Well, what an interesting thread.

Cemar, you seem to think that your wife must desire you just because she is your wife. I wonder what you experienced before marriage, whether you were in love and passionatly involved sexually for a time, then got married when the spark was waning, (and maybe because she wanted to and needed more?).

The above is the common way two people fall in love,(Yeah passionatlly, with or without the Actual sex act), and move onto marriage.

Many do not plan, or they get pregnant,(Well I loved them anyways), and get married not realizing the deeper part of what has been going on for some time. They are in a stage of relationship called the honeymoon period, and unless you understand that and keep it going past the point of just being happy some one actually loves you too, it will wear off.

Everybody has been explaining the difference between a hormonal drive desire for sex, and the other parts that make up the sex drive. I don't think you understand those parts, and are thinking that all you you need for desire is to be there, in a vaccum. It takes both people being excited for maybe different, but equally valid reason, to achieve desire. Have you ever experienced a glow over your wifes face when something important to HER Ens was met? Her ENs, and probably everyone elses will be vastly different and run on a different schedule than yours, with different intensity also.

Learning about these is part of what you need to stay happily married. The more you work on there needs, the more they will care about yours. Like I said before, most people think that they fall in love and they will never change, opposed to the common statement that men do not change but women do, I say they both change. Its common that if you don't spend time together examining what each other needs, you will percieve that the BASIC needs, which will be evident because nobody will stay with someone who at least provides those, are the only ones you see.

So, you think they will allways stay the same, men,(commonly), have a higher sex drive than women at the outset and it ussually stays longer,( plus it means so much more to men as an act, proof, security), that women who just perform the basic act even begrudgedly feel that thats all men care about.
Women, (again generally), are more concerned with everything. Enviroment, children, multitasking,(They have a built in superhighway in their brain for relationships, even if it is with a toaster), that a man not paying attention can miss that it isn't that she doesn't care anymore, its that she cares about so much, and he doesn't see any of it. If she is left to doing everything with little care from the man about what she is doing or why, its no wonder she gives up sex reluctantly, and with little passion.

Also this is why men many times feel they are tricked into marriage, and the love is gone, because thier wife changes. Those men just wern't ready to accept that life changes, and becomes more than all about them. Before the children most women fawn over thier men, and when the children come that attention goes to the children. Women more naturally serve than men do. Men ussually want to run the show, but many are not equipped to understand what that means, although before they get married thier wife supports them every way possible, and hope and/or believe the man will understand the changes, when they come. Of course the man believes he will. But many times it is assumed they both know what is coming, and they don't plan. Part of that is because of being in love, they just can't believe things will ever change.

So Cemar, what marriage builders does, and Dr H, teaches, is get you back to the basics of reletionships that you might have not understood, or ignored when you first fell in love. If you are going to have a lifelong marriage you have to grow up and realize there is more to it than what you get, it is also about what you give, and your attitude about giving. If you want to live in the up and down hot and cold land of disillusionment, and unrealistic expectations. You are better off dating. Which is going nowhere fast, and ussually leaves you empty in the end.

The unwritten rule about dating is it is supposed to go somewhere, and eventually turn into a deeper more mature relationship, which involves everything Dr H. talks about and teachs.

If you want to adjust and live in Gods world which is about being strong enough to give, and what can/should expect in return, you have to listen to what God tells you also. Its his institution, let Him be in charge, and listen to the folks who know what it takes. Its not only the easiest way, its the only way. You know what I am saying about God speaking right? Like when he does when you stick your hand in a light socket. You might not recognize that it was God talking, and relegated the result to an explanation of electrons and magnatism, but the fact remains you listened, and even if you were to uneducated to understand electricity, you would not do that again.

I bet you would listen to someone who told you how to avoid that pain. Why not give Dr. H a try. Stop trying to think and talk your way around it, take your hand out of the socket.

So am I to assume that what I said got through to you cemar? Glad I could help, and I am surprised that you are such a willing and able listener, to your credit.

