Good for you for checking. However, he will be triggered everytime he sees her, so you can't recover your marriage until one of them leaves that job. Fortunately for you, that will be happening soon.

That leaves the problem of his sloppy boundaries. It is obvious he has inappropriate boundaries around members of the opposite sex so this is likely to happen again unless and until he affair proofs your marriage. The folks that don't make an effort to recover by making a dramatic change in their behavior usually end up having several repeat affairs.


More importantly, did it wake up your husband? Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on his willingness and ability to make radical changes. His lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. He is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. Unless he makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a husband, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

p.s. In addition to having poor boundaries around women, your H jeopardized his career by getting too close to this woman. That is extremely risky and unprofessional. People ruin their careers that way and are often fired because most employers don't want to employ workplace cheaters because they are loose cannons.

That is a serious issue that needs to be addressed if you want to protect yourself in the future. Unless your H does change, he is a very loose cannon.

Something else to add: Due to the need for accountability, the difficulty has been how to discuss the OW since the plan my H and best friend made took effect. Her presence in his daily life makes me understandably uncomfortable, whether or not I have the "insurance" of all of his work friends knowing what transpired.

Another issue is that the OW has made a huge deal about not meeting me and avoiding me. I felt I needed to be more a part of H's life and have been making an effort to make an appearance at work from time to time. The first time was when she freaked and told their colleagues and complained to them about my "unfair accusations." The second time was for my H's office birthday party, but I was told she would be avoiding me and not to make things difficult for everyone (due to her possible drama) and not introduce myself. I am extremely uncomfortable with confrontations, so I ended up kind of hiding in one place so as not to come into contact with her. I was pretty upset, tried to get my H to empathize with me later, which he didn't deal with well, and things spiraled out of control for days after.

I understand why H felt burned by that incident. He doesn't trust my reactions and tries to avoid mentioning her at all costs. Since then we decided that it would be best for us both if I stay away from the office from now until the end. Although hearing about her and knowing she is interacting with my H, even within a group, bugs me terribly ... NOT knowing just makes me even more uncomfortable. I will be relieved when she is out of our life for good. I did tell H that although he still interacts with her for the sake of peace with his friends at work, after he leaves, I want there to be no further contact with her.

I should also add that I understand the risks and the mindset that led to the EA and how hard it is to "get over" the OP, because I now realize that I had an EA 16 yrs. ago when I was in college and my H (then fiance) and I were in different states. I have come clean with my H about that as part of our working through things.

It was important for me that he know that I wasn't condemning him for the EA because I had made the same mistake. We just approached things differently in terms of dishonesty. I thought that if I was honest with my H about how and when I was spending my time with the OM and didn't act on my feelings in a physical way, it was okay. I was being emotionally dishonest and lying not only to him but to myself as well with all kinds of rationalizations. We all make mistakes and we are all a work in progress. All we can do is keep trying to make things better.

I totally get what you are saying. He does realize his stupidity and unprofessional behavior. The possible trouble she could create for him at work was part of the reason that H and his best friend decided against total avoidance of the OW. Due to her tendency toward drama and attention seeking at work, H's best friend was concerned that totally shunning her at work would invite a sexual harassment accusation or who knows what else.

However, he is a very friendly person and does not avoid talking to other female colleagues about personal things. One colleague within this work group complains to him about her fiance. H's best friend doesn't have good boundaries either, so that doesn't help. The buddy group consists of 2 (sometimes 3) men and two women. The men are older and married, the women are unmarried. They all became very close, teasing and playing jokes on each other, hanging out to talk, etc.

I don't want to bring this up with H right at the moment, because it's opening up another can of worms and we have other issues we need to deal with first. Perhaps as he begins his next job I can address it then. I am also hoping as he reads and becomes familiar with more MB concepts, I will not have to work so hard to make him understand these things.

vlnist, I see an awful lot of conflict avoidance going on here that is going to lead to more conflict. The first is your H's continued contact with the OW at work in order to "keep the peace." That is insane. That is like playing chicken every day just to keep the peace because that is essentially what he is doing. That doesn't give *YOU*, the victim, any peace!! You must be living in total hell thinking about this every day.


And here is affair #2 waiting to happen. Your H is the drunk driver who goes to jail for drunk driving and gets out and does it again. He is doing the EXACT SAME THING that led to his last affair.


What other issue could even be 1/100th as critical as this to your marriage? What? Has your child died? Your mother gone to prison? What could possibly take precedence over the recovery of an affair to your marriage? Your approach is one of conflict avoidance which causes MORE conflict.

I would strongly urge you to get the book Surviving an Affair and read some of the articles here because I don't think you really understand what you are dealing with. Until the OW is removed and your H affair proofs your marriage, there is nothing to discuss. Everything else is a waste of time. It is window dressing on the sinking Titanic. And I don't say this lightly. I say this as someone who has been dealing with affairs here for 10 years and understands the danger you are facing. Your marriage is in big trouble.

