Spent Sunday shopping for laptops with D14. She wanted the latest and gretest that is very expensive. She asked the entire family to give her checks for her birthday so she could contribute to the laptop. We went looking at various stores, and the choice came down to 2 machines. One was twice the price of the other. We sat in the car and had a long talk. I told her that I was at war inside. Part of me wants to say "yes, you should buy the expensive one because I love you and want you to have everything you desire." Another part of me wants to say "I am your father and I love you and it is my job to help you avoid foolish mistakes. To me, spending so much money on a laptop that will be obsolete in a few years is foolish. So part of me thinks the loving thing is to help you get comfortable spending less on the laptop if the lower priced on is good enough, which it seems to be".

In the end, she agreed to buy the less expensive laptop. Last night she told me she loves it. And that she is glad she let me convince her not to spend so much more money. Kudos to me.

Good for you Hold.

Been working on this type of stuff w/ DD13. She spent a few weeks babysitting her cousin last summer. At the end, my sister took her shopping. She had to spend her own money that she had to earn.

She also had some shopping to do after her B-day and Christmas, and 'ol dad had to teach her how to comb the clearance racks.

Still a picky kid... too much into "in crowd" middle-school politics... but, she's learning.

I think this is partly genetic / universal. Have you read the studies that have come out recently about bullying. Bullying is not done only to people at the bottom of the social ladder. Most teenagers in the "middle of the pack" of social status bully others to jockey for position on the ladder. Only the top 2% generally don't bully, since they can't climb any higher.

We discussed this in the car. She wants what anyone else has, and she wants it NOW. That is the natural teenage tendency. Other studies show that the "foresee future consequences" parts of the human brain do not develop until age 20+. So I have to help her balance what she wants now and what she will regret later.

Yes, good for you, hold!

Part of why I love living in my demographically quirky town, is that my kids were not as exposed to want it now/have it now teenage stuff than if we lived elsewhere.

Plus they were surrounded by mostly frugal adults who had enough money, but did not try to keep up with the Jones or revel in instant gratification.

One of my family members is an educator, who shares what she knows about the teenage and young adult brain. We recently had the conversation about shedding the frontal lobe, I think.

I am so glad your daughter gave you positive feedback!

I know quite a few adults who could use this type of lesson.

2 nights ago I snuggled up next to her and put my hand on her hip. She jumped up, screamed "I can't take this any more", and ran out of the room. She apologized when she returned. I told her "apology not accepted".

Last night I got into bed and she said "leave me alone. Stay away. I need space. In other words I am cranky." This morning she apologized. I said I feel that my touch makes her skin crawl. She said that is not true, the real problem is that she has trouble sleeping and she hates it if I disturb her at all at night. I thanked her for sharing with me, but told her knowing her reasons doesn't eliminate the hurt when she rejects me. We need to find a time and manner for me to get into bed that doesn't result in her violently rejecting me. She did not offer any suggestions.

She told me she and the kids want to do something special for me on Memorial Day weekend. I said it was nice, and the kids offering to spend time with me (instead of their friends) helps me feel love from them. From her, time with the kids does not make love bank deposits. From her, only Physical Touch will do.

And I mean touch, not SF. I am not looking for SF. I can no longer perform sexually, not even when I am with myself. So I am only asking for snuggling, not sex.

Oh my gosh--welcome to the crazy house, Hold.

I don't know how you live with this.

Anyway.

Was that sad sad cautionary story you told true about the husband and wife and his regrets? It was so sad, I didn't even have anything to say.

I am speechless. Just stunned.

It's a great relationship you've got there, my friend.

{{{{hold}}}}

Thanks. I am choosing to stay and not press the issue, so I am getting what I have signed up for.

This morning on her way out the door, Mrs. Hold leaned toward me to provide Affection. She could not bring herself to kiss me. But she did rub cheeks. Then she pulled back and stuck her tongue out and laughed. DJ alert: I think the intimacy was too much for her. I said "I hope some day you can take my love seriously." She said "I take you very seriously." I said "I meant that maybe some day my love will not freak you out." She said "don't hold your breath waiting for that day". That is as close as we get to honesty.