Thats funny, because that is the only thing I would want, someone who was out to please me and gets off doing it.

ConstantProcess:

Thanks for the advice. So how does the man learn to live in a romantic love marriage rather then the preferable passionate marriage? I will give you an example: Yesterday, I gave my wife oral sex, when she was done, she then asked if I needed to be taken care of (meaning regular sex for me). I turned her down. I find it hard to comprehend having sex FOR someone. I have NEVER done that. When I perform oral sex on someone, it is because I LOVE to. I found it INSULTING to me that I have to be "taken care of". Literally, she got NEGATIVE LB points from her actions. How is a man supposed to be happy when he never feels desire from his spouse? "Mature" relationships really don't fill male needs, they are geared to the LD partner. It's like us HD peope just have to go withhout.

So, let me get this straight. You gave your wife pleasure, and afterwards, she offered to give you pleasure, and you found that insulting?

Why?

Cemar,

The situation you just described is rather interesting.

So, you derive pleasure from... what? Is it from pleasing your spouse? THAT is how you "have sex FOR someone." Pleasing them pleases you. For some, that pleasure may not be of a sexual nature.

Giving this gift to someone is a gift of love and care - it is PART OF A ROMANTIC MARRIAGE. It is passion.


HOW did you turn her down? Flatly? What words did you use? What was your body language? Tone of voice?

Or, did you possibly tell her "Pleasing you takes care of me, your happiness was my goal."

If you don't communicate that, then what you have is a woman who had a need met, and as a natural consequence, felt a desire to meet your need.

It was your disrespectful judgment of her offer to reciprocate that turned it into an LB.

writer1:

It is defintely insulting when you have heard it 1000 times. The goal here is NOT the sex, the goal is to show that you love AND desire yor spouse. Clearly, she was NOT desiring the sex, even though I had arroused here already. If she was INTO IT, she would have rolled over and gave ME great head. No, I get to be "taken care" of. Makes me feel like some kind of burden. You have sex because you LOVE to have sex. Just going through the mechanics of sex does NOT meet male needs. I have had sex like this many a time, and she does enough to get me off, and then we are done. How about showing REAL love for sex with your spouse, rather than making your spouse feel like they are a chore.

Well, you said your wife was already "taken care of" by which I assumed you meant that she had already reached orgasm. For most women, after reaching orgasm, their physical desire is going to go down (at least temporarily) just as it does for men, since that physical need has already been satisfied. That doesn't mean that she wouldn't be capable of satisfying you, but it probably does mean that her own physical desire may not be very strong at that moment.

If you wanted oral sex from your wife in return, did you ask for it? Or did you just expect her to read your mind and instinctively "know" what you wanted her to do. Women aren't mind readers. If you have a need or a desire, you need to make it known to your wife if you would like her to fulfill it. If you didn't make the need known, then it's your own fault that it didn't get met, not hers.

ConstantProcess:

It is hard to explain. **edit** . I touch my wife ALL over her body, I am FASCINATED with her body, I get turned on by turning HER own. NONE of this is returned. She is not physical with me. **edit** Sometimes I would love to cuddel for awhile and then go again, but she seems more desirous of SLEEP than sex. Seems weird to me.

I was going to make a snarky remark in response to your remark about "mature" relationships....and then I read your most recent post above......and I just couldn't. Sometimes you say stuff that make me want to whop you on the head. But I could read the hurt and loneliness in this post.....I know how that feels.

But feeding your own anger and resentment, assuming that she doesn't desire you just because she says it awkawrdly, etc. won't fix it. I don't exactly know what will......but I know that won't. Not because she is a woman, but because someone who is LD cannot wrap their brains around why wanting to have SF in the same way you want to breathe is such a big deal.....just like HD people cannot wrap our minds around why ANYONE would marry someone when SF is just some thing they could take or leave.

But I do know that my DH is more likely to desire me when I focus on what makes me desirable to him....it doesn't always work. Sometimes it doesn't work for a very very long time. But when I was snotty and angry about it it worked even less.