Deal with the affair FIRST, vlnist23, or you won't have a marriage to save. How to Survive Infidelity

Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist with 40 years experience specializing in saving marriages from infidelity. He is very precise in the words he uses. Please read what he says in Requirements for Recovery:

here

Hello MelodyLane,

First, I appreciate your deep concern and effort to help me. Your post about complaints was just what I was looking for.

I have read HNHN, LB, and am now reading SAA. From Oct. through Dec. 2010 I read absolutely every single post at emotionalaffair.org, read Emotional Infidelity by Gary Neuman, NOT "Just Friends" by Sheila Glass, Playing the Lying Game by JD Scott, and many other websites, including this one.

If I had found the MB approach to dealing with an affair at the beginning, I could have followed Dr. Harley's plan. Instead I snooped on my H relentlessly, caught every lie, every text, every phone call, even his google searches on "when to divorce". I called his hand on all of it, and we went through a terrible time when he was fighting me and my restrictions.

She cut him off first in terms of contact outside work; he kept trying for a while but she wouldn't respond to his texts or emails. Their work environment is a collaborative group setting in which there would be no way to avoid her completely. I don't like that they have mutual friends, and spend more time in a group interacting than I would like, but being out of the job situation is the only solution, and we are moving toward that. My H is the sole breadwinner and I'm a SAHM. The mortgage and bills aren't going to pay themselves. He has been engaged in a very intensive job search for almost 2 months now with lots of rejections and only one phone interview. If he were to simply quit he would be giving up 2 months of full salary and 32 weeks of severance, plus fully paid health, dental, and life insurance benefits for a year after the official separation date.

Now that he has given up all one on one interactions with the OW it would be unfair of me to treat him as though the affair was newly discovered and he was still pursuing her. Will he have triggers that make things harder by seeing her at work? Certainly, and I will be tremendously relieved when his job comes to an end.

On the other hand, given the economy, how hard it is to find employment right now, and how slowly houses are selling, his job loss is a crisis for us in and of itself despite the fact that it does conveniently fulfill Dr. Harley's suggestion of finding a new job and moving to another state.

vlnist23, I am not suggesting at all that your H quit the job. Like you said, he will be out of there in 2 months anyway. But focusing on complaints in marriage is about like focusing on the peeling paint in the girls bathroom on the sinking Titanic. It is a distraction from the real problem.

The fact that your H has to work with the OW means your marriage cannot recover until he leaves that job. All that has happened here is that your H now calls his affair "business" contact. That is the equivalent of an alcoholic just changing the names of his drinks to "business drinks" and pretending he is sober. He will never sober up and never recover.

For him to continue to even engage her at work to "keep the peace" is outrageously disrespectful to you. It is bad enough that he won't be out of there in 2 months, but to rub salt into your wounds like this is going to fuel resentment for you that will make eventual recovery all the tougher. You HARM your marriage by going along with this. By going along with this abuse, you are greatly jeopardizing your mental health and your feelings for him. We have many people who suffer post traumatic stress disorder for years even in recovered marriages.

And you are headed to other affairs [if not a resumed affair with this same OW] until he makes dramatic changes in his risky behavior. He has not learned from his mistakes and there is no plan here to protect your marriage.

So, I do agree there is no reason he can't wait this out, but what then? What about recovery of your marriage? Having no plan is a plan to fail. So learning to communicate better will avail you nothing if you are divorced.


But you found MB now and can still insist on a plan of recovery. The fact that he would fight your efforts tells me he is very foggy and very wayward, vlnst. What is there to fight about? Was he fighting your request that he take steps to protect you?

What you describe above *IS* Dr Harley's plan. Dr Harley's plan is to continually snoop and confront your spouse every time. Are you still snooping? Are you still confronting him? Just because he fought you does not mean you STOP. You should never stop. Never.

vlnist23, I may be wrong, but from where I am sitting, it looks like YOU are the one doing most of the reading and learning about MB concepts. I may have missed it, but I didn't hear that he was doing a whole lot towards that.

Whether or not you recover from this affair is going to depend largely on the effort he makes. I see you are working hard, and we need to see him working hard, too. Given that he doesn't seem to agree with some core Marriage Builders concepts like radical honesty, there are some serious obstacles for him to overcome in his thinking.

Agree with Markos. Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on his willingness and ability to make radical changes. His lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. He is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe.

Unless he makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a husband, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage and will lead to more affairs.

The irony is that it is, in many ways, better now than it was before the EA. We both understand we have to prioritize our relationship and meeting each others' needs. You are right, he doesn't want to do the same amount of work as I do. I am dragging him along, but I have hope because he is at least open to learning. He doesn't read books or think deeply or analyze ANYTHING like I do, and this is no different. He prefers I do the digging and give him the Cliffs Notes version. This is just how he is, how he always has been, and I suspect how he always will be. I am not giving up on him, though, and he hasn't given up on me. Could things be better? Yes. Could he give more effort? Absolutely. I'm working with him as best I can given our circumstances. More later....

