I'm asking. Because Dr H has also said that the WW's leaving and choosing divorce are not the ones who are abuse or betrayed. He says he can't get those women to choose to leave their abusive husbands.

So he says these women are neglected.

I said I believe most WW's have already shut out their husbands, long before they physically leave, force out their BH's or start their affairs.

If I'm wrong, Dr H can tell us all. I can take it, I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong at least once more in my life, if even about being wrong about something, LOL.

We already know that plan A is prescribed for differing times for BH's and BW's. We know the typical EN's are different. We know that 2/3rds of all divorces are filed by women and I believe I understand Dr H to tell us that the majority of these women are not leaving an abusive or unfaithful husband.

So wouldn't it stand to reason that there are differences in the plan and it's effectiveness when faced with a WW vs a WH?

Given the general differences as well as the general outcomes, it stands to reason that the typical BH will have far harder road to hoe than the typical BW?

Again, Dr H is welcome to visit and tell me I'm wrong, provide specific numeric details of the relative success rates, etc, and I'll re-examine my views.

But so far, he's not come on here and said I'm all wrong, I don't know what I'm talking about, and so forth.

But let me throw this little nugget out there.

What has Dr H said he would do if Joyce were to betray him. Would he try to win her back? He says no.

Is that due to his personality, or having witnessed the plans being executed thousands of times and wanting no part of it?

To add to the above:

Plan A as Dr Harley envisages it would have included exposing the affair. Experience here shows that this can be effective in ending the affair if done early. If done after a long period while the couple has lived apart, then friends and family might feel that finding a new partner whilst separated is no crime. They might buy the WW's argument that the marriage was effectively dead when she left - or that she found her AP AFTER she left.

If you had exposed when people on the board told you to snoop and find the dirt, your wife would not have been able to play the tricks she successfully played on you. We cannot say that your marriage would have been restored, but it certainly stood no chance of being restored if you did not directly fight the affair. Endlessly meeting her ENS only led to cake eating, and to your eventually losing out to a determined OM who knew what he was fighting. Dr Harley actually warns about the cake-eating part of Plan A, and warns that it should not be done indefinitely. It should not be used to help entrench and embed an affair.

I'm so sorry that you lost your son, EE. I would NEVER describe that as a successful outcome of any plan. However, I don't think you did Plan A, or that Plan A is what Steve Harley was coaching you on (since he accepted your denial of an affair). I agree that he SHOULD have coached you on Plan A, and I agree that you were royally misled and shafted by your wife - but I don't see where Plan A is to blame for your loss.

Again, I am terribly sorry for your loss.

We live in a fallen world...there are an endless supply of guys ***EDIT*** who will steal someone's wife AND someone's children using the legal system to their fullest advantage. ***EDIT***


Hope&pray used MB, tried to save his marriage and ended up winning full custody of his 18 month old child. Wife moved out of state to live with OM (who was a physician as I recall) and WELL AFTER the divorce called him up to come save her. He did...stealing his wife back in the middle of the night. OM tried to hire a hitman to kill Hope&pray and ended up in jail.


Eph425's stay at home wife tried to steal his kids by absconding them away over the Christmas holiday's 4 or 5 years ago. The judge saw it as alienation and ordered them back home. WW ended up in the hospital due to eating disorder and Eph eventually won primary custody of his kids. 4 years later...WW takes off to Europe for 8 months.


SickofLimbo's legal case for custody of any kind was VERY weak when he got here. He was just back from being deployed and had to do several months of training out of state. Over the course of attempting to save his marriage he was actually buying time to establish himself as a VERY involved parent and one entitled to, at least, a 50-50 custody arrangement. Kick her to the curb advice would have been disasterous for sick of limbo.

On the other hand...Heartsore could have obtained a 50-50ish custody deal if he'd have settled up front. Instead, he fought to save his marriage and got screwed. Wife moved with OM and the kids 50 miles away making visitation much
more difficult. Talking to Heartsore within the last year...he's remarried with a new child and as happy as he can be with the outcome. I asked him specifically if he regretted trying and he said "no...100% no".

