaven, there is no male, nor female, neither slave nor free. - Galatians 3, IIRC.

Since heaven is about worshiping God, it doesn't seem as if having a spouse is consistent with what I understand about heaven.

The wonderful thing about Jesus....He is perfect. The perfect balance of justice and mercy. The perfect balance of grace and holiness.

People, not so much....we have our bents in certain directions, and we generally don't tolerate those who bend a slightly different way. I'm not talking sin here....sin is sin. I'm talking the subtleties that makes US comfortable.

Jesus didn't mind making others uncomfortable....he also offered quite a bit of comfort. Jesus didn't cast a stone at the adulterous woman. He also told her to go and sin no more.

And as far as forgiveness goes, only Christ can wipe out the debt of our sin......and yet when he taught his disciples to pray, he said "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." Jesus isn't permissive, and He isn't legalistic. And since the term Christian means we are to be like Him.....we have quite a daunting task.

I don't remember that part; I remember that they freaked out when God started speaking from the mountain and begged not to hear His voice any more and begged Him to speak privately to Moses instead.

Sorry, I'm probably sidetracking majorly.

Jesus had a complete understanding of contrasts, and knew that he couldn't explain 'lightness' unless his listeners understood the concept of 'darkness.' Making his listeners uncomfortable was necessary, in order for them to understand the difference between that and comfort.

Just my thoughts.

You are right, bitter is too loaded of a word. It's not helpful.

NC doesn't seem to have a problem with being "attacked" ~ it appears to me that she knows she DESERVES it. She is ok with it and has never defended her actions. Why does it bother you so much?