The quick answer is, yes and yes. However, I don't find anything.

What I mean about Dr. Harley's plan is that I didn't institute Plan A as described in the chapter about Sue and Jon - how most affairs end (NOT the ideal way). While I certainly confronted and stayed on top of things in terms of finding out everything I could about what was really going on, I did not avoid the LB and had many AO, DJ and SD in relation to what I found out, thus not doing much to avoid loss of LU in his LB and as a result comparing unfavorably to the OW. I did, however, try to meet his EN once I found out what he felt had been lacking in our marriage (my attention, mostly). The OW helped the situation by having her own AO and making SD and DJ, so my H realized that the fantasy of the EA was just that - a fantasy. He realized how much he would have to lose if he were to divorce me and continue to pursue her.

So now I think of myself as being in Plan A, the right way, trying to meet his EN and avoid LB. His EA is over, but yes, there is still contact with the OW at work. Dr. Harley recommends a rather long time limit before instituting Plan B and pulling out the big guns of separation. In this case, I don't feel Plan B is necessary because he will soon be changing jobs. Dr. Harley says that if there is still contact with the OW, say if complete avoidance due to work situations is impossible, more protective measures like a change of jobs and move to another state should be put in place. We are heading in that direction.

My H is falling back in love with me since I am meeting his EN and avoiding LB, restoring my balance in his LB. Once we are completely out of this situation, and he is more on board, I hope to convince him of the need for extraordinary precautions in his dealings with women in the future, to prevent this from ever happening again.

Yes, he recommends 3 to 4 weeks. Not really a long time, though. I can understand why you would wait the 2 months until he leaves that job, but there is absolutely no good reason for him to continue any contact with the OW and delay implementing extraordinary precautions. There is no reason to wait. It should be done NOW. Having no plan is a plan to fail.



Hope is not a plan. Actually, you have this backwards. The EPs' [extraordinary precautions] come FIRST - in order to restore the love in your marriage. His lack of EP's is a huge lovebuster that precludes building your lovebank. It is to be done BEFORE you agree to stay with him. It is not something you drag out. It is step #2, just behind the no contact rule.

Again, this is not a negotiable item. You don't have to convince him, you tell him what you will accept. If he won't affair proof your marriage, you are not going to recover and will be condemned to a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage.

Okay, MelodyLane, you have pulled out your proof that I should separate from my husband because he still sees the OW at work for the sake of maintaining his other friendships and not wait a few months from now when he is removed from the situation. The EA is over. I am in no danger of having a breakdown over this, I consider it an irritation more than anything.

I am not going to jeopardize his job hunt and my children's mental health over this. My son is already having enough problems knowing that we will be moving from all his friends, his school and the only home he has ever known. I am also not willing to put myself through that again. Oct.-Dec. were the worst months of my life and things are so much better now.

It is obvious that you have your own agenda and refuse to respect my own judgement as to what myself and my husband can and can't handle. It is obvious you think I'm stupid, lacking good judgement and woefully misguided. You can feel superior if you like. It's my life, my marriage, my husband, and my business.

Instead of answering my original question you took it upon yourself to pressure me to separate from my husband. You just don't mess with someone else's life like that, no matter how much you think you are right and I am wrong. I will not be back to this forum. I am sorry I asked my original question to begin with.

vlnst, you have misunderstood me. I agree that you shouldn't separate just because you have to endure 2 more months. I have told you that.

My point in posting this about Plan A was to show you that you should not be in Plan A anymore. Plan A is supposed to be very short lived. One sided giving will create resentment and tear you down emotionally.

What should be taking place now is RECOVERY, which includes affair proofing along with your H's committment to meet your needs. And that is my point. Without a plan for recovery, you won't recover.

THAT is my agenda.

Even though he has to work with the OW for 2 months, there is much he can be doing NOW to affair proof your marriage. He is not doing that.

Now that's what I call a DJ. ML was only trying to help you, not hurt you. Did you read the notice above these forums?

emphasis mine

We've seen this story unfold 100s of time and it generally turns out the same way. Contact (of any kind)= no recovery.

My goodness, vlnist, if you disagree you are certainly welcome to just say so. You are being very hostile towards someone who is only trying to help you, and one of the best Marriage Builders helpers we have here.

From what you've described, it doesn't sound to me like he feels that way.


This sounds to me like a sign that he has priorities higher than the relationship.


But he's refusing to accept principles that are designed to protect YOU, like radical honesty, so that doesn't sound to me like he is open to learning. It sounds closed off and selfish to me.


This also shows an unwillingness to learn.


This shows an unwillingness to work on his part, and a willingness to gain at your expense.

And even if it did not, the fact is that you CANNOT do this for him. There is no way that you can make up for shortcomings or a lack of effort on his part.