You didn't verbalize, so that LB turned inward. If you did verbalize, then you LB your W.

Assuming how your wife should feel, think, or act is a fail/fail attitude.

Cemar, I know what your struggling with, but I have to think a little bit on how to relate it to you with a possible solution.

Kinda reminds me of that old Cheap trick song, "Want you to want me"

From what I understand you want her to want to make love, but see her as only just willing to go though the motions?

get back to you later..

Good thing Marriage Builders teaches against the "mature" relationship idea.


Then go without, and stop bothering the rest of us about it. There's free help here you obviously aren't willing to use.

I'm done.

What does it take to turn your wife on? Would it surprize you if were not just you and the concept of having sex with you? If she doesn't want sex with anyone else, and was never passioante about sex before, then it might be LD.

But if she used to want to have sex and please you before with a passion, then where did it go? What ENs were you filling before this went away? Was it the promise of things to come,( no pun intended), that aroused her before? Don't be surprised where sex-drive comes from, many things arouse that part of the brain. Maybe it was the home and children that got her dreaming and hoping and aroused.

what I am pointing to of course, is that if there are needs only you can fufill for her emotionally, and you make her happy with those, then it will be exciting to reciprocate, but you have to fill those needs first, even if you don't have them yourself.

If she says she needs you to take her out to dinner once a week to feel good, and you do it with a good attitude and willingly, even if you think its dumb persoannly, and makes no sense to you, who cares, it makes her happy. Whats wrong with that, that you do something that fills a need for your wife? You don't have to understand it or why, just that it makes her happy. Do it and be happy you are making her happy.

The same might come back to you in the bedroom, and she will feel the same way, being happy to make you happy.

Like its been said allready, its not the action of sex its the attitude that is bothering you. Study her and find out what blows her skirt up,(figurativly), and let it rip. Its rarely ever sex for sexs sake alone, even with men, but more so with women, there are a lot of ENs being served behind the surface act of sex.

If you find what pleases her, and provide it,(if its possible), she will be dieing to please you back, if thats what you want.

Kinda along the lines of what others are asking you...

Has your sex life with your wife always been this way? Or did you at one point have this sex life that you describe wanting and it's not that way anymore?

If you married her knowing that your sexlife was this way, I don't know what you expect.

If you married her and then the sexlife changed, what are you doing/not doing differently now that you weren't back then?

And how did you respond to her when she asked you if you wanted to be taken care of? Did you say, "I'd love it if you went down on me." Or "I'd really love it if..." Or did you just tell her "no, nevermind then."

You don't by any chance buy into the stories and lies that other guys tell and sell that are single do you? Or the lies on the porn sites of women who really want you.

The guys are ussually full of it and the girls are just animals, or vise-versa, or both.

Do you really want that in your marriage? Sex for sexs sake alone?

Would you be happy if she was a call girl but had sex whenever you wanted it? I know of guys who let thier wives strip at clubs, they don't seem to mind but I can't imagine that.

I have allways felt there was a deeper part of a relationship being met in both parties during intercourse, and I think that is what is really bothering you, its the wanting you are missing.

Can you get Her to fill out an ENQ, and start spending time exploring her needs, all of them? I think it will get you what your really looking for, for both of you.

kilted_thrower:

For the first 4 years I knew my wife, we had sex everyday, and she sleept nude every night with me. At that point, my wife became pregnant with the first son, and things completely changed and have only gotten worse. She had a hard pregnancy, she develope a hypoactive thyroid, and she developed a huge body image issue. This would be in addition to the love chemicals wearing off, and over the last 22 years, she has lost much of her testosterone, and now she has gone through menopause. Why do we assume that women lose desire becasue their needs are not met. From what I see, chemicals play a far BIGGER role than anything else when it comes to desire. My wife admits that she has no desire for sex in general. She could go the rest of her life without it. She has it FOR me, which kind of ruins it for me.