These episodes are making my skin crawl.

I don't think intimacy is too much for her, I think she doesn't love you in "that way". She loves you as a wallet, and tolerates you for the rest of it.

Yes, I know the core problem is that she does not find me attractive. Probably never did. Lied to me to get me to marry her. And won't admit the truth now. Well, there is also the problem that I am not brave enough to even try to make myself more attractive in her eyes.

But her lack of honesty is OK. I am not admitting the truth to her, either. So, as always, we are well matched.

I did tell her this morning that I do not feel safe around her. So I hide my true thoughts and feelings. She did not show any interest in exploring that further. So it seems we are both willing to live a lie, and to allow the other to do so as well.

HOLD, curious, can you expand upon why you don't feel safe?

Also, with respect to your primary EN's, I know that SF was your number one EN. Where did FS (financial support) fall? Bear with me here as I think we may have some common ground and I'd like your input.

Recently, DW and I have taken two steps back and one step forward partly because I've found myself upset with her without consciously having a good reason for it - I've oftentimes been left feeling that I'm frustrated with our general financial circumstances and that I've been taking it out on my DW. After having done a fair amount of soul searching, I've come to the conclusion that I had misinterpreted one of the primary EN's when filling out the ENQ, that being FS - which in my case isn't Financial Support as it is explained in the description of the emotional need, at least not without looking under the covers and making some assumptions. For me it is Financial Security. That said, in all fairness to Harley the description does state that FS is one of the more difficult EN's to pin down, probably because it can change over time quite a bit based upon life circumstances and other criteria.

So, where I am in my thought process is that I now feel that one of my primary EN's is Financial Security, and that my DW is not anywhere close to meeting my EN for FS. I don't necessarily need my DW to go out and earn a living per se, as the description in the ENQ refers to, but what I do need is for us to live within our means and we are not currently doing that. Slowly over the last fifteen years, we have whittled down our short term savings in various accounts and products such that I have little short term savings left to speak of (very little - we'd be lucky to survive one month without my employment at this point). We also have more consumer debt now than we've had in a long time. I cannot blame my DW entirely for the debts as I was on an SSRI for about two years, and just went off in January, and during that time, in hindsight, I was not nearly as diligent about our finances as I have been in the past, I just didn't care about much of anything while on the SSRI. Now that I'm off of the SSRI, I care again, simply put.

What I'm wondering is, is FS as I define it a primary EN for you as well? It may not trump SF, but it's up there. Of course, we know Mrs HOLD's primary EN is FS in the traditional support sense (bringing in large amounts of dollars), and that you are not meeting her FS need sufficiently, regardless of whether we think her FS need may be irrational on some level.

The challenge as I see it, is how do spouses who have opposing EN's like this and cannot seem to find a lasting compromise stay in love? The lack of Financial Security for me due to consistent overspending makes serious withdrawals in my love bank (the fact that independent behavior on the part of DW is oftentimes used makes it worse for me - because I feel deceived - more lovebusting behavior here). The lack of sufficient Financial Support in the eyes of my DW results in love bank withdrawals for her. If I'm honest, for the most part we do not have O&H conversation when it comes to FS because of the collective pain surrounding the sensitive longstanding issue.

Currently we're somewhat at loggerheads on this issue, which isn't unusual, except the problem is, we moved into a larger home a few years back (something DW wanted), and part of our agreement was that she would need to work full time in order to pay for the additional household expenses (including the larger mortgage). DW worked full time up until last summer, when she lost her teaching position. We're getting unemployment for her, but that will end soon. At that point, we will be unable to make ends meet without serious spending concessions. Like you, I don't feel safe talking about this topic with DW because it's a sensitive area for us, yet I feel compelled to do something as I'm not the type of person to just ignore the problem and claim bankruptcy in a year or so when we can no longer keep afloat. DW has stated that she will not get another job, because it was too stressful on our family when we both worked outside the home full time, and I would agree with her assessment. Our family functions better with her at home. The problem is we cannot seem to live within our means without a second income.