Mr. Wondering

He was coaching me in plan A, as she was moving out, getting an apartment, trying to find herself. So while the affair was not known, the plan was plan A. If nothing more than to convince her to either not move out and to convince her to return home once she did move out.

It took from 9/03 until near Thanksgiving to figure out she was having an affair. By then, she was moved out, child in her apartment. Immediate nuclear exposure, cut off all access to joint accounts, no longer financing the affair, etc.

I was duped and at that point, I didn't trust anyone, felt betrayed that I was trying to fix all my stuff, operating on the assumption I was a bad husband, controlling, etc.

Nope, it was all a smoke-screen. She was controlling the scenario so she could continue to have her affair.

I paid child support, nothing more, still trying to meet needs, but not finance the affair, no dice. Ran out of money to get coached by Steve Harley as she filed for divorce and I had to pay a retainer, and $175/hour for his time, etc.

After about 9 months after she said she was moving out, and 7 months post D-day, I said I was done. I had said what she would have to do to return, we were only communicating via lawyers at this point anyway, so I really saw no need for a plan B letter that said what I had already told her verbally.

So just a wasted 7-9 months in my opinion.

I never blamed plan A for my loss. I simply said it was largely a waste of time and resources.

The explanation I've generally seen for this is that Dr. Harley is already implementing MB principles in his marriage. He is meeting his wife's EN's, practicing the policies of RO, POJA, taking extraordinary precautions, etc. If his wife were to have an A in spite of all of this, there likely wouldn't be much he could do, since he's already doing everything.

I would venture to say that most people who find themselves affected by an A cannot say this. Very few of us even knew about MB or Dr. Harley's principles prior to an A. This is probably true for both betrayed and wayward spouses. Since we didn't know about the principles, we obviously weren't practicing them. Most of us (BS's and WS's alike) made mistakes in our relationships that made our marriages vulnerable to an A.

Thanks for this, kiddo.

EE, I have heard Dr Harley say that there are differences in the affair of a WW and a WH, that WW's affairs are harder to break because they are more entrenched, and that this is why he recommends "quite a bit of time" longer for a BH to use Plan A. (He has also cited the physical and emotional breakdown that BW's often go through.)

I have heard him say words to effect that the BH will have a harder road to hoe than a BW. As I understand him, you are correct in your reading.

But you didn't do Plan A, as far as I can see, and I don't think it fair on other BH's - or to Dr Harley - for you to cite your experience on threads discussing it.

Then why did Steve H call it plan A? Why did he have me on a plan to meet need, eliminate LB's and get her to the phone to talk.

I believe he was presenting plan A, or at least the portions of it that are not specific to affairs. I.E. meeting needs, eliminating LB and engaging in a plan to restore romantic love?

And once I knew of the affair, I exposed, just short of a billboard outside her apartment. Her family knew, my family knew, the OM's wife knew, her workplace knew (she had to work now that she was out of the marital home) the pre-school knew when they commented on how our daughter was acting strangely. "Her mom is having an affair, she moved out and has created a lot of drama in our girl's life with her choices."

You know, stuff like that.

Even his employer and alumni association were informed of the affair.

Can't say I didn't try plan A.

I sought to meet needs, eliminate LB's and exposed the affair.

Unless I'm missing something, that's plan A.

I apologise for misrepresenting your argument.

However, I don't think you did Plan A.

Really, you read the above and still don't call what I did plan A.

Then what was it I was doing for those 7-9 months?

Now this is becoming about me, and I really don't want this to be about me, so I'll start another thread and if y'all want to discuss my life from 9/13/03 to January 2006 when the divorce was final, then we can do that.

If you want to talk about me and my questions, take it here:

How to plan A a WW or WAW

I just read some of your first posts on MB and boy did this forum SUCK back then.