None of this is her fault. None of it. She cannot control her thyroid, she cannot control loss of hormones, she cannot control menopause. She could maybe control the body image issue - but working on that myself right now, it is a huge steep intimidating hill.

She cannot control this.

You are upset and angry at her for things that are beyond her control. You are blaming her for a low sex drive when it isn't her fault.

How would you like it if she said you were a failure as a man because of your high drive. It makes her life miserable and hurts her constantly and you just have some issues to work out because obviously there is something wrong with you.

That doesn't feel very good does it?


Because for MANY women, the sex drive is only one in a host of factors about why a woman will have sex. Unlike you - who's sex drive is driven almost exclusively by hormones, most women don't have sex because they are driven to by hormones. They do so as an act of love to connect with someone the care about, someone they believe cares about them.

Your wife likely does NOT see sex the way you do.


Desire that is fueled by purely chemical reactions in the brain over which your wife has no control - yes. But a woman's sexuality is MUCH more complex than that. It has deeply seated emotional roots as well.

THIS is why I say I desire my husband. Physically, chemically there is no low drive - emotionally I yearn to connect with him physically. I ache to hold and love him.

(ETA: I don't want to give the impression I have no drive - because I do have a sex drive, it just always has been and probably always will be lower than my husbands)


Of course she doesn't - various factors outside of her control have completely shut down her hormonal drive for sex and her husband is refusing to meet her needs shutting down her emotional drive for sex.

I could live the rest of my life without sex. Did just fine without it for a period of time while I was single. It didn't get difficult until I met a man who started meeting my needs in spades.

What we are trying to tell you is that MOST women in love with their husbands DESIRE SEX with those husbands. The act of meeting needs is what CREATES the desire for the husband when the hormones can't do it alone.

I do not have pity sex with my husband, I do not have sex FOR him, it is not treated as a chore. I am a laughing, passionate willing sex partner. I'm even agressive and dominant at times. It is not empty going through the motions sex. It is sex borne out of a deep love and desire for my husband - to please him and in return I get a deep, satisfying pleasure that is often MORE satisfying than an orgasm. I have spent time doing nothing but pleasing my husband, receiving no reciprocity because I desire none - the act of pleasuring him is more than enough.

This is DESPITE not having a strong hormonal, chemical drive for sex.

This action - this DESIRE is all created by a knowledge that he loves and cherishes me, that he consistently shows his love and care by meeting my needs. NOTHING is more attractive to me than that. NOTHING.

DH could look like Brad Pitt circa 2000 and if he willingly withheld the admiration I craved and considered me a failure, turning down any attempt I made to reach out to him because it wasn't good enough - you can be sure my desire to have sex with him would be zilch. I'd fall back on the excuse of nursing, difficulties from pregnancy, exhaustion from managing a household and chasing a toddler. Those excuses are an easy blanket to wrap around myself when my husband has proved he has no desire in keeping me warm.

But I have made passionate, caring love to men that you wouldn't look at twice. Geeky, awkward, overweight - you name it. And I meant it - all because they met the right needs and I loved them.

You ask how is Phase 2 achieved - the recreation of desire in a wife for her husband?

It is achieved by that husband meeting her needs and a wife realizing that she wants to meet his. It is created by the deep satisfaction and security that consistent need building creates.



Of course right now she is having it for you - because you are unlikable to her. Start meeting her needs and I bet she will stop having it FOR you and start having it because she WANTS to make love to you.

I see it as a good sign that she still tries to have it for you - it indicates that she recognizes that it is important to you and she has some fundamental desire to meet your needs.

I see it as a good sign that she once had an active, passionate love life with you.

If you had it once, you can have it again.

These are all indicators that the problem is less her physical, chemical deficiencies and more a matter of the fact that you aren't likable to her, and she see's no benefit to overcoming these challenges.

If you became the man you were 22 years ago I bet you would see results.

I can't add anything to what Vibrissa said except a

Cemar, men and women are different. They just are. And until you understand that, you are just going to keep running around in circles and everyone else is just going to keep trying to explain it to you.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_differences.html