Normally, the obvious solution would be, sell the bigger home and downsize. Can't do it. While we didn't but at the top of the market in Feb 2008, we bought while prices were still on the way down, we'd barely sell the house for what we owe on it, and we still own the house we moved out of because we couldn't sell it either (it is currently a rental and is paying for itself). Even if we moved back into our old home, we paid for the downpayment on the new home with equity in our old home, so our mortgage commitments wouldn't be much different big picture, not enough to justify going through all of the trouble. So, we cannot downsize our way out of this predicament.

HOLD, does any of this ring true for you? Any advice? I'm struggling to see a clear path forward and would appreciate your input. I can create a separate thread if that would work better, this post turned out much longer than I'd originally anticipated and I don't want to threadjack.

Of course she wasn't interested in talking about that.

I bet she'd perk up if you said "I don't feel safe bankrolling your life anymore."

But as long as that doesn't happen, she's good.

On my wife's side, there are two situations going on that rather parallel yours.

One is that her father, a roguish fun loving sort, died of cancer around seven years ago. Her mother, a dour woman who never worked a day in her life, latched on to her children as providers. She stayed with one son in his large home, where he had built an apartment for her, and she still refused to provide for herself in any way, though only in her early sixties. Her children now have to see to her needs.

While all of them hack it out in the corporate rat race, she stays home in comfort, drinking tea and enjoying life without a care in the world.

My wife resents the hell out of that.

And now the good son who provided the home for her is looking at a divorce. His wife never worked a day in her life, either. She spent her days, while he slaved at work, having lunch with friends, spending money, and basically living a beautiful life.
Apparently his wife met someone while out and about during the day.

The good son has two children (both of whom are taking all in stride), and he is looking at a financially devastating divorce.

One thing is for sure, the two carefree women will not so much as suffer missing even one mid afternoon luncheon.

While all of the others hash out a living, day to day, to pay for it all.

I was also wondering about this.


So, are you saying that your wife refuses to be accountable to you about her spending? And she knows that overspending is a painful concern to you, but she continues to do it anyway?

Hitchhiker: I sympathize with your situation. No fun when both spouses are unhappy with the family finances.

As for the pure financial picture, my suggestion is that if you aren't brave enough to have the conversation with your wife, then you need to get another job so you can afford the life your wife wants to live. Then the FS problem will go away. Of course, you will probably have a DS or FC or lack of UA time problem to address, but maybe you will find those topics easier to address with Radical Honesty.

As for how does a couple who fights over FS stay in love, surely you cannot expect me to have an answer to that. I can't even remember what it felt like to feel romantic love for my wife. Now, if you ask me how to keep the cold dark flame of frustration and resentment alive, THAT I can wax poetic on all day and night. But love? All I can do is refer you to that Tina Turner song from her Private Dancer album.

Why don't I feel safe, hmmm, let me see. Maybe because I keep getting kicked in the teeth whenever I am physically close to her? Forget 18 years of being rejected sexually. Now she won't even let me get near her. First I touch her hip and she screams she can't stand to be near me and jumps out of bed and runs away. Then the next night before I even get into bed she tells me to stay away and not get anywhere near her and give her space. Then the next night she says she is sorry for pushing me away, and she wants to make it up to me, so she will allow me to have my foot touch her foot. No, I can't imagine why I don't feel safe when I am near her.

And that is just the physical side. Mentally, I am disinclined to tell her the truth about how I feel, because she is so dismissive when I tell her I am unhappy. Her basic response is "you wouldn't be happy no matter what I do, so it doesn't matter whether or how I hurt you, because whether I treat you well or poorly you'll still be unhappy, so I might as well do what is easier for me and keep rejecting you."

I just had a thought.

It seems to me, there's a flaw in the whole EN thing, and that is that they are not "weighted" to each other.

For instance, providing financial security is extremely difficult to achieve; and is it fair to lay that squarely on the shoulders of one spouse? Is it fair for one spouse to say they require this to be content, yet not act in a manner to achieve it?

And take sexual fulfillment. Some might say it is a rather simple thing to proffer up for a total of 45 minutes a week. Surely easier than providing financial security.

But yet, these things are all treated as if they offset each other.