Nobody would accept your conclusion that "I asked her and she said she wasn't having an affair and I'd be able to tell if she were lying"

I can't believe it took from early Sept. until November for you to figure it out.

Your posts on the prayer forum are heartbreaking (though you may want to go back and have first names removed).

I take it hard when I post advice and miss something or fail to properly advise someone correctly. It's a tough business COACHING people as it's a lot more responsibility than merely "counseling" (whereupon you try to draw out of a person their own conclusions and decision of what they ought to and want to do).


Your experience is yours and your perspective is valuable here. I asked Heartsore about regrets because I was upset over feeling like I failed him. It was important to me that he didn't feel like I made things worse for him as I spent a lot of time and effort trying to help. I've gotten much more used to "failure" here and much more aware of, as you say, likely outcomes...divorce.

Oh yeah...another difference btwn men and women. I think that it's harder to get a ww to end her affair than a wh but, if you do, a ww is more likely to do the MB work necessary to earn her "f" and commit to a full recovery than a WH who more often just want to bury it under a rug. I think one of the important goals of MB is not just to end affair and recover marriage but instead see that recovered marriage become part of the 33% or so subset of marriages that are marriages of love and extraordinary care.

In the end...15%, 20%, 10%...either way...either percentage...there IS a chance any betrayed spouse can and will save their marriage and by using MB they hopefully have a better shot at doing so and when they do they have a better shot of making it a wonderful marriage. I think if you run around and try to find another plan or tweak the plan to make the 15%, 20% or 10% figure higher...you're just giving up the end result. Only certain WS's have the inclination and ability to make it to a fully recovered marriage of extraordinary care and we can't predict or know before hand which wayward spouses are in that category.

[in other words...some "plans" suggest the betrayed spouse date others in an attempt to get the wayward spouse to wake up and come back to the marriage...to me...the "solution" of more adultery only makes matters worse...maybe...MAYBE in some situations it would work better (or just faster) than Plan A and Plan B but at what costs to the betrayed spouses integrity and very soul not to mention their chances at a true recovery (where they BOTH have to clear their wayward entitled foggy butt brains)]


Mr. Wondering

Nope, they dont' interpret any such thing on this board. If they do, they are soundly rebuked. By board members and by Dr Harley on the radio. WE tell them:

1. don't leave the home

2. don't let her take the kids without a court order

3. file for divorce on grounds of adultery if she won't stop

4. expose the affair wide and far

5. DEMAND - yes, I said DEMAND, which is Dr Harley's EXACT WORD - that she end her affair

6. confront the OM and tell him to buzz off

So no, the only misinterpretation is on your part, EE. You apparently haven't been reading this board and don't know what goes on.

answered on the new thread so we don't keep making this about me...

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2491069#Post2491069

They can and do protect their families by filing for divorce and getting custody of their children. Many here have done that at our recommendation. While only 15% of affairs end in PLAN A, many more than that end in Plan B. [I don't have the statistic] Most marriages do not end over affairs - 65% stay together. So it is a mistake to assume that only 15% reconcile, 15% is simply the # of affairs that end in PLAN A.

And in Plan A, most BS's cannot meet their spouses needs anyway. The point of Plan A is to pledge to meet the WS's emotional needs in the FUTURE if they end the affair.

EE, I am catching up on your posts, but you have a very foreign view of Plan A that we don't have on this board. We bust up about 2 to 3 affairs a month using these techniques. And when a WW doesn't end her affair, we tell the BH to open up a can of Texas whoop [censored] on his WW and file for divorce on grounds of adultery.

If I were going to give an anecdotal answer to this, based on what I have seen on this board, I would place it at about 50% too. This would apply to both WW's and WH's. In fact, the WW count seems to be a little higher. When a BH stands up for his marriage like this, it is very appealing to the WW.

What you did is nothing like how we recommend Plan A over here on this board. It is completely different from anything I have ever seen over here or even from Dr Harley.